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Thread: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

  1. #76
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    That was in the first paragraph. The 2nd paragraph though, he was making some pretty compelling arguments IMO, yet at the same time seemed somewhat contradictory to his non Amil position.

    The end in question is the one mentioned in 1 Cor 15. If that end is the same as the end that closes out this age once Jesus has returned, it seems to me that that would make Premil impossible, because like I pointed out, the end specified in 1 Cor 15 also involves the GWTJ preceding it. The GWTJ is of course after the thousand years.
    1. The END is when Jesus returns and starts his reign (MK).
    2. The end of the 1000 years when GWTJ occurs is not the end of the age referred to in the Gospels.
    3. The NHNE commences at the end of the MK - when God comes to earth and death is no more. You may be mesmerised by contrary arguments, but a diligent study will prove it's impossible for MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent.

  2. #77
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    God is saying (through this parable Jesus stated) that He will "burned up their city" (that occurred in 70ad). The passage CONTINUES ON to say (from there), "THEN SAITH HE to his servants". What did He "SAY" AFTER 70ad (after the city was "burned up"), after He "BURNED up their city"? The parable does NOT say He "SAITH" to His servants BEFORE He "burned up their city," does it?? Read it again, carefully.

    The vv.7-8 are telling of the SEQUENCE. First the burning up of the city. THEN His "SAITH" takes place, according TO THE PARABLE (not BEFORE 70ad events).
    Pardon me, my head seems wrapped up in cotton wool all right now. I'm definitely missing something here.

  3. #78

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Pardon me, my head seems wrapped up in cotton wool all right now. I'm definitely missing something here.
    It's fine. Just so you know, I added to my post that you've quoted here. Perhaps the additions may help clarify. Thanks.


    wrapped up in cotton wool all right now
    Let your cotton be cotton, and let your wool be wool.

  4. #79
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. The END is when Jesus returns and starts his reign (MK).
    2. The end of the 1000 years when GWTJ occurs is not the end of the age referred to in the Gospels.
    3. The NHNE commences at the end of the MK - when God comes to earth and death is no more. You may be mesmerised by contrary arguments, but a diligent study will prove it's impossible for MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent.
    I get all of that. So when exactly are you saying the end mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is meaning? 1, 2, or 3 in your list above?

  5. #80
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The NHNE commences at the end of the MK - when God comes to earth and death is no more. You may be mesmerised by contrary arguments, but a diligent study will prove it's impossible for MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent.
    Diligent study shows it is NOT impossible for the MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent - in fact it proves it.

  6. #81
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Diligent study shows it is NOT impossible for the MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent - in fact it proves it.
    That's what I conclude as well, for a number of years now.

  7. #82
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Diligent study shows it is NOT impossible for the MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent - in fact it proves it.
    No, it doesn't. The facts prove otherwise and that's the truth.

  8. #83
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    No, it doesn't. The facts prove otherwise and that's the truth.
    Nope. You have made an ASSUMPTION that because Rev 21 speaks of no more death, that this applies to the entire NHNE from its inception to the whole world even though the quote is from Isaiah 65 which states it SOLELY in regards to Jerusalem. As you read Rev 21 & 22 it is CLEAR to anyone who does NOT make that assumption, that it is NJ which is being spoken about. The sinners are outside, those who are outside and wash gain entry to the tree of life etc. The angels are on guard at each gate.
    FACTS point to the MK being the START of the NHNE from NJ.

  9. #84
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Ok. I have presented this numerous times but this time we will start by focusing on the word "WE".

    Surely interpeting grammer the "WE" would include Paul would it not?

    Paul states the following.....

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Paul knew he and those whom he was speaking would not be present when this events takes place

    1. Paul had the gift of prophesy.

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge;

    Please don't think for one minute Paul was confused in thinking he would be living on the earth during I Thess 4.

    2. Paul says he would not be present.

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    Paul knew ALL myteries and so too those he was speaking and that it would not occur until the Lord comes as a thief in the night. In which prior many other things needed to occur as well.

    So if Paul is part of the "WE" which he is, and of course this event did not occur prior to his death, then the only understanding is that the WE refers to the "dead in Christ" in which of course Paul will be part.

    The dead in Christ are the alive and remain once resurrected.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (Paul and those whom he is speaking which shall be dead) which are alive (upon resurrection) and remain (after judgment) shall be caught up together with them (those already in the grave) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    WE..........As in Christians. Since only the Father knows, why would anyone assume Paul knew? He knew the basic facts he was told, as i the Man of Sin must show up before the Day of the Lord and the Church would be Raptured before the Anti-Christ shows up.

    Could all those things have happened in Paul's lifetime? Sure, so in his mind he might have been a part of it, thus he said WE as in Christians who are alive at the tome of the Rapture.

  10. #85
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    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. You have made an ASSUMPTION that because Rev 21 speaks of no more death, that this applies to the entire NHNE from its inception to the whole world even though the quote is from Isaiah 65 which states it SOLELY in regards to Jerusalem. As you read Rev 21 & 22 it is CLEAR to anyone who does NOT make that assumption, that it is NJ which is being spoken about. The sinners are outside, those who are outside and wash gain entry to the tree of life etc. The angels are on guard at each gate.
    FACTS point to the MK being the START of the NHNE from NJ.
    You start a new OP on this topic so others can join in. I would like us to focus exclusively on this subject in a new than as a side track here. We are doing right now is claim and counterclaim, assumptions and vice versa. Isaiah 65 says NHNE, the question we must ask ourselves is, is the New Earth limited to Jerusalem or is a replacement of this corrupt earth? If it is the whole earth (as I believe) then you have no leg to stand.

    I understand NJ to be limited to Jerusalem, but NHNE is more far-reaching.

  11. #86

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Diligent study shows it is NOT impossible for the MK, NJ and NHNE to be concurrent - in fact it proves it.
    I personally disagree but we’ve been over this lol.

  12. #87

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I get all of that. So when exactly are you saying the end mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is meaning? 1, 2, or 3 in your list above?
    After the next age ends when the Gwtj ends and NJ is presented in the NHNE as Father dwells among men.

  13. #88

    Re: WE which are alive and remain - includes Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. You have made an ASSUMPTION that because Rev 21 speaks of no more death, that this applies to the entire NHNE from its inception to the whole world even though the quote is from Isaiah 65 which states it SOLELY in regards to Jerusalem. As you read Rev 21 & 22 it is CLEAR to anyone who does NOT make that assumption, that it is NJ which is being spoken about. The sinners are outside, those who are outside and wash gain entry to the tree of life etc. The angels are on guard at each gate.
    FACTS point to the MK being the START of the NHNE from NJ.
    The Angels aren’t on guard...you add that.

    The gates are actually open in NJ at all times.

    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    And why is that?
    Because only those who are written in the Lambs book of life are present as the book was used in the GWTJ in judgement before NJ even came out of heaven from God, meaning such things have already been cast into the Lof.

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