Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,464
    Blog Entries
    2

    Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.

    What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:

    I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.

    I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.

    I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.

    I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.

    I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.

    I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46

    I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.

    I believe that the 1st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 19 is specifically the 1st resurrection “IN THE NEW KINGDOM”. I believe there is another resurrection at the “coming of Christ” which happens according to Matthew 24, and is before the 1st Resurrection of Rev 19, and before Jesus sets up His throne on the Earth.

    I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.

    I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    857

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.

    What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:

    I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.

    I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.

    I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.

    I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.

    I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.

    I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46

    I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.

    I believe that the 1st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 19 is specifically the 1st resurrection “IN THE NEW KINGDOM”. I believe there is another resurrection at the “coming of Christ” which happens according to Matthew 24, and is before the 1st Resurrection of Rev 19, and before Jesus sets up His throne on the Earth.

    I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.

    I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.
    There are several pillars of truth that we all build upon, very few of which i have not had to alter muy understanding of, and that's because it affects how i understand other scriptures. I chose to let the scriptures explain themselves. The one that i feel is most pertinent, but the most abused scripture is the words of Peter that says that no scripture is of private interpretation. If you thought what i said was correct, then i just confirmed my point. It does not say that, but days this:

    *[[2Pe 1:19]] KJV* We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    *[[2Pe 1:20]] KJV* Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    It says that NO PROPHECY of scripture is of private interpretation, and not "scripture". Prophecy does not have the witness of ONE. Every word of prophecy is to be established at the witness of no less than TWO or THREE. It does not mean that every prophecy of scripture can necessarily established by some other prophet, [most do], but that some one will testify, with a prophetic voice, that it has been fulfilled. Specific words are the voice of one. Witnesses are the testimony of others, what the ONE has spoken. If there is not a 2nd witness to an "unfulfilled" prophecy, then you can bet that there will be. If you cannot find a confirmatory witness to God's word, then you should take it that it had not been fulfilled.

    My one pillar that has been the centerpiece of my road to understanding is Heb 12;26.

    *[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    *[[Heb 12:27]] KJV* And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  3. #3

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    There are several pillars of truth that we all build upon,

    [...]

    My one pillar that has been the centerpiece of my road to understanding is Heb 12;26.

    *[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    *[[Heb 12:27]] KJV* And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    Are you seeing a connection between Hebrews 12:26-27 and passages regarding future prophecy? If so, I may come back and speak to this further, I'm curious of your view on this. Thanks!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    857

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Are you seeing a connection between Hebrews 12:26-27 and passages regarding future prophecy? If so, I may come back and speak to this further, I'm curious of your view on this. Thanks!
    numerous passages of scripture connect back to this thought.

    *[[Isa 2:19]] KJV* And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
    *[[Isa 2:20]] KJV* In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
    *[[Isa 2:21]] KJV* To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    *[[Isa 13:13]] KJV* Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    *[[Isa 34:4]] KJV* And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

    *[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    *[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    *[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

    *[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
    *[[Jer 25:30]] KJV* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

    All of these scriptures point to the opening of the 6th seal:

    *[[Rev 6:12]] KJV* And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    *[[Rev 6:13]] KJV* And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    *[[Rev 6:14]] KJV* And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    *[[Rev 6:15]] KJV* And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    *[[Rev 6:16]] KJV* And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    *[[Rev 6:17]] KJV* For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    But the one point that can't be emphasized enough is the one in Jer 25. There it says "when I begin to bring evil on the city called by my name", Jerusalem. Secondly, it points to Satan being cast out of heaven. Thirdly, it points to the sacrificed ceasing in Jerusalem. From there it just grows and grows. From there we can connect this judgment upon Jerusalem with Ezekiel 5, namely, the eye opener found in verse 9:

    *[[Eze 5:9]] KJV* And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

    THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

    From there we see connection with Zech 13:8-9
    And then we have:

    *[[Eze 5:12]] KJV* A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.*[[Eze 5:17]] KJV* So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

    That takes us to Eze 14:

    *[[Eze 14:21]] KJV* For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

    Which will then take us back to Rev. 6 and the first 4 seals. Judgment upon Jerusalem. And on and on we go.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,159

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    I like the OP here, except where you say Israel: Judah, the Jews, will be saved and redeemed. Nowhere does the Bible say that, it does say many times that they will be judged again, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:14, + and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Amos 2:4-5, +

    Revelation is a prophecy of what the Lord has planned for our future. Only the first five Seals are in force now.

    Habakkuk 1:5 Look around you among the nations, see there a sight that will utterly astound you, you will not believe it when you are told of what is being done in your days.
    Habakkuk 1:6-11 goes on to say how the Babylonians were appointed to execute judgement against the House of Judah, but the preceding verses in Habakkuk 1:1-4 are a general indictment onto peoples and nations whose ‘laws are ineffective and where justice is overruled’. Therefore this threat of action by the Lord applies to our times, as well.
    Acts 13:40-41 Beware, then lest you bring down upon yourselves the doom proclaimed by the prophets. Look, you who fail to grasp the truth, be surprised and perish. I am doing a work in your days, something that you will not believe, even though it has been pointed out to you.

    This is the parallel passage from the New Testament. Paul's quote, that cannot relate to Jesus and His work on the cross, the message of salvation is not ‘doom’.
    It applies to the end times: ‘your days’, not his days, but our days. The ‘Doom proclaimed by the prophets’, will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. All the prophets and Jesus make it clear that this ‘Day of doom’, is the next prophesied event that we can expect to happen. Jesus quoted the first and half of the second verse of Isaiah 61:1-2, at the commencement of His ministry. What comes next is ‘a Day of vengeance of our God’.

    More than 100 prophecies throughout the Bible describe in vivid detail this forthcoming punishment onto the whole world by devastating fire. This sudden and shocking event will take most people unawares and we are told by Paul, that those who are ‘surprised’; that is unaware and unprepared, then: they may die. Ezekiel 21:3-4
    Isaiah 30:26 tells us what it is that causes this worldwide devastation and also that it will be ‘the Day the Lord saves His people’. All faithful Christians, who truly believe in Jesus and a few Messianic Jews who are protected in Jerusalem. Isaiah 31:5
    Therefore it is up to us to take heed of the warnings, Isaiah 24:1, Isaiah 26:20-21 and to be prepared for all the effects of a massive CME sunstrike that will kill about 1/3 of the world’s population and will destroy all of our modern infrastructure. Jeremiah 9:22
    Then, for all who love the Lord and keep His Commandments, the Lord is ‘waiting to show His favour’, Isaiah 30:18-20

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    7,879
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    My basic pillar is that CONTEXT is prime to correctly understand a passage.
    This starts with within the immediate context, then the wider, followed by related passages.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Clanton Alabama
    Posts
    740

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.

    What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:

    I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.

    I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.
    Matthew 24:1-14 is not end times. How do you guys go forth with this stuff? Its mind boggling to me. You do know we are not supposed to go forth with things as truth unless the Holy Spirit directs us that way. The Holy Spirit is not directing in two different directions. We actually are starting to have some really weird end times stuff coming forth, I think because its the last days. I won't call this weird because I understand why people get confused here, but we get those few who actually are calling others "futurists" when in truth they are pretty much in the dark on everything, so much so that I see no need conversing with their types anymore, its sadly useless.

    But I get a sense, for the most part, you understand scriptures, and I understand some people confuse this chapter with end time events. But the Holy Spirit is not telling you Matthew 24:1 or 3-14 is End Time Events brother. That is coming from somewhere else.

    I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.
    Chapter 11 gets a little discombobulated, but if not in verse 21, then at least by verse 30 it is end times, As well as chapter 12.

    I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.
    There is Paul who clearly tells us of the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church. The Bibles is about Israel/Jews, not the Gentiles. Since the Church will be 95 percent or more Gentiles its just not a something that God directed His Prophets to talk about. Paul the Disciple to the Gentiles was given a understanding of the Coming Rapture, he tells us about it very clearly, people like you just choose not to see it or understand it. Then there is the "Secret Riddles/Clues" where God always tells us about things when no one understands his parables/riddles. Like Leviticus 23, where the Seven Feasts tell us the whole story, if we are intuitive. We are told in the Old Testament God would seek a people that did not seek him, that's the Gentiles. Paul told us us that we meet Jesus in the air. Revelation 19 tell us we return from Heaven with Jesus to battle the Armageddon Beast. Its very clear to me a 30 year preacher, but you choose to believe what you have been told by men it seems, God is not telling anyone there is no pre tribulation rapture, I can promise you that.

    I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.

    I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46
    We would know the EXACT DAY of the Second Coming, it will be 42 Months after the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem or EXACTLY 1260 Days !! How can you even argue against that point? The Rapture of course is the Surprise return, not the Second Coming. When you see the WHOLE WORLD Gathering at Armageddon do you think Jesus might SHOW UP? (LOL). It is not going to be a surprise when Jesus shows up on the Mt. of Olives. It will be a surprise when Jesus raptures the Church. You can not have a REMNANT CHURCH in Rev. 12 without a RAPTURED CHURCH.

    I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.
    The Elect are Jews who have REPENTED....Not Christians per se, though those Jews will have accepted Christ as their Messiah. The Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb just like Rev. ch. 19 says.

    I believe that the 1st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 19 is specifically the 1st resurrection “IN THE NEW KINGDOM”. I believe there is another resurrection at the “coming of Christ” which happens according to Matthew 24, and is before the 1st Resurrection of Rev 19, and before Jesus sets up His throne on the Earth.
    I think you mean Rev. 20:4-5. The First Resurrection is Gods Elect. The Second Resurrection is the Wicked Tares so to speak. You are trying to place them all at the same time, IMHO, not understanding the meaning of the passage. The Rapture of the Dead in Christ and those Living, the Resurrection of the Beheaded of the Tribulation, and even the Resurrection of the Saints of old/Jewish Saints all are considered the FIRST RESURRECTION !!

    The Second Resurrection is 1000 years later of all the Evil/Wicked/Tares.

    I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.

    I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.
    Jesus will rule 1000 years but the Temple is already rebuilt, he may build another one, who knows. I believe the 144,000 are the Jews who flee to safety. Not 144,000 people. They are those that turn to Christ. Jesus rules on earth with the Beheaded and the Jews. Not with the Church who will return to Heaven.

  8. #8

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Matthew 24:1-14 is not end times. How do you guys go forth with this stuff? Its mind boggling to me.
    Some of us see "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:4-8 (etc) to be directly parallel with the first SEALS of Revelation 6. Furthermore, I see the "birth PANG" word to be the exact word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (though here, in the singular, meaning the INITIAL "birth PANG" [which is followed by more of them]) to be showing the ARRIVAL of the TIME PERIOD [not the arrival of Jesus Himself, which comes later in the chronology].

    That time period is kicked off [STARTED] by the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (2Th2:9) of "the man of sin," which is the INITIAL SEAL, the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (Jesus spoke of "more than one" in His wording of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" same word as in 1Th5:2-3). The INITIAL "SEAL" (at the BEGINNING) being the rider on the white horse, Rev6, "the FALSE" (THE Anti-Christ), who goes forth "conquering and to conquer" (same word as is used of the beast's doings in the later Rev11:7 and 13:7). The text of 2Th2:3-9 has a "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" [v.9, then v.4, then v.8] just the same as Daniel 9:27[26] does, which starts with the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" piece of information (the same as the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" as in 2Th2:9's BEGINNING of the man of sin's "in his time". The INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" of many more to FOLLOW THAT ONE). [same as The Revelation supplies, as well]

    So yes, some of us see starting in Matthew 24:4-8 a parallel with the Seals, with the FIRST one being parallel with the ARRIVAL of the time period (1Th5:2-3), the ARRIVAL of the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" ("in his time" ['IN THE NIGHT'-Dan7:7, Gen46:2a) 2Th2:9 "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (and 2:7-8 also), and [as tied to all this] the ARRIVAL of the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (Dan9:27a).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    7,879
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    I can see birth pangs in Matt 24:4 - 8 as relating to the seals.
    However I also have no reason not to think at least the first 5 seals and possibly all of them have been opened.
    The next thing on the agenda is the 144k followed by the 1st trumpet.

    But then I don't have the idea of a rapture BEFORE the seals or trumpets or even vials to cause me to think this is all in the future.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Clanton Alabama
    Posts
    740

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Some of us see "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:4-8 (etc) to be directly parallel with the first SEALS of Revelation 6. Furthermore, I see the "birth PANG" word to be the exact word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (though here, in the singular, meaning the INITIAL "birth PANG" [which is followed by more of them]) to be showing the ARRIVAL of the TIME PERIOD [not the arrival of Jesus Himself, which comes later in the chronology].

    That time period is kicked off [STARTED] by the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (2Th2:9) of "the man of sin," which is the INITIAL SEAL, the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (Jesus spoke of "more than one" in His wording of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" same word as in 1Th5:2-3). The INITIAL "SEAL" (at the BEGINNING) being the rider on the white horse, Rev6, "the FALSE" (THE Anti-Christ), who goes forth "conquering and to conquer" (same word as is used of the beast's doings in the later Rev11:7 and 13:7). The text of 2Th2:3-9 has a "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" [v.9, then v.4, then v.8] just the same as Daniel 9:27[26] does, which starts with the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" piece of information (the same as the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" as in 2Th2:9's BEGINNING of the man of sin's "in his time". The INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" of many more to FOLLOW THAT ONE). [same as The Revelation supplies, as well]

    So yes, some of us see starting in Matthew 24:4-8 a parallel with the Seals, with the FIRST one being parallel with the ARRIVAL of the time period (1Th5:2-3), the ARRIVAL of the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" ("in his time" ['IN THE NIGHT'-Dan7:7, Gen46:2a) 2Th2:9 "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (and 2:7-8 also), and [as tied to all this] the ARRIVAL of the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (Dan9:27a).
    So Matthew 24 uses sorrows and Luke 21 doesn't and you base your whole understanding of the Seals off of this one verse. The beginning of sorrows was meant by Matthew, to convey the struggle of the coming Church, the very next verse he basically tells them they will all be killed/martyred. These pangs get worse and worse, but they will have an end. So when the Pangs end or the SORROWS END, of course only when Jesus returns will the sorrows of mankind be taken away. Whats being birthed from Jesus death until Jesus' return? The Church, and Jesus told us we would have MUCH TRIBULATION, John told us in Rev. 1:9, I am your brother in TRIBULATION. So the Church is birthed in TRIBULATION......Via sorrows until Jesus returns.

    I do not understand why anyone would think its the Seals coming forth when its obvious the very FIRST SEAL is the Man of Sin or Anti-Christ, and just because the same word is used, you jump to this conclusion. We understand the Anti-Christ is not come yet. But Paul was speaking about the coming Anti-Christ in 1 Thessalonians and the coming Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath. You guys use logic that I have never seen and stretch it unto he nth degree. Over analyzing things leads to bad outcomes.

    Why do you think there are THREE DISTINCT Mentions of false christs (verse 5), false prophets and fake christ (verse 11) and false prophets? (verse 24).

    Its three distinct time periods. 70 AD.......The 2000 year Church Age.......The Seven Year Tribulation period.

    The First Seal is the Anti-Christ coming forth. Has not happened. Nothing else past this really makes sense to discuss since the Anti-Christ has to come forth at the First Seal.
    Last edited by Revelation Man; Jan 14th 2018 at 12:06 AM.

  11. #11

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    So Matthew 24 uses sorrows and Luke 21 doesn't and you base your whole understanding of the Seals off of this one verse. The beginning of sorrows was meant by Matthew, to convey the struggle of the coming Church, the very next verse he basically tells them they will all be killed/martyred. These pangs get worse and worse, but they will have an end. So when the Pangs end or the SORROWS END, of course only when Jesus returns will the sorrows of mankind be taken away. Whats being birthed from Jesus death until Jesus' return? The Church, and Jesus told us we would have MUCH TRIBULATION, John told us in Rev. 1:9, I am your brother in TRIBULATION. So the Church is birthed in TRIBULATION......Via sorrows until Jesus returns.

    I do not understand why anyone would think its the Seals coming forth when its obvious the very FIRST SEAL is the Man of Sin or Anti-Christ, and just because the same word is used, you jump to this conclusion. We understand the Anti-Christ is not come yet. But Paul was speaking about the coming Anti-Christ in 1 Thessalonians and the coming Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath. You guys use logic that I have never seen and stretch it unto he nth degree. Over analyzing things leads to bad outcomes.

    Why do you thing there are THREE DISTINCT Mentions of false christs (verse 5), false prophets and fake christ (verse 11 and false prophets? (verse 24).

    Its three distinct time periods. 70 AD.......The 2000 year Church Age.......The Seven Year Tribulation period.

    The First Seal is the Anti-Christ coming forth. Has not happened. Nothing else past this really makes sense to discuss since the Anti-Christ has to come forth at the First Seal.
    See if this post I just made in another thread, answers to any of your objections:

    [post #8]
    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post3423161



    I believe "the Day of the Lord" is the TIME PERIOD when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isaiah 3:13; John 5:22; Acts 17:30-31 [future]; Lam2:3-4/2Th2:7-8; etc), at the START of the 7 years, not at His later arrival to the earth (Rev19; though the DOTL's entire TIME PERIOD stretches all the way to the end of the MK)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Clanton Alabama
    Posts
    740

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    See if this post I just made in another thread, answers to any of your objections:

    [post #8]
    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post3423161



    I believe "the Day of the Lord" is the TIME PERIOD when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isaiah 3:13; John 5:22; Acts 17:30-31 [future]; Lam2:3-4/2Th2:7-8; etc), at the START of the 7 years, not at His later arrival to the earth (Rev19; though the DOTL's entire TIME PERIOD stretches all the way to the end of the MK)
    The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year period of Judgment that begins with Jesus opening the first Seal in heaven, which is the Anti-Christ coming forth.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,464
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Matthew 24:1-14 is not end times. How do you guys go forth with this stuff? Its mind boggling to me. You do know we are not supposed to go forth with things as truth unless the Holy Spirit directs us that way. The Holy Spirit is not directing in two different directions. We actually are starting to have some really weird end times stuff coming forth, I think because its the last days. I won't call this weird because I understand why people get confused here, but we get those few who actually are calling others "futurists" when in truth they are pretty much in the dark on everything, so much so that I see no need conversing with their types anymore, its sadly useless.

    But I get a sense, for the most part, you understand scriptures, and I understand some people confuse this chapter with end time events. But the Holy Spirit is not telling you Matthew 24:1 or 3-14 is End Time Events brother. That is coming from somewhere else.



    Chapter 11 gets a little discombobulated, but if not in verse 21, then at least by verse 30 it is end times, As well as chapter 12.



    There is Paul who clearly tells us of the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church. The Bibles is about Israel/Jews, not the Gentiles. Since the Church will be 95 percent or more Gentiles its just not a something that God directed His Prophets to talk about. Paul the Disciple to the Gentiles was given a understanding of the Coming Rapture, he tells us about it very clearly, people like you just choose not to see it or understand it. Then there is the "Secret Riddles/Clues" where God always tells us about things when no one understands his parables/riddles. Like Leviticus 23, where the Seven Feasts tell us the whole story, if we are intuitive. We are told in the Old Testament God would seek a people that did not seek him, that's the Gentiles. Paul told us us that we meet Jesus in the air. Revelation 19 tell us we return from Heaven with Jesus to battle the Armageddon Beast. Its very clear to me a 30 year preacher, but you choose to believe what you have been told by men it seems, God is not telling anyone there is no pre tribulation rapture, I can promise you that.



    We would know the EXACT DAY of the Second Coming, it will be 42 Months after the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem or EXACTLY 1260 Days !! How can you even argue against that point? The Rapture of course is the Surprise return, not the Second Coming. When you see the WHOLE WORLD Gathering at Armageddon do you think Jesus might SHOW UP? (LOL). It is not going to be a surprise when Jesus shows up on the Mt. of Olives. It will be a surprise when Jesus raptures the Church. You can not have a REMNANT CHURCH in Rev. 12 without a RAPTURED CHURCH.



    The Elect are Jews who have REPENTED....Not Christians per se, though those Jews will have accepted Christ as their Messiah. The Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb just like Rev. ch. 19 says.



    I think you mean Rev. 20:4-5. The First Resurrection is Gods Elect. The Second Resurrection is the Wicked Tares so to speak. You are trying to place them all at the same time, IMHO, not understanding the meaning of the passage. The Rapture of the Dead in Christ and those Living, the Resurrection of the Beheaded of the Tribulation, and even the Resurrection of the Saints of old/Jewish Saints all are considered the FIRST RESURRECTION !!

    The Second Resurrection is 1000 years later of all the Evil/Wicked/Tares.



    Jesus will rule 1000 years but the Temple is already rebuilt, he may build another one, who knows. I believe the 144,000 are the Jews who flee to safety. Not 144,000 people. They are those that turn to Christ. Jesus rules on earth with the Beheaded and the Jews. Not with the Church who will return to Heaven.
    I agree with TheDivineWatermark's remarks. And I will add my own rebuttal.

    First of all, I appreciate that you see me as a learned person, in some respects. (I am not "scholarly" in any means, and have never gone to any seminary or Theological school - however I just may do that.) However, I have studded heavily over 25 years in end times prophecy, and have sought the Lord over and over to sort out my misunderstandings, when He shows me verses that contradict what I believe. And He is faithful, but sometime I have to scrap a lot of what I believe and start from where He leads, instead of where I believe. And thus, through the years, the understanding I have is now on a solid foundation, where scripture backs up scripture. But the parts I build upon these can still be unstable, and I may need to hand it back to the Lord to sort out in the future.

    One of these solid foundations is the fact that Jesus is speaking directly to the Disciples in Matthew 24:3-51, with no other people listening. The disciples are BELIEVERS, and they are UNLEARNED (not scholarly, but rather simple) JEWS. However they NOW have some Torah knowledge beyond the teachings of the Rabbis (who do not have divine knowledge of what they read) in the Temple.

    Another solid understanding is that the disciples ask a specific set of questions SECRETLY to Jesus:

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Jesus answered both these questions but focused on the FACT of "the sign of his coming", in relation to "the end of the world".

    Now, I will grant that Matt 24:1-2 is certainly about 70 AD.

    I will also grant that Matt 24:4-14 can represent the last 2000 years, however it also represents the 1st 3 Seals of Revelation 6, AND IT IS IN THE EXACT SAME ORDER, so it is END TIMES.

    Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many...11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


    Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


    Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


    All three Seals are represented in Matt 24:4-14.

    It is plain as day to me that Jesus is speaking about the end times.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Clanton Alabama
    Posts
    740

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I agree with TheDivineWatermark's remarks. And I will add my own rebuttal.

    First of all, I appreciate that you see me as a learned person, in some respects. (I am not "scholarly" in any means, and have never gone to any seminary or Theological school - however I just may do that.) However, I have studded heavily over 25 years in end times prophecy, and have sought the Lord over and over to sort out my misunderstandings, when He shows me verses that contradict what I believe. And He is faithful, but sometime I have to scrap a lot of what I believe and start from where He leads, instead of where I believe. And thus, through the years, the understanding I have is now on a solid foundation, where scripture backs up scripture. But the parts I build upon these can still be unstable, and I may need to hand it back to the Lord to sort out in the future.

    One of these solid foundations is the fact that Jesus is speaking directly to the Disciples in Matthew 24:3-51, with no other people listening. The disciples are BELIEVERS, and they are UNLEARNED (not scholarly, but rather simple) JEWS. However they NOW have some Torah knowledge beyond the teachings of the Rabbis (who do not have divine knowledge of what they read) in the Temple.

    Another solid understanding is that the disciples ask a specific set of questions SECRETLY to Jesus:

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Jesus answered both these questions but focused on the FACT of "the sign of his coming", in relation to "the end of the world".

    Now, I will grant that Matt 24:1-2 is certainly about 70 AD.

    I will also grant that Matt 24:4-14 can represent the last 2000 years, however it also represents the 1st 3 Seals of Revelation 6, AND IT IS IN THE EXACT SAME ORDER, so it is END TIMES.

    Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many...11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


    Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


    Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


    All three Seals are represented in Matt 24:4-14.

    It is plain as day to me that Jesus is speaking about the end times.
    So you overlook all the facts just because they have a few verses that are like-minded? So during the 2000 year period there will be much famine, and likewise during the 7 year period there will be famine. Matthew Verses 5 and 11 do not match Matthew 24:24 therefore it has nothing to do with Rev. 6:2. There will of course be WARS via the Anti-Christ, but there have been MULTIPLE WARS during the 2000 year Church Age period have there not? You are conflating these scriptures brother, just because scriptures are similar doesn't mean they have to be about the same thing, the proof then has to be found via further study.

    I have done a full exegesis on Matthew 24 brother, because like you it seemed convoluted by many people, some saw it this way, others that way, I knew that there was a change after verse 14, but many others always told me it was all a part of the end times, I could not see that so I decided to do an in depth year long study.

    Most people see two questions here, I see three questions, that's a minor point.

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world? (THREE QUESTIONS)

    {{ The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED (When shall these things be?) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming......And the Third question was and what will be the SIGN (because they used AND) of the end of the world. So they wanted to know about the Temples destruction, and the sign of Jesus' coming and the sign of the end of the world.

    If Jesus is going to give them a sign/understanding of these events, wouldn't he walk them through the whole 2000 year period? I think he would, and clearly does. Lets go through a few of the verses to see why I believe as I do. And we know its a 2000 year period, its 2017 . Well Almost 2000 years. }}

    Lets move on now to the points Jesus was making unto the Disciples........................Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    {{ Jesus here is warning the disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES and figured the Messiah would come and save them, put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. The Jews thought correctly that Rome was the Fourth Beast so they expected the Little Horn to come forth they did not understand the 2000 year GAP. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah/Christ, but they will not be me Returning, it is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the END IS NOT YET !! Jesus wanted the disciples to understand this sacking of Jerusalem and the Temple was not the END TIME Sacking where Jesus returns to SAVE ISRAEL (Zechariah ch. 14). If they had returned to Jerusalem they no doubt would have been killed.

    This fulfilled John 5:43 where Jesus said..............................John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. }}

    Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    {{ Then Jesus seems to shift past the lives of the Disciples and into a futuristic, 2000 year period of time. He speaks about Nations against Nations, Kingdoms against Kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and he says these are the beginnings of sorrows !! The Greek word used for sorrows implies BIRTH PANGS, this is Jesus telling the disciples that all of these things must happen first, and that will be the Sign (BIRTH PANG) that the end is Near. The next few verses are also covering the full 2000 year period, speaking at times about the disciples, and at other times about the whole 2000 year period, until the Rapture. But its past 70 AD, that is when most of the disciples were eventually martyred. ALL of these signs must come to pass BEFORE JESUS RETURNS, not some, but every sign must come to pass. The Birth Pangs are like the signs Jesus is mentioning, his Second Coming MUST SEE EVERY SIGN HE MENTIONS fulfilled first. }}

    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    {{ I think this is mainly Jesus telling his disciples their coming fate. Many people would betray them, and most all of the disciples would become martyrs, save John and a couple of others. They don't kill you if they don't hate you right? And no doubt, many betrayed them, like Judas betrayed Jesus. }}

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    {{ This is speaking of the overall period from 70 AD until the Rapture. Jesus throws this in to let everyone know, there will be many False Prophets (Jonestown/David Koresh, and cults like it have risen over the 2000 year period since Jesus' death AND MANY FALSE TEACHERS/PREACHERS) and because of sin or the acceptance thereof, (at the End Times or Birth Pangs) the love of Many shall wax Cold.....Abortion, Murder, Homosexuality being pushed as normal etc. Then Jesus says, BUT..... out of all of these things I have described unto you all, (Matthew 24:4-13) he that endures all things that might come upon him, he that KEEPS THE FAITH until the end (of his life....THIS DECEIVES MANY HERE, THEY THINK IT MEANS END TIME, it means the end of ONES LIFE, Endure until the end like Paul said, RUN THE FULL RACE) the same shall be saved. In other words if we turn from God/Jesus and return unto the world, we will be cast out of Jesus' mouth as lukewarm. We must overcome Satan by the Blood of the Lamb, we can not turn back to living a sinful life, we must endure all of our temptations. It doesn't mean we will not Sin..........It just means we can not turn back unto a sinful lifestyle. WE MUST ENDURE IN CHRIST until the end. Amen }}

    This above is Jesus answering the first of the three questions, "When shall these things be"? He walks them through the full 2000 year period between when he was alive, though the 70 AD event, until he calls the Church home at the Rapture. The destruction of the Temple is spoken of but Jesus says, the end is not yet !! Then Jesus finishes the 2000 year period. The Rapture scriptures are seen in Matthew 24:36-51. Jesus told about it but filled no one in on the details, this was supposed to be Paul's ministry. But Jesus answered their question so the future Jews of the end times would understand they had missed the Rapture.

    On to the 70th Week of Daniel now. The 3 1/2 years of Peace/Security followed by the 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. The Rapture happens after verse 13 or 14. In my honest opinion Matthew 24:36-51, actually belongs right here, but Matthew was not given that understanding, of course.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    {{ Verse 14 kind of belongs with verses Matthew 4-13, but it can also go on this side of the 2000 year divide. It straddles the gap so to speak. The Gospel must be preached unto all the world, then the END WILL COME !! This is very clear, once the Church has preached the Gospel unto all the world for a witness to Jesus' saving Grace, then and only then can the end times come upon us. Jesus then goes on to tell us/disciples about this end time period. He warns the Jewish peoples that when they see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, they should Flee Jerusalem. THIS IS AN END TIME EVENT.........There is no doubt about that at all. Now Jesus must answer the next two questions, what will be the sign of thy coming, and what will be the end (of the age) of time. }}

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    {{ Jesus is telling his disciples, and thus warning the Jewish peoples of the coming tribulation period about what to look for. He is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets tricks when they try to entice Israel to come out of their safe space (Petra?), where God says in Revelation 12 that he will protect them for 1260 days, from the Dragon (Satan) via his Beast (Anti-Christ). By this time Israel have accepted Jesus as their Messiah. (Malachi 4:5-6) So of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet wants to deceive the Jews into thinking Jesus has returned (because they want to kill them, of course) and is in the desert or secret chambers somewhere !! But Jesus says do not fall for their lies, I will not be in the desert or in a secret chambers....I will be coming from the Eastern Skies for all to see. Amen, So he returns after the Rapture with the Church and Angels. }}

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (Seal 6), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (Vial 6 & 7), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    {{ So, Jesus tells the Jewish peoples the signs of his coming and when the end shall be. This is the end of the age, no doubt. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days (Troubles/Jacobs Trouble), these signs will be in the sky and then you will see me coming in the clouds from the Eastern skies, and all the tribes and nations will see the Glory of my Coming. And the Angels will gather THE ELECT from the Four Corners of Heaven, [where the Church has been for SEVEN YEARS, Marrying the Lamb] and we will Return on White Horses with Jesus Christ just as Rev. 19 says. So every sign Jesus mentioned has to come to pass, NOT SOME, BUT EVERY SIGN HAS TO COME TO PASS FIRST. SEE BELOW !!}}

    Signs that must be fulfilled before Jesus' return !!

    1. false chirsts (Matthew 24:5) are put forth by the Jewish leaders (This fulfilled John 5:43)
    2. Temples Destruction.
    3. Jerusalem Sacked
    4. Jews Dispersed
    5. Many wars over a 2000 some odd year period (Nations against Nations/Kingdoms against Kingdoms)
    6. Famines/Earthquakes/Pestilences over a 2000 year period !!
    7. There will be 2000 years of false preachers and false Rabbis/false teachers. (Matthew 24:11)
    8. The Disciples must be Martyred and betrayed.
    9. The Gospel must be preached unto ALL THE WORLD !! (Then the END WILL COME.....The 7 Year Tribulation period after the Rapture)

    More signs that must come before Jesus' Second Coming, but after the Rapture

    10. The Abomination of Desolation
    11. Israel must FLEE into the Wilderness/Petra I think.
    12. There will be GREAT TRIBULATION such as has never been seen before, thus God chose a 7 Year Period in order to PRESERVE LIFE on earth.
    13. THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet will work MIRACLES & WONDERS that will deceive many.
    14. Jesus tells us in verse 28 the Church (Eagles) will be gathered at the Carcass (Armageddon) See Rev. 19, the FOWLS are called to the Marriage Supper to FEAST !!
    15. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days [start] we shall see the SUN DARKENED.....The Moon turned BLOOD RED.....and the Stars of Heaven SHAKEN (Satan and his Angels cast down unto earth).

    THEN and ONLY THEN can Jesus Christ RETURN....All, as in everyone of these SIGNS MUST COME TO PASS before Jesus can return. Thus the Generation that sees ALL OF THESE SIGNS can only be the TRIBULATION GENERATION, the Church is in Heaven, the Disciples are long gone, as a TRIBULATION Jew/Saint you will have SEEN or UNDERSTOOD all of these signs !! You will have SEEN VIA HISTORY, the Temples Destruction, the Dispersion of the Jews, the GREAT WARS, the false preachers and rabbis for 2000 years is a given, the Tribulation Saints will have seen or UNDERSTOOD that the Gospel of Jesus was preached unto all the world, that all of Jesus' disciples were pretty much Martyred........BUT........Unlike ANYONE BEFORE THEM, the Tribulation Saints will have seen the Abomination of Desolation, they will have seen Israel FLEE unto the Wilderness (they will probably be the ones that flee Judea) they will have seen the TROUBLES Daniel/Jesus spoke of, they will have seen the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, they will have SEEN FIRST HAND the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red and the Heaven SHAKEN.........They know by now Satan has been CAST DOWN !! So they have seen all of these SIGNS !! Jesus tells them in the Parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-35 that when they see all of these signs come to pass SUMMER IS NIGH !!! When they see ALL OF THESE SIGNS, Jesus will be near to his return !!

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    WHAT GENERATION? The Generation that sees EVERY SIGN, which means THAT GENERATION must live during the Tribulation Period !!


    Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because he knows 90-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the end times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

    So Matthew 36-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny : (This should come just after Matthew 24:13-14)

    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    {{ This of course happens right before the tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus' SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised.

    Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

    Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen. }}

    Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus time/death to 70 AD.

    Matthew 24:7-13/14 is the 2000 year period from Jesus to the Rapture.

    Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew thought it should be with the Second Coming.

    Matthew 24:15-26 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christs time.

    Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen.
    Last edited by Revelation Man; Jan 18th 2018 at 09:54 PM.

  15. #15

    Re: Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post


    Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 90-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the end times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

    So Matthew 36-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, [...]

    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    [...]

    Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.
    As in the case of Noah's day, it was the ones that "they knew not until the flood came and took them all away," it was "they" [the ones "taken"] who "knew not" [not Noah, he "knew" and prepared] until the flood ["judgment"] came and took them [the ones being judged] all away [took them all away in judgment]". Noah and crew were "left" to "[actively] FILL the earth" [Gen9:1] (just as it says in Daniel 2:35 of that future time, following the trib, "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" [the MK time period, commencing upon His Second Coming to the earth]).

    This is not a Rapture passage nor context, but His Second Coming to the earth. (Matt22:7-9 SEQUENCE, meaning v.8 equals what was later given in "The Revelation" to reveal "further information" FOLLOWING His ascension, and following the 70ad events, ABOUT the details and TIMING of His Second Coming to the earth, what He didn't "know" BEFORE His Resurrection/ascension [Matt24:36 and parallels])

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Lead us not into temptation
    By CadyandZoe in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Dec 10th 2017, 04:13 PM
  2. When God does not lead you He does not need you
    By James Akindele in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Oct 25th 2012, 09:49 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •