Preconceived ideas lead to our understanding of End Times

[Soldier_of_Faith]

All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.

What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:

I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.

I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.

I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.

I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.

I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.

I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46

I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.

I believe that the 1^st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 19 is specifically the 1^st resurrection “IN THE NEW KINGDOM”. I believe there is another resurrection at the “coming of Christ” which happens according to Matthew 24, and is before the 1^st Resurrection of Rev 19, and before Jesus sets up His throne on the Earth.

I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1^st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.

I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.

[goldenboy]

All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.

What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:

I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.

I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.

I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.

I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.

I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.

I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46

I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.

I believe that the 1^st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 19 is specifically the 1^st resurrection “IN THE NEW KINGDOM”. I believe there is another resurrection at the “coming of Christ” which happens according to Matthew 24, and is before the 1^st Resurrection of Rev 19, and before Jesus sets up His throne on the Earth.

I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1^st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.

I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.

There are several pillars of truth that we all build upon, very few of which i have not had to alter muy understanding of, and that's because it affects how i understand other scriptures. I chose to let the scriptures explain themselves. The one that i feel is most pertinent, but the most abused scripture is the words of Peter that says that no scripture is of private interpretation. If you thought what i said was correct, then i just confirmed my point. It does not say that, but days this:

*[[2Pe 1:19]] KJV* We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

*[[2Pe 1:20]] KJV* Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

It says that NO PROPHECY of scripture is of private interpretation, and not "scripture". Prophecy does not have the witness of ONE. Every word of prophecy is to be established at the witness of no less than TWO or THREE. It does not mean that every prophecy of scripture can necessarily established by some other prophet, [most do], but that some one will testify, with a prophetic voice, that it has been fulfilled. Specific words are the voice of one. Witnesses are the testimony of others, what the ONE has spoken. If there is not a 2nd witness to an "unfulfilled" prophecy, then you can bet that there will be. If you cannot find a confirmatory witness to God's word, then you should take it that it had not been fulfilled.

My one pillar that has been the centerpiece of my road to understanding is Heb 12;26.

*[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
*[[Heb 12:27]] KJV* And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
GB

[ForHisglory]

My basic pillar is that CONTEXT is prime to correctly understand a passage.
This starts with within the immediate context, then the wider, followed by related passages.

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are several pillars of truth that we all build upon,

[...]

My one pillar that has been the centerpiece of my road to understanding is Heb 12;26.

*[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
*[[Heb 12:27]] KJV* And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Are you seeing a connection between Hebrews 12:26-27 and passages regarding future prophecy? If so, I may come back and speak to this further, I'm curious of your view on this. Thanks!

[goldenboy]

Are you seeing a connection between Hebrews 12:26-27 and passages regarding future prophecy? If so, I may come back and speak to this further, I'm curious of your view on this. Thanks!

numerous passages of scripture connect back to this thought.

*[[Isa 2:19]] KJV* And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
*[[Isa 2:20]] KJV* In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
*[[Isa 2:21]] KJV* To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

*[[Isa 13:13]] KJV* Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

*[[Isa 34:4]] KJV* And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

*[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

*[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

*[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

*[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
*[[Jer 25:30]] KJV* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

All of these scriptures point to the opening of the 6th seal:

*[[Rev 6:12]] KJV* And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
*[[Rev 6:13]] KJV* And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
*[[Rev 6:14]] KJV* And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
*[[Rev 6:15]] KJV* And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
*[[Rev 6:16]] KJV* And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
*[[Rev 6:17]] KJV* For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

But the one point that can't be emphasized enough is the one in Jer 25. There it says "when I begin to bring evil on the city called by my name", Jerusalem. Secondly, it points to Satan being cast out of heaven. Thirdly, it points to the sacrificed ceasing in Jerusalem. From there it just grows and grows. From there we can connect this judgment upon Jerusalem with Ezekiel 5, namely, the eye opener found in verse 9:

*[[Eze 5:9]] KJV* And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

From there we see connection with Zech 13:8-9
And then we have:

*[[Eze 5:12]] KJV* A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.*[[Eze 5:17]] KJV* So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

That takes us to Eze 14:

*[[Eze 14:21]] KJV* For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Which will then take us back to Rev. 6 and the first 4 seals. Judgment upon Jerusalem. And on and on we go.
Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
GB

[Keraz]

I like the OP here, except where you say Israel: Judah, the Jews, will be saved and redeemed. Nowhere does the Bible say that, it does say many times that they will be judged again, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:14, + and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Amos 2:4-5, +

Revelation is a prophecy of what the Lord has planned for our future. Only the first five Seals are in force now.

Habakkuk 1:5 Look around you among the nations, see there a sight that will utterly astound you, you will not believe it when you are told of what is being done in your days.
Habakkuk 1:6-11 goes on to say how the Babylonians were appointed to execute judgement against the House of Judah, but the preceding verses in Habakkuk 1:1-4 are a general indictment onto peoples and nations whose ‘laws are ineffective and where justice is overruled’. Therefore this threat of action by the Lord applies to our times, as well.
Acts 13:40-41 Beware, then lest you bring down upon yourselves the doom proclaimed by the prophets. Look, you who fail to grasp the truth, be surprised and perish. I am doing a work in your days, something that you will not believe, even though it has been pointed out to you.

This is the parallel passage from the New Testament. Paul's quote, that cannot relate to Jesus and His work on the cross, the message of salvation is not ‘doom’.
It applies to the end times: ‘your days’, not his days, but our days. The ‘Doom proclaimed by the prophets’, will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. All the prophets and Jesus make it clear that this ‘Day of doom’, is the next prophesied event that we can expect to happen. Jesus quoted the first and half of the second verse of Isaiah 61:1-2, at the commencement of His ministry. What comes next is ‘a Day of vengeance of our God’.

More than 100 prophecies throughout the Bible describe in vivid detail this forthcoming punishment onto the whole world by devastating fire. This sudden and shocking event will take most people unawares and we are told by Paul, that those who are ‘surprised’; that is unaware and unprepared, then: they may die. Ezekiel 21:3-4
Isaiah 30:26 tells us what it is that causes this worldwide devastation and also that it will be ‘the Day the Lord saves His people’. All faithful Christians, who truly believe in Jesus and a few Messianic Jews who are protected in Jerusalem. Isaiah 31:5
Therefore it is up to us to take heed of the warnings, Isaiah 24:1, Isaiah 26:20-21 and to be prepared for all the effects of a massive CME sunstrike that will kill about 1/3 of the world’s population and will destroy all of our modern infrastructure. Jeremiah 9:22
Then, for all who love the Lord and keep His Commandments, the Lord is ‘waiting to show His favour’, Isaiah 30:18-20

[Revelation Man]

All end times scholars have understandings of certain scriptures that define their end time event timings and sequences. The specific beliefs on these specific scriptures then help filter the entire list of events into a specific order or timing, and also orient the events in specific areas or locations. With the slightest change in interpretation of one of these focus point scriptures, the entire timeline or understanding can fall apart.

What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. For example:

I believe that the Book of Revelation is a complete outline of future events that span from the time the antichrist begins to take power until the NHNE and Eternity. However I believe there are parts on end times events elsewhere in scripture that are not discussed in Revelation in specifics, but can be placed into the outline between specific events mentioned, when evidence supports this, in order to flesh out more information.

I believe that Matt 24:3-51 is all End Times and future events. I believe that the timing of the Lords Return is spelled out in Matt 24:3-51 specifically. I believe you can easily place Matt 24:3-51 into the Revelation Texts to flesh out when the Lord returns for His Church.

Matthew 24:1-14 is not end times. How do you guys go forth with this stuff? Its mind boggling to me. You do know we are not supposed to go forth with things as truth unless the Holy Spirit directs us that way. The Holy Spirit is not directing in two different directions. We actually are starting to have some really weird end times stuff coming forth, I think because its the last days. I won't call this weird because I understand why people get confused here, but we get those few who actually are calling others "futurists" when in truth they are pretty much in the dark on everything, so much so that I see no need conversing with their types anymore, its sadly useless.

But I get a sense, for the most part, you understand scriptures, and I understand some people confuse this chapter with end time events. But the Holy Spirit is not telling you Matthew 24:1 or 3-14 is End Time Events brother. That is coming from somewhere else.

I believe that Daniel 11:21-12:13 are all end times events, and overlap the outline of Revelation. I also believe events in our history mimic events in Daniel 11, as a foreshadow of things to come.

Chapter 11 gets a little discombobulated, but if not in verse 21, then at least by verse 30 it is end times, As well as chapter 12.

I believe that there is no evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture, but rather the return (coming) of Christ is specific to Matt 24.

There is Paul who clearly tells us of the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church. The Bibles is about Israel/Jews, not the Gentiles. Since the Church will be 95 percent or more Gentiles its just not a something that God directed His Prophets to talk about. Paul the Disciple to the Gentiles was given a understanding of the Coming Rapture, he tells us about it very clearly, people like you just choose not to see it or understand it. Then there is the "Secret Riddles/Clues" where God always tells us about things when no one understands his parables/riddles. Like Leviticus 23, where the Seven Feasts tell us the whole story, if we are intuitive. We are told in the Old Testament God would seek a people that did not seek him, that's the Gentiles. Paul told us us that we meet Jesus in the air. Revelation 19 tell us we return from Heaven with Jesus to battle the Armageddon Beast. Its very clear to me a 30 year preacher, but you choose to believe what you have been told by men it seems, God is not telling anyone there is no pre tribulation rapture, I can promise you that.

I believe that Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 times which I call years. The “end times” revolve around the midpoint of this time period. Without that Midpoint event, it would be very difficult to know when the Lord will come.

I believe every man must watch for the SEASON of the Lord’s return, but cannot know the exact day or hour of His return. We could, for example, narrow down His return as EMINENT AFTER a specific event happens, but it could happen “any day now, at any hour”. Matt 24:36, 50, 25:13, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:46

We would know the EXACT DAY of the Second Coming, it will be 42 Months after the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem or EXACTLY 1260 Days !! How can you even argue against that point? The Rapture of course is the Surprise return, not the Second Coming. When you see the WHOLE WORLD Gathering at Armageddon do you think Jesus might SHOW UP? (LOL). It is not going to be a surprise when Jesus shows up on the Mt. of Olives. It will be a surprise when Jesus raptures the Church. You can not have a REMNANT CHURCH in Rev. 12 without a RAPTURED CHURCH.

I believe that the Elect in Matt 24 are Christians, and I believe that ISRAEL is addressed by the Lord, but not until after the Rapture.

The Elect are Jews who have REPENTED....Not Christians per se, though those Jews will have accepted Christ as their Messiah. The Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb just like Rev. ch. 19 says.

I believe that the 1st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 19 is specifically the 1st resurrection “IN THE NEW KINGDOM”. I believe there is another resurrection at the “coming of Christ” which happens according to Matthew 24, and is before the 1st Resurrection of Rev 19, and before Jesus sets up His throne on the Earth.

I think you mean Rev. 20:4-5. The First Resurrection is Gods Elect. The Second Resurrection is the Wicked Tares so to speak. You are trying to place them all at the same time, IMHO, not understanding the meaning of the passage. The Rapture of the Dead in Christ and those Living, the Resurrection of the Beheaded of the Tribulation, and even the Resurrection of the Saints of old/Jewish Saints all are considered the FIRST RESURRECTION !!

The Second Resurrection is 1000 years later of all the Evil/Wicked/Tares.

I believe Jesus will Rule over the earth for 1000 years from the earth in His Temple that He will rebuild. I believe that the church will be with Him as His Bride (with the 144,000) and that the beheaded will be workers in His temple after the 1st Resurrection. I believe the people who survived the Wrath of God will be all over the earth and will re-create nations. I believe Jesus will gather all Jews out of all nations and make a great nation of Israel during the 1000 reign.

I may have got to detailed in some of them, but these are all Pillars that I can use scripture to back up and to remove one or change one, will undermine many other parts.

Jesus will rule 1000 years but the Temple is already rebuilt, he may build another one, who knows. I believe the 144,000 are the Jews who flee to safety. Not 144,000 people. They are those that turn to Christ. Jesus rules on earth with the Beheaded and the Jews. Not with the Church who will return to Heaven.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 24:1-14 is not end times. How do you guys go forth with this stuff? Its mind boggling to me.

Some of us see "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:4-8 (etc) to be directly parallel with the first SEALS of Revelation 6. Furthermore, I see the "birth PANG" word to be the exact word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (though here, in the singular, meaning the INITIAL "birth PANG" [which is followed by more of them]) to be showing the ARRIVAL of the TIME PERIOD [not the arrival of Jesus Himself, which comes later in the chronology].

That time period is kicked off [STARTED] by the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (2Th2:9) of "the man of sin," which is the INITIAL SEAL, the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (Jesus spoke of "more than one" in His wording of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" same word as in 1Th5:2-3). The INITIAL "SEAL" (at the BEGINNING) being the rider on the white horse, Rev6, "the FALSE" (THE Anti-Christ), who goes forth "conquering and to conquer" (same word as is used of the beast's doings in the later Rev11:7 and 13:7). The text of 2Th2:3-9 has a "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" [v.9, then v.4, then v.8] just the same as Daniel 9:27[26] does, which starts with the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" piece of information (the same as the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" as in 2Th2:9's BEGINNING of the man of sin's "in his time". The INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" of many more to FOLLOW THAT ONE). [same as The Revelation supplies, as well]

So yes, some of us see starting in Matthew 24:4-8 a parallel with the Seals, with the FIRST one being parallel with the ARRIVAL of the time period (1Th5:2-3), the ARRIVAL of the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" ("in his time" ['IN THE NIGHT'-Dan7:7, Gen46:2a) 2Th2:9 "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (and 2:7-8 also), and [as tied to all this] the ARRIVAL of the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (Dan9:27a).

[ForHisglory]

I can see birth pangs in Matt 24:4 - 8 as relating to the seals.
However I also have no reason not to think at least the first 5 seals and possibly all of them have been opened.
The next thing on the agenda is the 144k followed by the 1st trumpet.

But then I don't have the idea of a rapture BEFORE the seals or trumpets or even vials to cause me to think this is all in the future.

[Revelation Man]

Some of us see "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:4-8 (etc) to be directly parallel with the first SEALS of Revelation 6. Furthermore, I see the "birth PANG" word to be the exact word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (though here, in the singular, meaning the INITIAL "birth PANG" [which is followed by more of them]) to be showing the ARRIVAL of the TIME PERIOD [not the arrival of Jesus Himself, which comes later in the chronology].

That time period is kicked off [STARTED] by the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (2Th2:9) of "the man of sin," which is the INITIAL SEAL, the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (Jesus spoke of "more than one" in His wording of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" same word as in 1Th5:2-3). The INITIAL "SEAL" (at the BEGINNING) being the rider on the white horse, Rev6, "the FALSE" (THE Anti-Christ), who goes forth "conquering and to conquer" (same word as is used of the beast's doings in the later Rev11:7 and 13:7). The text of 2Th2:3-9 has a "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" [v.9, then v.4, then v.8] just the same as Daniel 9:27[26] does, which starts with the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" piece of information (the same as the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" as in 2Th2:9's BEGINNING of the man of sin's "in his time". The INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" of many more to FOLLOW THAT ONE). [same as The Revelation supplies, as well]

So yes, some of us see starting in Matthew 24:4-8 a parallel with the Seals, with the FIRST one being parallel with the ARRIVAL of the time period (1Th5:2-3), the ARRIVAL of the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" ("in his time" ['IN THE NIGHT'-Dan7:7, Gen46:2a) 2Th2:9 "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence" (and 2:7-8 also), and [as tied to all this] the ARRIVAL of the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (Dan9:27a).

So Matthew 24 uses sorrows and Luke 21 doesn't and you base your whole understanding of the Seals off of this one verse. The beginning of sorrows was meant by Matthew, to convey the struggle of the coming Church, the very next verse he basically tells them they will all be killed/martyred. These pangs get worse and worse, but they will have an end. So when the Pangs end or the SORROWS END, of course only when Jesus returns will the sorrows of mankind be taken away. Whats being birthed from Jesus death until Jesus' return? The Church, and Jesus told us we would have MUCH TRIBULATION, John told us in Rev. 1:9, I am your brother in TRIBULATION. So the Church is birthed in TRIBULATION......Via sorrows until Jesus returns.

I do not understand why anyone would think its the Seals coming forth when its obvious the very FIRST SEAL is the Man of Sin or Anti-Christ, and just because the same word is used, you jump to this conclusion. We understand the Anti-Christ is not come yet. But Paul was speaking about the coming Anti-Christ in 1 Thessalonians and the coming Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath. You guys use logic that I have never seen and stretch it unto he nth degree. Over analyzing things leads to bad outcomes.

Why do you think there are THREE DISTINCT Mentions of false christs (verse 5), false prophets and fake christ (verse 11) and false prophets? (verse 24).

Its three distinct time periods. 70 AD.......The 2000 year Church Age.......The Seven Year Tribulation period.

The First Seal is the Anti-Christ coming forth. Has not happened. Nothing else past this really makes sense to discuss since the Anti-Christ has to come forth at the First Seal.

[TheDivineWatermark]

So Matthew 24 uses sorrows and Luke 21 doesn't and you base your whole understanding of the Seals off of this one verse. The beginning of sorrows was meant by Matthew, to convey the struggle of the coming Church, the very next verse he basically tells them they will all be killed/martyred. These pangs get worse and worse, but they will have an end. So when the Pangs end or the SORROWS END, of course only when Jesus returns will the sorrows of mankind be taken away. Whats being birthed from Jesus death until Jesus' return? The Church, and Jesus told us we would have MUCH TRIBULATION, John told us in Rev. 1:9, I am your brother in TRIBULATION. So the Church is birthed in TRIBULATION......Via sorrows until Jesus returns.

I do not understand why anyone would think its the Seals coming forth when its obvious the very FIRST SEAL is the Man of Sin or Anti-Christ, and just because the same word is used, you jump to this conclusion. We understand the Anti-Christ is not come yet. But Paul was speaking about the coming Anti-Christ in 1 Thessalonians and the coming Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath. You guys use logic that I have never seen and stretch it unto he nth degree. Over analyzing things leads to bad outcomes.

Why do you thing there are THREE DISTINCT Mentions of false christs (verse 5), false prophets and fake christ (verse 11 and false prophets? (verse 24).

Its three distinct time periods. 70 AD.......The 2000 year Church Age.......The Seven Year Tribulation period.

The First Seal is the Anti-Christ coming forth. Has not happened. Nothing else past this really makes sense to discuss since the Anti-Christ has to come forth at the First Seal.

See if this post I just made in another thread, answers to any of your objections:

[post #8] http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post3423161



I believe "the Day of the Lord" is the TIME PERIOD when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isaiah 3:13; John 5:22; Acts 17:30-31 [future]; Lam2:3-4/2Th2:7-8; etc), at the START of the 7 years, not at His later arrival to the earth (Rev19; though the DOTL's entire TIME PERIOD stretches all the way to the end of the MK)

[Soldier_of_Faith]

Matthew 24:1-14 is not end times. How do you guys go forth with this stuff? Its mind boggling to me. You do know we are not supposed to go forth with things as truth unless the Holy Spirit directs us that way. The Holy Spirit is not directing in two different directions. We actually are starting to have some really weird end times stuff coming forth, I think because its the last days. I won't call this weird because I understand why people get confused here, but we get those few who actually are calling others "futurists" when in truth they are pretty much in the dark on everything, so much so that I see no need conversing with their types anymore, its sadly useless.

But I get a sense, for the most part, you understand scriptures, and I understand some people confuse this chapter with end time events. But the Holy Spirit is not telling you Matthew 24:1 or 3-14 is End Time Events brother. That is coming from somewhere else.



Chapter 11 gets a little discombobulated, but if not in verse 21, then at least by verse 30 it is end times, As well as chapter 12.



There is Paul who clearly tells us of the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church. The Bibles is about Israel/Jews, not the Gentiles. Since the Church will be 95 percent or more Gentiles its just not a something that God directed His Prophets to talk about. Paul the Disciple to the Gentiles was given a understanding of the Coming Rapture, he tells us about it very clearly, people like you just choose not to see it or understand it. Then there is the "Secret Riddles/Clues" where God always tells us about things when no one understands his parables/riddles. Like Leviticus 23, where the Seven Feasts tell us the whole story, if we are intuitive. We are told in the Old Testament God would seek a people that did not seek him, that's the Gentiles. Paul told us us that we meet Jesus in the air. Revelation 19 tell us we return from Heaven with Jesus to battle the Armageddon Beast. Its very clear to me a 30 year preacher, but you choose to believe what you have been told by men it seems, God is not telling anyone there is no pre tribulation rapture, I can promise you that.



We would know the EXACT DAY of the Second Coming, it will be 42 Months after the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem or EXACTLY 1260 Days !! How can you even argue against that point? The Rapture of course is the Surprise return, not the Second Coming. When you see the WHOLE WORLD Gathering at Armageddon do you think Jesus might SHOW UP? (LOL). It is not going to be a surprise when Jesus shows up on the Mt. of Olives. It will be a surprise when Jesus raptures the Church. You can not have a REMNANT CHURCH in Rev. 12 without a RAPTURED CHURCH.



The Elect are Jews who have REPENTED....Not Christians per se, though those Jews will have accepted Christ as their Messiah. The Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb just like Rev. ch. 19 says.



I think you mean Rev. 20:4-5. The First Resurrection is Gods Elect. The Second Resurrection is the Wicked Tares so to speak. You are trying to place them all at the same time, IMHO, not understanding the meaning of the passage. The Rapture of the Dead in Christ and those Living, the Resurrection of the Beheaded of the Tribulation, and even the Resurrection of the Saints of old/Jewish Saints all are considered the FIRST RESURRECTION !!

The Second Resurrection is 1000 years later of all the Evil/Wicked/Tares.



Jesus will rule 1000 years but the Temple is already rebuilt, he may build another one, who knows. I believe the 144,000 are the Jews who flee to safety. Not 144,000 people. They are those that turn to Christ. Jesus rules on earth with the Beheaded and the Jews. Not with the Church who will return to Heaven.

I agree with TheDivineWatermark's remarks. And I will add my own rebuttal.

First of all, I appreciate that you see me as a learned person, in some respects. (I am not "scholarly" in any means, and have never gone to any seminary or Theological school - however I just may do that.) However, I have studded heavily over 25 years in end times prophecy, and have sought the Lord over and over to sort out my misunderstandings, when He shows me verses that contradict what I believe. And He is faithful, but sometime I have to scrap a lot of what I believe and start from where He leads, instead of where I believe. And thus, through the years, the understanding I have is now on a solid foundation, where scripture backs up scripture. But the parts I build upon these can still be unstable, and I may need to hand it back to the Lord to sort out in the future.

One of these solid foundations is the fact that Jesus is speaking directly to the Disciples in Matthew 24:3-51, with no other people listening. The disciples are BELIEVERS, and they are UNLEARNED (not scholarly, but rather simple) JEWS. However they NOW have some Torah knowledge beyond the teachings of the Rabbis (who do not have divine knowledge of what they read) in the Temple.

Another solid understanding is that the disciples ask a specific set of questions SECRETLY to Jesus:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus answered both these questions but focused on the FACT of "the sign of his coming", in relation to "the end of the world".

Now, I will grant that Matt 24:1-2 is certainly about 70 AD.

I will also grant that Matt 24:4-14 can represent the last 2000 years, however it also represents the 1st 3 Seals of Revelation 6, AND IT IS IN THE EXACT SAME ORDER, so it is END TIMES.

Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many...11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

All three Seals are represented in Matt 24:4-14.

It is plain as day to me that Jesus is speaking about the end times.

[randyk]

What are some of our preconceived PILLAR understandings of scriptures that you base your time lines of the coming of the Lord events on. [/B]

This is probably too big a subject to deal with in one thread. I'm Postrib, Premil, believe Daniel's 70 Weeks were fulfilled historically, believe the Olivet Discourse began with an historical fulfillment and ends with an irrelevant date for Christ's return, and believe the book of Revelation is all about the last 3.5 years of the age, described in the context of the then-current historical situation in the Roman Empire. Big, big subject, but thanks for asking!

[Keraz]

This is probably too big a subject to deal with in one thread. I'm Postrib, Premil, believe Daniel's 70 Weeks were fulfilled historically, believe the Olivet Discourse began with an historical fulfillment and ends with an irrelevant date for Christ's return, and believe the book of Revelation is all about the last 3.5 years of the age, described in the context of the then-current historical situation in the Roman Empire. Big, big subject, but thanks for asking!

And the prophets make it clear that only after the events of these end times, will most Christians understand what was meant by their prophesies.
Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, to whom give warning? The people are incapable of listening, for they treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach.

Daniel 12:4-9 Keep the Words secret until the time of the end, many will search hard to find this knowledge, but will not succeed.
Isaiah 29:23-24 ...when My people see what I have done in their midst, then they will praise their Maker and regard the Lord with awe and the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction. Isaiah 35:5-6
Isaiah 42:18-19 You that are deaf hear now! You that are blind, look and see!
Isaiah 32:3-4 Then My people will see and hear clearly, those who could not ‘see it’ or ‘hear the prophetic message’, will finally understand and know the truth.

[Revelation Man]

See if this post I just made in another thread, answers to any of your objections:

[post #8] http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post3423161



I believe "the Day of the Lord" is the TIME PERIOD when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isaiah 3:13; John 5:22; Acts 17:30-31 [future]; Lam2:3-4/2Th2:7-8; etc), at the START of the 7 years, not at His later arrival to the earth (Rev19; though the DOTL's entire TIME PERIOD stretches all the way to the end of the MK)

The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year period of Judgment that begins with Jesus opening the first Seal in heaven, which is the Anti-Christ coming forth.