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Thread: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

  1. #256

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Maybe you have an answer to what I put in my post #249 then? That would likely help me out. Thanks.


    [and I'm still thinking "antiphonal singing" makes sense of that entire context (see my post #251, part 2); IOW, it is the 4 living creatures who say the part "Amen"]
    This would be proof against your theory in my opinion. Since it's specified where the elders and beast do not speak in unison. It could reasonably be assumed that everywhere unspecified they speak is in unison.

  2. #257
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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    They are singing about redeemed men, not themselves. "Redeemed us" represents a change to the original text and is what's in dispute. Early manuscripts do not contain the word 'us' and just say "redeemed to God by thy blood....". Most of the rest have a third person reading. And a couple of late manuscripts say 'redeemed us'. Check 5:9 in other translations besides the KJV. They either will omit the pronoun or add [men] or [persons] for clarity. Angels singing a song about redeemed men do not have to be redeemed themselves.
    It doesn't matter whether you think the word "us" is there or not. It is all about redemption and salvation. Because scripture show that the 4 faces of the 4 beasts, are the creatures of redemption, traced all the back to the garden of Eden, you find the unbreakable bond between the 4 beasts and the 24 elders throughout the book of Revelation. For example,

    *[[Rev 4:9]] KJV* And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    The beasts fall down to worship, and so do the elders, in response to opening the sealed book.

    *[[Rev 5:8]] KJV* And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    And here we see "every creature" of a redeemable nature [this does not include the angels for that reason]

    *[[Rev 5:13]] KJV* And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    And here we see the angels "around about" them,

    *[[Rev 7:11]] KJV* And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

    And here we see them with the 144,000 redeemed from among men,

    *[[Rev 14:3]] KJV* And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    And here we see a great multitude of PEOPLE in heaven, praising God for salvation, the end product which is the redemption of our bodies,

    *[[Rev 19:1]] KJV* And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    And what do we see but the 4 beasts and the 24 elders doing?

    *[[Rev 19:4]] KJV* And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    The 4 beasts and the 24 elders are all about redemption, the redemption of all of creation.

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  3. #258

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    It doesn't matter whether you think the word "us" is there or not. It is all about redemption and salvation. Because scripture show that the 4 faces of the 4 beasts, are the creatures of redemption, traced all the back to the garden of Eden, you find the unbreakable bond between the 4 beasts and the 24 elders throughout the book of Revelation. For example,

    *[[Rev 4:9]] KJV* And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    The beasts fall down to worship, and so do the elders, in response to opening the sealed book.

    *[[Rev 5:8]] KJV* And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    And here we see "every creature" of a redeemable nature [this does not include the angels for that reason]

    *[[Rev 5:13]] KJV* And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    And here we see the angels "around about" them,

    *[[Rev 7:11]] KJV* And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

    And here we see them with the 144,000 redeemed from among men,

    *[[Rev 14:3]] KJV* And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    And here we see a great multitude of PEOPLE in heaven, praising God for salvation, the end product which is the redemption of our bodies,

    *[[Rev 19:1]] KJV* And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    And what do we see but the 4 beasts and the 24 elders doing?

    *[[Rev 19:4]] KJV* And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    The 4 beasts and the 24 elders are all about redemption, the redemption of all of creation.

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    You've really lost me here. Yes there are a mixed bag of humans and angels in heaven singing songs during Revelation. Scripture makes it pretty clear that the four living creatures are heavenly beings that existed, and were with God long before the redemption of mankind occurs though. They are very much associated with the 'throne of God' to the point that God's throne sits atop them. And when He wants to go somewhere they take him. These are not humans, nor were they ever.

    Psalm 18:9 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. 10 He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind.
    Psalm 80:1 Hear us, Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock. You who sit enthroned between the cherubim, shine forth
    Ezekiel 10 shows that the Cherubim are actually moving the throne around, like a vehicle. When the Lord gets ready to leave He gets atop the Cherubim and they fly away.
    Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. 19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the Lord's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
    They are like a living vehicle for God's throne from what I see. They are not ever, nor ever have been apart from God's throne. (these particular four creatures)

    I understand your point, that in Rev 5 they are praising God for redeeming men from the earth. But I think that's just because that's what God and Christ are doing at that particular time. I don't think that's their main mantra or anything. It's just situational praise.

  4. #259
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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    You've really lost me here. Yes there are a mixed bag of humans and angels in heaven singing songs during Revelation. Scripture makes it pretty clear that the four living creatures are heavenly beings that existed, and were with God long before the redemption of mankind occurs though. They are very much associated with the 'throne of God' to the point that God's throne sits atop them. And when He wants to go somewhere they take him. These are not humans, nor were they ever.

    Psalm 18:9 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. 10 He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind.
    Psalm 80:1 Hear us, Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock. You who sit enthroned between the cherubim, shine forth
    Ezekiel 10 shows that the Cherubim are actually moving the throne around, like a vehicle. When the Lord gets ready to leave He gets atop the Cherubim and they fly away.
    Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. 19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the Lord's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
    They are like a living vehicle for God's throne from what I see. They are not ever, nor ever have been apart from God's throne. (these particular four creatures)

    I understand your point, that in Rev 5 they are praising God for redeeming men from the earth. But I think that's just because that's what God and Christ are doing at that particular time. I don't think that's their main mantra or anything. It's just situational praise.
    How about the Roles of the elders in the OT? Maybe others can find other passages personally my mind only goes to this one - Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.

    The Word "Elders" here seems to have been translated many different ways depending on the bible, I just point this out because to me Jesus seems to have a special relationship with the elders.

    Other Elder Passages i can think of :

    The 70 elders at the Exodus 24:9-14 who eat a meal with God.

    The 70 Elders that received power from God with Moses Numbers 11:16-25

    Also i'm curious if you think the Thrones in Rev 20:4 could be the same thrones as those that were in Rev 4:4?

  5. #260
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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    You've really lost me here. Yes there are a mixed bag of humans and angels in heaven singing songs during Revelation. Scripture makes it pretty clear that the four living creatures are heavenly beings that existed, and were with God long before the redemption of mankind occurs though. They are very much associated with the 'throne of God' to the point that God's throne sits atop them. And when He wants to go somewhere they take him. These are not humans, nor were they ever.

    Psalm 18:9 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. 10 He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind.
    Psalm 80:1 Hear us, Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock. You who sit enthroned between the cherubim, shine forth
    Ezekiel 10 shows that the Cherubim are actually moving the throne around, like a vehicle. When the Lord gets ready to leave He gets atop the Cherubim and they fly away.
    Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. 19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the Lord's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
    They are like a living vehicle for God's throne from what I see. They are not ever, nor ever have been apart from God's throne. (these particular four creatures)

    I understand your point, that in Rev 5 they are praising God for redeeming men from the earth. But I think that's just because that's what God and Christ are doing at that particular time. I don't think that's their main mantra or anything. It's just situational praise.
    I guess you do not see the 4 faces of the cherubims as the 4 parts of God 's creatures that will be redeemed.

    *[[Rom 8:22]] KJV* For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    *[[Rom 8:23]] KJV* And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    *[[Lev 17:11]] KJV* For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    *[[Joh 6:54]] KJV* Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    I can't make you see that life is in the blood, the blood of Christ.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  6. #261
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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by Johosophat View Post
    How can there be an assurance of protection when true believers will be being beheaded for refusing the mark?

    Revelation makes clear there is a sizable number of tribulation saints who are killed for refusing to follow the antichrist. Why are they not protected?

    I think its clear when you total all the Scripture on the end times there HAS to be a pre trib rapture to avoid the scriptures contradicting themselves in multiple places. This is a perfect example.
    Not true. If you really believe the antichrist will succeed in killing *everyone* who oppose him, then you need to think it through once again.

  7. #262

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    How about the Roles of the elders in the OT? Maybe others can find other passages personally my mind only goes to this one - Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.

    The Word "Elders" here seems to have been translated many different ways depending on the bible, I just point this out because to me Jesus seems to have a special relationship with the elders.

    Other Elder Passages i can think of :

    The 70 elders at the Exodus 24:9-14 who eat a meal with God.

    The 70 Elders that received power from God with Moses Numbers 11:16-25
    Yes God created an earthly court over the nation of Israel of 70 men in Numbers 11:16. But I think that this is a mirror of the already existing heavenly court of 70 angels. At the time when God confounded the language of those building the tower of Babel he divided the earth into 70 nations and languages. He used 70 angels to accomplish this (Jasher 9:32), one angel overseeing each of the newly created nations. Of course he kept the nation of Israel for himself, so it's actually 71 nations, including Israel, when they emerged later.

    This earthly court of 70 governs the affairs of Israel, and the heavenly court governs the affairs of the earth. Each will assemble occasionally and decide on issues of governance like we see in Job 1:6, where we also learn that Satan is one of the 70. So when you see characters such as the 'prince of Persia' and the 'prince of Grecia' in Daniel, I think these are among the 70 angelic rulers of the earth named after their original designation as rulers over a certain area when the earth was divided in Genesis 10. We can also see that some of these have been corrupted and no longer serve the will of God. It's my opinion that when Satan is cast out of heaven in Revelation 12, these other corrupted leaders will be cast out with him, like the prince of Persia and Grecia etc. Leaving only 24 righteous angels of the original 70.

    Also i'm curious if you think the Thrones in Rev 20:4 could be the same thrones as those that were in Rev 4:4?
    The final act of this angelic heavenly court will be to turn over rulership of the earth to the saints as we see happen in Daniel 7. They currently rule over the earth but when Christ defeats the AC humans will take over their rulership. So at their final assembly they take away dominion of the earth from the AC and give it to the saints.

    [ESV]Dan 7:26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. 27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High

    As for your question, I'm pretty certain that those on thrones in Rev 20:4 is a reference to this final assembly of the angelic court in Dan 7:26,27. But I'm not sure if the phrase "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" is referencing the assembly of the final angelic heavenly council, or a picture of the newly created human council.

  8. #263

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I guess you do not see the 4 faces of the cherubims as the 4 parts of God 's creatures that will be redeemed.

    *[[Rom 8:22]] KJV* For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    *[[Rom 8:23]] KJV* And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    *[[Lev 17:11]] KJV* For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    *[[Joh 6:54]] KJV* Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    I can't make you see that life is in the blood, the blood of Christ.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    Yes I'm really sorry I'm not able to see what you are trying to show me. I wish I could if you have a particular revelation in this matter. It would seem to me that since the creation of the cherubim would predate the creation of beasts, that beasts were patterned after them in appearance, not them after beasts right?

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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Yes I'm really sorry I'm not able to see what you are trying to show me. I wish I could if you have a particular revelation in this matter. It would seem to me that since the creation of the cherubim would predate the creation of beasts, that beasts were patterned after them in appearance, not them after beasts right?
    I gave you scripture to show you their function. And you are relying on scripture to tell you that they were created first?
    GB

  10. #265

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I gave you scripture to show you their function. And you are relying on scripture to tell you that they were created first?
    GB
    Well Job 38 says that the 'mourning stars' and 'sons of God' rejoiced when God laid the foundation of the earth, and the foundation of the earth was laid before animals were created so...

  11. #266
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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Well Job 38 says that the 'mourning stars' and 'sons of God' rejoiced when God laid the foundation of the earth, and the foundation of the earth was laid before animals were created so...
    So now you are saying that the 4 beasts, and I emphasize "beasts" are now angelic?
    Blessings
    GB

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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Well Job 38 says that the 'mourning stars' and 'sons of God' rejoiced when God laid the foundation of the earth, and the foundation of the earth was laid before animals were created so...
    Did not God foreordain before the foundation of the world that Jesus would be slain? But when was that manifest?
    GB

  13. #268

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    So now you are saying that the 4 beasts, and I emphasize "beasts" are now angelic?
    Blessings
    GB
    Yes this was always my position. These appear to be the same creatures in Ezekiel 1 and 10 do you agree? Ezekiel identifies them as 'cherubim' (Ez 10:14). It's also my position that the 24 elders are angelic beings just to be clear. Cherubim were placed at the entrance to the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were cast out (Gen 3:24), so their creation is separate to that of humans.

    Did not God foreordain before the foundation of the world that Jesus would be slain? But when was that manifest?
    Yes Christ's action on the cross came about much later. But the actions of the angels mentioned in Job were carried out at the time of the foundation of the earth. Meaning when God laid the foundation, they rejoiced at that time.

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    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Yes this was always my position. These appear to be the same creatures in Ezekiel 1 and 10 do you agree? Ezekiel identifies them as 'cherubim' (Ez 10:14). It's also my position that the 24 elders are angelic beings just to be clear. Cherubim were placed at the entrance to the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were cast out (Gen 3:24), so their creation is separate to that of humans.


    Yes Christ's action on the cross came about much later. But the actions of the angels mentioned in Job were carried out at the time of the foundation of the earth. Meaning when God laid the foundation, they rejoiced at that time.
    Does it not bother you that what was said of man:

    *[[Gen 2:7]] KJV* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    That man was a "living" soul,

    h1. H2416

    Original: *חי*

    Transliteration: *chay*

    Phonetic: *khah'-ee*

    *BDB Definition*:

    # living, alive (adjective)
    ## green (of vegetation)
    ## flowing, fresh (of water)
    ## lively, active (of man)
    ## reviving (of the springtime)
    # relatives (noun masculine)
    # life (abstract emphatic) (noun masculine)
    ## life
    ## sustenance, maintenance
    # living thing, animal (noun feminine)
    ## animal
    ## life
    ## appetite
    ## revival, renewal
    # community (noun feminine)

    Origin: from [[d 2421]]

    TWOT entry: 644a

    Part(s) of speech:

    *Strong's Definition*: From [[H2421]]; _alive_ ; hence _raw_ (flesh); _fresh_ (plant, water, year), _strong_ ; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) _life_ (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

    That the same thing is said of the cherubims:

    *[[Eze 10:17]] KJV* When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.

    And that the source of life/ living is in the blood?

    *[[Lev 17:11]] KJV* For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    And that it was the blood of living creatures that was used to "make atonement for your souls"

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    Last edited by goldenboy; Jan 14th 2018 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Added a final thought.

  15. #270

    Re: Doctrine of imminent return & pre trib

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Does it not bother you that what was said of man:

    *[[Gen 2:7]] KJV* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    That man was a "living" soul,

    h1. H2416

    Original: *חי*

    Transliteration: *chay*

    Phonetic: *khah'-ee*

    *BDB Definition*:

    # living, alive (adjective)
    ## green (of vegetation)
    ## flowing, fresh (of water)
    ## lively, active (of man)
    ## reviving (of the springtime)
    # relatives (noun masculine)
    # life (abstract emphatic) (noun masculine)
    ## life
    ## sustenance, maintenance
    # living thing, animal (noun feminine)
    ## animal
    ## life
    ## appetite
    ## revival, renewal
    # community (noun feminine)

    Origin: from [[d 2421]]

    TWOT entry: 644a

    Part(s) of speech:

    *Strong's Definition*: From [[H2421]]; _alive_ ; hence _raw_ (flesh); _fresh_ (plant, water, year), _strong_ ; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) _life_ (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

    That the same thing is said of the cherubims:

    *[[Eze 10:17]] KJV* When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.

    And that the source of life/ living is in the blood?

    *[[Lev 17:11]] KJV* For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    And that it was the blood of living creatures that was used to "make atonement for your souls"

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    Ezekiel 10:17 says that the 'spirit' of the living creature is in them. You seem to be implying that the 'blood' of the living creature is in them. These are quite different things aren't they? Blood is required to sustain the flesh as your Lev 17:11 prooftext shows. But it is not required to sustain or give life to spiritual creatures. The breath (spirit) of God makes his creations live as Gen 2:7 text shows. And our flesh bodies also require blood as it says in Lev 17. But notice Moses says that blood is the 'life of the flesh', he does not say this is what makes us a 'living soul'. A creature without flesh, such as an angel (Heb 1:14), does not require blood for their bodies to live, so I don't think Lev 17:11 applies to them.

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