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Thread: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

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    the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    I was asked how I can synchronize the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with the Great Tribulation of Luke 21? The Great Tribulation is often associated, in the minds of Futurists, with an endtimes Great Tribulation, the Reign of Antichrist. And this Reign of Antichrist is thought to be a great tribulation not just because Antichrist persecutes Christians, but also because there appears to be the beginnings of God's wrath poured out upon the earth during that time.

    But I showed that in these three synoptic gospels the Great Tribulation is the same. It is the great tribulation of the Jewish People that began in 70 AD and ends with the return of Christ. All 3 accounts say the exact same thing! This Discourse Jesus gave *while the Law was still in effect,* while *Israel was still the main focus as God's People.*

    It is not, of course, that I deny there will be a future Reign of Antichrist. I fully expect that. However, I don't believe that God's wrath is poured out, in the sense that it can be defined as "God's eschatological Wrath."

    Scripturally, God's wrath is poured out *at* Christ's Coming, and results in eternal judgment. Incidences of historical judgment, whether today or in the time of Antichrist's Reign, are just historical examples of divine judgment. That has happened all through history, from the Flood of Noah until today!

    So, here I will, once again, present a comparison of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, showing that the "great tribulation" they speak of is the Jewish Tribulation of the entire NT age, beginning with the destruction of the temple.

    Please notice that I have put into bold 4 elements that identify these 3 accounts as the *same address,* with all 4 elements in this portion of the discourse matching.

    It is easy to see that the "abomination that causes desolation" mentioned by Matthew and Mark corresponds to the "desolation of Jerusalem" mentioned in Luke.


    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distressin the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Mat 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
    26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

    Mark 13.14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
    20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Randy, you are doing the usual thing of confusing the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, with the great ordeal; Revelation 7:14, of the Sixth Seal.

    The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event we can expect. It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Thinking that Jesus will exhibit His wrath when He Returns, is quite wrong. Revelation 15:1 is clear: the wrath of God is completed with the GT.
    And as for thinking that God's wrath is to do with the Jewish persecution since 70AD, that is error. They are Satanic attacks. Who motivated Hitler?

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Randy, you are doing the usual thing of confusing the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, with the great ordeal; Revelation 7:14, of the Sixth Seal.

    The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event we can expect. It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Thinking that Jesus will exhibit His wrath when He Returns, is quite wrong. Revelation 15:1 is clear: the wrath of God is completed with the GT.
    And as for thinking that God's wrath is to do with the Jewish persecution since 70AD, that is error. They are Satanic attacks. Who motivated Hitler?
    If you wish to get it right, you will have to line up with God's word. I have here presented the three accounts of the same Discourse. 4 elements that I have emboldened suggested they were perfectly synchronized to represent the same Address and the same meaning.

    The AoD is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the beginning of "birth pains." It was actually only the beginning of Jewish suffering throughout the present age, because the Roman invasions in 70 AD and in 135 AD began a great Jewish Dispersion.

    The "fleeing to the mountains" were those among Jesus' disciples who actually paid heed to Jesus' advice, to run and escape when the AoD appears, which is obviously the Roman Army. They showed up initially in 66 AD, giving Christians time to escape before the Romans returned in 70 AD and destroyed Jerusalem--actually part of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was completely finished off by 135 AD.

    The "pregnant women" were part of those attempting to flee under difficult conditions. That happened when the Christians fled to Pella after 66 AD.

    And finally, the "great tribulation" is, as Luke 21 says, the dispersion of the Jews, after 70 AD and 135 AD. This began an age-long Jewish Diaspora, which obviously has been the worst Jewish judgment in its whole history!

    If you honestly disagree with this, I'll understand. But I think I'm just high-lighting God's word.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If you wish to get it right, you will have to line up with God's word. I have here presented the three accounts of the same Discourse. 4 elements that I have emboldened suggested they were perfectly synchronized to represent the same Address and the same meaning.

    The AoD is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the beginning of "birth pains." It was actually only the beginning of Jewish suffering throughout the present age, because the Roman invasions in 70 AD and in 135 AD began a great Jewish Dispersion.

    The "fleeing to the mountains" were those among Jesus' disciples who actually paid heed to Jesus' advice, to run and escape when the AoD appears, which is obviously the Roman Army. They showed up initially in 66 AD, giving Christians time to escape before the Romans returned in 70 AD and destroyed Jerusalem--actually part of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was completely finished off by 135 AD.

    The "pregnant women" were part of those attempting to flee under difficult conditions. That happened when the Christians fled to Pella after 66 AD.

    And finally, the "great tribulation" is, as Luke 21 says, the dispersion of the Jews, after 70 AD and 135 AD. This began an age-long Jewish Diaspora, which obviously has been the worst Jewish judgment in its whole history!

    If you honestly disagree with this, I'll understand. But I think I'm just high-lighting God's word.
    I agree. They are all explaining the one discourse Jesus made, that they all begin and end the same way.

    Matts -
    'pray that your flight " = lukes dispersion among the nations. GT doesn't end there , as Luke speaks of it coming upon ALL those who dwell on the WHOLE earth.

    The GT began with Gospel rejecting Israel and ends with judgment on the Gospel rejecting nations of the world.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I was asked how I can synchronize the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with the Great Tribulation of Luke 21? The Great Tribulation is often associated, in the minds of Futurists, with an endtimes Great Tribulation, the Reign of Antichrist. And this Reign of Antichrist is thought to be a great tribulation not just because Antichrist persecutes Christians, but also because there appears to be the beginnings of God's wrath poured out upon the earth during that time.

    But I showed that in these three synoptic gospels the Great Tribulation is the same. It is the great tribulation of the Jewish People that began in 70 AD and ends with the return of Christ. All 3 accounts say the exact same thing! This Discourse Jesus gave *while the Law was still in effect,* while *Israel was still the main focus as God's People.*

    It is not, of course, that I deny there will be a future Reign of Antichrist. I fully expect that. However, I don't believe that God's wrath is poured out, in the sense that it can be defined as "God's eschatological Wrath."

    Scripturally, God's wrath is poured out *at* Christ's Coming, and results in eternal judgment. Incidences of historical judgment, whether today or in the time of Antichrist's Reign, are just historical examples of divine judgment. That has happened all through history, from the Flood of Noah until today!

    So, here I will, once again, present a comparison of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, showing that the "great tribulation" they speak of is the Jewish Tribulation of the entire NT age, beginning with the destruction of the temple.

    Please notice that I have put into bold 4 elements that identify these 3 accounts as the *same address,* with all 4 elements in this portion of the discourse matching.

    It is easy to see that the "abomination that causes desolation" mentioned by Matthew and Mark corresponds to the "desolation of Jerusalem" mentioned in Luke.


    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distressin the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Mat 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
    26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

    Mark 13.14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
    20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
    The thing is that there is not just one great tribulation there are many great tribulations the bible says nothing of a 7 year great tribulation

    I believe that the true great tribulation is the tribulation of the saints which one of the elders told John about in Revelation chapter 7 and I believe that it started with the stoning of Stephen and is still happening today.

    There is also a 3 1/2 year tribulation of the saints that we read about in Revelation chapter 13 by the beast which I believe to be the 3 1/2 year persecution of the saints by Nero in the first century

    Randy is right about the great tribulation mentioned in each account of the Olivit discourse against Israel being one and the same. But I believe that the worst part of that started in about 66AD ended in 70AD. If you read Josephus accounts of that time you will see how terrible it was as 1.1 million or 11 out of every 12 Jews were killed and 97 000 Jews were taken captive. What made it the worst time is that the Jews would see their city and temple destroyed and realized that God turned His back on them at that time because they rejected and killed their Messiah

    There is also the great wrath of God which I believe mostly happened in the first century against Jerusalem and the beast and his kingdom Rome which will finally end with the end of our world when God rains down fire from heaven

    i also believe that the book of Revelation is johns account of the Olivit discourse maybe that's why there isn't one in Johns gospel

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    I agree with you that the 3 synoptic gospels are describing the same event. However it raises a question and I would like to hear your take on it. If we 'marry' the Luke and Matthew accounts, what shall we say ‘the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place' was in AD 70?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Sure, the Olivet discourse is about events of 70-135 AD. But not all of it. Where Jesus reminds us of Daniels prophecy of the AoD, that is something yet to happen. The Bible prophets are clear; this desecration will happen at the mid point of the last seven years before Jesus Returns. Daniel and Revelation tell us several times about this 3.5 year, 42 month or 1260 day period, in which the Great Tribulation will take place.

    Our earth does not end, God made it to last forever. Eccl 1:4, Ephesians 3:21 It will be devastated by the forthcoming Sixth Seal event and after the Millennium, it will be renovated and renewed back to the original. Rev 21:1

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    I agree with you that the 3 synoptic gospels are describing the same event. However it raises a question and I would like to hear your take on it. If we 'marry' the Luke and Matthew accounts, what shall we say ‘the abomination that causes desolation see standing in the holy place' was in AD 70?

    I'll answer that sure when the roman army enters and destroyed the temple they were inside the temple desecrating destroying and looting it

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Points.
    1) Jesus' claim the temple will be destroyed.
    2) Jesus' disciples question him about the timing of this event and about the coming of Jesus' Kingdom.
    3) Jesus warns of deceivers as an initial test to the disciples.
    4) Jesus warns of international turmoil.
    5) Jesus warns of natural disasters.
    6) Matthew and Mark describe all these things as "the beginning of birth pains." Luke explains that all these things "will not come right away."

    I can only conclude that all these things were to take place immediately, in Jesus' generation. Even though they will lead up to a whole age of trouble, the initial signs would be there in the 1st generation of the Church, including the destruction of the Jewish temple.

    Matthew 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Mark 13.1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
    2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
    5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

    Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
    8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
    10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Points.
    1) Jesus' claim the temple will be destroyed.
    2) Jesus' disciples question him about the timing of this event and about the coming of Jesus' Kingdom.
    3) Jesus warns of deceivers as an initial test to the disciples.
    4) Jesus warns of international turmoil.
    5) Jesus warns of natural disasters.
    6) Matthew and Mark describe all these things as "the beginning of birth pains." Luke explains that all these things "will not come right away."

    I can only conclude that all these things were to take place immediately, in Jesus' generation. Even though they will lead up to a whole age of trouble, the initial signs would be there in the 1st generation of the Church, including the destruction of the Jewish temple.

    Matthew 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Mark 13.1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
    2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
    5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

    Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
    8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
    10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
    You are right they all did happen back then

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    I agree. They are all explaining the one discourse Jesus made, that they all begin and end the same way.

    Matts -
    'pray that your flight " = lukes dispersion among the nations. GT doesn't end there , as Luke speaks of it coming upon ALL those who dwell on the WHOLE earth.

    The GT began with Gospel rejecting Israel and ends with judgment on the Gospel rejecting nations of the world.
    Thanks Jeff. I'm baffled as to why modern prophecy enthusiasts are utterly unable to see historical fulfillments? Naturally, I believe the conditions Jesus described in the 1st generation of the Church parallel the experiences of Christians all through history. Jesus is essentially describing the entire NT experience for Christians through the microcosm of the Jewish experience in the 1st century.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    You are right they all did happen back then
    I enjoy having you and Jeff as allies, for once!

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    I agree with you that the 3 synoptic gospels are describing the same event. However it raises a question and I would like to hear your take on it. If we 'marry' the Luke and Matthew accounts, what shall we say ‘the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place' was in AD 70?
    There is absolutely no question in my mind that the AoD was the Roman Army that set feet upon the vicinity of the Holy City Jerusalem. This "abominable pagan oppressor" was called upon by God to embarass the Jews with a defilement of their holy city.

    This "desolation" of Jerusalem, including the destruction of its temple, was prophesied by Daniel in the 70 Weeks prophecy--Dan 9.26-27. The entire scenario Jesus described fit like a glove the 1st generation of the Church and the apostles' experience. This presented for us a microcosm of the Christian experience throughout NT history.

    If you will look at all of the symbols, parables, and examples used, Jesus described the actual loss of the Jews' religious system, along with their favor with God. The apostles were left in the position as prophets, showing Israel their sins and their need for Christ. And this would lead them to other places in the world, since the Jews at that time did not deserve the message.

    This certainly does not represent the temple of Antichrist, although it may serve as a kind of allusion to that perhaps? The important thing is, Jesus said that "this generation" would experience it, meaning the Jews of his generation, who had already been described as sinful and deserving of losing their sacred house.

    I will go even farther to say that a number of the important Church Fathers took this position, that the AoD was the Roman Army. This position has a good history.

    Most importantly, Jesus said this in explicit words. He said "all of this," meaning the destruction of the temple, and its accompanying signs, would take place in "this generation." After all, he introduced the Discourse as a discussion of the temple's destruction.

    And I'm not even saying these signs in the 1st generation of the Church had nothing to do with future Christian generations. On the contrary, these signs in Jesus' generation were meant to forecast conditions for the rest of the NT age. Not only so, but Jesus said the events of his generation were but the "beginning" of an extended period of time of suffering for the Jews.

    So Jesus also used the most explicit terms in saying all these things, ie the signs of the temple's destruction, would be but the "beginning of birth pains." This means that all of this, regarding the temple's destruction, was to take place in the 1st generation of NT history. It would be but the "beginning."

    Whenever I have doubt about an interpretation, I look for explicit words I can hang my hat on. Against the pressures of popular interpretations, and against the pressures of those who disagree, I simply maintain my faith in the explicit words of the Scripture. Then I cannot go wrong, I feel. I can't feel bad for holding on to explicit words, instead of my own interpretation of parables, dreams, visions, symbols, etc.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    The AOD happens at the 1290th day........thus the great tribulation would be after this and up till the 1335 day. So the GT would be no longer than 45 days.

    I personally believe the great tribulation are the 7 vials poured out the last week 7 days..

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thanks Jeff. I'm baffled as to why modern prophecy enthusiasts are utterly unable to see historical fulfillments? Naturally, I believe the conditions Jesus described in the 1st generation of the Church parallel the experiences of Christians all through history. Jesus is essentially describing the entire NT experience for Christians through the microcosm of the Jewish experience in the 1st century.
    We who believe in a future fulfilment of most of the prophesies, do so because knowing the historical facts, we don't see anywhere that things like the One World Government was established or the sun darkened, the moon shining as bright as the sun and blood red, etc.
    If is incumbent on those who say these things have happened, to prove their beliefs with facts.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I'll answer that sure when the roman army enters and destroyed the temple they were inside the temple desecrating destroying and looting it
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk
    There is absolutely no question in my mind that the AoD was the Roman Army that set feet upon the vicinity of the Holy City Jerusalem. This "abominable pagan oppressor" was called upon by God to embarass the Jews with a defilement of their holy city.
    So, the gospels, and Daniel, and history, fit like a glove. I agree with you; the Roman army was the 'Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place.' (Matt 24:15)

    But futurists point to 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13:14 and say that is what Matthew was referring to. The historical interpretation and the futurist interpretation are both persuasive, so how do we tie them together without chucking one view out in favour of the other?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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