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Thread: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

  1. #16
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I agree with TheDivineWatermark's remarks. And I will add my own rebuttal.

    First of all, I appreciate that you see me as a learned person, in some respects. (I am not "scholarly" in any means, and have never gone to any seminary or Theological school - however I just may do that.) However, I have studded heavily over 25 years in end times prophecy, and have sought the Lord over and over to sort out my misunderstandings, when He shows me verses that contradict what I believe. And He is faithful, but sometime I have to scrap a lot of what I believe and start from where He leads, instead of where I believe. And thus, through the years, the understanding I have is now on a solid foundation, where scripture backs up scripture. But the parts I build upon these can still be unstable, and I may need to hand it back to the Lord to sort out in the future.

    One of these solid foundations is the fact that Jesus is speaking directly to the Disciples in Matthew 24:3-51, with no other people listening. The disciples are BELIEVERS, and they are UNLEARNED (not scholarly, but rather simple) JEWS. However they NOW have some Torah knowledge beyond the teachings of the Rabbis (who do not have divine knowledge of what they read) in the Temple.

    Another solid understanding is that the disciples ask a specific set of questions SECRETLY to Jesus:

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Jesus answered both these questions but focused on the FACT of "the sign of his coming", in relation to "the end of the world".

    Now, I will grant that Matt 24:1-2 is certainly about 70 AD.

    I will also grant that Matt 24:4-14 can represent the last 2000 years, however it also represents the 1st 3 Seals of Revelation 6, AND IT IS IN THE EXACT SAME ORDER, so it is END TIMES.

    Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many...11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


    Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


    Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


    All three Seals are represented in Matt 24:4-14.

    It is plain as day to me that Jesus is speaking about the end times.
    So you overlook all the facts just because they have a few verses that are like-minded? So during the 2000 year period there will be much famine, and likewise during the 7 year period there will be famine. Matthew Verses 5 and 11 do not match Matthew 24:24 therefore it has nothing to do with Rev. 6:2. There will of course be WARS via the Anti-Christ, but there have been MULTIPLE WARS during the 2000 year Church Age period have there not? You are conflating these scriptures brother, just because scriptures are similar doesn't mean they have to be about the same thing, the proof then has to be found via further study.

    I have done a full exegesis on Matthew 24 brother, because like you it seemed convoluted by many people, some saw it this way, others that way, I knew that there was a change after verse 14, but many others always told me it was all a part of the end times, I could not see that so I decided to do an in depth year long study.

    Most people see two questions here, I see three questions, that's a minor point.

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world? (THREE QUESTIONS)

    {{ The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED (When shall these things be?) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming......And the Third question was and what will be the SIGN (because they used AND) of the end of the world. So they wanted to know about the Temples destruction, and the sign of Jesus' coming and the sign of the end of the world.

    If Jesus is going to give them a sign/understanding of these events, wouldn't he walk them through the whole 2000 year period? I think he would, and clearly does. Lets go through a few of the verses to see why I believe as I do. And we know its a 2000 year period, its 2017 . Well Almost 2000 years. }}

    Lets move on now to the points Jesus was making unto the Disciples........................Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    {{ Jesus here is warning the disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES and figured the Messiah would come and save them, put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. The Jews thought correctly that Rome was the Fourth Beast so they expected the Little Horn to come forth they did not understand the 2000 year GAP. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah/Christ, but they will not be me Returning, it is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the END IS NOT YET !! Jesus wanted the disciples to understand this sacking of Jerusalem and the Temple was not the END TIME Sacking where Jesus returns to SAVE ISRAEL (Zechariah ch. 14). If they had returned to Jerusalem they no doubt would have been killed.

    This fulfilled John 5:43 where Jesus said..............................John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. }}

    Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    {{ Then Jesus seems to shift past the lives of the Disciples and into a futuristic, 2000 year period of time. He speaks about Nations against Nations, Kingdoms against Kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and he says these are the beginnings of sorrows !! The Greek word used for sorrows implies BIRTH PANGS, this is Jesus telling the disciples that all of these things must happen first, and that will be the Sign (BIRTH PANG) that the end is Near. The next few verses are also covering the full 2000 year period, speaking at times about the disciples, and at other times about the whole 2000 year period, until the Rapture. But its past 70 AD, that is when most of the disciples were eventually martyred. ALL of these signs must come to pass BEFORE JESUS RETURNS, not some, but every sign must come to pass. The Birth Pangs are like the signs Jesus is mentioning, his Second Coming MUST SEE EVERY SIGN HE MENTIONS fulfilled first. }}

    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    {{ I think this is mainly Jesus telling his disciples their coming fate. Many people would betray them, and most all of the disciples would become martyrs, save John and a couple of others. They don't kill you if they don't hate you right? And no doubt, many betrayed them, like Judas betrayed Jesus. }}

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    {{ This is speaking of the overall period from 70 AD until the Rapture. Jesus throws this in to let everyone know, there will be many False Prophets (Jonestown/David Koresh, and cults like it have risen over the 2000 year period since Jesus' death AND MANY FALSE TEACHERS/PREACHERS) and because of sin or the acceptance thereof, (at the End Times or Birth Pangs) the love of Many shall wax Cold.....Abortion, Murder, Homosexuality being pushed as normal etc. Then Jesus says, BUT..... out of all of these things I have described unto you all, (Matthew 24:4-13) he that endures all things that might come upon him, he that KEEPS THE FAITH until the end (of his life....THIS DECEIVES MANY HERE, THEY THINK IT MEANS END TIME, it means the end of ONES LIFE, Endure until the end like Paul said, RUN THE FULL RACE) the same shall be saved. In other words if we turn from God/Jesus and return unto the world, we will be cast out of Jesus' mouth as lukewarm. We must overcome Satan by the Blood of the Lamb, we can not turn back to living a sinful life, we must endure all of our temptations. It doesn't mean we will not Sin..........It just means we can not turn back unto a sinful lifestyle. WE MUST ENDURE IN CHRIST until the end. Amen }}

    This above is Jesus answering the first of the three questions, "When shall these things be"? He walks them through the full 2000 year period between when he was alive, though the 70 AD event, until he calls the Church home at the Rapture. The destruction of the Temple is spoken of but Jesus says, the end is not yet !! Then Jesus finishes the 2000 year period. The Rapture scriptures are seen in Matthew 24:36-51. Jesus told about it but filled no one in on the details, this was supposed to be Paul's ministry. But Jesus answered their question so the future Jews of the end times would understand they had missed the Rapture.

    On to the 70th Week of Daniel now. The 3 1/2 years of Peace/Security followed by the 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. The Rapture happens after verse 13 or 14. In my honest opinion Matthew 24:36-51, actually belongs right here, but Matthew was not given that understanding, of course.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    {{ Verse 14 kind of belongs with verses Matthew 4-13, but it can also go on this side of the 2000 year divide. It straddles the gap so to speak. The Gospel must be preached unto all the world, then the END WILL COME !! This is very clear, once the Church has preached the Gospel unto all the world for a witness to Jesus' saving Grace, then and only then can the end times come upon us. Jesus then goes on to tell us/disciples about this end time period. He warns the Jewish peoples that when they see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, they should Flee Jerusalem. THIS IS AN END TIME EVENT.........There is no doubt about that at all. Now Jesus must answer the next two questions, what will be the sign of thy coming, and what will be the end (of the age) of time. }}

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    {{ Jesus is telling his disciples, and thus warning the Jewish peoples of the coming tribulation period about what to look for. He is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets tricks when they try to entice Israel to come out of their safe space (Petra?), where God says in Revelation 12 that he will protect them for 1260 days, from the Dragon (Satan) via his Beast (Anti-Christ). By this time Israel have accepted Jesus as their Messiah. (Malachi 4:5-6) So of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet wants to deceive the Jews into thinking Jesus has returned (because they want to kill them, of course) and is in the desert or secret chambers somewhere !! But Jesus says do not fall for their lies, I will not be in the desert or in a secret chambers....I will be coming from the Eastern Skies for all to see. Amen, So he returns after the Rapture with the Church and Angels. }}

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (Seal 6), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (Vial 6 & 7), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    {{ So, Jesus tells the Jewish peoples the signs of his coming and when the end shall be. This is the end of the age, no doubt. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days (Troubles/Jacobs Trouble), these signs will be in the sky and then you will see me coming in the clouds from the Eastern skies, and all the tribes and nations will see the Glory of my Coming. And the Angels will gather THE ELECT from the Four Corners of Heaven, [where the Church has been for SEVEN YEARS, Marrying the Lamb] and we will Return on White Horses with Jesus Christ just as Rev. 19 says. So every sign Jesus mentioned has to come to pass, NOT SOME, BUT EVERY SIGN HAS TO COME TO PASS FIRST. SEE BELOW !!}}

    Signs that must be fulfilled before Jesus' return !!

    1. false chirsts (Matthew 24:5) are put forth by the Jewish leaders (This fulfilled John 5:43)
    2. Temples Destruction.
    3. Jerusalem Sacked
    4. Jews Dispersed
    5. Many wars over a 2000 some odd year period (Nations against Nations/Kingdoms against Kingdoms)
    6. Famines/Earthquakes/Pestilences over a 2000 year period !!
    7. There will be 2000 years of false preachers and false Rabbis/false teachers. (Matthew 24:11)
    8. The Disciples must be Martyred and betrayed.
    9. The Gospel must be preached unto ALL THE WORLD !! (Then the END WILL COME.....The 7 Year Tribulation period after the Rapture)

    More signs that must come before Jesus' Second Coming, but after the Rapture

    10. The Abomination of Desolation
    11. Israel must FLEE into the Wilderness/Petra I think.
    12. There will be GREAT TRIBULATION such as has never been seen before, thus God chose a 7 Year Period in order to PRESERVE LIFE on earth.
    13. THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet will work MIRACLES & WONDERS that will deceive many.
    14. Jesus tells us in verse 28 the Church (Eagles) will be gathered at the Carcass (Armageddon) See Rev. 19, the FOWLS are called to the Marriage Supper to FEAST !!
    15. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days [start] we shall see the SUN DARKENED.....The Moon turned BLOOD RED.....and the Stars of Heaven SHAKEN (Satan and his Angels cast down unto earth).

    THEN and ONLY THEN can Jesus Christ RETURN....All, as in everyone of these SIGNS MUST COME TO PASS before Jesus can return. Thus the Generation that sees ALL OF THESE SIGNS can only be the TRIBULATION GENERATION, the Church is in Heaven, the Disciples are long gone, as a TRIBULATION Jew/Saint you will have SEEN or UNDERSTOOD all of these signs !! You will have SEEN VIA HISTORY, the Temples Destruction, the Dispersion of the Jews, the GREAT WARS, the false preachers and rabbis for 2000 years is a given, the Tribulation Saints will have seen or UNDERSTOOD that the Gospel of Jesus was preached unto all the world, that all of Jesus' disciples were pretty much Martyred........BUT........Unlike ANYONE BEFORE THEM, the Tribulation Saints will have seen the Abomination of Desolation, they will have seen Israel FLEE unto the Wilderness (they will probably be the ones that flee Judea) they will have seen the TROUBLES Daniel/Jesus spoke of, they will have seen the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, they will have SEEN FIRST HAND the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red and the Heaven SHAKEN.........They know by now Satan has been CAST DOWN !! So they have seen all of these SIGNS !! Jesus tells them in the Parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-35 that when they see all of these signs come to pass SUMMER IS NIGH !!! When they see ALL OF THESE SIGNS, Jesus will be near to his return !!

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    WHAT GENERATION? The Generation that sees EVERY SIGN, which means THAT GENERATION must live during the Tribulation Period !!


    Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because he knows 90-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the end times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

    So Matthew 36-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny : (This should come just after Matthew 24:13-14)

    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    {{ This of course happens right before the tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus' SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised.

    Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

    Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen. }}

    Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus time/death to 70 AD.

    Matthew 24:7-13/14 is the 2000 year period from Jesus to the Rapture.

    Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew thought it should be with the Second Coming.

    Matthew 24:15-26 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christs time.

    Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen.
    Last edited by Revelation Man; Jan 18th 2018 at 09:54 PM.

  2. #17

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post


    Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 90-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the end times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

    So Matthew 36-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, [...]

    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    [...]

    Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.
    As in the case of Noah's day, it was the ones that "they knew not until the flood came and took them all away," it was "they" [the ones "taken"] who "knew not" [not Noah, he "knew" and prepared] until the flood ["judgment"] came and took them [the ones being judged] all away [took them all away in judgment]". Noah and crew were "left" to "[actively] FILL the earth" [Gen9:1] (just as it says in Daniel 2:35 of that future time, following the trib, "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" [the MK time period, commencing upon His Second Coming to the earth]).

    This is not a Rapture passage nor context, but His Second Coming to the earth. (Matt22:7-9 SEQUENCE, meaning v.8 equals what was later given in "The Revelation" to reveal "further information" FOLLOWING His ascension, and following the 70ad events, ABOUT the details and TIMING of His Second Coming to the earth, what He didn't "know" BEFORE His Resurrection/ascension [Matt24:36 and parallels])

  3. #18
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    As in the case of Noah's day, it was the ones that "they knew not until the flood came and took them all away," it was "they" [the ones "taken"] who "knew not" [not Noah, he "knew" and prepared] until the flood ["judgment"] came and took them [the ones being judged] all away [took them all away in judgment]". Noah and crew were "left" to "[actively] FILL the earth" [Gen9:1] (just as it says in Daniel 2:35 of that future time, following the trib, "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" [the MK time period, commencing upon His Second Coming to the earth]).

    This is not a Rapture passage nor context, but His Second Coming to the earth. (Matt22:7-9 SEQUENCE, meaning v.8 equals what was later given in "The Revelation" to reveal "further information" FOLLOWING His ascension, and following the 70ad events, ABOUT the details and TIMING of His Second Coming to the earth, what He didn't "know" BEFORE His Resurrection/ascension [Matt24:36 and parallels])
    No that is just something you have convinced yourself is true through other men (interpretations), because I heard that 30 years ago. Every logical point I make is ignored because you are predisposed to a certain position.

    Try going point by point against my conclusions, because they can not be dispelled. Everyone knows the Second coming will be 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation happens, no one will be surprised. No one will be marrying before the Second Coming. Its NONSENSICAL.
    Last edited by Revelation Man; Jan 18th 2018 at 09:56 PM.

  4. #19

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    No that is just something you have convinced yourself is true through other men, because I heard that 30 years ago. Every logical point I make is ignored because you are predisposed to a certain position.
    I heard YOUR viewpoint 45 years ago. So what? What we are discussing here is, what does the text tell us? That was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Try going point by point against my conclusions, because they can not be dispelled. Everyone knows the Second coming will be 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation happens, no one will be surprised. No one will be marrying before the Second Coming. Its NONSENSICAL.
    You don't think any of the ones "gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army" (Rev19:19; 16:14-16) had any Wheaties that day before they "set out" to this task? Or a burger the night before? They've been starving for 3.5 yrs up to this point??

    No, I believe the Matthew passage is telling that they will disregard His Word, just as those in Noah's day did (God's Word via Noah, a preacher of righteousness, by means of his "preparing the ark" over the course of some DURATION OF TIME. They disregarded that, saying 'there's never been rain before, and we don't believe judgment is real'... disregarding every "sign/indicator" provided by God which led up to that point [the ark-building, by a preacher of righteousness (see Dan12:1-3 regarding that FUTURE time period, re: LIVING-Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations IN/WITHIN the trib[and the WISE among them "turning many to righteousness"], same as Ezek37:12-14,21-23 and Hos5:15-6:3 and Rom11:15[25], ETC), the animals gathering to the ark, etc... every indicator was DISREGARDED by them [so "they knew not until the flood came and took them [the judged IN THIS CONTEXT] all away," and so they simply went on with "the stuff of life" (as viewed apart from God and His Word), disregarding God's Word VIA NOAH (re: coming final judgment)])

  5. #20
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Bible prophecy is a very controversial subject and not easy to understand.
    1 Corinthians 14:22b says that prophecy is intended for us Christian believers.

    But the many and varied discussions, theories and doctrines point up the disturbing fact of how we Christians often have opposing views of what God has planned for our future.
    There is only one track, one Plan that will actually unfold and that could be quite soon. So one view is right and all the rest are wrong.
    Basically; we can say that the right way, is the one that conforms to scripture. But as Isaiah 28:13 says about prophecy: Here a little, there a little..... it is difficult to work out a correct sequence.

    Revelation does give us that in the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, then the glorious Return of Jesus and after He has reigned for a 1000 years comes the final Judgement, then Eternity.
    Revelation also is the only Book that warns us to not mess around with it. Revelation 22:18-19

    What is described in the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, are things that can and will be literally fulfilled. [Allowing for the few metaphorical descriptions; like locusts in Rev 9:7]
    So; with the Seals, we are told that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He was found worthy to open the Seals and He commenced to do so. Revelation 6:1
    It should be clear to all that the first five Seals are open. We HAVE had wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty and the proof is the Fifth Seal, where the souls of all the Christian martyrs since Stephen are kept under the heavenly Altar.

    Therefore, the next prophesied event must be the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17
    We have been given plenty of warning and details about this sudden and shocking Day that the Lord will instigate. It will change the world and interestingly, Isaiah 29:23-24 says; then the Lord's children, the work of His hands, born again Christians; will praise Him for their protection and only then, will we all fully understand His plans and purposes.

  6. #21

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:
    I believe Revelations is not about the future but about the past, things the early Christians understood but modern man does not.

  7. #22
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by widowsmite View Post
    I believe Revelations is not about the future but about the past, things the early Christians understood but modern man does not.
    Agree. It’s was written for those living prior to the “end of the world” for the Apostate Jews of the first century. Neros name can be spelled 666 or 616 depending on how what names you use. That’s why some manuscripts have the number of the beast as 616.




  8. #23
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.
    Agree.

    ]What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:
    I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.
    I believe that 90%+ of the BOR is about 70 AD and the destruction of the apostate Jews. The converted Jews fled to the hills and started the Church. Lots of evidence to support this view.

    I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.
    Matt 24 is all about 70AD. Written for them in the first century.

    I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.
    Not our future events. All fulfilled and history.

    I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.
    Agree. The only “rapture” is at the end of the world.

    I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.
    The “end times” were all about 70AD when the old covenant and the heretical views of the Jews living at that time were destroyed by God ( for good reason, they dropped the ball )

    I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46
    We should not be concern with the end of the world but with doing our Lords work,the Great Commission. All else will work itself out if we do this. ( And live like men who have been forgiven. )


    I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.
    The elect, the remnant, are the Jews who were saved from the fires and tribulation of 70 AD

    I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.
    Jesus will rule the earth forever, once we get off our butts and start reaching the masses. WE are the temple, not built with human hands, not a building! The temple was destroyed for a reason. It is not to be rebuilt. WE are the rebuild. He has allowed the Jews to exist all this time, what a blessing for them. So much time to repent. WE are the great nation that will eventually rule the world. The Jews can join in anytime now. Then, they will be truely blessed and so powerful that they can’t be stopped. As it sits now, we think there is going to be another holocaust, correct ?

    I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.
    Your premise of this post was spot on. “Preconceived ideas lead to out uderstanding of end times”

    Bravo, Good insights. The dispensational view on escatolgy, is _new_. The early Church fathers believed as I do.

    Why believe the new theology of John Darby and the Scofield Bible when the old theology works just fine?




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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I heard YOUR viewpoint 45 years ago. So what? What we are discussing here is, what does the text tell us? That was my point.
    Well I only did this exegesis last year, not 45 years ago when I was 9.... My point was you made the same erroneous argument that has been around for eons, and when I juxtaposition that against the fact that NO ONE in that time period will be acting as in the days of Noah by marrying, partying etc. etc. (meaning living normal lives), and instead they will be trying to run away from the Wrath of God just like those in the flood were trying to run to high ground, but could not find high enough ground. When the FLOOD CAME is = to the Tribulation period, in neither case would anyone be marrying/partying, they will of course be trying to get to a safe place in both instances, which means what Jesus is speaking of can ONLY be the Rapture. You see I use logical deductive reasoning in analysis. If it don't fit you must acquit. To be honest, when I first heard that argument 30 years ago about the flood taking them away I knew it was slight of hand semantics, I saw it right off. The point remains, it doesn't pass the logistics test of reasoning.

    You don't think any of the ones "gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army" (Rev19:19; 16:14-16) had any Wheaties that day before they "set out" to this task? Or a burger the night before? They've been starving for 3.5 yrs up to this point??
    You are missing the whole point of the passage. It means things will not be NORMAL !! People will not be HAPPY as per usual. People will not be going about their business as normal either AFTER THE FLOOD............or AFTER THE Day of the Lord comes upon the world. Before the flood they laughed at Nosh and him building the Ark. They laugh at us now when we warn them about impending doom and the coming perils, they scoff and say "Where is the promise of his coming". THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMES.

    So you miss the point that is being made, everything will CHANGE drastically after both events. The FLOOD and the RAPTURE. Of course people have to eat but they will not throwing lavish feasts, going to 1000 dollar a meal diners, gathering for huge get together's/BBQ's. They will be hiding in a cave with cans of food from the wrath of God, that means they will be eating BUT NOT HAPPY. They will not be running around like NORMAL !! That's the whole point.

    No, I believe the Matthew passage is telling that they will disregard His Word, just as those in Noah's day did (God's Word via Noah, a preacher of righteousness, by means of his "preparing the ark" over the course of some DURATION OF TIME. They disregarded that, saying 'there's never been rain before, and we don't believe judgment is real'... disregarding every "sign/indicator" provided by God which led up to that point [the ark-building, by a preacher of righteousness (see Dan12:1-3 regarding that FUTURE time period, re: LIVING-Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations IN/WITHIN the trib[and the WISE among them "turning many to righteousness"], same as Ezek37:12-14,21-23 and Hos5:15-6:3 and Rom11:15[25], ETC), the animals gathering to the ark, etc... every indicator was DISREGARDED by them [so "they knew not until the flood came and took them [the judged IN THIS CONTEXT] all away," and so they simply went on with "the stuff of life" (as viewed apart from God and His Word), disregarding God's Word VIA NOAH (re: coming final judgment)])
    I laid out the whole chapter. It is what it is.

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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Well I only did this exegesis last year, nit 45 years ago when I was 9.... My point was you made the same erroneous argument that has been around for eons, and when I juxtaposition that against the fact that NO ONE in that time period will be acting as in the days of Noah by marrying, partying etc. etc. (meaning living normal lives), and instead they will be trying to run away from the Wrath of God just like those in the flood were trying to run to high ground, but could not find high enough ground. When the FLOOD CAME is = to the Tribulation period, in neither case would anyone be marrying/partying, they will of course be trying to get to a safe place in both instances, which means what Jesus is speaking of can ONLY be the Rapture. You see I use logical deductive reasoning in analysis. If it don't fit you must acquit. To be honest, when I first heard that argument 30 years ago about the flood taking them away I knew it was slight of hand semantics, I saw it right off. The point remains, it doesn't pass the logistics test of reasoning.



    You are missing the whole point of the passage. It means things will not be NORMAL !! People will not be HAPPY as per usual. People will not be going about their business as normal either AFTER THE FLOOD............or AFTER THE Day of the Lord comes upon the world. Before the flood they laughed at Moses and him building the Ark. They laugh at us now when we warn them about impending doom and the coming perils, they scoff and say "Where is the promise of his coming". THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMES.

    So you miss the point that is being made, everything will CHANGE drastically after both events. The FLOOD and the RAPTURE. Of course people have to eat but they will not throwing lavish feasts, going to 1000 dollar a meal diners, gather for huge get together's/BBQ's. They will be hiding in a cave with cans of food from the wrath of God, that means they will be eating BUT NOT HAPPY. They will not be running around like NORMAL !! That's the whole point.



    I laid out the whole chapter. It is what it is.
    At least you guys are arguing in the right thread. Just for the record nothing to me about Matthew 24:36-41 suggest "rapture". The disciples did not ask Jesus about the rapture they asked him about the second coming, why does someone have go point by point to drill that home.

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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by widowsmite View Post
    I believe Revelations is not about the future but about the past, things the early Christians understood but modern man does not.
    Except large portions of it have not yet happened like what's found in Rev 11, 13 and 19-22.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    At least you guys are arguing in the right thread. Just for the record nothing to me about Matthew 24:36-41 suggest "rapture". The disciples did not ask Jesus about the rapture they asked him about the second coming, why does someone have go point by point to drill that home.
    They asked him about his coming AND what will be the End. So Jesus answering the question has to give both accounts to be correct, there will be Jews that go through the Tribulation period and Jews who are Messianic Jews. They will of course not have the same experience. So when the question is asked, Jesus in order to be correct, needed to give both accounts of the future. How would they have known to ask hum about the Rapture? But He would have known there fate.

    The Disciples will be raised at the Rapture and return with Jesus at the Second Coming. So why wouldn't Jesus tell the the whole story? He wanted only Paul to understand the Rapture in full because he was going to be the Disciple unto the Gentiles.

    Also, you miss something here. There is actually no chapters and verses in the bible, they were added by the KJV or English translators. So technically I would say Matthew 24:1-35 is one story or chapter. I then think verse 36-51 goes with the next chapter about the 10 Virgins or maybe it is its own story and chapter unto itself. People forget that these chapters were but together 1500 years after they were written.

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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    There is actually no chapters and verses in the bible, they were added by the KJV or English translators.
    Stephen Langton divided the Bible into chapters in 1227.

    Robert Stephanus divided the verses in 1551.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    They asked him about his coming AND what will be the End.
    Exactly they didn't ask him about the rapture or even about the "resurrection" so neither answer would be on topic. I mean Pauls address to the church at Thes had to do DIRECTLY with the Ressurection same thing we find in 1 Corinth 15 both focus on the role of the dead and the resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    So Jesus answering the question has to give both accounts to be correct, there will be Jews that go through the Tribulation period and Jews who are Messianic Jews. They will of course not have the same experience. So when the question is asked, Jesus in order to be correct, needed to give both accounts of the future.
    We once more agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    How would they have known to ask him about the Rapture?
    Exactly they knew nothing about the "rapture" this question would probably have been the furthest thing from their mind. I mean Jesus hadn't even come back from the dead yet. Why would the rapture be something they know enough about to be asking questions (even though I really wish they DID ask this question). I mean just look at how confused they were in John 14.



    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    The Disciples will be raised at the Rapture and return with Jesus at the Second Coming.
    Agreed! But once more this isn't what the disciples where wondering/asking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    So why wouldn't Jesus tell them the whole story?
    He did tell them the whole story! But he clearly didn't speak in his olive discourse about any Rapture/Ressurection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    He wanted only Paul to understand the Rapture in full because he was going to be the Disciple unto the Gentiles.
    I don't believe him being a disciple to the gentiles was the "primary" reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Also, you miss something here. There is actually no chapters and verses in the bible, they were added by the KJV or English translators. So technically I would say Matthew 24:1-35 is one story or chapter. I then think verse 36-51 goes with the next chapter about the 10 Virgins or maybe it is its own story and chapter unto itself. People forget that these chapters were but together 1500 years after they were written.
    Not sure of the pertinence of the 10 Virgins to this but personally I don't believe that passage is about the rapture Either! I mean he clearly says the "Kingdom of Heaven" is likened onto 10 Virgins.

    I don't believe that "the rapture" and "The Kingdom of Heaven" are synonyms.

    IOW I don't believe we should rewrite Matthew 25:1 to say.

    Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps[a] and went to meet the bridegroom.

    Then(or At that time) the "Rapture" will be like 10 Virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.

    For some reason, this seems to be the way the majority of people understand this passage.

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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Exactly they didn't ask him about the rapture or even about the "resurrection" so neither answer would be on topic. I mean Pauls address to the church at Thes had to do DIRECTLY with the Ressurection same thing we find in 1 Corinth 15 both focus on the role of the dead and the resurrection.
    Did I proffer my opinion where it was intelligible? Because my point was Jesus had to tell them because many of them would be returning with him from Heaven, see Rev. ch. 19. He therefore must needs tell both about the rapture and the second coming. Only he did not want to reveal the secret of the rapture unto the Jews in general, it was for the Gentiles, so IMHO, he had to walk the fine line of giving them a demonstration of the rapture without telling them what it was. So if they want to know about his coming and the end he must needs tell them about the rapture also, even if subtle. Of course like I stated, this part of the chapter might not and probably doesn't even go with Matthew 24 in reality, the fig tree parable should end the story, because it tells us that EVERY SIGN must come to pass before his coming.

    Exactly they knew nothing about the "rapture" this question would probably have been the furthest thing from their mind. I mean Jesus hadn't even come back from the dead yet. Why would the rapture be something they know enough about to be asking questions (even though I really wish they DID ask this question). I mean just look at how confused they were in John 14.
    The point is even though they wouldn't know, Jesus would still have to tell them in order to explain in full about his second coming. In other words not understanding something doesn't mean when one inquires about an end time event that that which he doesn't understand will not be explained.

    Agreed! But once more this isn't what the disciples where wondering/asking about.
    But it doesn't matter, in order to give a full account of the end times everything must be touched on. Remember, this is more for the tribulation Saints than for the Disciples, WHY would the Disciples need to know they have to FLEE JUDEA? Well of course they don't need to know that, Jesus just explained it, and that has nothing to do with the Second Coming per se now does it? Or at least no more to do with the Second Coming than the Rapture.

    He did tell them the whole story! But he clearly didn't speak in his olive discourse about any Rapture/Ressurection.
    I don't know when this portion of what is Matthew 24 was spoken of but what I do know is this is the Rapture and can be nothing else.

    I don't believe him being a disciple to the gentiles was the "primary" reason.
    Well I do, its the Gentile Church that is Raptured for the most part so it makes sense to me God would give it to Paul. Its not for the Jews per se but for the bride of Christ.

    Not sure of the pertinence of the 10 Virgins to this but personally I don't believe that passage is about the rapture Either! I mean he clearly says the "Kingdom of Heaven" is likened onto 10 Virgins.

    I don't believe that "the rapture" and "The Kingdom of Heaven" are synonyms.

    IOW I don't believe we should rewrite Matthew 25:1 to say.

    Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps[a] and went to meet the bridegroom.

    Then(or At that time) the "Rapture" will be like 10 Virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.

    For some reason, this seems to be the way the majority of people understand this passage.
    If you place Matthew 24:36-51 with the 10 Virgins it might give it some further context in that direction. I clearly see the parable of the 10 Virgins as being about the Rapture, 5 are shut out of the wedding because they did not have enough oil (Holy Spirit) in their Lamp (Bodies) and thus they were shut out of the wedding.

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