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Thread: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

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    WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Ok. I have presented this numerous times but this time we will start by focusing on the word "WE".

    Surely interpeting grammer the "WE" would include Paul would it not?

    Paul states the following.....

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Paul knew he and those whom he was speaking would not be present when this events takes place

    1. Paul had the gift of prophesy.

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge;

    Please don't think for one minute Paul was confused in thinking he would be living on the earth during I Thess 4.

    2. Paul says he would not be present.

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    Paul knew ALL myteries and so too those he was speaking and that it would not occur until the Lord comes as a thief in the night. In which prior many other things needed to occur as well.

    So if Paul is part of the "WE" which he is, and of course this event did not occur prior to his death, then the only understanding is that the WE refers to the "dead in Christ" in which of course Paul will be part.

    The dead in Christ are the alive and remain once resurrected.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (Paul and those whom he is speaking which shall be dead) which are alive (upon resurrection) and remain (after judgment) shall be caught up together with them (those already in the grave) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Ok. I have presented this numerous times but this time we will start by focusing on the word "WE".

    Surely interpeting grammer the "WE" would include Paul would it not?

    Paul states the following.....

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Paul knew he and those whom he was speaking would not be present when this events takes place

    1. Paul had the gift of prophesy.

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge;

    Please don't think for one minute Paul was confused in thinking he would be living on the earth during I Thess 4.

    2. Paul says he would not be present.

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    Paul knew ALL myteries and so too those he was speaking and that it would not occur until the Lord comes as a thief in the night. In which prior many other things needed to occur as well.

    So if Paul is part of the "WE" which he is, and of course this event did not occur prior to his death, then the only understanding is that the WE refers to the "dead in Christ" in which of course Paul will be part.

    The dead in Christ are the alive and remain once resurrected.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (Paul and those whom he is speaking which shall be dead) which are alive (upon resurrection) and remain (after judgment) shall be caught up together with them (those already in the grave) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Unless Paul was not yet shown what death He would partake yet, so he literally thought he could indeed be alive at the Lords coming. Later in Pauls life he was given a revelation to know how he would die, so then he would have known that Jesus would not come until after he died. But before then He would have thought he would have been alive.

    I disagree with your concept here. If Paul puts himself in the underlines, then He is not of the Bolded...

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (dead in Christ-risen) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Unless Paul was not yet shown what death He would partake yet, so he literally thought he could indeed be alive at the Lords coming. Later in Pauls life he was given a revelation to know how he would die, so then he would have known that Jesus would not come until after he died. But before then He would have thought he would have been alive.

    I disagree with your concept here. If Paul puts himself in the underlines, then He is not of the Bolded...

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (dead in Christ-risen) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    "with them" are those which already sleep.

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (even them also which sleep) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    There is no escape from the grammar. Paul includes himself in the living. And his prayer was that the Thessalonians would be "preserved" alive till the Lord's coming (1st Thess.5:23 - to be "whole" body and souls and spirit is to be alive. At death these parts are sundered and the man is NOT "whole" anymore).

    But this should come as no surprise. Nearly 25 years earlier the Lord Jesus told His disciples to "watch" for this same "day and hour". In Matthew 24:42 it is; "Watch therefore: for YE know not what hour your Lord doth come." The "YE" are His disciples. Every Christian must expect the Lord at the next hour. It not commonly taught because in eschatology we tend to focus on Israel, but there are NO prophecies for the CHURCH yet to be fulfilled. The Lord, coming as a thief (for something precious), could come at any time.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    I agree with others here. No one knows the day or the hour. Jesus said not even the Son only the Father. So Paul didn’t know. He probably hoped to be alive for it.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

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    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    I agree with others here. No one knows the day or the hour. Jesus said not even the Son only the Father. So Paul didn’t know. He probably hoped to be alive for it.
    Though I agree that I don't think anyone knows the day or hour, and most probably Paul didn't (and if he did, he didn't tell anyone). I actually disagree with the misuse of this verse.
    It was stated at a certain time and place and was not a statement for forever.
    I believe Jesus does KNOW the Day and Hour NOW, Yet He did not then.
    I believe that He has revealed many things which enable us to have a clearer understanding of when.

  7. #7

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Though I agree that I don't think anyone knows the day or hour, and most probably Paul didn't (and if he did, he didn't tell anyone). I actually disagree with the misuse of this verse.
    It was stated at a certain time and place and was not a statement for forever.
    I believe Jesus does KNOW the Day and Hour NOW, Yet He did not then.
    I believe that He has revealed many things which enable us to have a clearer understanding of when.
    Agreed!



    [where we might disagree is that I believe the context (Matt24:36, etc) is referring to His Second Coming to the earth rather than the context being about our Rapture; however, I can see some application to both in similar ways. In that, He knows both. And I believe He has since revealed many things which enable us to have a clearer understanding of both (though it is the Rapture [and its timing of course] that applies to us, in a primary way [not to those at the time of His Second Coming to the earth])--pardon my brackets ]

    .
    Last edited by TheDivineWatermark; Jan 12th 2018 at 01:35 PM. Reason: clarifying which verse

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Though I agree that I don't think anyone knows the day or hour, and most probably Paul didn't (and if he did, he didn't tell anyone). I actually disagree with the misuse of this verse.
    It was stated at a certain time and place and was not a statement for forever.
    I believe Jesus does KNOW the Day and Hour NOW, Yet He did not then.
    I believe that He has revealed many things which enable us to have a clearer understanding of when.

    I fully agree with this.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Ok. I have presented this numerous times but this time we will start by focusing on the word "WE".

    Surely interpeting grammer the "WE" would include Paul would it not?

    Paul states the following.....

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Paul knew he and those whom he was speaking would not be present when this events takes place

    1. Paul had the gift of prophesy.

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge;

    Please don't think for one minute Paul was confused in thinking he would be living on the earth during I Thess 4.

    2. Paul says he would not be present.

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    Paul knew ALL myteries and so too those he was speaking and that it would not occur until the Lord comes as a thief in the night. In which prior many other things needed to occur as well.

    So if Paul is part of the "WE" which he is, and of course this event did not occur prior to his death, then the only understanding is that the WE refers to the "dead in Christ" in which of course Paul will be part.

    The dead in Christ are the alive and remain once resurrected.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (Paul and those whom he is speaking which shall be dead) which are alive (upon resurrection) and remain (after judgment) shall be caught up together with them (those already in the grave) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Jesus addressed the apostles and Jews of his age and since they all DEAD now, does it mean the words of Jesus does not apply to ALL until his Glorious Return? You are right that "WE" included Paul, who didn't know whether DoTL will come in his lifetime. But since it didn't, it doesn't in any sense invalidate the *we that are alive and remain*. It's a statement that carries through to those fortunate enough to live through the eschaton.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Though I agree that I don't think anyone knows the day or hour, and most probably Paul didn't (and if he did, he didn't tell anyone). I actually disagree with the misuse of this verse.
    It was stated at a certain time and place and was not a statement for forever.
    I believe Jesus does KNOW the Day and Hour NOW, Yet He did not then.
    I believe that He has revealed many things which enable us to have a clearer understanding of when.
    Wao, slow down! If you now have a "clearer understanding of WHEN" these things will occur, please share? The way I see it, our better understanding of eschatology, the fact that the Gospel has literally reached all corners of the world, which is a prerequisite, allows discerning Christians to conclude that the time is "imminent".

    But in reality, while our sense of imminence might be closer, it is really not too different from Paul's time. The truth is that every *age* believes it will happen in their time, so to them it is imminent. I'm sure you can no more give a specific time than Paul could.

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Though I agree that I don't think anyone knows the day or hour, and most probably Paul didn't (and if he did, he didn't tell anyone). I actually disagree with the misuse of this verse.
    It was stated at a certain time and place and was not a statement for forever.
    I believe Jesus does KNOW the Day and Hour NOW, Yet He did not then.
    I believe that He has revealed many things which enable us to have a clearer understanding of when.
    Misuse of what verse? By whom?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  12. #12

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    the fact that the Gospel has literally reached all corners of the world, which is a prerequisite,
    If you're referring to Matthew 24:14, that is what takes places (on the earth) FOLLOWING our Rapture (in the air). It is not a prerequisite for our Rapture.



    [they (on the earth during that future time [the 7 yrs]) will be preaching "this gospel of the kingdom" Matt24:14, 26:13; telling of its now "VERY SOON ARRIVAL" (His 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK, aka the wedding FEAST/SUPPER)]

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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    If you're referring to Matthew 24:14, that is what takes places (on the earth) FOLLOWING our Rapture (in the air). It is not a prerequisite for our Rapture.



    [they (on the earth during that future time [the 7 yrs]) will be preaching "this gospel of the kingdom" Matt24:14, 26:13; telling of its now "VERY SOON ARRIVAL" (His 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK, aka the wedding FEAST/SUPPER)]
    Where do they learn of this gospel and learn it well enough to preach it themselves if those who initially had been preaching this gospel, meaning the church, are not even on the earth anymore but have been raptured to heaven instead? You do realize anyone preaching this gospel post the time of the first coming, this makes them of the body of Christ meaning the church, right? How can the church be raptured away to heaven if it is still present through these preaching the gospel until the end comes?

  14. #14

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Johosophat View Post
    I fully agree with this.
    That makes at least 3 of us that agree at least to some degree!



    [John (95ad) was given to reveal details primarily about the timing of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK [commencing at Rev19+]; it was the task given someone else to reveal [record in Scripture] the details regarding our Rapture; though in John's writings, there is some evidence of the other as well, therein...]

  15. #15

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Where do they learn of this gospel and learn it well enough to preach it themselves if those who initially had been preaching this gospel, meaning the church, are not even on the earth anymore but have been raptured to heaven instead? You do realize anyone preaching this gospel post the time of the first coming, this makes them of the body of Christ meaning the church, right? How can the church be raptured away to heaven if it is still present through these preaching the gospel until the end comes?
    The same place they [which be in Judaea] who "flee" at mid-trib have learned something. Where would that be, would you say?



    How long does it take to learn to "flee"?

    How long does it take to learn [believe] "Jesus IS the Messiah"?

    How long does it take to say "the kingdom is VERY NEAR [His 'return']"?




    Do you remember what I'd said about Matt22:7-9?

    V.7 is detailing about the events of 70ad ("burned their city"). Then verse 8 says "THEN saith He unto His servants" [this is 95ad info... AFTER the 70ad events occur; and Rev1:1 is saying that it is "to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... (not unfold over 2000 yrs); see Rev7:3 for example "servants of our God" (here, the 144,000)]


    [note Gal 4:7]

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