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Thread: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

  1. #46
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I'm not one of them I don't think that it has anything to do with the 7 trumpets or bowls but I was claiming its the persecution of the saints. I also didn't add anything its the bible that says "The"
    I see the Greek does say 'the tribulation'. But not the great tribulation. Just a tribulation, or a time of hardship or ordeal.
    Why shouldn't that time of hardship be the Sixth Seal event? That premise suits the Revelation sequence; John starts Rev 7 with the words: After these things.....

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I appreciate the Christian "friendship"--I feel the same way. And I certainly don't wish any of our disagreements to be conflated into a threat to our friendship! Good friends can disagree agreeably.

    I've asked the same question you asked above. And this is what I think. I think the sheer length of the Jewish Dispersion and the threat to Jewish survival as an ethnicity was at stake. That is what made it so awful, so dangerous to the fulfillment of God's promises. 2000 years of Jewish Diaspora is a threat in terms of either assimilation or genocide. We've seen both happen over the last 2000 years.

    The "shortening" of the period of Great Tribulation would likely have to do with preventing either assimilation or genocide. Though a 2000 year period of time seems like a very long time, the Jews have survived all through this period. And since their survival is still being threatened, it does appear that somebody has to turn off the tap of antisemitism before Israel is gone, extinct?
    Your friendship is a treasure I will always cherish

    God promised to gather the Jews to their homeland and since God cannot lie, we have no reason to worry that Israel will cease to exist irrespective of the length of their dispersion. All through the ages, God has consistently come through with his promises, starting from Abraham to date. So for me, the length of their diaspora is never a threat to God's promise concerning them.

    Once again, it is my view that the Jewish experience from 70AD to date is not the Great Tribulation and, cutting it short to save lives just does not fit a tribulation that has been that long. Also, I don't think your concern for Jewish ethnicity and the need to deter assimilation with non-Jews is necessary. Perhaps, it's in their DNA, for the Jews have proved throughout their painful and chequered history, to have a knack for the preservation of their identity. This has been evident from the Egyptian, Babylonian exiles, A4E era, etc. Further, for God to fulfil his promise, he will certainly see them through every genocide against them.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've answered some of these points in the last hour or so. I'll briefly repeat here. The Great Tribulation, being a *Jewish experience,* does not exclude Christianity. The 1st Christians were, in fact, Jews.

    So Jesus here is speaking of Jewish Experience that *included* Christians. And by extension what applied to the early Jewish believers applies also to non-Jewish believers down through the age.

    I don't view the Great Tribulation to be a series of catastrophes, but more, a period of Jewish dislocation, a Diaspora. They were promised a land, and they haven't been living in it. Even worse, they haven't been living in it as God promised--a godly nation.

    So, any dislocation of the Jews from their homeland was disastrous both for them and for God's word! What made the Dispersion an unparalleled disaster in the history of Israel was the sheer length of time they would be away from their land and away from God's promises. And this would become a threat to their survival as a people, as we know from the series of disasters you referred to in their history. But this does include the Christian experience, as well--not just the Jewish believers, but by extension, non-Jewish believers as well.
    I appreciate your effort to include Christians in the supposed 2000+years of Jewish tribulation. Notice that I said "tribulation" here and in my view, that's what it is. Personally, when studying the GT, I rely on Matthew's Gospel more than Mark or Luke. Sometime last year, I explained what I believe Luke set out to do in his account of the tribulation by dividing it into two separate chapters (17 and 21), but he ended up confusing his readers more than he succeeded in what he set out to do - separate the events of 70AD from the future GT.

    But Matthew did an excellent job of presenting a simple clear narrative. In Matthew, you get the sense that the "Great Tribulation" is different from the many tribulations Jews and Christians have suffered since the crucifixion.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You may be mis-identifying the "flesh" you refer to. I don't believe this is referring to all of humanity, but rather, to Israel primarily. The word "flesh" is a generalized word with a specific application to Israel. It's like looking at London after its being bombed with a nuke and saying, "all flesh has perished." Its application is only to London.

    In the case of "all flesh" it is referring, specifically, to all the flesh of Israel, to the survival of the Jewish ethnicity, to the survival of the hope of Israel's inheritance.
    I find a contradiction in your position because, on one hand, you agree that the GT is inclusive of Christians. Yet on the other, you assert that "flesh" in the text refers exclusively to Israel. How can that be? Contextually, you cannot separate "flesh" from the "elect" whom the GT is being shortened. Unless you hold that the elect is primarily Jews? Otherwise, flesh also includes the international church.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    On the contrary, Jesus comes back to end Antichrist's reign. If Antichrist poses a threat to the Jews, continuing the process of antisemitism in history, then Jesus' coming will certainly "cut short" the threat to Jewish survival!

    I do believe that Antichrist will represent a new form of "Hellenization" of the Jews in his time. He will threaten the end of Christianity in Israel and in his empire. And the end of Christianity in Israel would spell the end of Israel itself. Israel doesn't know it, but they exist today only due to the hope of their Christianization. If the Christians there die, there will be no more hope for Israel! In my humble opinion...
    I'm still protesting your contention that the GT will be shortened when Christ returns. Whatever side (Pre-trib, Amil or Premil) one stands on the rapture argument, the common consensus is that the saints will be raptured before Jesus returns. With this in mind, if the GT is cut short only after Jesus returns, then it won't be to save the elects who you and I know will no longer be on earth. Remember you have already agreed that the church is part of the GT? So you can't include and exclude them when convenient.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I see the Greek does say 'the tribulation'. But not the great tribulation. Just a tribulation, or a time of hardship or ordeal.
    Why shouldn't that time of hardship be the Sixth Seal event? That premise suits the Revelation sequence; John starts Rev 7 with the words: After these things.....
    See my post #5 of this thread I explain it there

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I will get back to more of this but this below is why "the great tribulation is the persecution of the saints not "a great tribulation" but "The great tribulation"

    Revelation 7:9-14
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!”

    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    I think what the elder says proves it
    Absolutely, I've been referencing that as well. We're on the same page. The only difference with you I'm highlighting is one of degree. The definition of the Great Tribulation originates from Dan 12 and from Jesus' Olivet Discourse. They are defined as a *Jewish Experience.*

    My argument is that the Great Tribulation, being a Jewish Experience, is able to branch out to include a general Christian experience over time. Since the Jews included Christians, the Jewish Experience also includes the Christian Experience.

    As you know Jesus distinguished in the Jewish Experience between the Jewish believers and the Jewish unbelievers. The unbelievers would suffer the 70 AD judgment. The Christians were to pray to avoid that.

    Nevertheless, the Great Tribulation is, in my book, defined as a Jewish Experience. It's just that I agree with you--this Jewish Experience encompassed the Christian Experience among the Jews, as well. And by extension, it includes the general experience of all Christians, since the Jewish Christians and other Christians all form a single body.

  5. #50
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    One thing I do agree with Randy about though, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20, these are all referring to the same time period. If it weren't for the fact that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 place this time period during the AOD, I might be more inclined to think Luke 21:20 is meaning 70 AD. You yourself think it does, while the other two passages you conclude it doesn't. I don't see how that's being consistent though in how one is interpreting these things.
    It is entirely consistent to think Luke 21 is about 70 AD and Matt 24 is not.
    You need to read Luke 17, then realise that it is from the Olivet Discourse, and that Luke put things together topically.
    It then makes you realise that there are TWO different occasions that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse in which you were to flee.
    The sign for one (Luke 21 armies) is a different and incompatible sign with that in the other (Matt 24 the AoD).
    Armies are OUTSIDE surrounding - which in 66 AD then left, and so Christians fled.
    The AoD however is INSIDE - which is yet to happen, regardless of Randyk's attempts to explain it as having happened.

    For these to be about the same event, means you have armies inside and outside, in which case you cannot flee.

  6. #51
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Sure they suffered some from Rome by leaving their homes but they did relocate but they did not suffer God's wrath by death or taken prisoners God spared them that as they heeded Jesus' warning to leave the city
    Yes, I agree. My point is that the Jewish Experience incorporated the element of Jewish Christians. The Jewish Diaspora is described, as is the experience of Jewish believers, who would be persecuted both by Jews and Romans. The Great Tribulation, therefore, is a diverse Jewish experience, incorporating the experience of unbelieving Jews along with the experience of believing Jews.

    However, the Great Tribulation is defined as a *Jewish Experience.* By extension it can apply, however, to the general Christian experience of persecution and dislocation throughout the NT age, and including the Reign of Antichrist.

  7. #52

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is entirely consistent to think Luke 21 is about 70 AD and Matt 24 is not.
    You need to read Luke 17, then realise that it is from the Olivet Discourse, and that Luke put things together topically.
    It then makes you realise that there are TWO different occasions that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse in which you were to flee.
    The sign for one (Luke 21 armies) is a different and incompatible sign with that in the other (Matt 24 the AoD).
    Armies are OUTSIDE surrounding - which in 66 AD then left, and so Christians fled.
    The AoD however is INSIDE - which is yet to happen, regardless of Randyk's attempts to explain it as having happened.

    For these to be about the same event, means you have armies inside and outside, in which case you cannot flee.
    Agreed! I do believe God intends these TWO to be distinct, what most blur together into one thing.


  8. #53
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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your friendship is a treasure I will always cherish

    God promised to gather the Jews to their homeland and since God cannot lie, we have no reason to worry that Israel will cease to exist irrespective of the length of their dispersion. All through the ages, God has consistently come through with his promises, starting from Abraham to date. So for me, the length of their diaspora is never a threat to God's promise concerning them.

    Once again, it is my view that the Jewish experience from 70AD to date is not the Great Tribulation and, cutting it short to save lives just does not fit a tribulation that has been that long. Also, I don't think your concern for Jewish ethnicity and the need to deter assimilation with non-Jews is necessary. Perhaps, it's in their DNA, for the Jews have proved throughout their painful and chequered history, to have a knack for the preservation of their identity. This has been evident from the Egyptian, Babylonian exiles, A4E era, etc. Further, for God to fulfil his promise, he will certainly see them through every genocide against them.
    I think the threat of genocide committed against Israel is real. It's been real for centuries, and it'st still real. The Palestinians, the Iranians, and most of the Moslem world want to wipe them out. (They want to do this by assimilation, with respect to the people. They want to wipe out a "Jewish State" by military force.)

    The book of Esther was written to highlight this real and present danger. And yes, the longer Jewish vulnerability in the world continues, the greater the danger to Jewish extinction. It seems to me that the UN exists for the sole purpose of passing resolutions against the tiny state of Israel. Talk about bullying! You'd think a billion or so Muslims could find something better to do with their money and vast land holdings than to pick on a tiny portion of land in their Middle Eastern region?

    So no, I do think genocide is the danger that must be "cut short" at Christ's Coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I appreciate your effort to include Christians in the supposed 2000+years of Jewish tribulation. Notice that I said "tribulation" here and in my view, that's what it is. Personally, when studying the GT, I rely on Matthew's Gospel more than Mark or Luke. Sometime last year, I explained what I believe Luke set out to do in his account of the tribulation by dividing it into two separate chapters (17 and 21), but he ended up confusing his readers more than he succeeded in what he set out to do - separate the events of 70AD from the future GT.
    Luke did something great. He separated out portions of the Olivet Discourse for discussion that may have been discussed more than once, or something that had a secondary slant put on them. Luke was focusing on the fact that expectation of Christ's Coming was not a matter of timing out what events would happen when. Rather, the Kingdom is, in some mysterious sense, already with us. And we should be focused on that.

    Luke shows us, therefore, that Jesus' focus was on the then-present historical situation. It was clearly focused on the then-present plight of the Jews, with a fallen spirituality, danger from the Romans, and the persecution of Christian believers among them.

    In this, we clearly have a presentation of the entire NT Christian experience, as well as the entire NT Jewish experience, through the lens of the 1st century. And that is, I believe, how we should view the Olivet Discourse. It is not a "prophetic calendar," replete with signs offered for our entertainment and interpretation! Rather, it is a realistic perspective Christians must maintain in the present age to succeed in the gospel of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    But Matthew did an excellent job of presenting a simple clear narrative. In Matthew, you get the sense that the "Great Tribulation" is different from the many tribulations Jews and Christians have suffered since the crucifixion.
    My argument is that Matthew, Mark, and Luke relate the exact same Discourse. And Luke clearly defines the Great Tribulation as the Jewish Experience, beginning in Jesus' time and ending at the Coming of Christ.

    As I pointed out to Marty, the Jewish Experience incorporated the Christian experience as well, because the Jewish People included Christians. As such, the Jewish believers were described as being persecuted by Jews and Romans at that time.

    And by extension this applies to Christians everywhere all down through the age. This does not, however, disturb my definition of the Great Tribulation, which is, I believe, how Jesus defined it in Luke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I find a contradiction in your position because, on one hand, you agree that the GT is inclusive of Christians. Yet on the other, you assert that "flesh" in the text refers exclusively to Israel. How can that be? Contextually, you cannot separate "flesh" from the "elect" whom the GT is being shortened. Unless you hold that the elect is primarily Jews? Otherwise, flesh also includes the international church.
    The "all flesh" reference is to Israel. The Great Tribulation refers to the Jewish Experience. And the Jewish Experience incorporates both the believers' experience and the unbelievers' experience.

    These experiences were different, respectively. However, we are indeed talking about the Jewish Experience at that time.

    By extension, this description would incorporate believers from other nations over time, because the gospel adopted by the Jewish believers later was adopted by believers from other nations. As such, the Great Tribulation begins as a Jewish Experience and ends up incorporating the experience of all Christians.

    It has to do with a *bilateral experience* between the unbelievers among the Jews who experience judgment, and believers among the Jews who are now united with believers from all nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I'm still protesting your contention that the GT will be shortened when Christ returns. Whatever side (Pre-trib, Amil or Premil) one stands on the rapture argument, the common consensus is that the saints will be raptured before Jesus returns. With this in mind, if the GT is cut short only after Jesus returns, then it won't be to save the elects who you and I know will no longer be on earth. Remember you have already agreed that the church is part of the GT? So you can't include and exclude them when convenient.
    I see the Rapture of the Church *at* Christ's Coming--not before. Christ comes to rescue all Christians from persecution. And he comes to rescue the nation Israel from destruction, since the destruction of the Israeli State could mean extinction of the Jewish People.

  9. #54

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I see the Greek does say 'the tribulation'. But not the great tribulation. Just a tribulation, or a time of hardship or ordeal.
    Why shouldn't that time of hardship be the Sixth Seal event? That premise suits the Revelation sequence; John starts Rev 7 with the words: After these things.....
    I think all greek mss agree in 7:14 the wording is 'tes thilipsos tes megalis' or 'the tribulation the great' or in english grammar 'the great tribulation'....

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I see the Greek does say 'the tribulation'. But not the great tribulation. Just a tribulation, or a time of hardship or ordeal.
    Why shouldn't that time of hardship be the Sixth Seal event? That premise suits the Revelation sequence; John starts Rev 7 with the words: After these things.....
    Because that text in rev 7 is talking about the Saints in heaven who came out of the great tribulation as in they were killed during it

  11. #56

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Because that text in rev 7 is talking about the Saints in heaven who came out of the great tribulation as in they were killed during it
    Yes killed during it, and perhaps taken to heaven alive at the end of it as well? If they remained alive until the end of it and met Christ in the air? 1 Thessalonians 4:15

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Agreed! I do believe God intends these TWO to be distinct, what most blur together into one thing.

    More agrement!

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    and not only did they lose there city

    Looks like they got it back though as of the last century. Now what?

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    It seems to me, those that conclude the great tribulation was meaning the first century, mainly having to do with 70 AD, how then do they explain the great multitude seen in heaven who come out of great tribulation? In 70 AD these were mainly unbelieving Jews that were killed. One is to believe these unbelieving Jews killed in 70 AD are the ones seen in the book of Revelation below?

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    I don't know how anyone could deny that this proves that the following isn't meaning 70 AD and the slaughtering of the unbelieving Jews at that time.

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The elect in verse 22 are not meaning unbelieving Jews.

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    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Absolutely, I've been referencing that as well. We're on the same page. The only difference with you I'm highlighting is one of degree. The definition of the Great Tribulation originates from Dan 12 and from Jesus' Olivet Discourse. They are defined as a *Jewish Experience.*

    My argument is that the Great Tribulation, being a Jewish Experience, is able to branch out to include a general Christian experience over time. Since the Jews included Christians, the Jewish Experience also includes the Christian Experience.

    As you know Jesus distinguished in the Jewish Experience between the Jewish believers and the Jewish unbelievers. The unbelievers would suffer the 70 AD judgment. The Christians were to pray to avoid that.

    Nevertheless, the Great Tribulation is, in my book, defined as a Jewish Experience. It's just that I agree with you--this Jewish Experience encompassed the Christian Experience among the Jews, as well. And by extension, it includes the general experience of all Christians, since the Jewish Christians and other Christians all form a single body.

    Yes we are very close but slightly different. Yes some christian Jews did suffer the tribulation against the Jews but that wasn't "The great tribulation" but it was a great tribulation. "The great tribulation" from revelation chapter 7 was against the church which included Jewish Christians.

    First I see "The great tribulation" as against Christians only which includes christian Jews (Rev 7). So where you see the great tribulation is against the Jews which included christian Jews I see the great tribulation against the Christians which includes christian Jews. Again there can be many great tribulations but only one Great tribulation. Let me show you were I get my idea from

    Revelation 12:13-16
    13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

    So above we see the woman (Israel made up of believing and unbelieving Jews) was protected by God from the dragon (satan) for a set time. We know the women is Israel because Jesus came from her and she is referenced from the Old testament events (carried to safety upon eagle wings like stated during the Exodus and being saved from the flood)

    Now verse 17 is the key

    Rev 12:17
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Now as we see above "the great tribulation is against the church (both Jew and gentile) who came from Israel and the ones who keep the testimony of Jesus

    It is also in in my opinion that we see what happens to this woman who was left protected in the desert when we see her next when she is found in the desert in Revelation chapter 17. Now the Christians have left her and Gods tribulation is upon her
    Last edited by marty fox; Jan 13th 2018 at 11:28 PM. Reason: added info

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