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Thread: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

  1. #121
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    A few thoughts for the thread............

    21*For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22*And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The 'elect" here are the 144,000. Through this ordeal of the GT which are the vial judgments this group repents and is saved. Note "saved" here does not mean "spared from death" rather spared long enough for them to turn and repent. The term "saved" means born with the Spirit.

    So we have the following.....

    day 1------1260. The very elect "saints" killed off in battle.

    day 1290. Once the saints have been overcome then the beast commits the AOD.

    day 1290--1335. This is the time of the GT (vials). During this time of God's wrath the beast goes to destroy the remnant of Israel (the elect) and they will be beheaded for not accepting the mark. God's wrath is shortened and does not consume the remnant. The remnant then are resurrected and become the firstfruits and the army of God which comes back with Christ after day 1335 to battle.

    The main point is that "saved" does not mean spared from death. No human survives the 2nd coming as only the wicked army are upon the earth living at this time.
    Sorry, but you have made the common error of many who fail to understand that while Jesus Christ' listeners were Jews, he was indeed addressing BOTH Israel and the international church. The *elect* on whose behalf the GT is shortened comprises of ALL that is in Christ - Jew and Gentile. Limiting them to ethnic Jews is a gross error.

    The 144,000 may be ethnic Jews, but they are not the sum total of the elect!

  2. #122
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The *elect* on whose behalf the GT is shortened comprises of ALL that is in Christ - Jew and Gentile. Limiting them to ethnic Jews is a gross error.
    Sorry.... for it is you that have fallen for the theology student answer that both are the same in Christ. Yes of course jews will be part of the church ie born again. But there willl be a remanant of ethnic Israel in which God will his own. ie the 144,000.


    Is 45
    3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
    4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

    If both jew and gentile are the elect, then who is the very elect?


    matt 24
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

  3. #123
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. That is a bizarre idea.
    Remember John was told things which were happening and then things which were to happen in the future.
    Revelation 1:19
    19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

    Yes it could totally be possible as the verse above states

  4. #124
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Well I disagree, but I certainly like and identify with the burden I see in you. You transfer Trinitarian and Christological concerns into the identity of the Antichrist. In other words, you sound like an apologist. I have a feel for that, as well, even though I think these specific concerns came to be detailed later.
    I would like it if you could extrapolate on this a little. I am listening.

    Initially, though, I do believe the Antichrist was a person described as coming immediately before the advent of Christ's Kingdom. His biblical origin is in Dan 7, the "little horn." He appears very much like Daniel's other prophecy of Antiochus 4. These two are very similar, but different characters, in my view.
    Nero.

    The Antichrist, John knew, was something that the Jews anticipated. Paul certainly spells it out in 2 Thes 2. But there were also current antichrists. And it is this that I think John was focusing upon.
    I think its better to see it was for their time only, first Century. They certainly anticipated it. And it happened in their lives. The Great Tribulation of 70AD. and because of the 4 verses, we know that there are many anti-Christ’s alive today.

    Hindus are Antichrist. Atheists are anti-Christ’s. Muslims and non-believing Jews are anti-Christ’s. Facts are facts.

    In fact I think the *present antichrists* is what Jesus made the priority in his own generation. The time of the coming of Christ was irrelevant to Jesus. He relegated the "timing and dates" of prophetic events to the sovereign will of the Father. We, on the other hand, are to be concerned about our own spiritual condition and our own time. We cannot possibly prepare for future prophetic events. We can only walk in the Spirit today.
    Agree. I also agree present day anti-Christs are still in Gods cross-hairs. And in ours, _for evangelism_ not necessarily war. If we convert the Jews we might just change history. If we don’t, God may do what it seems he always does, destroy the Jews. Perhaps there is a reason for the constant persecution they have faced since 70AD. Does not God use other nations to chastise His people? Don’t dispensationalists think there is going to be another holocaust?

    Imagine the headline, “Jews All Across the Globe Turn to Christ” “Jews finally recognize the True Messiah”

    Then, together, we convert our misled brothers, the Muslims, not with bombs; but with food, shelter and the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    They would receptive because we would show them the similarities between our religions. They would hear the truth because we would own the airwaves and pump out the GOSPEL everywhere across the earth. Making Gospel centred entertainment not the filth that Hollywood produces. After we get the Muslims online, the three groups of Christians ( us, Jews, and now converted Muslims ) would in turn, turn & concur the rest of the known world with the Gospel. There you have Heaven on earth fully concured by Evangislm AND THE POWER of God to open hearts and minds.

    So what are the antichrists of our own time? They are precisely what you explained them to be. Since I feel this is our priority, we are in agreement on the most important elements of what you shared.
    Total agreement here.
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith



    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found.

    http://theyoungearth.org

  5. #125

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    I would like it if you could extrapolate on this a little. I am listening.

    Nero.

    I think its better to see it was for their time only, first Century. They certainly anticipated it. And it happened in their lives. The Great Tribulation of 70AD. and because of the 4 verses, we know that there are many anti-Christ’s alive today.

    Hindus are Antichrist. Atheists are anti-Christ’s. Muslims and non-believing Jews are anti-Christ’s. Facts are facts.

    Agree. I also agree present day anti-Christs are still in Gods cross-hairs. And in ours, _for evangelism_ not necessarily war. If we convert the Jews we might just change history. If we don’t, God may do what it seems he always does, destroy the Jews. Perhaps there is a reason for the constant persecution they have faced since 70AD. Does not God use other nations to chastise His people? Don’t dispensationalists think there is going to be another holocaust?

    Imagine the headline, “Jews All Across the Globe Turn to Christ” “Jews finally recognize the True Messiah”

    Then, together, we convert our misled brothers, the Muslims, not with bombs; but with food, shelter and the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    They would receptive because we would show them the similarities between our religions. They would hear the truth because we would own the airwaves and pump out the GOSPEL everywhere across the earth. Making Gospel centred entertainment not the filth that Hollywood produces. After we get the Muslims online, the three groups of Christians ( us, Jews, and now converted Muslims ) would in turn, turn & concur the rest of the known world with the Gospel. There you have Heaven on earth fully concured by Evangislm AND THE POWER of God to open hearts and minds.

    Total agreement here.
    I agree with your emphasis on the antichrists of history and the antichrists of our own time being the priority. I do believe THE Antichrist is coming. But he will just be more of the same. We could name the antichrists of history. Every generation in history has faced them, from the Gnostics to the Globalists of our day.

    The one area we may disagree on--slightly--is on your optimism in converting others. The spirit of Satan has the effect of taking resistant people, and consolidating them into national and international groups who resist and attack Christianity. Without that spirit we might be able to bring peace on earth through the gospel. But as things are now, with Satan loose in the world, there is no chance that we will convert Israel, convert Muslim countries, or cause Europe to reverse its deChristianizing scheme.

    In my view there are two peoples on earth. There are those who will compromise with the gospel, and allow it to rule in our society. And there are those who will resist Christianity to the end. As long as Satan rules in this world, the antichristian forces will take its cue from Satan's spirit and obstruct, resist, and reject Christianity.

    However, the gospel will still take root in those who will compromise with the truth and accept it, in some measure, into their lives. I believe we should sort through the masses to find those open to the gospel, rather than try to impose it fully on everybody. It's not that I want to separate Christianity from the State. Rather, I think we need to let the State makes its own course, and focus our mission on those willing to listen.

    In the past entire countries have been willing to embrace the gospel. At one time Israel fully embraced the Kingdom of God. But over time the forces who are hostile to the gospel find the support of a solid consensus, and embrace the false confidence that they can fight Christian truth. Though it may seem the world is turning their way, it is equally true that God's justice will prevail in the end.

  6. #126

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I wish I could keep up with everyone around here. A lot of posts like this one I need to be addressing. While you do make some good points, I still feel you are maybe making some of these things more complicated than they need to be. Jesus' focus in the Discourse seems to be that of the church and what they are to expect until He returns. Keep in mind, the Discourse was a private conversation between He and His disciples at the time. He wasn't even addressing any unbelieving Jews at the time. So if a good majority of the Discourse had to do with the fate of unbelieving Israel, why then was He instead having a private discussion with faithful Israel instead, IOW the NT church?
    Thanks for your interest in my perspective. I get my perspective from reading the prophetic books of the Bible repeatedly. In the Prophets we see a largely exclusive focus on the nation Israel, on their history and on the hope of their future. The promise to Abraham of a nation in perpetuity is harped on again and again. And this promise is used by God as the basis for his regular forgiveness of Israel, and for His persistence in rescuing them.

    I don't see an irregular change, then, from the OT period to the NT period. Jesus was just engaging in the typical prophetic approach to Israel, predicting their demise, in response to their sins, and anticipating a very long period of dispersion. In this there was little difference from the Prophets predicting Israel's fall to the Assyrians and to the Babylonians.

    In fact, these earlier judgments serve, for me, as a prototype for understanding what Jesus was saying about Israel in his earthly ministry. It isn't as though Jesus was avoiding the eventual expansion of the gospel to the world. But he was focusing in on the typical problems Israel had always faced, as they capitulated to sin and fell as a nation under judgment. Those who were Christians among the Jews would continue to be God's People, and would expand outward to the nations.

  7. #127

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    A few thoughts for the thread............

    21*For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22*And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The 'elect" here are the 144,000. Through this ordeal of the GT which are the vial judgments this group repents and is saved. Note "saved" here does not mean "spared from death" rather spared long enough for them to turn and repent. The term "saved" means born with the Spirit.

    So we have the following.....

    day 1------1260. The very elect "saints" killed off in battle.

    day 1290. Once the saints have been overcome then the beast commits the AOD.

    day 1290--1335. This is the time of the GT (vials). During this time of God's wrath the beast goes to destroy the remnant of Israel (the elect) and they will be beheaded for not accepting the mark. God's wrath is shortened and does not consume the remnant. The remnant then are resurrected and become the firstfruits and the army of God which comes back with Christ after day 1335 to battle.

    The main point is that "saved" does not mean spared from death. No human survives the 2nd coming as only the wicked army are upon the earth living at this time.
    I certainly don't agree that only the wicked remain at Christ's Coming! However, we do have some points of agreement. Let me explain where we agree, and where we disagree.

    I don't think the 144,000 are exclusively God's elect, although I agree they likely represent the Jewish contingent of God's elect. We find in Rev 7 that the Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation. And so, the 144,000 are likely part of the Great Multitude coming out of what I believe to be a Great Tribulation that began with Israel.

    I define the Great Tribulation as beginning with Israel because that is how Jesus defined it, as a largely Jewish national dispersion. However, this Jewish tribulation encompassed Jewish Christians as well. The experience of the unbelieving Jews was somehwat different from the Christians among the Jews. However, both groups were viewed as going through a specifically *Jewish* tribulation.

    Inasmuch as Christians were originally part of this Jewish tribulation we may see the tribulation as today encompassing all those, from all nations, who are Christians. As early Jewish Christians were caught up in the tribulations of the nation Israel so Christians today are caught up in the tribulations of their own respective nations. Many of us live in non-Christian societies who come under the judgment of God. And so the Christian contingent in these nations suffer along with the whole nation, as it faces the judgments of God.

    I think the Reign of Antichrist encompasses only a 1260 day period. That's what the book of Revelation indicates. Conflating several different reigns mentioned in the book of Daniel with the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist presents a problem with interpretation. I believe the 1290 days refers to the reign of Antiochus 4. The 1260 days of Revelation, and the 3.5 years of Dan 7 refer to the reign of Antichrist.

    The Aod, I believe, refers to the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. So I don't believe we should conflate the Olivet Discourse with the book of Revelation either. If Antiochus 4 presented a shadowy picture of Antichrist, so did the Aod present a shadowy picture of the Antichrist. But we should not, I believe, confuse these prophesies. That just creates confusion, in my opinion.

  8. #128
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    True. The *remnant* is synonymous with the elect (Matt 24:22). At the end of the day, the unbelieving Jew is no different from the unbelieving Gentile as far as Jesus is concerned. I should clarify that the elect is not limited to ethnic Jews, but Jew and Gentile.
    As I understand the term "remnant", the word is more of a general category, indicating all of God's people who survived over the great expanse of time. But Joel is talking about a specific group of survivors, who came out of the purge event described earlier in his prophecy and also in Malachi 4.

  9. #129

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    I would like it if you could extrapolate on this a little. I am listening.
    In post #65 you mentioned that instead of focusing on a future Antichrist you believe all focus should be on the antichrists of history. And I agreed with this, although I would disagree that there is no future Antichrist. We are to focus on the antichrists of today because Christianity is not all about prophetic speculation. It is much more important to expose errors in our own time and in our own lives, so that we can better help prepare society for eternity.

    What were those antichrists in history? Well, you seemed to focus on some of the early Christian controversies, involving Gnosticism and the Creeds, as they defined "orthodoxy" against the lies and deceptions of Gnosticism.

    And I agree with this specific interest, inasmuch as I've spent a respectable amount of time reading about some of these early Trinitarian and Christological controversies. So I was just sharing your enthusiasm for continuing to address these elements in the antichrists of our own day. These kinds of errors continue to function.

    Early Gnosticism exists largely as a dead religion surviving in Christian documents that opposed it. It nevertheless has counterparts today, such as, I believe, the JWs. It was a religion that extended far beyond the word of God to encompass speculations about reality, incorporating religious elements into them. Christianity itself was used in the formation of these speculative fantasies, which only served to distract Christians away from the word of God to their own independent thoughts and ideas.

    The Trinitarian and Christology arguments, resulting in the orthodox creeds, were designed to refocus attention on the word of God, and on the fundamentals of what God's word meant on these issues. Even more important, these truths of the word of God were established alongside the spiritually renewed Christian *experience.* By contrast, those who were either pagan or willing to depart from a divine "orthodoxy" lacked this "Christian experience," and denied its existence. Christian or otherwise, these Gnostics thought we are all the same. It is our behavior that matters--not some supposed internal change.

    Obviously, I think the "internal change" is the critical element in Christianity. After all, behavioral change is just superficial if our basic attitudes do not change. If we give to the poor, but really hate the poor, then we are just serving the poor to "appear good," and for some public benefit.

    So the internal change is critical in my thinking. And Christian orthodoxy not only establishes what God's word is, but also, it protects this internal spiritual experience, and confirms it, rather than denying it. It is our job, therefore, to confirm Christian conversion on the inside, along with true biblical norms and biblical orthodoxy. Otherwise, we will lose God's word, and along with it, our spiritual experience, which is, as I said, critical.

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