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Thread: Who are Gog and Magog?

  1. #61

    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Interesting thoughts.
    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Some interesting ideas here. Only issue: I don't see any translation that puts "king Gog" in Amos 7:1 and it isn't in the Hebrew either.
    Thank you. It is taken from the Septuagint which is a 3rd-1st century BC translation of the Hebrew to Greek.

  2. #62
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    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Thank you. It is taken from the Septuagint which is a 3rd-1st century BC translation of the Hebrew to Greek.
    Ok. I don't know where it's getting that from. As I said, it isn't in the Hebrew and no other translation has it. Aside from that though, your ideas were different enough to be interesting.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  3. #63

    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Ok. I don't know where it's getting that from. As I said, it isn't in the Hebrew and no other translation has it. Aside from that though, your ideas were different enough to be interesting.
    You are correct to be suspicious. It is the sole source of that rendering that I know of. Even later 1st centuries revisions and translations from the Septuagint don't use it. It is a curiosity and debate why it appears in this one case.

    Since the Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew scrolls before they were destroyed in 70ad it is generally considered a strong source to the original Hebrew, even authoritative regarding the Torah in particular. It is particularly regarded highly by Christians since Jesus and the apostles quoted from it in the New Testament. "The Hebrew" that remains today was compiled in the 9th, 10th or 11th century AD by the Masoretic sect and is not considered infallible. It is very good but contains mistakes in places and deliberate changes to the text particularly concerning the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus as prophecied Messiah. Today scholars will compare primarily the Septuagint, the Masoretic text and the found texts from the Qumran discovery to try and ascertain what the original Hebrew texts actually said. I understand that Judaism considers the Masoretic text authoritative, but the rest of the scholarly world does not. You may already know all this as you say you are looking at other sources as well, but it seems you are referring to 'the Hebrew' as if it is authoritative. Most people outside Judaism would disagree. In many or most cases it is the best choice perhaps, and it is the primary source for most Old Testament translations, but not infallible. In our case, with the Septuagint being the only witness for the Gog reading of Amos 7:1 and with many witnesses against, you are most likely right that the Septuagint is incorrect in this case. It is still quite a curiosity as to why IMO.

    There is enough internal evidence in Ezekiel 38 without using Amos 7:1 IMO to draw the conclusion that the Gog army is an allegorical 'locust army'.

    Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

    The army is said to 'ascend'. As locust move to their next target they will take flight. The army is compared to a 'cloud' as in Rev 9:3. As locust fly in great numbers and closely packed together they appear as a cloud or smoke in the sky as they descend upon a field. The army 'covers the land' which is another characteristic of the locust shown in Exodus 10:12. The army is described as being composed of 'bands' which is how the movement of locust is described in Prov 30:27. As one group destroys a portion of the field another group advance in front of them to destroy the next section.

    If you can conclude that the Ezekiel army is an allegorical 'locust army' then Prov 30:27 will apply to them, they will have no king. Gog will then become an allegory, as does Abbadon of Rev 9. The legendary invisible King Gygus of Lydia (as Gog), which Ezekiel's audience was undoubtedly familiar with, would be used to affirm this allegory IMO.

    The actual 'attack' on Israel comes from every direction around them and not 'the north'. If you consider how protest uprisings normally occur this would fit the pattern. Protests would normally first begin in the area where the catalyst occurs and then others who are offended by whatever event has happened would be drawn in from all directions around the area. So for example if something occurred in Israel that greatly offended the Muslim world. Muslims within Israel would first begin to protest and then others would come from everywhere into Israel or at least be pulled as closely as they could get. As in most protests the outrage against the original offense turns violent and quickly turns to looting and property damage. There's really no logic to it at that point and protesters will just attack and destroy randomly, even in their own neighborhoods, which may explain why the war is 'brother against brother' after God's intervention. As this whole 'war' seems to be about nothing more than looting and destroying I think my theory is reasonable.

  4. #64
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    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Since the Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew scrolls before they were destroyed in 70ad it is generally considered a strong source to the original Hebrew, even authoritative regarding the Torah in particular. It is particularly regarded highly by Christians since Jesus and the apostles quoted from it in the New Testament. "The Hebrew" that remains today was compiled in the 9th, 10th or 11th century AD by the Masoretic sect and is not considered infallible. It is very good but contains mistakes in places and deliberate changes to the text particularly concerning the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus as prophecied Messiah.
    Those wacky Jews, is there anything they won't do?

    I gotta find someplace else to hang out.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  5. #65

    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Those wacky Jews, is there anything they won't do?

    I gotta find someplace else to hang out.
    The Septuagint and the MT are both wholly Jewish works. So yeah, either some wacky Jew inserted "king Gog" into Amos 7:1, or a different wacky Jew removed him from it. My only point is we can't anymore look at a single source as the final authority. I certainly don't mean to offend you, and I'm deeply sorry if I did. It wasn't intentional.

  6. #66
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    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    The Septuagint and the MT are both wholly Jewish works.
    Only the Pentateuch (Five books of Moses) of the Septuagint is a Jewish work. All the rest is of unknown authorship and certainly not "authoritative".

    deliberate changes to the text particularly concerning the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus as prophecied Messiah.
    This was the "wacky thing" I was referring to. We can't even have a heartfelt discussion on a biblical prophecy without Jews being accused of something nefarious.

    I certainly don't mean to offend you, and I'm deeply sorry if I did.
    Not offended. Just...maybe I need a break.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  7. #67

    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Only the Pentateuch (Five books of Moses) of the Septuagint is a Jewish work. All the rest is of unknown authorship and certainly not "authoritative".
    Yes I believe that the Septuagint is full of mistakes and not authoritative, I agree.

    This was the "wacky thing" I was referring to. We can't even have a heartfelt discussion on a biblical prophecy without Jews being accused of something nefarious.
    The OT prophecies potentially fulfilled by Jesus are just the most famous deviations between the MT and the Septuagint. That's why I brought it up, not to say Jews are bad. Sorry if it came across that way.

    Not offended. Just...maybe I need a break.
    OK, glad you're not offended. God bless

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    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    The following are all ancient boundaries of modern day Turkey:
    Cimmerian, Northern Turkey
    Meshech, Western Turkey
    Tubal, Eastern Turkey
    House of Togarmah, Southern Turkey
    Gomer, Northeast Turkey

    Modern day Turkey was not established as a Republic until 1922, revealing Gog, the land of Magog to an end time generation...

    There is another question to be asked, and the answer will bring all the pieces of Ezekiel 38 & 39 together..
    What is the difference between "latter years" and "latter days?"

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    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker_truth View Post
    The following are all ancient boundaries of modern day Turkey:
    Cimmerian, Northern Turkey
    Meshech, Western Turkey
    Tubal, Eastern Turkey
    House of Togarmah, Southern Turkey
    Gomer, Northeast Turkey

    Modern day Turkey was not established as a Republic until 1922, revealing Gog, the land of Magog to an end time generation...

    There is another question to be asked, and the answer will bring all the pieces of Ezekiel 38 & 39 together..
    What is the difference between "latter years" and "latter days?"
    Ezekiel 38:9 says that 'Gomer' comes from the far reaches of the North. I would say this means from Siberia, or Kazakhstan.

    What brings the situation ready for this attack, is all the Lord's people living in all of the holy Land, which is prophesied to happen soon after the Sixth Seal depopulation of the entire Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeramiah 10:18, +
    They will be living undefended, in peace and prosperity, blessed by the Lord; His people, in His Land. Gog's reason for his attack, is to get loot, but God's reason is for Him to display His power to His people and the world. Ezekiel 38:23

  10. #70

    Re: Who are Gog and Magog?

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker_truth View Post
    The following are all ancient boundaries of modern day Turkey:
    Cimmerian, Northern Turkey
    Meshech, Western Turkey
    Tubal, Eastern Turkey
    House of Togarmah, Southern Turkey
    Gomer, Northeast Turkey

    Modern day Turkey was not established as a Republic until 1922, revealing Gog, the land of Magog to an end time generation...

    There is another question to be asked, and the answer will bring all the pieces of Ezekiel 38 & 39 together..
    What is the difference between "latter years" and "latter days?"
    You also have people coming from Tarshish....thought to be southern Spain
    Libya, Cush, Put...Africa
    Sheba and Dedan....Saudi Arabia
    Persia.....Iran
    And Turkey as you point out

    People are coming from every direction towards Israel, not just the north

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