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Thread: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

  1. #16
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I agree with TheDivineWatermark's remarks. And I will add my own rebuttal.

    First of all, I appreciate that you see me as a learned person, in some respects. (I am not "scholarly" in any means, and have never gone to any seminary or Theological school - however I just may do that.) However, I have studded heavily over 25 years in end times prophecy, and have sought the Lord over and over to sort out my misunderstandings, when He shows me verses that contradict what I believe. And He is faithful, but sometime I have to scrap a lot of what I believe and start from where He leads, instead of where I believe. And thus, through the years, the understanding I have is now on a solid foundation, where scripture backs up scripture. But the parts I build upon these can still be unstable, and I may need to hand it back to the Lord to sort out in the future.

    One of these solid foundations is the fact that Jesus is speaking directly to the Disciples in Matthew 24:3-51, with no other people listening. The disciples are BELIEVERS, and they are UNLEARNED (not scholarly, but rather simple) JEWS. However they NOW have some Torah knowledge beyond the teachings of the Rabbis (who do not have divine knowledge of what they read) in the Temple.

    Another solid understanding is that the disciples ask a specific set of questions SECRETLY to Jesus:

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Jesus answered both these questions but focused on the FACT of "the sign of his coming", in relation to "the end of the world".

    Now, I will grant that Matt 24:1-2 is certainly about 70 AD.

    I will also grant that Matt 24:4-14 can represent the last 2000 years, however it also represents the 1st 3 Seals of Revelation 6, AND IT IS IN THE EXACT SAME ORDER, so it is END TIMES.

    Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many...11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


    Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


    Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


    All three Seals are represented in Matt 24:4-14.

    It is plain as day to me that Jesus is speaking about the end times.
    So you overlook all the facts just because they have a few verses that are like-minded? So during the 2000 year period there will be much famine, and likewise during the 7 year period there will be famine. Matthew Verses 5 and 11 do not match Matthew 24:24 therefore it has nothing to do with Rev. 6:2. There will of course be WARS via the Anti-Christ, but there have been MULTIPLE WARS during the 2000 year Church Age period have there not? You are conflating these scriptures brother, just because scriptures are similar doesn't mean they have to be about the same thing, the proof then has to be found via further study.

    I have done a full exegesis on Matthew 24 brother, because like you it seemed convoluted by many people, some saw it this way, others that way, I knew that there was a change after verse 14, but many others always told me it was all a part of the end times, I could not see that so I decided to do an in depth year long study.

    Most people see two questions here, I see three questions, that's a minor point.

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world? (THREE QUESTIONS)

    {{ The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED (When shall these things be?) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming......And the Third question was and what will be the SIGN (because they used AND) of the end of the world. So they wanted to know about the Temples destruction, and the sign of Jesus' coming and the sign of the end of the world.

    If Jesus is going to give them a sign/understanding of these events, wouldn't he walk them through the whole 2000 year period? I think he would, and clearly does. Lets go through a few of the verses to see why I believe as I do. And we know its a 2000 year period, its 2017 . Well Almost 2000 years. }}

    Lets move on now to the points Jesus was making unto the Disciples........................Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    {{ Jesus here is warning the disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES and figured the Messiah would come and save them, put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. The Jews thought correctly that Rome was the Fourth Beast so they expected the Little Horn to come forth they did not understand the 2000 year GAP. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah/Christ, but they will not be me Returning, it is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the END IS NOT YET !! Jesus wanted the disciples to understand this sacking of Jerusalem and the Temple was not the END TIME Sacking where Jesus returns to SAVE ISRAEL (Zechariah ch. 14). If they had returned to Jerusalem they no doubt would have been killed.

    This fulfilled John 5:43 where Jesus said..............................John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. }}

    Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    {{ Then Jesus seems to shift past the lives of the Disciples and into a futuristic, 2000 year period of time. He speaks about Nations against Nations, Kingdoms against Kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and he says these are the beginnings of sorrows !! The Greek word used for sorrows implies BIRTH PANGS, this is Jesus telling the disciples that all of these things must happen first, and that will be the Sign (BIRTH PANG) that the end is Near. The next few verses are also covering the full 2000 year period, speaking at times about the disciples, and at other times about the whole 2000 year period, until the Rapture. But its past 70 AD, that is when most of the disciples were eventually martyred. ALL of these signs must come to pass BEFORE JESUS RETURNS, not some, but every sign must come to pass. The Birth Pangs are like the signs Jesus is mentioning, his Second Coming MUST SEE EVERY SIGN HE MENTIONS fulfilled first. }}

    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    {{ I think this is mainly Jesus telling his disciples their coming fate. Many people would betray them, and most all of the disciples would become martyrs, save John and a couple of others. They don't kill you if they don't hate you right? And no doubt, many betrayed them, like Judas betrayed Jesus. }}

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    {{ This is speaking of the overall period from 70 AD until the Rapture. Jesus throws this in to let everyone know, there will be many False Prophets (Jonestown/David Koresh, and cults like it have risen over the 2000 year period since Jesus' death AND MANY FALSE TEACHERS/PREACHERS) and because of sin or the acceptance thereof, (at the End Times or Birth Pangs) the love of Many shall wax Cold.....Abortion, Murder, Homosexuality being pushed as normal etc. Then Jesus says, BUT..... out of all of these things I have described unto you all, (Matthew 24:4-13) he that endures all things that might come upon him, he that KEEPS THE FAITH until the end (of his life....THIS DECEIVES MANY HERE, THEY THINK IT MEANS END TIME, it means the end of ONES LIFE, Endure until the end like Paul said, RUN THE FULL RACE) the same shall be saved. In other words if we turn from God/Jesus and return unto the world, we will be cast out of Jesus' mouth as lukewarm. We must overcome Satan by the Blood of the Lamb, we can not turn back to living a sinful life, we must endure all of our temptations. It doesn't mean we will not Sin..........It just means we can not turn back unto a sinful lifestyle. WE MUST ENDURE IN CHRIST until the end. Amen }}

    This above is Jesus answering the first of the three questions, "When shall these things be"? He walks them through the full 2000 year period between when he was alive, though the 70 AD event, until he calls the Church home at the Rapture. The destruction of the Temple is spoken of but Jesus says, the end is not yet !! Then Jesus finishes the 2000 year period. The Rapture scriptures are seen in Matthew 24:36-51. Jesus told about it but filled no one in on the details, this was supposed to be Paul's ministry. But Jesus answered their question so the future Jews of the end times would understand they had misse the Rapture.

    On to the 70th Week of Daniel now. The 3 1/2 years of Peace/Security followed by the 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. The Rapture happens after verse 13 or 14. In my honest opinion Matthew 24:36-51, actually belongs right here, but Matthew was not given that understanding, of course.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    {{ Verse 14 kind of belongs with verses Matthew 4-13, but it can also go on this side of the 2000 year divide. It straddles the gap so to speak. The Gospel must be preached unto all the world, then the END WILL COME !! This is very clear, once the Church has preached the Gospel unto all the world for a witness to Jesus' saving Grace, then and only then can the end times come upon us. Jesus then goes on to tell us/disciples about this end time period. He warns the Jewish peoples that when they see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, they should Flee Jerusalem. THIS IS AN END TIME EVENT.........There is no doubt about that at all. Now Jesus must answer the next two questions, what will be the sign of thy coming, and what will be the end (of the age) of time. }}

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    {{ Jesus is telling his disciples, and thus warning the Jewish peoples of the coming tribulation period and what to look for. He is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets tricks when they try to entice Israel to come out of their safe space (Petra), where God says in Revelation 12 that he will protect them for 1260 days, from the Dragon (Satan) via his Beast (Anti-Christ). Israel have accepted Jesus as their Messiah by this time. (Malachi 4:5-6) So of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet wants to deceive them into thinking Jesus has returned (because they want to kill them, of course) and is in the desert or secret chambers !! But Jesus says do not fall for their lies, I will not be in the desert or in a secret chambers....I will be coming from the Eastern Skies for all to see. Amen, after the Rapture with the Church and Angels. }}

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (Seal 6), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (Vial 6 & 7), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    {{ So, Jesus tells the Jewish peoples the signs of his coming and when the end shall be. This is the end of the age, no doubt. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days (Troubles/Jacobs Trouble), these signs will be in the sky and then you will see me coming in the clouds from the Eastern skies, and all the tribes and nations will see the Glory of my Coming. And the Angels will gather THE ELECT from the Four Corners of Heaven, [where the Church has been for SEVEN YEARS, Marrying the Lamb] and we will Return on White Horses with Jesus Christ just as Rev. 19 says. Amen. So every sign Jesus mentioned has to come to pass, NOT SOME, NUT EVERY SIGN HAS TO COME TO PASS FIRST. SEE BELOW !!}}

    Signs that must be fulfilled before Jesus' return !!

    1. false chirst put forth by the Jewish leaders (John 5:43 fulfilled)
    2. Temples Destruction.
    3. Jerusalem Sacked
    4. Jews Dispersed
    5. Many wars over a 2000 some odd year period (Nations against Nations/Kingdoms against Kingdoms)
    6. Famines/Earthquakes/Pestilences over a 2000 year period !!
    7. There will be 2000 years of false preachers and false Rabbis/false teachers.
    8. The Disciples must be Martyred and betrayed.
    9. The Gospel must be preached unto ALL THE WORLD !! (Then the END WILL COME.....The 7 Year Tribulation period after the Rapture)

    More signs that must come before Jesus' Second Coming, but after the Rapture

    10. The Abomination of Desolation
    11. Israel must FLEE into the Wilderness/Petra I think.
    12. There will be GREAT TRIBULATION such as has never been seen before, thus God chose a 7 Year Period in order to PRESERVE LIFE on earth.
    13. The Anti-Christ and False Prophet will work MIRACLES & WONDERS that will deceive many.
    14 Jesus tells us in verse 28 the Church (Eagles) will be gathered at the Carcass (Armageddon) See Rev. 19, the FOWLS are called to the Marriage Supper to FEAST !!
    15. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days [start] we shall see the SUN DARKENED.....The Moon turned BLOOD RED.....and the Stars of Heaven SHAKEN (Satan and his Angels cast down unto earth).

    THEN and ONLY THEN can Jesus Christ RETURN....All, as in everyone of these SIGNS MUST COME TO PASS before Jesus can return. Thus the Generation that sees ALL OF THESE SIGNS can only be the TRIBULATION GENERATION, the Church is in Heaven, the Disciples are long gone, as a TRIBULATION Jew/Saint you will have SEEN or UNDERSTOOD all of these signs !! You will have SEEN VIA HISTORY, the Temples Destruction, the Dispersion of the Jews, the GREAT WARS, the false preachers and rabbis for 2000 years is a given, the Tribulation Saints will have seen or UNDERSTOOD that the Gospel of Jesus was preached unto all the world, that all of Jesus' disciples were pretty much Martyred....BUT.............Unlike ANYONE BEFORE THEM, the Tribulation Saints will have seen the Abomination of Desolation, they will have seen Israel FLEE unto the Wilderness (they will probably be the ones that fled) they will have seen the TROUBLES Daniel/Jesus spoke of, they will have seen the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, they will have SEEN FIRST HAND the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red and the Heaven SHAKEN.....They know by now Satan has been CAST DOWN !! So they have seen all of these SIGNS !! Jesus tells them in the Parable in Matthew 24:32-35 that when they see this SUMMER IS NIGH !!! When they see ALL OF THESE SIGNS, Jesus will be near to his return !!

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    WHAT GENERATION? The Generation that sees EVERY SIGN, which means THAT GENERATION must live during the Tribulation Period !!


    Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 90-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the end times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

    So Matthew 36-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny : (This should come just after Matthew 24:13)

    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    {{ This of course happens right before the tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus' SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised.

    Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

    Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen. }}

    Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus to 70 AD.

    Matthew 24:7-13/14 is the 2000 year period from Jesus to the Rapture.

    Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew thought it should be with the Second Coming.

    Matthew 24:15-26 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christ time.

    Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen, Glory to God.

  2. #17

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post


    Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 90-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the end times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

    So Matthew 36-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, [...]

    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    [...]

    Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.
    As in the case of Noah's day, it was the ones that "they knew not until the flood came and took them all away," it was "they" [the ones "taken"] who "knew not" [not Noah, he "knew" and prepared] until the flood ["judgment"] came and took them [the ones being judged] all away [took them all away in judgment]". Noah and crew were "left" to "[actively] FILL the earth" [Gen9:1] (just as it says in Daniel 2:35 of that future time, following the trib, "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" [the MK time period, commencing upon His Second Coming to the earth]).

    This is not a Rapture passage nor context, but His Second Coming to the earth. (Matt22:7-9 SEQUENCE, meaning v.8 equals what was later given in "The Revelation" to reveal "further information" FOLLOWING His ascension, and following the 70ad events, ABOUT the details and TIMING of His Second Coming to the earth, what He didn't "know" BEFORE His Resurrection/ascension [Matt24:36 and parallels])

  3. #18
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    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    As in the case of Noah's day, it was the ones that "they knew not until the flood came and took them all away," it was "they" [the ones "taken"] who "knew not" [not Noah, he "knew" and prepared] until the flood ["judgment"] came and took them [the ones being judged] all away [took them all away in judgment]". Noah and crew were "left" to "[actively] FILL the earth" [Gen9:1] (just as it says in Daniel 2:35 of that future time, following the trib, "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" [the MK time period, commencing upon His Second Coming to the earth]).

    This is not a Rapture passage nor context, but His Second Coming to the earth. (Matt22:7-9 SEQUENCE, meaning v.8 equals what was later given in "The Revelation" to reveal "further information" FOLLOWING His ascension, and following the 70ad events, ABOUT the details and TIMING of His Second Coming to the earth, what He didn't "know" BEFORE His Resurrection/ascension [Matt24:36 and parallels])
    No that is just something you have convinced yourself is true through other men, because I heard that 30 years ago. Every logical point I make is ignored because you are predisposed to a certain position.

    Try going point by point against my conclusions, because they can not be dispelled. Everyone knows the Second coming will be 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation happens, no one will be surprised. No one will be marrying before the Second Coming. Its NONSENSICAL.

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