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Thread: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

  1. #106

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You keep saying the particular tribes mentioned are less relevant. STOP! The particular tribes mentioned ARE relevant. ENTIRELY relevant. Those mentioned did NOT represent the entire area originally possessed by the 12 tribes of Israel.

    Let me help you.
    There are 11 tribes which were given land, which represent the ENTIRE area promised and possessed.
    There is one tribe which was not.
    1 of the 11 tribes was that of Joseph and so his two sons were both given land, and so are half-tribes.
    Dan is missing from the list and so the entire area is NOT in view.
    I am not sure there is any point debating anything beyond this, UNTIL you recognise the simple FACT that the 12 in Rev 7 are NOT representative of the entire area of land.

    Now once you take that in, meditate on it and consider it properly, then your entire assumption is seen as wrong. It is a single change, but it is at a fundamental level of your understanding.
    Sorry, I completely disagree with you. The *only relevance* of mentioning the 12 tribes--in whatever order--is that they originally encompassed the entire land of Israel. The fact Joseph replaced Ephraim is incidental. Joseph=Ephraim. The fact Dan is gone is incidental, as well. Dan actually migrated, to some degree, to the far north, to someone else's tribal inheritance, as that tribe established idol worship there.

    The fact you don't see the significance of the omission of Dan and Ephraim is telling to me. Either you don't see it, or you choose to bypass it? These were tribes that were responsible, in the ancient past, for establishing alternative worship in the Northern Kingdom. It was idol worship. The future land of Israel will not have idolatry in it. That appears to be the symbolic meaning.

    We are clearly talking about *land inheritance.* This is the only time in history that the 12 tribes of Israel had boundaries and significance as such. It preceded the monarchy, which would've united all of the tribes under a single national boundary.

    Go ahead and blow smoke. I can take it.

  2. #107
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sorry, I completely disagree with you. The *only relevance* of mentioning the 12 tribes--in whatever order--is that they originally encompassed the entire land of Israel. The fact Joseph replaced Ephraim is incidental. Joseph=Ephraim. The fact Dan is gone is incidental, as well. Dan actually migrated, to some degree, to the far north, to someone else's tribal inheritance, as that tribe established idol worship there.
    Wow!! You totally ignored the point I just made.
    Firstly the 12 tribes are NOT mentioned in FULL in Rev 7. there is NO mention of Dan.
    Get that right and you will then realise you are wrong.

    Further it is a FALSE claim that the "only" relevance is that they encompass the entire land of Israel.
    It is a POSSIBLE reason, but not the ONLY one.

    The fact you don't see the significance of the omission of Dan and Ephraim is telling to me. Either you don't see it, or you choose to bypass it? These were tribes that were responsible, in the ancient past, for establishing alternative worship in the Northern Kingdom. It was idol worship. The future land of Israel will not have idolatry in it. That appears to be the symbolic meaning.
    Actually Ephraim is included, as Joseph.
    I do see the significance, but I also read the whole Bible:
    Ezekiel 48:1 “These are the names of the tribes: Beginning at the northern extreme, beside the way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, as far as Hazar-enan (which is on the northern border of Damascus over against Hamath), and extending from the east side to the west, Dan, one portion. Adjoining the territory of Dan, from the east side to the west, Asher, one portion.

    Here, again when speaking of the FUTURE kingdom, when the River of Life flows out from the temple, we find Dan DOES have its land inheritance.
    So when we speak of the Land inheritance Dan is included and Levi is not.
    This PROVES that Rev 7 is NOT about land inheritance.
    However your point about Dan (and to a lesser extent Ephraim) had idol worship (along with the other tribes), is what the 144k is about. They are virgins, which means they do NOT worship idols.
    So your entire thrust about land is wrong, and the focus is on worshipping God alone.
    Read Rev 14 in conjunction with this and it should clear things up.

    We are clearly talking about *land inheritance.* This is the only time in history that the 12 tribes of Israel had boundaries and significance as such. It preceded the monarchy, which would've united all of the tribes under a single national boundary.
    Yet again wrong. the tribes had there boundaries throughout history.
    Using your USA example, does the USA still have States? Do they have their own boundaries where they have their own jurisdiction? Have those boundaries disappeared simply because you have one President. You are definitely smoking something if you think tribal distinctions, land boundaries etc just disappear because there is one king.

    In summary, the 144k and the 12 tribes is NOT about land or its inheritance, but about true Israel who worship God alone, these are those Jesus declared would say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord". they will herald His return.

  3. #108

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wow!! You totally ignored the point I just made.
    Firstly the 12 tribes are NOT mentioned in FULL in Rev 7. there is NO mention of Dan.
    Get that right and you will then realise you are wrong.
    On the contrary, I got your point. You just don't seem to get mine. No matter what order of tribes, and no matter what tribes are listed, they *represent* all 12 original tribal inheritances! The order and the names listed are *incidental* to this! They just show God's distaste for the failures of Dan and Ephraim, which included cities of idol worship in the Northern Kingdom.

    If I get any more "Wow's" from you, I'm going to classify my posts a "drug!"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Further it is a FALSE claim that the "only" relevance is that they encompass the entire land of Israel.
    It is a POSSIBLE reason, but not the ONLY one.
    I'm giving you my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Actually Ephraim is included, as Joseph.
    I do see the significance, but I also read the whole Bible:
    Ezekiel 48:1 “These are the names of the tribes: Beginning at the northern extreme, beside the way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, as far as Hazar-enan (which is on the northern border of Damascus over against Hamath), and extending from the east side to the west, Dan, one portion. Adjoining the territory of Dan, from the east side to the west, Asher, one portion.

    Here, again when speaking of the FUTURE kingdom, when the River of Life flows out from the temple, we find Dan DOES have its land inheritance.
    So when we speak of the Land inheritance Dan is included and Levi is not.
    This PROVES that Rev 7 is NOT about land inheritance.
    However your point about Dan (and to a lesser extent Ephraim) had idol worship (along with the other tribes), is what the 144k is about. They are virgins, which means they do NOT worship idols.
    So your entire thrust about land is wrong, and the focus is on worshipping God alone.
    Read Rev 14 in conjunction with this and it should clear things up.
    The absence of Dan and Ephraim explains in what way the 144,000 are "virgins." They are virgins in the spiritual sense of avoiding idolatry. They've kept themselves pure for marriage to the Lamb.

    The Ezekiel passage indicates similar things, but is focused on its own time period. In that time period Israel was still under the Law. Hence, language of the temple is used for two purposes. One, it was to speak to Ezekiel's time and worship. And two, it spoke of Israel's eschatological hope and final land inheritance.

    These things are therefore in our time figurative symbols of Israel's future in the NT era, at the coming of Christ. Temple worship will not, I think, be restored. But Israel will indeed have an eternal land inheritance. It just won't involve 12 tribes anymore. They are gone forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Yet again wrong. the tribes had there boundaries throughout history.
    Using your USA example, does the USA still have States? Do they have their own boundaries where they have their own jurisdiction? Have those boundaries disappeared simply because you have one President. You are definitely smoking something if you think tribal distinctions, land boundaries etc just disappear because there is one king.
    No, I don't smoke anymore. I agree that the US has both a federal and a state system. However, I do not find the ethnicity of any one state remaining its own ethnicity. In a state like Utah you may find lots of Mormons. But there is a lot of migration between states because we have *a federal system!*

    The same would've been true of the 12 tribes once Israel developed a monarchy. There would be intermarriage, and migration. Certainly there would be a more stable ethnicity per tribal area because of what you said about the law of jubilee, land inheritances, etc.

    However, as you know, the conditions constantly shifted in Israel through the centuries. The tribes were diminished, and eventually we only had two kingdoms, north and south. The regional ethnicities I'm sure still existed. But certainly there were no more real boundaries. At least I don't see evidence of them?

    But after the captivities, only Judah and Benjamin return as tribal peoples--not boundaries, but tribal ethnicities. And they merged, generally, although I'm sure the priesthood and the royal line had their genealogies preserved.

    By the time of Christ all we have are "Jews," with a few people knowing "where they came from," or what their tribe was. This is not an established ethnicity by which 12 individual tribes may be formed once again 2000 years later!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    In summary, the 144k and the 12 tribes is NOT about land or its inheritance, but about true Israel who worship God alone, these are those Jesus declared would say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord". they will herald His return.
    I agree they are Christians. But they seem to refer to Jewish believers, though not distinct tribal divisions. The mention of the 12 tribes obviously represent the entire land area of Israel, once inherited by the 12 original tribes. The omission of some tribal names makes sense to me, but does not alter the point that the Jewish People will inherit all of their land. And that's because the Jewish People *are* the descendants of the original 12 tribes--including Dan and Ephraim! The tribal lands mentioned would of course include their original territories as well. And they also contributed to the Jewish People.

  4. #109
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    On the contrary, I got your point. You just don't seem to get mine. No matter what order of tribes, and no matter what tribes are listed, they *represent* all 12 original tribal inheritances! The order and the names listed are *incidental* to this! They just show God's distaste for the failures of Dan and Ephraim, which included cities of idol worship in the Northern Kingdom.
    Wrong, I did get your claim that they represent ALL 12 original tribal land inheritances and that is COMPLETELY FALSE..

    The absence of Dan and Ephraim explains in what way the 144,000 are "virgins." They are virgins in the spiritual sense of avoiding idolatry. They've kept themselves pure for marriage to the Lamb.
    Finally agreement of sorts.

    These things are therefore in our time figurative symbols of Israel's future in the NT era, at the coming of Christ. Temple worship will not, I think, be restored. But Israel will indeed have an eternal land inheritance. It just won't involve 12 tribes anymore. They are gone forever.
    Here is a further claim based not on FACT but pure speculation AND contrary to statements in Revelation.

    No, I don't smoke anymore. I agree that the US has both a federal and a state system. However, I do not find the ethnicity of any one state remaining its own ethnicity. In a state like Utah you may find lots of Mormons. But there is a lot of migration between states because we have *a federal system!*
    This is because the states were not set up as ethnic places.
    However consider the EU.
    20+ states in one organisation.
    Each state was basically ethnic to a degree, and they fight fiercely for their ethnic group, hence the wave of nationalism at the moment.

    The same would've been true of the 12 tribes once Israel developed a monarchy. There would be intermarriage, and migration. Certainly there would be a more stable ethnicity per tribal area because of what you said about the law of jubilee, land inheritances, etc.
    Nope, because the LAND is based upon which of the tribes you are of. You either are one or the other. You clearly do NOT have a clue about the way people think about land, especially in the Middle East.

    However, as you know, the conditions constantly shifted in Israel through the centuries. The tribes were diminished, and eventually we only had two kingdoms, north and south. The regional ethnicities I'm sure still existed. But certainly there were no more real boundaries. At least I don't see evidence of them?
    What would you consider evidence?
    Fact is that 1000 years AFTER King Saul, a woman still was noted as being of the tribe of Asher. this is not a priestly tribe or a special tribe. It is even one of those tribes others claim is lost.
    Yet instead of it being diminished we find it clear noted.

    But after the captivities, only Judah and Benjamin return as tribal peoples--not boundaries, but tribal ethnicities. And they merged, generally, although I'm sure the priesthood and the royal line had their genealogies preserved.
    A claim based on ZERO facts or evidence.

    By the time of Christ all we have are "Jews," with a few people knowing "where they came from," or what their tribe was. This is not an established ethnicity by which 12 individual tribes may be formed once again 2000 years later!
    Incorrect. The usage of the word Jew may cloud your understanding of the tribes, but Josephus for example knew his tribe and even the line of his family.
    After the 70 year exile people returned and knew which families they belonged to.

  5. #110

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wrong, I did get your claim that they represent ALL 12 original tribal land inheritances and that is COMPLETELY FALSE..
    No, it is *completely true.* I'm not even saying that the mention of 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 means they will return to the exact boundaries of the original 12 tribes. I'm just saying that very *existence* of the 12 tribes relates back to their original formation, to their original tribal land inheritances.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Finally agreement of sorts.

    Here is a further claim based not on FACT but pure speculation AND contrary to statements in Revelation.

    This is because the states were not set up as ethnic places.
    However consider the EU.
    20+ states in one organisation.
    Each state was basically ethnic to a degree, and they fight fiercely for their ethnic group, hence the wave of nationalism at the moment.

    Nope, because the LAND is based upon which of the tribes you are of. You either are one or the other. You clearly do NOT have a clue about the way people think about land, especially in the Middle East.

    What would you consider evidence?
    Fact is that 1000 years AFTER King Saul, a woman still was noted as being of the tribe of Asher. this is not a priestly tribe or a special tribe. It is even one of those tribes others claim is lost.
    Yet instead of it being diminished we find it clear noted.

    A claim based on ZERO facts or evidence.

    Incorrect. The usage of the word Jew may cloud your understanding of the tribes, but Josephus for example knew his tribe and even the line of his family.
    After the 70 year exile people returned and knew which families they belonged to.
    What do you think the law of jubilee and land inheritances in Israel were all about! They were about maintaining ownership of the land of Israel for the people of Israel. They were establishing the *original charter* of the original 12 tribes.

    All I'm saying is that due to *sin,* Israel lost connection with both their tribal distinctions and their land inheritance. What emerged after the captivities was a people with much less of a tribal distinction, largely because a return to the land by the *people of Israel* did not require tribal distinctions. What mattered was that these people originated from the 12 tribes. And I think that is the point of the 144,000 and the 12 tribes involved.

    The fact they were originally divided up into 12 tribes is incidental to the promises, which stated that God would create for Abraham a *nation.* The tribes were just a stepping stone to get to that reality.

    And history has borne out that reality. If you cannot accept the fact that the tribal boundaries changed, disappeared, and merged into the Jewish People, you don't accept historical realities. And the recognition of tribal lineage, though established under the Law, was disrupted by the historical process involved with foreign attacks, issues of migration, failure to observe the Law, and the captivities following national apostasy.

    In reality, the Israel we see at the time of Jesus certainly included remnants of former tribes. But they all became merged into the "Jewish People." You are trying to fit your interpretation of the 144,000 into reality like fitting a square peg into a round hole. There are no more 12 tribes of Israel, period!

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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    [QUOTE=randyk;3422994.

    In reality, the Israel we see at the time of Jesus certainly included remnants of former tribes. But they all became merged into the "Jewish People." You are trying to fit your interpretation of the 144,000 into reality like fitting a square peg into a round hole. There are no more 12 tribes of Israel, period![/QUOTE]

    But the tribal divisions of Israel being not apparent to us today, does not mean they won't be in the future. I and others have pointed out Amos 9:9 to you, that says quite plainly the God knows where all His people are. Ezekiel 47 & 48 lay out the Land divisions for the future nation that will occupy all of the holy Land. The tribe of Judah is only one of them.

  7. #112

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    But the tribal divisions of Israel being not apparent to us today, does not mean they won't be in the future. I and others have pointed out Amos 9:9 to you, that says quite plainly the God knows where all His people are. Ezekiel 47 & 48 lay out the Land divisions for the future nation that will occupy all of the holy Land. The tribe of Judah is only one of them.
    I think that's just like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole! There are no tribal distinctions today. You are just, for the sake of interpreting the 144,000 literally, trying to make it appear as if somehow the 12 tribes still exist. They do not!

    I also trust in God's word. But these kinds of prophecies are symbolic, and cannot be used to establish some kind of doctrine about the restoration of 12 Israeli tribes. It makes perfect sense to me if God is trying to tell us that somehow the entire *land of Israel* is going to be re-inhabited by the original people who emerged from the 12 tribes--the Jews!

  8. #113
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think that's just like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole! There are no tribal distinctions today. You are just, for the sake of interpreting the 144,000 literally, trying to make it appear as if somehow the 12 tribes still exist. They do not!

    I also trust in God's word. But these kinds of prophecies are symbolic, and cannot be used to establish some kind of doctrine about the restoration of 12 Israeli tribes. It makes perfect sense to me if God is trying to tell us that somehow the entire *land of Israel* is going to be re-inhabited by the original people who emerged from the 12 tribes--the Jews!
    Sorry, Randyk, the Prophetic Word makes it clear that the holy Land will be inhabited by the Lord's people. Which the Jews, in the main, are not. They themselves have renounced their Messiah and He has taken the Kingdom from them. Matthew 21:43
    We are told it is people from every race, nation and language, Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 7:9 who will be the people God always wanted there, but has never had.
    They will be divided into 12 divisions, that will be called after the 12 sons of Jacob. Matthew 19:28, John 7:35 proves their existence then and today.

    Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

    This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.
    1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5
    2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27
    3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10
    The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4
    This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

  9. #114
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, it is *completely true.* I'm not even saying that the mention of 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 means they will return to the exact boundaries of the original 12 tribes. I'm just saying that very *existence* of the 12 tribes relates back to their original formation, to their original tribal land inheritances.



    What do you think the law of jubilee and land inheritances in Israel were all about! They were about maintaining ownership of the land of Israel for the people of Israel. They were establishing the *original charter* of the original 12 tribes.

    All I'm saying is that due to *sin,* Israel lost connection with both their tribal distinctions and their land inheritance. What emerged after the captivities was a people with much less of a tribal distinction, largely because a return to the land by the *people of Israel* did not require tribal distinctions. What mattered was that these people originated from the 12 tribes. And I think that is the point of the 144,000 and the 12 tribes involved.

    The fact they were originally divided up into 12 tribes is incidental to the promises, which stated that God would create for Abraham a *nation.* The tribes were just a stepping stone to get to that reality.

    And history has borne out that reality. If you cannot accept the fact that the tribal boundaries changed, disappeared, and merged into the Jewish People, you don't accept historical realities. And the recognition of tribal lineage, though established under the Law, was disrupted by the historical process involved with foreign attacks, issues of migration, failure to observe the Law, and the captivities following national apostasy.

    In reality, the Israel we see at the time of Jesus certainly included remnants of former tribes. But they all became merged into the "Jewish People." You are trying to fit your interpretation of the 144,000 into reality like fitting a square peg into a round hole. There are no more 12 tribes of Israel, period!
    You keep claiming the 12 tribes are mentioned in Revelation 7. I keep highlighting that the 12 tribes are not mentioned as Dan is not included.
    You then say this is because of idolatry, but which ignores everyone that your claim is about land, in which case Dan MUST be mentioned as Land has nothing to do with idolatry.
    All prophetic mentions of Land include Dan.
    So this is about spirituality NOT Land, which you note but REFUSE to accept.
    Add to this the FACT that you refuse to acknowledge that tribal lines were known 1000 years after you claim they would cease to be relevant and it becomes clear that you are NOT interested in the truth unless it fits within your criteria of what it is about.
    We should ALWAYS seek the truth first and then build or ideas and not build ideas on speculation and then try to fit facts to them.
    As you have refused repeatedly to acknowledge the truth that tribal lines were well known and relevant to people at the time of Revelation, then this also means you refuse to allow this to guide you in how you interpret Revelation 7, so there is no point in discussing this with you.

  10. #115
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You keep claiming the 12 tribes are mentioned in Revelation 7. I keep highlighting that the 12 tribes are not mentioned as Dan is not included.
    You then say this is because of idolatry, but which ignores everyone that your claim is about land, in which case Dan MUST be mentioned as Land has nothing to do with idolatry.
    All prophetic mentions of Land include Dan.
    So this is about spirituality NOT Land, which you note but REFUSE to accept.
    Add to this the FACT that you refuse to acknowledge that tribal lines were known 1000 years after you claim they would cease to be relevant and it becomes clear that you are NOT interested in the truth unless it fits within your criteria of what it is about.
    We should ALWAYS seek the truth first and then build or ideas and not build ideas on speculation and then try to fit facts to them.
    As you have refused repeatedly to acknowledge the truth that tribal lines were well known and relevant to people at the time of Revelation, then this also means you refuse to allow this to guide you in how you interpret Revelation 7, so there is no point in discussing this with you.
    Hey FHG,

    I don't have a lot of time to look up the posts that you explain WHY Dan is not mentioned in the 144,000 tribes. I am interested to see what you believe on this subject. Can you point them out to me, or give me a brief description... I knew this fact, but never did a study on it. I might do that, but wonder where you stand on this.

  11. #116
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Hey FHG,

    I don't have a lot of time to look up the posts that you explain WHY Dan is not mentioned in the 144,000 tribes. I am interested to see what you believe on this subject. Can you point them out to me, or give me a brief description... I knew this fact, but never did a study on it. I might do that, but wonder where you stand on this.
    I didnt specifically post my own reasons, mainly because I agree with what randyk put, that it was due to idolatry.
    IOW the 144k virgins are NOT idol worshippers, and the tribe of Dan were. There are some Bible verses about this which I would have to look up.
    So the connection is a spiritual one and not one related to land inheritance.
    However though randyk acknowledges that reason, he still goes back to claiming it is about land.

    When you read Ezekiel 47 & 48 when it speaks about land, Dan is mentioned. This says to me that as one of the 144k as a representative they fall short, but as a people who are redeemed then God keeps His word.

  12. #117

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Ok Water, it seems you have read my long...too long post. lol I hope it will be useful for you. I move forward. Bye

  13. #118
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    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I didnt specifically post my own reasons, mainly because I agree with what randyk put, that it was due to idolatry.
    IOW the 144k virgins are NOT idol worshippers, and the tribe of Dan were. There are some Bible verses about this which I would have to look up.
    So the connection is a spiritual one and not one related to land inheritance.
    However though randyk acknowledges that reason, he still goes back to claiming it is about land.

    When you read Ezekiel 47 & 48 when it speaks about land, Dan is mentioned. This says to me that as one of the 144k as a representative they fall short, but as a people who are redeemed then God keeps His word.
    OK, thanks. I will look further into this when I have time this week... Starting vacation tomorrow! YEA!!!!

  14. #119

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Well, bye mven222, nice meeting you (though I do hope you stick around! )

    I understand about "too long," the guys around here are always making comment about my manner of posting. LOL

    And when I first joined the forum, I was going to choose the username "Thereforeletthywordsbefew" but then thought that might be a bit much. [too many characters ]


    And yes, your very long post was indeed useful. It had my "discern-o-meter" exercising wildly.

    Let us remember what God said in Isaiah 46:9-10 "I am God... DECLARING the END FROM the BEGINNING."

    And what Jesus said in John 12:48 ["in the last day" (I don't think that's the 24-hr one)], and then Acts 17:30-31 (did I already mention that one here?), oh, and 1Cor15:24-28 ["then the end"].

    Hope to see you around the boards.

  15. #120

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Sorry, Randyk, the Prophetic Word makes it clear that the holy Land will be inhabited by the Lord's people. Which the Jews, in the main, are not. They themselves have renounced their Messiah and He has taken the Kingdom from them. Matthew 21:43
    We are told it is people from every race, nation and language, Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 7:9 who will be the people God always wanted there, but has never had.
    They will be divided into 12 divisions, that will be called after the 12 sons of Jacob. Matthew 19:28, John 7:35 proves their existence then and today.

    Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

    This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.
    1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5
    2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27
    3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10
    The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4
    This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
    Keraz, I respect your position because 1) the Church has held your position for a very long time, and 2) I'm not dead certain of my own interpretation. However, for now, I believe the passage is stating that the descendants of the original twelve tribes will inherit the entirety of the land of Israel. God's promises are being kept.

    There is no question that Israel is not yet God's People. That's true if you look at them presently as a nation. The vast majority are not Christians.

    However, there is a Christian remnant among them, as even Paul says. And these, I believe, sort of "stand in" for the hope of the whole nation, that the nation will one day become a Christian nation.

    Many nations in history have become "Christian." Why can't that happen to Israel too?

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