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Thread: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

  1. #16

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    How do you justify the Aod in matthew as what happened in 70 ad when ww2 was a far greater tribulation on Jews and Gentiles?

    Or how about that all nations would hate Israel, which was def not a fact in 70 ad, in fact it was impossible. Information wasn’t available for such a thing.

    For the final nail in the coffin, how do you justify that Jesus says “Immediatly following the tribulation of those days” as in the great tribulation He’s speaking of which He begins it with the Aod, He tells them He’s going to collect the saints.

    You either missed out on being gathered and you’re actually in hell right now living a fake life that will forever be separated from God or you horribly miss interpret basic wording in scripture.

  2. #17
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    So, the gospels, and Daniel, and history, fit like a glove. I agree with you; the Roman army was the 'Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place.' (Matt 24:15)

    But futurists point to 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13:14 and say that is what Matthew was referring to. The historical interpretation and the futurist interpretation are both persuasive, so how do we tie them together without chucking one view out in favour of the other?
    What Daniel the prophet spoke about, Matthew 24:15, was: Soldiers in his command, [that is; the leader who conquers those under the holy Covenant, Revelation 13:7] will desecrate the Sanctuary, abolish the regular offerings and will set up the abominable thing that causes desolation. Daniel 11:30-31

    This is not what happened in 70 AD. Rev 13:14 has not happened yet and thinking it has, is simply preterist error.
    Were the Jews in 70 AD under the holy Covenant? If you think so, then you abrogate Jesus' Words. John 3:16, 2 Cor 3:6-11

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    How do you justify the Aod in matthew as what happened in 70 ad when ww2 was a far greater tribulation on Jews and Gentiles?

    Or how about that all nations would hate Israel, which was def not a fact in 70 ad, in fact it was impossible. Information wasn’t available for such a thing.

    For the final nail in the coffin, how do you justify that Jesus says “Immediatly following the tribulation of those days” as in the great tribulation He’s speaking of which He begins it with the Aod, He tells them He’s going to collect the saints.

    You either missed out on being gathered and you’re actually in hell right now living a fake life that will forever be separated from God or you horribly miss interpret basic wording in scripture.
    I think this is the single biggest misunderstanding I've experienced on this subject, that I view the Great Tribulation as being exclusively the events surrounding 70 AD and 135 AD. That is *not* my position! Although that is indeed a central feature in my argument, it does not exhaust what I consider to be the Great Tribulation!

    For me, the Great Tribulation represents the entire experience of the Jews in the NT age. The events of 70 AD to 135 AD represent merely the *beginning of sufferings,* in this regard. What makes this Tribulation greater than all previous tribulations suffered by the Jews is the length of time involved.

    Whereas the original Hebrews went down to Egypt and lived there for 400 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Whereas the Babylonian Captivity lasted only 70 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Which Tribulation Period do you think is the worst?

  4. #19

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    ^ Do you believe Daniel 12:1 speaks of that? Or a future time? (I seem to recall you said you believe, I think, "past," in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes [??], right? "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [first mention of this exact word is Gen35:11 "nation [singular]"], even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered...")

  5. #20
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    So, the gospels, and Daniel, and history, fit like a glove. I agree with you; the Roman army was the 'Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place.' (Matt 24:15)

    But futurists point to 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13:14 and say that is what Matthew was referring to. The historical interpretation and the futurist interpretation are both persuasive, so how do we tie them together without chucking one view out in favour of the other?
    I just answered that today in a different thread. The problem is, as it was for this other person, that two or more passages are being conflated with one another, confusing the contexts. If you want to truly understand a passage, you must see it in its proper context.

    2 Thes 2 clearly refers to the Antichrist and to the Thessalonians of their own time who failed to anticipate that Christ would come to destroy all antichrists. This meant, in a practical sense, that it was the job of the Thessalonians, and our job, to uncover deceiving antichrists, and prevail in living a godly life. The coming of Christ will take place in its own time.

    Rev 13 also refers to the Antichrist in an eschatological setting. But for the Apostle John, who wrote this, it was an encouragement for the churches to prevail against the antichrists of their own time. The letters to the 7 churches make this abundantly clear. Also, John pointed out that as they expected the Antichrist to come, they were first to confront the antichrists of their own time.

    So it is strictly a problem of interpreting an individual passage in the proper context, and not conflating it with other different passages. Just taking common words and using them to join disparate passages is a big mistake in matters of interpretation.

    I would suggest you look into the Olivet Discourse as a microcosm of what Jesus was presenting for Christians throughout the whole age. If Jesus said there would be false Christs and false prophets in his own time, then he was also projecting this reality outwards throughout the NT era. There have indeed been many false Christs and false prophets throughout NT history. And I'm not just speaking of those who claimed to be the Messiah. Many movements portray themselves as *a messiah.*

  6. #21
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think this is the single biggest misunderstanding I've experienced on this subject, that I view the Great Tribulation as being exclusively the events surrounding 70 AD and 135 AD. That is *not* my position! Although that is indeed a central feature in my argument, it does not exhaust what I consider to be the Great Tribulation!

    For me, the Great Tribulation represents the entire experience of the Jews in the NT age. The events of 70 AD to 135 AD represent merely the *beginning of sufferings,* in this regard. What makes this Tribulation greater than all previous tribulations suffered by the Jews is the length of time involved.

    Whereas the original Hebrews went down to Egypt and lived there for 400 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Whereas the Babylonian Captivity lasted only 70 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Which Tribulation Period do you think is the worst?
    I see you contradicting your own position though.

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    You conclude this was meaning 70 AD or so.


    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    You also conclude this was meaning 70 AD or so, yet ongoing at the same time. What then is your definition of fulfilled? Must not be what my definition of fulfilled is. For example, it was prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. That has been fulfilled thus not in an ongoing state. When something is fulfilled, it means it is entirely finished in regards to what is being fulfilled. It therefore makes no sense that this same great tribulation can be fulfilled 2000 years ago while at the same time, this same great tribulation continues in an ongoing sense. Seriously then, how does one apply...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...to two different time periods? What does it say about the great tribulation? Does it not say...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

    If that's connected to 70 AD, how then can this same great tribulation apply to our day in the same way, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be? You can't have the great tribulation without that part. The great tribulation clearly equals such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Meaning throughout it, every square inch of it.

  7. #22

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If that's connected to 70 AD, how then can this same great tribulation apply to our day in the same way, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be? You can't have the great tribulation without that part. The great tribulation clearly equals such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Meaning throughout it, every square inch of it.
    I think he's saying it's one big long time that lasts from 70ad to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, but my question would be, where Luke 21:23 says, "...woe... for there shall be GREAT DISTRESS in the land, and wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE," and yet, in Revelation 7:9,14 it says of those coming out THE GREAT tribulation, that they are "OF ALL THE NATIONS" (set in contradistinction to "the 144,000" of ONE SINGULAR nation [who are not said to be "coming out of/from" it]). So why did all of a sudden this "great [long] distress-of-tribulation" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" begin [in 70ad apparently] involving "all the nations" (the ones "coming out of/from" it) as though the original pertained to them also. I thought it was "wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE" (the 70ad "judgment").

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I think he's saying it's one big long time that lasts from 70ad to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, but my question would be, where Luke 21:23 says, "...woe... for there shall be GREAT DISTRESS in the land, and wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE," and yet, in Revelation 7:9,14 it says of those coming out THE GREAT tribulation, that they are "OF ALL THE NATIONS" (set in contradistinction to "the 144,000" of ONE SINGULAR nation). So why did all of a sudden this "great [long] distress-of-tribulation" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" begin [in 70ad apparently] involving "all the nations" (the ones "coming out of/from" it) as though the original pertained to them also. I thought it was "wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE" (the 70ad "judgment").
    That's what I take him to be meaning as well, so that would have to mean the past 2000 years has been great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. But does that really fit reality though? And why is there a 42 month reign of the beast at the end of this age, which itself is meaning this same great tribulation, if this same great tribulation has been ongoing for 2000 years? Does that mean this 42 month reign of the beast is actually 2000 years in length, which would put the beast rising out of the sea as having already taken place 2000 years ago?

  9. #24

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    That's what I take him to be meaning as well, so that would have to mean the past 2000 years has been great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. But does that really fit reality though? And why is there a 42 month reign of the beast at the end of this age, which itself is meaning this same great tribulation, if this same great tribulation has been ongoing for 2000 years? Does that mean this 42 month reign of the beast is actually 2000 years in length, which would put the beast rising out of the sea as having already taken place 2000 years ago?
    This is where I think people get the [faulty] idea of a "grafting INTO ISRAEL" instead of what the "graft into" actually represents. (Rom11:17-24,25)

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I think he's saying it's one big long time that lasts from 70ad to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, but my question would be, where Luke 21:23 says, "...woe... for there shall be GREAT DISTRESS in the land, and wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE," and yet, in Revelation 7:9,14 it says of those coming out THE GREAT tribulation, that they are "OF ALL THE NATIONS" (set in contradistinction to "the 144,000" of ONE SINGULAR nation [who are not said to be "coming out of/from" it]). So why did all of a sudden this "great [long] distress-of-tribulation" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" begin [in 70ad apparently] involving "all the nations" (the ones "coming out of/from" it) as though the original pertained to them also. I thought it was "wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE" (the 70ad "judgment").
    One thing I do agree with Randy about though, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20, these are all referring to the same time period. If it weren't for the fact that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 place this time period during the AOD, I might be more inclined to think Luke 21:20 is meaning 70 AD. You yourself think it does, while the other two passages you conclude it doesn't. I don't see how that's being consistent though in how one is interpreting these things.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The thing is that there is not just one great tribulation there are many great tribulations the bible says nothing of a 7 year great tribulation

    I believe that the true great tribulation is the tribulation of the saints which one of the elders told John about in Revelation chapter 7 and I believe that it started with the stoning of Stephen and is still happening today.

    There is also a 3 1/2 year tribulation of the saints that we read about in Revelation chapter 13 by the beast which I believe to be the 3 1/2 year persecution of the saints by Nero in the first century

    Randy is right about the great tribulation mentioned in each account of the Olivit discourse against Israel being one and the same. But I believe that the worst part of that started in about 66AD ended in 70AD. If you read Josephus accounts of that time you will see how terrible it was as 1.1 million or 11 out of every 12 Jews were killed and 97 000 Jews were taken captive. What made it the worst time is that the Jews would see their city and temple destroyed and realized that God turned His back on them at that time because they rejected and killed their Messiah

    There is also the great wrath of God which I believe mostly happened in the first century against Jerusalem and the beast and his kingdom Rome which will finally end with the end of our world when God rains down fire from heaven

    i also believe that the book of Revelation is johns account of the Olivit discourse maybe that's why there isn't one in Johns gospel
    Well, I respectfully disagree with you on some of these points, largely because they are based on underlying assumptions made by Dispensationalists. You seem to accept their underlying assumption that a "great tribulation" by definition indicates a persecution of Christians. I don't believe that's necessarily true.

    I think the focus of the Great Tribulation is on the Jewish experience primarily. The Jews, of course, included both Christians and non-Christians. But this Great Tribulation is here specifically defined as a *Jewish* experience. Later on, in the book of Revelation, it is defined more broadly as an international Christian experience, as well.

    And you also seem to accept the idea that a "great tribulation" involves the outpouring of God's wrath. That also I don't think is completely true. The idea of Israel being deported by the Romans is certainly a kind of outpouring of God's wrath. But it certainly isn't the kind of eschatological wrath applied by Dispensationalists to their idea of a Great Tribulation period!

    As I'm trying to show here, Jesus' definition of the Great Tribulation is the experience of the Jewish People throughout the NT age, beginning with the events of 70 AD. The 70 AD experience was merely the "beginning of birth paints." The Jews consisted, in Jesus' time, of both Christians and non-Christians. And so, the Jewish Christians suffered "great tribulation" along with their non-Christian Jewish brethren. They were dislocated by the Romans.

    The Jewish believers suffered, like their non-Christian Jewish brethren, from deprivations caused by the invading Roman Army. They were scattered and dispossessed of their property. But they also suffered because of their message, which both the Jews and the Romans rejected. Whether or not this Christian experience can be incorporated into any definition of the Great Tribulation may be arguable?

    The fact this Great Tribulation is *age-long* is indicated by Luke's account of the Jewish dispersion, which was to last until the times of the Gentiles were ended. This means the Great Tribulation may have begun with the events of 70 AD, but they won't be exhausted until the actual termination of the Gentile age.

    But the age-long length of the Great Tribulation is also indicated in the book of Revelation by the vision of the Great Multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation. Since that event is at the end of the age, we must conclude that the Great Tribulation encompasses the entire period from the beginning of the Jewish Diaspora to the end of the age, as experienced by both Jews and Christians.

    After all, Jesus was, at that time, referring to the Jewish experience, which encompassed both Christians and non-Christians. The Christians largely had to go through what the non-Christians had to go through, with the exception that Jesus told the Christians to pray for escape from the events of 70 AD. That specific event was not designed by God for Christians to go through, but only for non-Christian Jews.

  12. #27

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    One thing I do agree with Randy about though, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20, these are all referring to the same time period. If it weren't for the fact that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 place this time period during the AOD, I might be more inclined to think Luke 21:20 is meaning 70 AD. You yourself think it does, while the other two passages you conclude it doesn't. I don't see how that's being consistent though in how one is interpreting these things.
    In Luke 21, I see:

    --vv.8-11 to be referring to the future FIRST HALF of the 7-yr trib

    --v.12 starts out with "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS" [then describes the 70ad events in vv.12-24a (for Israel), which I believe likely has a double-application to that far-future 7-yr trib, based on other Scriptures outside the Olivet Discourse, but within the "Son of man COMETH" contexts and/or "the kingdom of the heavens" (Matt only) contexts]

    --v.25 resumes with the SECOND HALF of the future 7-tr trib (vv.25-36, concluding with His 2nd Coming to the earth)


    [important to note the TIMING clues/shifts within this text]


    The difference in Matt24, is that it says, "when ye THEREFORE shall see" [see something else, at some other TIME, DUE to this "THEREFORE" clue that is not in Luke's explanation of their "fleeing" when they SEE Jerusalem surrounded with armies, and are to know that the desolation thereof is nigh (pertaining to 70ad events)]. The "THEREFORE" being "there for" a specific reason.

  13. #28
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    We who believe in a future fulfilment of most of the prophesies, do so because knowing the historical facts, we don't see anywhere that things like the One World Government was established or the sun darkened, the moon shining as bright as the sun and blood red, etc.
    If is incumbent on those who say these things have happened, to prove their beliefs with facts.
    I have been doing that, and still am in the process of doing that. Thankfully, there are those like you who even demand proof or evidence. There are others who are convinced that due to preexisting arguments these things are already settled. I will soon deal with your specific questions here, about the one world govt. and the heavenly signs.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    That's what I take him to be meaning as well, so that would have to mean the past 2000 years has been great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. But does that really fit reality though? And why is there a 42 month reign of the beast at the end of this age, which itself is meaning this same great tribulation, if this same great tribulation has been ongoing for 2000 years? Does that mean this 42 month reign of the beast is actually 2000 years in length, which would put the beast rising out of the sea as having already taken place 2000 years ago?
    Yes, I mean that the Great Tribulation is, by *Jesus' definition,* the dispersion of the Jews from the destruction of the temple in 70 AD to the termination of the "times of the Gentiles." This would include the *entire* NT age!

    Your concern about distinguishing the 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist as a *separate* period of "great tribulation" is based on the underlying assumption that the Reign of Antichrist is itself a period of "great tribulation."

    I wouldn't completely reject that idea, although I do think your premise is false if you conclude, in advance, that the Reign of Antichrist is the period of "great tribulation" Jesus referred to. I do think, in some respects, that the Reign of Antichrist is a period of "great tribulation." But I don't at all think that defines what the Great Tribulation is, as defined by Jesus.

    So please allow me to explain. The Great Tribulation period, as defined by Jesus, begins with the Roman dispersions of the Jews from 70-135 AD and ends with the 2nd Coming. So it would necessarily *include* the time of the Reign of Antichrist!

    I do think the primary focus of the Great Tribulation was determined by Jesus to be the experience of the Jews, largely because he was speaking in a period when the Law was still in place and the Jews were God's Chosen People, the "elect."

    However, I do think Jesus had the insight to see that not only were there Christians among the Jews in his time, but there would also be an expansion of his Gospel throughout the world, incorporating all nations. And so, whatever trouble Jesus described would happen to the Jewish believers, this would also apply to non-Jewish believers in the future. If Jews suffered under the disheveling experience of Roman aggression--Christians along with unbelievers, then the same would be true down through the ages for Christians in their own less-than-Christian countries.

    I would add this last thing. Yes, I think the 2000 year Great Tribulation of the Jewish Diaspora to be considered the *worst* in Jewish history, simply because it is the *longest* period of judgment in Jewish history! Jesus said it would be unparalleled. And by its sheer length it certainly is that!

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I think he's saying it's one big long time that lasts from 70ad to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, but my question would be, where Luke 21:23 says, "...woe... for there shall be GREAT DISTRESS in the land, and wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE," and yet, in Revelation 7:9,14 it says of those coming out THE GREAT tribulation, that they are "OF ALL THE NATIONS" (set in contradistinction to "the 144,000" of ONE SINGULAR nation [who are not said to be "coming out of/from" it]). So why did all of a sudden this "great [long] distress-of-tribulation" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" begin [in 70ad apparently] involving "all the nations" (the ones "coming out of/from" it) as though the original pertained to them also. I thought it was "wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE" (the 70ad "judgment").
    Jesus was speaking of the Jewish Experience while he was under the Law, and Israel was the "Chosen People." But he spoke of both Christians and non-Christians in Israel, because they suffered as one people.

    By extension Jesus would apply this to future Christian in other countries who like the Jewish believers would suffer similar troubles.

    The definition Jesus gave for the Great Tribulation was the Jewish Diaspora. But this did not exclude Christians. There were clearly Christians among the Jews!

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