the Great Tribulation and the AoD

[Trivalee]

Randy, you are doing the usual thing of confusing the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, with the great ordeal; Revelation 7:14, of the Sixth Seal.

The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event we can expect. It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Thinking that Jesus will exhibit His wrath when He Returns, is quite wrong. Revelation 15:1 is clear: the wrath of God is completed with the GT.
And as for thinking that God's wrath is to do with the Jewish persecution since 70AD, that is error. They are Satanic attacks. Who motivated Hitler?

I seldom agree with you Brother Keraz, but on this, I'm with you 110%. A protracted 2000+ great tribulation makes no sense. My good friend Randy says it will end when Jesus returns. This, therefore, raises the question why Jesus said it be shortened to save lives? Both Daniel 12:1 and Matt 24:21-22 confirm that this GT will be unprecedented and without comparison.

It is my submission that a GT that has lasted over 2000 years and still counting contradicts what the scriptures say about it.

(1.a) A catastrophe of unimaginable proportions such as was not since the beginning of the world.
(b) This statement leads me to conclude that the GT is in a class of its own. Its duration will be brief, but its impact on life and property will be indescribable
(c) It is not a bunch of disasters and calamities spreading over several millenniums!
(2) It must be cut short for flesh to survive.
(3) It is not a Jewish tribulation, but a tragedy with worldwide ramifications.
(4) It is a misnomer to assume that the "saints" on whose behalf the GT is shortened is Israel. Jews are never described as saints, so the saints here are ALL those in Christ (Jew and Gentile).

It is very easy to build a persuasive case for a GT that runs from 70AD to the Glorious Coming and have others nodding their head in agreement. My query to those who share this view is since humanity has not been wiped out by this 2000+ tribulation, doesn't it make Jesus a liar for saying that without divine intervention, no flesh will survive?


Furthermore, if it ends when Jesus returns, it won't amount to it being cut short.

[randyk]

I see you contradicting your own position though.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

You conclude this was meaning 70 AD or so.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You also conclude this was meaning 70 AD or so, yet ongoing at the same time. What then is your definition of fulfilled? Must not be what my definition of fulfilled is. For example, it was prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. That has been fulfilled thus not in an ongoing state. When something is fulfilled, it means it is entirely finished in regards to what is being fulfilled. It therefore makes no sense that this same great tribulation can be fulfilled 2000 years ago while at the same time, this same great tribulation continues in an ongoing sense. Seriously then, how does one apply...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...to two different time periods? What does it say about the great tribulation? Does it not say...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

If that's connected to 70 AD, how then can this same great tribulation apply to our day in the same way, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be? You can't have the great tribulation without that part. The great tribulation clearly equals such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Meaning throughout it, every square inch of it.

I'm not sure I understand the problem, but let me have a go at it. You can correct me if I misunderstand?

You think I'm saying the 70 AD event was the prophesied "unparalleled event" in history? If so, no, I'm certainly *not* saying that! What I'm saying is that Jesus himself distinguished between two things here. One, he said there would be an initiating event, a "beginning of sorrows," which I think is the 70 AD event. And two, he said there would follow the Great Tribulation of the Jewish Dispersion, lasting from the 70 AD event to the end of the age.

In this Jesus is clearly distinguishing between two events, the 70 AD event and the Great Tribulation Jewish Experience. *Both of these items* constitute the "unparalleled event" in Jewish history. It was not the 70 AD experience alone that constituted the worst judgment in history, or the "unparalleled event." Rather, it was the sheer *length of time,* from the 70 AD event to the end of the Jewish Diaspora that made this *entire experience* an unparalleled judgment in the history of Israel.

Previous judgments against Israel, or even previous negative experiences of Israel, have lasted for extensive periods of time. Israel went down to Egypt for 400 years before returning to Canaan by the leadership of Moses. Israel was in Babylon for 70 years before returning under the leadership of Ezra and Nehemiah.

What makes the NT Jewish Diaspora the worst judgment in Jewish history is the *sheer length of time* that it incorporates before Israel is restored! There has been nothing like it in history. It has been so long that Replacement Theologians and the historic Church largely gave up on any idea of an Israeli restoration! But I believe Israel will be restored, as evidenced by the existence of the modern Jewish State.

It is *not* the sheer barbarity of the 70 AD event that made a momentary event like that the "worst in history." Every judgment has equal barbarity. What makes the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of as the worst in the history of the Jews was the sheer length of time for this "Captivity."

The Jews were good about tracking the times of their dislocations. The Great Tribulation is just the longest period of Jewish dislocation in history. Nobody can argue with that!

I think the real problem here is that we've been conditioned to view "unparalleled atrocities" in terms of isolated events, like catastrophes, accidents, crimes against humanity, genocides, etc. However, I don't think that this was the meaning of an "unparalleled event" for Jesus.

I don't think he was looking at it as the most graphic, most barbaric incident of cruelty. He certainly would experience that on the cross. No, I think he was looking at it as the worst *setback* for Israel as a nation of God that it had ever experienced.

Would it be graphic and catastrophic? Certainly! It would even threaten the survival of the Jews as a people, whether from assimilation or genocide. But the element of it being "unparalleled" in history comes from its length of time, I believe, and not from the "crime section" of our newspaper.

[randyk]

I seldom agree with you Brother Keraz, but on this, I'm with you 110%. A protracted 2000+ great tribulation makes no sense. My good friend Randy says it will end when Jesus returns. This, therefore, raises the question why Jesus said it be shortened to save lives? Both Daniel 12:1 and Matt 24:21-22 confirm that this GT will be unprecedented and without comparison.

I appreciate the Christian "friendship"--I feel the same way. And I certainly don't wish any of our disagreements to be conflated into a threat to our friendship! Good friends can disagree agreeably.

I've asked the same question you asked above. And this is what I think. I think the sheer length of the Jewish Dispersion and the threat to Jewish survival as an ethnicity was at stake. That is what made it so awful, so dangerous to the fulfillment of God's promises. 2000 years of Jewish Diaspora is a threat in terms of either assimilation or genocide. We've seen both happen over the last 2000 years.

The "shortening" of the period of Great Tribulation would likely have to do with preventing either assimilation or genocide. Though a 2000 year period of time seems like a very long time, the Jews have survived all through this period. And since their survival is still being threatened, it does appear that somebody has to turn off the tap of antisemitism before Israel is gone, extinct?

It is my submission that a GT that has lasted over 2000 years and still counting contradicts what the scriptures say about it.

(1.a) A catastrophe of unimaginable proportions such as was not since the beginning of the world.
(b) This statement leads me to conclude that the GT is in a class of its own. Its duration will be brief, but its impact on life and property will be indescribable
(c) It is not a bunch of disasters and calamities spreading over several millenniums!
(2) It must be cut short for flesh to survive.
(3) It is not a Jewish tribulation, but a tragedy with worldwide ramifications.
(4) It is a misnomer to assume that the "saints" on whose behalf the GT is shortened is Israel. Jews are never described as saints, so the saints here are ALL those in Christ (Jew and Gentile).

I've answered some of these points in the last hour or so. I'll briefly repeat here. The Great Tribulation, being a *Jewish experience,* does not exclude Christianity. The 1st Christians were, in fact, Jews.

So Jesus here is speaking of Jewish Experience that *included* Christians. And by extension what applied to the early Jewish believers applies also to non-Jewish believers down through the age.

I don't view the Great Tribulation to be a series of catastrophes, but more, a period of Jewish dislocation, a Diaspora. They were promised a land, and they haven't been living in it. Even worse, they haven't been living in it as God promised--a godly nation.

So, any dislocation of the Jews from their homeland was disastrous both for them and for God's word! What made the Dispersion an unparalleled disaster in the history of Israel was the sheer length of time they would be away from their land and away from God's promises. And this would become a threat to their survival as a people, as we know from the series of disasters you referred to in their history. But this does include the Christian experience, as well--not just the Jewish believers, but by extension, non-Jewish believers as well.

It is very easy to build a persuasive case for a GT that runs from 70AD to the Glorious Coming and have others nodding their head in agreement. My query to those who share this view is since humanity has not been wiped out by this 2000+ tribulation, doesn't it make Jesus a liar by saying without divine intervention, no flesh will survive?

You may be mis-identifying the "flesh" you refer to. I don't believe this is referring to all of humanity, but rather, to Israel primarily. The word "flesh" is a generalized word with a specific application to Israel. It's like looking at London after its being bombed with a nuke and saying, "all flesh has perished." Its application is only to London.

In the case of "all flesh" it is referring, specifically, to all the flesh of Israel, to the survival of the Jewish ethnicity, to the survival of the hope of Israel's inheritance.

Furthermore, if it ends when Jesus returns, it won't amount to it being cut short.

On the contrary, Jesus comes back to end Antichrist's reign. If Antichrist poses a threat to the Jews, continuing the process of antisemitism in history, then Jesus' coming will certainly "cut short" the threat to Jewish survival!

I do believe that Antichrist will represent a new form of "Hellenization" of the Jews in his time. He will threaten the end of Christianity in Israel and in his empire. And the end of Christianity in Israel would spell the end of Israel itself. Israel doesn't know it, but they exist today only due to the hope of their Christianization. If the Christians there die, there will be no more hope for Israel! In my humble opinion...

[TheDivineWatermark]

If the Christians there die, there will be no more hope for Israel! In my humble opinion...

So you don't think the 144,000, whom the passage calls "servants of our God," have anything to do with it? (or do you see those as [could be] "Christians" of today [what I'm calling "the Church which is His body" (not Christendom)]...? I don't, just to be clear. )

[randyk]

Keraz, you were asking how the One World Govt. and the predicted Heavenly Signs of Jesus fit into my scheme? In other words, how can I view the Great Tribulation as being the Jewish Experience in the NT Age and still find a place for these two major prophecies?

Let's look, briefly, at a section of the Olivet Discourse, as compared by the three synoptic gospels...



Matthew 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Mark 13.24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

Luke 17.24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation."
Luke 21.25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Jesus made the following points in this portion of his address, which incorporated the "heavenly signs."

1) Jesus said a period of distress will precede the coming of Christ's Kingdom. This will consist of both heavenly and earthly signs. From heaven there will be natural disasters. On earth there will be international turmoil.
2) Jesus said the peoples will see him come as the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven with glory, an obvious reference to Dan 7.13-14.
3) Jesus said he will send his angels to gather his elect to heaven.

The distress here referred to is explained by Luke to be the Jewish Diaspora, from the destruction of the temple in 70 AD to the end of the age. This Jewish "dislocation" from their Promised Land would precede the coming of the Lord.

The reference to men seeing the coming of the Son of Man is a reference to Zech 12.10. It initially applied to the Jews in that book. But in the book of Revelation it is applied to all peoples of the earth. There is here clearly an expansion of witnesses to Christ's coming from Israel to all nations!

The reference to the Son of Man coming is to Dan 7.13-14. In Daniel this coming has to do with the establishment of God's Kingdom on behalf of Israel. But by extension it would apply to the international Church as well.

Thus, Jesus' reference to the gathering of his elect would apply equally to Jewish Christians as to non-Jewish Christians. Certainly Abraham had been promised a family of nations. And Jesus was certainly aware that his gospel would be expanded to include other nations beyond Israel.

And so, this salvation is directed from heaven and draws men to heaven. It is a specifically heaven-directed activity, causing events from heaven and within our human environment. The heavenly signs, thus, indicate God is controlling the cosmos, and also controls events on earth, including the international turmoil we presently experience.

International turmoil must precede Christ's coming in much the same way that Adam and Eve could not reenter the paradise of Eden until full redemption had been made for them. The world remains in chaos because it is in a state of sin. And those who have been redeemed must await their full redemption at the coming of Christ before entering into their final destiny.

The important element in all this is that the heavenly signs show that all of earth's events are directed from heaven towards Christ's objective of redeeming his people. Jesus did not describe precisely what and when these "signs" would occur. He simply referred all of history to divine control such that whatever events happen, in the sky or on earth, they are the product of divine guidance. And the events God has determined includes both judgment and salvation.

As to the One World Government, I would refer you to the 4th Beast of Dan 7. The Roman Empire was a sytem that died, in a sense, in 476 AD. And yet, it has recovered, and has produced modern Europe. I don't see how the existence of a unified Europe has any bearing on my view of the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Experience?

Perhaps you think I'm relegating all of Jesus' prophecies to the 1st generation? I don't. But I do think he presented the 1st generation and its experiences as a microcosm for Christian experience throughout the age. What the Jews went through with their AoD is similar to what Christians go through in their respective countries--backsliding, apostasy, and oppression.

[marty fox]

Well, I respectfully disagree with you on some of these points, largely because they are based on underlying assumptions made by Dispensationalists. You seem to accept their underlying assumption that a "great tribulation" by definition indicates a persecution of Christians. I don't believe that's necessarily true.

I think the focus of the Great Tribulation is on the Jewish experience primarily. The Jews, of course, included both Christians and non-Christians. But this Great Tribulation is here specifically defined as a *Jewish* experience. Later on, in the book of Revelation, it is defined more broadly as an international Christian experience, as well.

I will get back to more of this but this below is why "the great tribulation is the persecution of the saints not "a great tribulation" but "The great tribulation"

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I think what the elder says proves it

[marty fox]

How do you justify the Aod in matthew as what happened in 70 ad when ww2 was a far greater tribulation on Jews and Gentiles?

Or how about that all nations would hate Israel, which was def not a fact in 70 ad, in fact it was impossible. Information wasn’t available for such a thing.

For the final nail in the coffin, how do you justify that Jesus says “Immediatly following the tribulation of those days” as in the great tribulation He’s speaking of which He begins it with the Aod, He tells them He’s going to collect the saints.

You either missed out on being gathered and you’re actually in hell right now living a fake life that will forever be separated from God or you horribly miss interpret basic wording in scripture.

Yes more Jews died in WW2 but in 70AD it was 11 out of every 12 people but what made 70AD the worst time was that they realized that God rejected them and not only did they lose there city but they lost their temple and God allowed it.

I think that its more of all nations hating Christians than Jews

I don't believe that the rapture is in the Olivit discourse but God gathering the surviving Jews the elect

Matthew 24:22
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

If Matthew 24:31 is the rapture then why are the saints told to flee Jerusalem in verse 16?

[marty fox]

So, the gospels, and Daniel, and history, fit like a glove. I agree with you; the Roman army was the 'Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place.' (Matt 24:15)

But futurists point to 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 13:14 and say that is what Matthew was referring to. The historical interpretation and the futurist interpretation are both persuasive, so how do we tie them together without chucking one view out in favour of the other?

I disagree with 2 Thess 2 & Rev 13 being the AOD

[marty fox]

As I'm trying to show here, Jesus' definition of the Great Tribulation is the experience of the Jewish People throughout the NT age, beginning with the events of 70 AD. The 70 AD experience was merely the "beginning of birth paints." The Jews consisted, in Jesus' time, of both Christians and non-Christians. And so, the Jewish Christians suffered "great tribulation" along with their non-Christian Jewish brethren. They were dislocated by the Romans.

The Jewish believers suffered, like their non-Christian Jewish brethren, from deprivations caused by the invading Roman Army. They were scattered and dispossessed of their property. But they also suffered because of their message, which both the Jews and the Romans rejected. Whether or not this Christian experience can be incorporated into any definition of the Great Tribulation may be arguable?

Sure they suffered some from Rome by leaving their homes but they did relocate but they did not suffer God's wrath by death or taken prisoners God spared them that as they heeded Jesus' warning to leave the city

[Keraz]

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I think what the elder says proves it

It is this verse that trips so many of you up. The translators who say 'great tribulation' in verse 14, do not mean the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; but are referring to the just happened 'great ordeal' [as the REBible has it] of the Sixth Seal. Also you have added 'the'. Your serious and unacceptable addition.

Because people are locked into false ideas of the church going to heaven, etc, they don't see how the Lord will send His 'sudden destruction' 1 Thess 5:3, upon the world. This many prophesied disaster will change the world as we know it and commence all the prophesied end time things, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

Thanks for your agreement, Trivalee, in #31. But your exegesis of the Great Tribulation is about as confused and unscriptural as any I've seen.

[ross3421]

It is this verse that trips so many of you up. The translators who say 'great tribulation' in verse 14, do not mean the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; but are referring to the just happened 'great ordeal' [as the REBible has it] of the Sixth Seal. Also you have added 'the'. Your serious and unacceptable addition.

Agree!!!..........................

[marty fox]

It is this verse that trips so many of you up. The translators who say 'great tribulation' in verse 14, do not mean the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; but are referring to the just happened 'great ordeal' [as the REBible has it] of the Sixth Seal. Also you have added 'the'. Your serious and unacceptable addition.

Because people are locked into false ideas of the church going to heaven, etc, they don't see how the Lord will send His 'sudden destruction' 1 Thess 5:3, upon the world. This many prophesied disaster will change the world as we know it and commence all the prophesied end time things, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

Thanks for your agreement, Trivalee, in #31. But your exegesis of the Great Tribulation is about as confused and unscriptural as any I've seen.

I'm not one of them I don't think that it has anything to do with the 7 trumpets or bowls but I was claiming its the persecution of the saints. I also didn't add anything its the bible that says "The"

[ross3421]

I'm not one of them I don't think that it has anything to do with the 7 trumpets or bowls but I was claiming its the persecution of the saints. I also didn't add anything its the bible that says "The"

The bible KJV does not say "the". Though rev 7 was a great tribulation the GT in matt 24 is greater. The saints are killed by the beast during the 1260 days. The GT in matt is after the 1260.

[TheDivineWatermark]

I also didn't add anything its the bible that says "The"

Correct. It does:

http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/7-14.htm [Revelation 7:14]

[marty fox]

The bible KJV does not say "the". Though rev 7 was a great tribulation the GT in matt 24 is greater. The saints are killed by the beast during the 1260 days. The GT in matt is after the 1260.

Just an FYI it doesn't say "the great tribulation" anywhere in Matthew chapter 24