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Thread: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

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  1. #1

    the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    I was asked how I can synchronize the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with the Great Tribulation of Luke 21? The Great Tribulation is often associated, in the minds of Futurists, with an endtimes Great Tribulation, the Reign of Antichrist. And this Reign of Antichrist is thought to be a great tribulation not just because Antichrist persecutes Christians, but also because there appears to be the beginnings of God's wrath poured out upon the earth during that time.

    But I showed that in these three synoptic gospels the Great Tribulation is the same. It is the great tribulation of the Jewish People that began in 70 AD and ends with the return of Christ. All 3 accounts say the exact same thing! This Discourse Jesus gave *while the Law was still in effect,* while *Israel was still the main focus as God's People.*

    It is not, of course, that I deny there will be a future Reign of Antichrist. I fully expect that. However, I don't believe that God's wrath is poured out, in the sense that it can be defined as "God's eschatological Wrath."

    Scripturally, God's wrath is poured out *at* Christ's Coming, and results in eternal judgment. Incidences of historical judgment, whether today or in the time of Antichrist's Reign, are just historical examples of divine judgment. That has happened all through history, from the Flood of Noah until today!

    So, here I will, once again, present a comparison of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, showing that the "great tribulation" they speak of is the Jewish Tribulation of the entire NT age, beginning with the destruction of the temple.

    Please notice that I have put into bold 4 elements that identify these 3 accounts as the *same address,* with all 4 elements in this portion of the discourse matching.

    It is easy to see that the "abomination that causes desolation" mentioned by Matthew and Mark corresponds to the "desolation of Jerusalem" mentioned in Luke.


    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distressin the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Mat 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
    26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

    Mark 13.14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
    20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Randy, you are doing the usual thing of confusing the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, with the great ordeal; Revelation 7:14, of the Sixth Seal.

    The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event we can expect. It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Thinking that Jesus will exhibit His wrath when He Returns, is quite wrong. Revelation 15:1 is clear: the wrath of God is completed with the GT.
    And as for thinking that God's wrath is to do with the Jewish persecution since 70AD, that is error. They are Satanic attacks. Who motivated Hitler?

  3. #3

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Randy, you are doing the usual thing of confusing the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, with the great ordeal; Revelation 7:14, of the Sixth Seal.

    The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event we can expect. It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Thinking that Jesus will exhibit His wrath when He Returns, is quite wrong. Revelation 15:1 is clear: the wrath of God is completed with the GT.
    And as for thinking that God's wrath is to do with the Jewish persecution since 70AD, that is error. They are Satanic attacks. Who motivated Hitler?
    If you wish to get it right, you will have to line up with God's word. I have here presented the three accounts of the same Discourse. 4 elements that I have emboldened suggested they were perfectly synchronized to represent the same Address and the same meaning.

    The AoD is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the beginning of "birth pains." It was actually only the beginning of Jewish suffering throughout the present age, because the Roman invasions in 70 AD and in 135 AD began a great Jewish Dispersion.

    The "fleeing to the mountains" were those among Jesus' disciples who actually paid heed to Jesus' advice, to run and escape when the AoD appears, which is obviously the Roman Army. They showed up initially in 66 AD, giving Christians time to escape before the Romans returned in 70 AD and destroyed Jerusalem--actually part of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was completely finished off by 135 AD.

    The "pregnant women" were part of those attempting to flee under difficult conditions. That happened when the Christians fled to Pella after 66 AD.

    And finally, the "great tribulation" is, as Luke 21 says, the dispersion of the Jews, after 70 AD and 135 AD. This began an age-long Jewish Diaspora, which obviously has been the worst Jewish judgment in its whole history!

    If you honestly disagree with this, I'll understand. But I think I'm just high-lighting God's word.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If you wish to get it right, you will have to line up with God's word. I have here presented the three accounts of the same Discourse. 4 elements that I have emboldened suggested they were perfectly synchronized to represent the same Address and the same meaning.

    The AoD is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the beginning of "birth pains." It was actually only the beginning of Jewish suffering throughout the present age, because the Roman invasions in 70 AD and in 135 AD began a great Jewish Dispersion.

    The "fleeing to the mountains" were those among Jesus' disciples who actually paid heed to Jesus' advice, to run and escape when the AoD appears, which is obviously the Roman Army. They showed up initially in 66 AD, giving Christians time to escape before the Romans returned in 70 AD and destroyed Jerusalem--actually part of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was completely finished off by 135 AD.

    The "pregnant women" were part of those attempting to flee under difficult conditions. That happened when the Christians fled to Pella after 66 AD.

    And finally, the "great tribulation" is, as Luke 21 says, the dispersion of the Jews, after 70 AD and 135 AD. This began an age-long Jewish Diaspora, which obviously has been the worst Jewish judgment in its whole history!

    If you honestly disagree with this, I'll understand. But I think I'm just high-lighting God's word.
    I agree. They are all explaining the one discourse Jesus made, that they all begin and end the same way.

    Matts -
    'pray that your flight " = lukes dispersion among the nations. GT doesn't end there , as Luke speaks of it coming upon ALL those who dwell on the WHOLE earth.

    The GT began with Gospel rejecting Israel and ends with judgment on the Gospel rejecting nations of the world.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    I agree with you that the 3 synoptic gospels are describing the same event. However it raises a question and I would like to hear your take on it. If we 'marry' the Luke and Matthew accounts, what shall we say ‘the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place' was in AD 70?
    "Your name and renown
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    I agree with you that the 3 synoptic gospels are describing the same event. However it raises a question and I would like to hear your take on it. If we 'marry' the Luke and Matthew accounts, what shall we say ‘the abomination that causes desolation see standing in the holy place' was in AD 70?

    I'll answer that sure when the roman army enters and destroyed the temple they were inside the temple desecrating destroying and looting it

  7. #7

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Points.
    1) Jesus' claim the temple will be destroyed.
    2) Jesus' disciples question him about the timing of this event and about the coming of Jesus' Kingdom.
    3) Jesus warns of deceivers as an initial test to the disciples.
    4) Jesus warns of international turmoil.
    5) Jesus warns of natural disasters.
    6) Matthew and Mark describe all these things as "the beginning of birth pains." Luke explains that all these things "will not come right away."

    I can only conclude that all these things were to take place immediately, in Jesus' generation. Even though they will lead up to a whole age of trouble, the initial signs would be there in the 1st generation of the Church, including the destruction of the Jewish temple.

    Matthew 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Mark 13.1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
    2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
    5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

    Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
    8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
    10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Points.
    1) Jesus' claim the temple will be destroyed.
    2) Jesus' disciples question him about the timing of this event and about the coming of Jesus' Kingdom.
    3) Jesus warns of deceivers as an initial test to the disciples.
    4) Jesus warns of international turmoil.
    5) Jesus warns of natural disasters.
    6) Matthew and Mark describe all these things as "the beginning of birth pains." Luke explains that all these things "will not come right away."

    I can only conclude that all these things were to take place immediately, in Jesus' generation. Even though they will lead up to a whole age of trouble, the initial signs would be there in the 1st generation of the Church, including the destruction of the Jewish temple.

    Matthew 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Mark 13.1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
    2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
    5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

    Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
    8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
    10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
    You are right they all did happen back then

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I'll answer that sure when the roman army enters and destroyed the temple they were inside the temple desecrating destroying and looting it
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk
    There is absolutely no question in my mind that the AoD was the Roman Army that set feet upon the vicinity of the Holy City Jerusalem. This "abominable pagan oppressor" was called upon by God to embarass the Jews with a defilement of their holy city.
    So, the gospels, and Daniel, and history, fit like a glove. I agree with you; the Roman army was the 'Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place.' (Matt 24:15)

    But futurists point to 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13:14 and say that is what Matthew was referring to. The historical interpretation and the futurist interpretation are both persuasive, so how do we tie them together without chucking one view out in favour of the other?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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  10. #10

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    How do you justify the Aod in matthew as what happened in 70 ad when ww2 was a far greater tribulation on Jews and Gentiles?

    Or how about that all nations would hate Israel, which was def not a fact in 70 ad, in fact it was impossible. Information wasn’t available for such a thing.

    For the final nail in the coffin, how do you justify that Jesus says “Immediatly following the tribulation of those days” as in the great tribulation He’s speaking of which He begins it with the Aod, He tells them He’s going to collect the saints.

    You either missed out on being gathered and you’re actually in hell right now living a fake life that will forever be separated from God or you horribly miss interpret basic wording in scripture.

  11. #11

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    How do you justify the Aod in matthew as what happened in 70 ad when ww2 was a far greater tribulation on Jews and Gentiles?

    Or how about that all nations would hate Israel, which was def not a fact in 70 ad, in fact it was impossible. Information wasn’t available for such a thing.

    For the final nail in the coffin, how do you justify that Jesus says “Immediatly following the tribulation of those days” as in the great tribulation He’s speaking of which He begins it with the Aod, He tells them He’s going to collect the saints.

    You either missed out on being gathered and you’re actually in hell right now living a fake life that will forever be separated from God or you horribly miss interpret basic wording in scripture.
    I think this is the single biggest misunderstanding I've experienced on this subject, that I view the Great Tribulation as being exclusively the events surrounding 70 AD and 135 AD. That is *not* my position! Although that is indeed a central feature in my argument, it does not exhaust what I consider to be the Great Tribulation!

    For me, the Great Tribulation represents the entire experience of the Jews in the NT age. The events of 70 AD to 135 AD represent merely the *beginning of sufferings,* in this regard. What makes this Tribulation greater than all previous tribulations suffered by the Jews is the length of time involved.

    Whereas the original Hebrews went down to Egypt and lived there for 400 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Whereas the Babylonian Captivity lasted only 70 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Which Tribulation Period do you think is the worst?

  12. #12

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    ^ Do you believe Daniel 12:1 speaks of that? Or a future time? (I seem to recall you said you believe, I think, "past," in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes [??], right? "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [first mention of this exact word is Gen35:11 "nation [singular]"], even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered...")

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think this is the single biggest misunderstanding I've experienced on this subject, that I view the Great Tribulation as being exclusively the events surrounding 70 AD and 135 AD. That is *not* my position! Although that is indeed a central feature in my argument, it does not exhaust what I consider to be the Great Tribulation!

    For me, the Great Tribulation represents the entire experience of the Jews in the NT age. The events of 70 AD to 135 AD represent merely the *beginning of sufferings,* in this regard. What makes this Tribulation greater than all previous tribulations suffered by the Jews is the length of time involved.

    Whereas the original Hebrews went down to Egypt and lived there for 400 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Whereas the Babylonian Captivity lasted only 70 years, the Great Tribulation I speak of has lasted 2000 years! Which Tribulation Period do you think is the worst?
    I see you contradicting your own position though.

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    You conclude this was meaning 70 AD or so.


    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    You also conclude this was meaning 70 AD or so, yet ongoing at the same time. What then is your definition of fulfilled? Must not be what my definition of fulfilled is. For example, it was prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. That has been fulfilled thus not in an ongoing state. When something is fulfilled, it means it is entirely finished in regards to what is being fulfilled. It therefore makes no sense that this same great tribulation can be fulfilled 2000 years ago while at the same time, this same great tribulation continues in an ongoing sense. Seriously then, how does one apply...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...to two different time periods? What does it say about the great tribulation? Does it not say...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

    If that's connected to 70 AD, how then can this same great tribulation apply to our day in the same way, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be? You can't have the great tribulation without that part. The great tribulation clearly equals such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Meaning throughout it, every square inch of it.

  14. #14

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If that's connected to 70 AD, how then can this same great tribulation apply to our day in the same way, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be? You can't have the great tribulation without that part. The great tribulation clearly equals such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Meaning throughout it, every square inch of it.
    I think he's saying it's one big long time that lasts from 70ad to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, but my question would be, where Luke 21:23 says, "...woe... for there shall be GREAT DISTRESS in the land, and wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE," and yet, in Revelation 7:9,14 it says of those coming out THE GREAT tribulation, that they are "OF ALL THE NATIONS" (set in contradistinction to "the 144,000" of ONE SINGULAR nation [who are not said to be "coming out of/from" it]). So why did all of a sudden this "great [long] distress-of-tribulation" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" begin [in 70ad apparently] involving "all the nations" (the ones "coming out of/from" it) as though the original pertained to them also. I thought it was "wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE" (the 70ad "judgment").

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I think he's saying it's one big long time that lasts from 70ad to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, but my question would be, where Luke 21:23 says, "...woe... for there shall be GREAT DISTRESS in the land, and wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE," and yet, in Revelation 7:9,14 it says of those coming out THE GREAT tribulation, that they are "OF ALL THE NATIONS" (set in contradistinction to "the 144,000" of ONE SINGULAR nation). So why did all of a sudden this "great [long] distress-of-tribulation" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" begin [in 70ad apparently] involving "all the nations" (the ones "coming out of/from" it) as though the original pertained to them also. I thought it was "wrath UPON THIS PEOPLE" (the 70ad "judgment").
    That's what I take him to be meaning as well, so that would have to mean the past 2000 years has been great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. But does that really fit reality though? And why is there a 42 month reign of the beast at the end of this age, which itself is meaning this same great tribulation, if this same great tribulation has been ongoing for 2000 years? Does that mean this 42 month reign of the beast is actually 2000 years in length, which would put the beast rising out of the sea as having already taken place 2000 years ago?

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