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Thread: Luke 17.30--when?

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    Luke 17.30--when?

    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

    In Luke 17 we have several portions of the Olivet Discourse extracted and presented, in its natural order, before the more formal presentation of that Discourse in Luke 21. The emphasis is on the *presence of the Kingdom,* as opposed to a kind of excessive futurism, in which eschatological events are relegated to the distant future without adequate representation in the present.

    Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Jesus was saying that there is a necessary *present application* of his Kingdom that must focus on the fact that Jesus' Coming will be in judgment, like lightning. This will be preceded by the sins that precipitate this Coming, consisting of causing Jesus to suffer and be rejected by his people, the Jews.

    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?

    I don't actually think the "revelation of the Son of Man" has as much to do with his actual coming as with its *present application* of his coming. It would be *any day in which Christ reveals himself to Israel through judgment.*

    It isn't as though the literal 2nd Coming will not occur. It will. It is just that the present application of that event is any day in which Christ reveals himself to men in the form of comprehensive national judgment.

    Do we have precedent for that in the Scriptures? Of course. In a number of places the Scriptures describe a divine judgment in which Israel would come to know God. "In that day you will know that I am God." It had to do with a divine judgment. And this took place in 70 AD.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

    In Luke 17 we have several portions of the Olivet Discourse extracted and presented, in its natural order, before the more formal presentation of that Discourse in Luke 21. The emphasis is on the *presence of the Kingdom,* as opposed to a kind of excessive futurism, in which eschatological events are relegated to the distant future without adequate representation in the present.

    Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Jesus was saying that there is a necessary *present application* of his Kingdom that must focus on the fact that Jesus' Coming will be in judgment, like lightning. This will be preceded by the sins that precipitate this Coming, consisting of causing Jesus to suffer and be rejected by his people, the Jews.

    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?

    I don't actually think the "revelation of the Son of Man" has as much to do with his actual coming as with its *present application* of his coming. It would be *any day in which Christ reveals himself to Israel through judgment.*

    It isn't as though the literal 2nd Coming will not occur. It will. It is just that the present application of that event is any day in which Christ reveals himself to men in the form of comprehensive national judgment.

    Do we have precedent for that in the Scriptures? Of course. In a number of places the Scriptures describe a divine judgment in which Israel would come to know God. "In that day you will know that I am God." It had to do with a divine judgment. And this took place in 70 AD.
    Here's some thoughts that I just typed up after seeing the title of this thread in the list of topics. I typed this up before reading your OP though. So what I typed up has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with anything in the OP, at least as of now.

    Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    Let's assume we take it to mean the 2nd coming. How then does one explain verses 31-33? Yet at the same time, verses 34-36 make sense if meaning the 2nd coming. It can't be both though. In this case verses 31-33 would have to trump, meaning verses 34-36 need to be interpreted with verses 31-33 in mind. So even though it might seem like verses 34-36 fit the 2nd coming, verses 31-33 prove that it doesn't.

    What's interesting about this is verse 31.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


    If we compare that to the following....

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
    16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    It appears the timing in Luke 17:30-37 is during the AOD.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house

    Wouldn't Jesus be rather confusing if He is not even talking about the same events in both passages? And let's assume I'm correct here, who would apply Luke 17:30-37 to the first century leading up to 70 AD, and why? But that's what they would be applying it to though if that same one is applying Mark 13:14-16 to the first century leading up to 70 AD, assuming Luke 17:30-37 are referring to these same events.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

    In Luke 17 we have several portions of the Olivet Discourse extracted and presented, in its natural order, before the more formal presentation of that Discourse in Luke 21. The emphasis is on the *presence of the Kingdom,* as opposed to a kind of excessive futurism, in which eschatological events are relegated to the distant future without adequate representation in the present.

    Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Jesus was saying that there is a necessary *present application* of his Kingdom that must focus on the fact that Jesus' Coming will be in judgment, like lightning. This will be preceded by the sins that precipitate this Coming, consisting of causing Jesus to suffer and be rejected by his people, the Jews.

    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?

    I don't actually think the "revelation of the Son of Man" has as much to do with his actual coming as with its *present application* of his coming. It would be *any day in which Christ reveals himself to Israel through judgment.*

    It isn't as though the literal 2nd Coming will not occur. It will. It is just that the present application of that event is any day in which Christ reveals himself to men in the form of comprehensive national judgment.

    Do we have precedent for that in the Scriptures? Of course. In a number of places the Scriptures describe a divine judgment in which Israel would come to know God. "In that day you will know that I am God." It had to do with a divine judgment. And this took place in 70 AD.
    Either you are one of the deepest thinkers I think I have ever encountered, or you're making some of these things more complicated than they need to be. I haven't made up my mind which. But of course I don't know if these things are solely your own reasoning of things, or if you perhaps have had help along the way, such as through various books you may have read, various commentaries you may have read, etc. Speaking for myself, my conclusions, whatever they might be, meaning in general, are a result of my own reasoning through what I'm reading in the Scriptures myself.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

    In Luke 17 we have several portions of the Olivet Discourse extracted and presented, in its natural order, before the more formal presentation of that Discourse in Luke 21. The emphasis is on the *presence of the Kingdom,* as opposed to a kind of excessive futurism, in which eschatological events are relegated to the distant future without adequate representation in the present.

    Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Jesus was saying that there is a necessary *present application* of his Kingdom that must focus on the fact that Jesus' Coming will be in judgment, like lightning. This will be preceded by the sins that precipitate this Coming, consisting of causing Jesus to suffer and be rejected by his people, the Jews.

    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?

    I don't actually think the "revelation of the Son of Man" has as much to do with his actual coming as with its *present application* of his coming. It would be *any day in which Christ reveals himself to Israel through judgment.*

    It isn't as though the literal 2nd Coming will not occur. It will. It is just that the present application of that event is any day in which Christ reveals himself to men in the form of comprehensive national judgment.

    Do we have precedent for that in the Scriptures? Of course. In a number of places the Scriptures describe a divine judgment in which Israel would come to know God. "In that day you will know that I am God." It had to do with a divine judgment. And this took place in 70 AD.
    I would take issue with your statement that Jesus revealed himself to the men of that generation, UNLESS,

    There are documents stating something on the order of what is found in the book of Ezekiel, "ye shall know that I am the Lord", or maybe something like, "you shall know that i have sent this judgment on you". I am not talking about believing that from a historical point of view. Just believing that God sent that judgment, does not make it so. You need to produce something written from that days perspective. Did the Jews of that day believe, when it happened, that God did that? If not, you have a pointless question.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Here's some thoughts that I just typed up after seeing the title of this thread in the list of topics. I typed this up before reading your OP though. So what I typed up has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with anything in the OP, at least as of now.

    Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    Let's assume we take it to mean the 2nd coming. How then does one explain verses 31-33? Yet at the same time, verses 34-36 make sense if meaning the 2nd coming. It can't be both though. In this case verses 31-33 would have to trump, meaning verses 34-36 need to be interpreted with verses 31-33 in mind. So even though it might seem like verses 34-36 fit the 2nd coming, verses 31-33 prove that it doesn't.

    What's interesting about this is verse 31.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


    If we compare that to the following....

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
    16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    It appears the timing in Luke 17:30-37 is during the AOD.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house

    Wouldn't Jesus be rather confusing if He is not even talking about the same events in both passages? And let's assume I'm correct here, who would apply Luke 17:30-37 to the first century leading up to 70 AD, and why? But that's what they would be applying it to though if that same one is applying Mark 13:14-16 to the first century leading up to 70 AD, assuming Luke 17:30-37 are referring to these same events.
    Sounds like we're looking at the same things? Anyway, thanks for asking. I've been doing a more extensive review of the Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. I've designated common areas of the Discourse as 7 distinct subjects:
    1) Birth Pains
    2) Gospel Ministry
    3) The AoD
    4) The 2nd Coming
    5) The timing of the temple's destruction
    6) The timing of the 2nd Coming
    7) Keeping Vigilant

    I've compared all 3 versions under each category. Luke 17 only applies to 3 of these categories, 3, 4, and 6. So as I've been saying, this retains the same order as Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It just appears that Luke 17 is extracted from the account of the Discourse in Luke 21 for special discussion in a lead up to that Discourse.

    And as I said, this is plainly an effort to project eschatology as something to be taken seriously *in the present.* My guess here is that this was Jesus' whole point in comparing the prediction of the temple's demise with the 2nd Coming. The 2nd Coming will take care of itself. It is in the present that Christ will reveal himself in current activities, including in the judgment of 70 AD.

    I did find in the early chapters of Ezekiel the common phrase, "and you shall know that I am the Lord," in connection with the coming Babylonian Judgment. And I've discovered that Ezekiel's prophecies of the imminent judgment of Jerusalem by Babylon is eerily similar to Jesus' prediction of the imminent fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    So I do feel that the revelation of the Son of Man has much to do with focusing Jesus' disciples on contemporary acts of divine judgment, and seeing that as a preliminary type of Christ's 2nd Coming. I really hate to say this, because I've long distanced myself from Preterism. And I still don't see myself as a Preterist.

    But Glory brought up some interesting points about Luke 17 a while back--very good points. And I had to resolve them somehow. I found all of the synoptic gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse harmonious, with the exception of my singular difficulty with this one verse, in which the day of the Lord's revelation will take place, and the Jews will be fleeing, etc.

    I do see much of the imagery used for Christ's Coming applicable to the then-current generation, in particular as it applied to the 70 AD judgment. Jews came down from their housetops in 66 AD, when Cestius Gallus approached and stood at the gates of Jerusalem. He was the "abomination standing in the holy place." And he withdrew before conquering Jerusalem.

    This was the sign that Christians were to flee. This judgment was for unbelieving Jews, and not for Christians. And flee they did, going to Pella. This is a matter of historical record. They literally came down from their housetops, pregnant women and young mothers, and made their way to the wilderness, where they were prepared to endure hardships, rather than die like Lot's wife in the battle over Jerusalem.

    Eventually Jerusalem did fall in 70 AD before the forces of Titus. He proved that the Roman Army was the abomination that caused *desolation.* He desolated much of Jerusalem, as well as the entire temple. The work was completed on Jerusalem later in 135 AD.

    I do believe that Jesus wanted his disciples to focus on their present time and on their present ministries, just as we should. There's nothing wrong with looking to the future, and trying to anticipate things. But our spiritual life is "here and now," watching how God is leading us in the present. If we stay focused on Christ now, we will always be ready. It has nothing to do with expecting Christ's return at any minute! It has everything to do with being a good steward of our gifts, which God has given us.

    So I believe the AoD is the 66-70 AD event, and the day of Christ's revelation was the judgment of Christ in that context. But the eschatological Coming of Christ, similarly, has its focus on how we live today, and has little to do with speculating about the timing of future prophetic events. After all, we will be judged today by what we do today. So it is what we do today that matters, instead of focusing on when we might be judged. If we do right, we won't be judged along with the world's judgments.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Either you are one of the deepest thinkers I think I have ever encountered, or you're making some of these things more complicated than they need to be. I haven't made up my mind which. But of course I don't know if these things are solely your own reasoning of things, or if you perhaps have had help along the way, such as through various books you may have read, various commentaries you may have read, etc. Speaking for myself, my conclusions, whatever they might be, meaning in general, are a result of my own reasoning through what I'm reading in the Scriptures myself.
    Like most of us here I've been absolutely fascinated with prophecy in my Christian life. To the degree I focus on my individuality I seem to get sidetracked. I wish to contribute to the group, to make friends. This is our destiny as a family. Thanks for your personal comments. I always like that. It makes things more real for me.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I would take issue with your statement that Jesus revealed himself to the men of that generation, UNLESS,

    There are documents stating something on the order of what is found in the book of Ezekiel, "ye shall know that I am the Lord", or maybe something like, "you shall know that i have sent this judgment on you". I am not talking about believing that from a historical point of view. Just believing that God sent that judgment, does not make it so. You need to produce something written from that days perspective. Did the Jews of that day believe, when it happened, that God did that? If not, you have a pointless question.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    Absolutely! I do compare, and have been comparing, Ezekiel, the "Son of Man," with Jesus, the "Son of Man." There is such a parallel between Ezekiel and Jesus! Both predicted the imminent fall of Jerusalem. And yes, Ezekiel indicated on a number of occasions that the approaching judgment of Jerusalem would cause Israel to "know that I am the Lord." Earlier I punched those words into my Bible Search, and there were a good number of references.

    So yes, I believe that the "day of the revelation of Christ" is an historical example of God's judgment coming upon Israel in the language of Christ's eschatological Coming. After all, Jesus' disciples wanted him to compare the approaching fall of the temple with his 2nd Coming. And here, he says that the fall of Jerusalem will be like the 2nd Coming, a judgment like lightning, and something that could not be avoided except by proper living and by believing in him.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sounds like we're looking at the same things? Anyway, thanks for asking. I've been doing a more extensive review of the Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. I've designated common areas of the Discourse as 7 distinct subjects:
    1) Birth Pains
    2) Gospel Ministry
    3) The AoD
    4) The 2nd Coming
    5) The timing of the temple's destruction
    6) The timing of the 2nd Coming
    7) Keeping Vigilant

    I've compared all 3 versions under each category. Luke 17 only applies to 3 of these categories, 3, 4, and 6. So as I've been saying, this retains the same order as Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It just appears that Luke 17 is extracted from the account of the Discourse in Luke 21 for special discussion in a lead up to that Discourse.

    And as I said, this is plainly an effort to project eschatology as something to be taken seriously *in the present.* My guess here is that this was Jesus' whole point in comparing the prediction of the temple's demise with the 2nd Coming. The 2nd Coming will take care of itself. It is in the present that Christ will reveal himself in current activities, including in the judgment of 70 AD.

    I did find in the early chapters of Ezekiel the common phrase, "and you shall know that I am the Lord," in connection with the coming Babylonian Judgment. And I've discovered that Ezekiel's prophecies of the imminent judgment of Jerusalem by Babylon is eerily similar to Jesus' prediction of the imminent fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    So I do feel that the revelation of the Son of Man has much to do with focusing Jesus' disciples on contemporary acts of divine judgment, and seeing that as a preliminary type of Christ's 2nd Coming. I really hate to say this, because I've long distanced myself from Preterism. And I still don't see myself as a Preterist.

    But Glory brought up some interesting points about Luke 17 a while back--very good points. And I had to resolve them somehow. I found all of the synoptic gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse harmonious, with the exception of my singular difficulty with this one verse, in which the day of the Lord's revelation will take place, and the Jews will be fleeing, etc.

    I do see much of the imagery used for Christ's Coming applicable to the then-current generation, in particular as it applied to the 70 AD judgment. Jews came down from their housetops in 66 AD, when Cestius Gallus approached and stood at the gates of Jerusalem. He was the "abomination standing in the holy place." And he withdrew before conquering Jerusalem.

    This was the sign that Christians were to flee. This judgment was for unbelieving Jews, and not for Christians. And flee they did, going to Pella. This is a matter of historical record. They literally came down from their housetops, pregnant women and young mothers, and made their way to the wilderness, where they were prepared to endure hardships, rather than die like Lot's wife in the battle over Jerusalem.

    Eventually Jerusalem did fall in 70 AD before the forces of Titus. He proved that the Roman Army was the abomination that caused *desolation.* He desolated much of Jerusalem, as well as the entire temple. The work was completed on Jerusalem later in 135 AD.

    I do believe that Jesus wanted his disciples to focus on their present time and on their present ministries, just as we should. There's nothing wrong with looking to the future, and trying to anticipate things. But our spiritual life is "here and now," watching how God is leading us in the present. If we stay focused on Christ now, we will always be ready. It has nothing to do with expecting Christ's return at any minute! It has everything to do with being a good steward of our gifts, which God has given us.

    So I believe the AoD is the 66-70 AD event, and the day of Christ's revelation was the judgment of Christ in that context. But the eschatological Coming of Christ, similarly, has its focus on how we live today, and has little to do with speculating about the timing of future prophetic events. After all, we will be judged today by what we do today. So it is what we do today that matters, instead of focusing on when we might be judged. If we do right, we won't be judged along with the world's judgments.
    I see that you didn't direct your response to my question back to me, but you did give a response. But i am not sure that you fully grasped what i was asking. The question is not whether the Christians grasped that it was fun God's judgment on the Jews. Did the Jews grasp that they were being judged for their behavior. I am glad that you did see that some, and i emphasize some, Jews did see God's hand in the Babylonian attack on Jerusalem. God doesn't just send judgment on people for the sake of judgment, unless it is a judgment like was poured upon Sodom. Upon everyone. But even there, Lot escaped to tell others what and why God destroyed Sodom. So, I am not asking you whether you believed, or if the Christians of the day believed (they were not the ones being judged, the Jews were) that it was good judgment on Jerusalem, or even the Jews, but did the Jews recognize it as such? I understand what you are asking in terms of "his revealing", did the Jews of the day, get a revelation of God? This could be demonstrated twoways. Did Jews, the rebels, recognize it at the time and, and tell it as such, God's judgment on them, OR it could be identifiable if they, the rebellious ones, repented TO JESUS. I.e., that had a revelatory knowledge of Jesus.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I see that you didn't direct your response to my question back to me, but you did give a response. But i am not sure that you fully grasped what i was asking. The question is not whether the Christians grasped that it was fun God's judgment on the Jews. Did the Jews grasp that they were being judged for their behavior. I am glad that you did see that some, and i emphasize some, Jews did see God's hand in the Babylonian attack on Jerusalem. God doesn't just send judgment on people for the sake of judgment, unless it is a judgment like was poured upon Sodom. Upon everyone. But even there, Lot escaped to tell others what and why God destroyed Sodom. So, I am not asking you whether you believed, or if the Christians of the day believed (they were not the ones being judged, the Jews were) that it was good judgment on Jerusalem, or even the Jews, but did the Jews recognize it as such? I understand what you are asking in terms of "his revealing", did the Jews of the day, get a revelation of God? This could be demonstrated twoways. Did Jews, the rebels, recognize it at the time and, and tell it as such, God's judgment on them, OR it could be identifiable if they, the rebellious ones, repented TO JESUS. I.e., that had a revelatory knowledge of Jesus.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    Yes, I was somewhat aware I was not answering your question in full. I was partly side-tracked, but I am returning now to your main point. My main concern earlier is that you understood how I viewed it as *essential* to view it the way I did. All of the parallel versions of the same discourse line up with my historical emphasis. The missing piece was Luke 17.30, but it would have to be interpreted in sort of a Preterist-type way.

    I'm quick to say that this "day of Christ's revelation" is not the same as Christ's eschatological Coming! However, Jesus did appear to want to apply eschatological language of the 2nd Advent to the events of his own generation.

    That being said, let me answer your question. When the prophet says, "and you shall know that I am the Lord," he is not saying the judged are going to experience evangelical conversion, or some kind of spiritual awakening. On the contrary, these are the people being judged who are being forced to face their accuser. They are being forced to face the one they have abused and committed trespasses against.

    So I think what you're doing is viewing this as an eye-opening event for Israel, as if they say, "Oh, I get it. I got it wrong. Jerusalem is destroyed. The temple is thrown down. I'm bad. Now, I see that it was you, Lord, and I want to repent."

    That was not what the phrase means. It certainly does mean that in other occasions in prophecy. For example, the same phrase is used in connection with great deliverances, such as Exodus. That's when Israel realized God was with them, and that "the Lord did it." I trust that will answer your specific question?

  10. #10

    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

    In Luke 17 we have several portions of the Olivet Discourse extracted and presented, in its natural order, before the more formal presentation of that Discourse in Luke 21. The emphasis is on the *presence of the Kingdom,* as opposed to a kind of excessive futurism, in which eschatological events are relegated to the distant future without adequate representation in the present.

    Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Jesus was saying that there is a necessary *present application* of his Kingdom that must focus on the fact that Jesus' Coming will be in judgment, like lightning. This will be preceded by the sins that precipitate this Coming, consisting of causing Jesus to suffer and be rejected by his people, the Jews.

    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?

    I don't actually think the "revelation of the Son of Man" has as much to do with his actual coming as with its *present application* of his coming. It would be *any day in which Christ reveals himself to Israel through judgment.*

    It isn't as though the literal 2nd Coming will not occur. It will. It is just that the present application of that event is any day in which Christ reveals himself to men in the form of comprehensive national judgment.

    Do we have precedent for that in the Scriptures? Of course. In a number of places the Scriptures describe a divine judgment in which Israel would come to know God. "In that day you will know that I am God." It had to do with a divine judgment. And this took place in 70 AD.
    The revelation of the Son of man isn't the same as the coming (appearing) of the Son of man. Revelation precedes the coming of the Son of man.

    Judgment of works, both of the Church and others, is just one of many things that takes place during the revelation.

    In addition to judgment, the name, glory, power (grace) and love of the Son of man are revealed. The revelation comes to different folks at different times and is predicted upon entrance into the kingdom of God.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  11. #11

    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Here's some thoughts that I just typed up after seeing the title of this thread in the list of topics. I typed this up before reading your OP though. So what I typed up has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with anything in the OP, at least as of now.

    Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    Let's assume we take it to mean the 2nd coming. How then does one explain verses 31-33? Yet at the same time, verses 34-36 make sense if meaning the 2nd coming. It can't be both though. In this case verses 31-33 would have to trump, meaning verses 34-36 need to be interpreted with verses 31-33 in mind. So even though it might seem like verses 34-36 fit the 2nd coming, verses 31-33 prove that it doesn't.

    What's interesting about this is verse 31.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


    If we compare that to the following....

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
    16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    It appears the timing in Luke 17:30-37 is during the AOD.

    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house

    Wouldn't Jesus be rather confusing if He is not even talking about the same events in both passages? And let's assume I'm correct here, who would apply Luke 17:30-37 to the first century leading up to 70 AD, and why? But that's what they would be applying it to though if that same one is applying Mark 13:14-16 to the first century leading up to 70 AD, assuming Luke 17:30-37 are referring to these same events.
    Good post!

    During the revelation of the Son of man, the AoD will stand in holy place and will be judged. Mark 13: 14-17 give warnings, telling saints what to do and not do when they notice AoD standing in holy places.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    It is wrong to connect verse 20 & 21 to verse 22 onwards in the way that has been done. There is a definite connection but when you grasp that verse 22 onwards was NOT said at that time but more than a week later, it means there is something else going on. Luke is making a comparative of what the Pharisees are missing - the KoG in their midst ie Jesus - and what the disciples recognise but will miss. For Jesus will leave them. So Jesus then tells the disciples a sign which will be when Jesus will be revealed to the Jews.
    The Day when Jesus will be revealed should be a day of joy, but Jesus shows it will be a day of disaster.
    So this is clearly future, just like Matt 24.
    So the Day of the AoD will be the Day that those in Jerusalem glorify God.
    For me this connects to Zech 14 when We have Jesus on the Mount of Olives splitting the Mount in two. It is the Day of the earthquake and the way to flee.
    So we find it mentioned in Rev 11 when the 2W are raised from the dead.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

    In Luke 17 we have several portions of the Olivet Discourse extracted and presented, in its natural order, before the more formal presentation of that Discourse in Luke 21. The emphasis is on the *presence of the Kingdom,* as opposed to a kind of excessive futurism, in which eschatological events are relegated to the distant future without adequate representation in the present.

    Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Jesus was saying that there is a necessary *present application* of his Kingdom that must focus on the fact that Jesus' Coming will be in judgment, like lightning. This will be preceded by the sins that precipitate this Coming, consisting of causing Jesus to suffer and be rejected by his people, the Jews.

    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?

    I don't actually think the "revelation of the Son of Man" has as much to do with his actual coming as with its *present application* of his coming. It would be *any day in which Christ reveals himself to Israel through judgment.*

    It isn't as though the literal 2nd Coming will not occur. It will. It is just that the present application of that event is any day in which Christ reveals himself to men in the form of comprehensive national judgment.

    Do we have precedent for that in the Scriptures? Of course. In a number of places the Scriptures describe a divine judgment in which Israel would come to know God. "In that day you will know that I am God." It had to do with a divine judgment. And this took place in 70 AD.
    To your understanding of Luke 17.

    The Kingdom of God is relatively simple. Any kingdom is where there is a certain king exercising his kingship. Our Lord Jesus, when present on earth, was not only King of the Jews, but as Creator and Owner of the universes, King of all the earth. This He shows in His own words in Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20 which say; "28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you", and "20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." So also Luke 17:20-21. The Lord and King, standing in their midst and exercising His Father's authority and untouchable by His enemies, demonstrates the presence of the Kingdom of God. And did those Pharisees "look" for the Kingdom? NO! It was suddenly in their midst. It did not come because they were looking for it. All they had to do was check the tax records and Jesus' lineage and place of birth would have been there for all to see. The Jews too have a place in the matter. They must, like they did with David, agree to the Lord's Person, Lineage and authenticity. But they were not "observing". They were looking for a rampant King to deal with Rome, not a Servant King dealing with demons. The next verse of Luke 17 show that far from making Jesus King, they plot to cause suffering and death.

    But it is crucial to note that from verse 22 He ONLY addresses His disciples. Why? Because ONLY the disciples would long to see the Son of Man. The rest of Israel and the world at large say "away with Him!". They elect Caesar to be their king (Jn.19:15). And so the Lord departs from Israel and takes the Kingdom with Him, leaving His disciples to yearn for the days when our Lord walked the earth. But then our Lord promises to return, but in a spectacular way - from the sky and like flashing lightening. The Jews, having bowed to "Caesars" of other nations for 2,000 years, still look for a man from Bethlehem. For them, the prophecies of the coming of their Messiah are not fulfilled, so they are susceptible to false Christ's who come from all directions BUT THE SKY! So verse 24 predicts His Second Coming too to be "without observation". It does not mean that one cannot see lightning. It means that the Jews would not be looking for it. They would not be observing or "watching". To summarize:
    1. The Kingdom is always present when the King is there exercising His authority - and gone when He is gone
    2. The Kingdom of God will come unexpectedly from the sky at a future date

    As to the rest of your posting you build it on the premise that the "beginning of sorrows" of the Jews began in 70 AD. Let us do the Mathematics. Around 700 BC, ten/twelfths or 83% of Israel was carried off after undergoing torrid times. Since that time they, if the Bible is true, SUFFER SORROWS. Then, just over a hundred years later the remainder of Israel, the tow southern Tribes are carried off after an extreme siege. Leviticus 26:28-39 promises Israel,

    verse 28 - God will walk contrary unto them also in fury and will chastise you seven times for your sins.
    verse 29 - experience such famine that they, "... shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters ... ."
    verse 30 - God will "cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and His soul shall abhor you.
    verse 31 - God will "... make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, ... ."
    verse 33 - God "... will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, ... ."
    verse 36 - God will, "... upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; ... ."
    verse 36 - God will send, "... and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
    verse 37 - God will cause, "...them to fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
    verse 38 - "And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."
    verse 39 - "And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them."

    This happened to ALL Israel in their two destructions and deportations long before Christ came - and continues to this day. And yet you lay down 70 AD, where only fraction of Israel suffered a minor battle in historical comparison for ONE CITY (and Massada if you like), as the "beginning of sorrows". But scripture is definite concerning this looming "sorrow". Daniel 12:1, speaking of "Daniel's people" - the Jews, says;

    "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

    The time of Sorrow for Daniel's People is:
    1. At the time of ALL Israel's DELIVERANCE. 70 AD is the time of a minute percentage of all Israel's "two days" of CHASTISEMENT (Hos.6:2)
    2. It is a time of trouble such as not seen since there was a nation on earth. That means since Babylon where the tongues were confused and men gravitated to nations. But Matthew 24:21 spans a greater time. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

    Is the local battle of 70 AD greater than Noah's flood? Can any serious historian, or expositor for that matter, say that the local battle of Jerusalem in 70 AD SURPASSES all the horrors that the world has seen INCLUDING the wiping out of the world's population over 40 days? Can he say that the local and small battle for Jerusalem in 70 AD surpasses the horrors that men have faced universally in history - e.g. the 50 million killed in the Chinese Communist revolution? Can any expositor say that this small battle began a process that is Trouble beyond that ever seen by men including Noah's flood?

    Is not the Great Trouble that men face revealed in the Book of Revelation? The Book of Revelation is written in about 95 AD - 25 years AFTER 70 AD. And the inspired record begins with THINGS FUTURE TO 95 AD (Rev.1:1). Further, the last FOUR Churches of Revelation 2 to 3 predict the Lord's coming, AND CHAPTER 4 STARTS WITH "AFTER THIS"! Is not the Great Trouble described in the rest of the Book of Revelation AFTER the Lord has come for His Churches (or at least the Overcomers)?

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When is the "Son of Man revealed" in the following verse?:

    Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."
    Here is how I see it.

    Luke 17:
    20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

    At first glance, verse 20 seems to contradict other passages which speak favorably about signs and their benefits. For instance, consider the following passages.

    John 2:23
    Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing.

    John 3:2
    this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

    And this from Paul,

    2 Corinthians 12:12
    The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

    The signs were beneficial and both Jesus and the Apostles spoke favorably of the signs. So what gives? What does Jesus mean? The apparent contradiction is resolved if we realize what Jesus was actually saying. He did not say that signs wouldn't be given or that signs wouldn't accompany the coming of the kingdom. Rather, the Pharisees held a mistaken interpretation of what the signs were to indicate. They understood that the signs would indicate the impending kingdom. The signs indicate that kingdom was about to happen. Whereas, Jesus wants the Pharisees and us through them, to understand that the signs actually indicate that the kingdom of God was already at hand.

    The kingdom of God was at hand, which meant that all Israel needed to do is reach out her hand and take it. But she didn't understand and couldn't see it. Why? Because in order to see the kingdom of God one needs to be born from above, as Jesus told Nicodemus. Only those whom God has given eyes to see can recognize the true meaning of the signs that Jesus already gave his people.

    When the kingdom of God is present, people won't be saying, "look here" or "look there" because the kingdom of God isn't a place or a space; the kingdom of God is a people and a state of being. That is, the kingdom of God is at hand because the king is on earth, performing the signs of the king:

    Luke 11:2-6
    2 Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

    These miracles and acts of goodness and kindness are not signs of the impending coming of the kingdom; they are signs that the kingdom was already at hand, i.e within arms reach. The king was present and ready to take his role as king. But before that, he said, he must suffer and die for the people.

    I will continue in my next post.

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    Re: Luke 17.30--when?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe that the Abomination of Desolation and most of Jesus' Discourse focused on the then-present generation. The "beginning of sorrows" started with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, and led to an age-long period of "distress" for the Jews.

    But here in Luke Jesus is seen to focus on the present, and uses the language of the AoD event, the siege of Jerusalem, as a backdrop for his 2nd Coming. How then can Jesus show that his "day of revelation" took place in his own generation?
    While the Great Tribulation began with the Jewish wars, it continued throughout Jewish history down to this day and included not only the Jewish people but all those who follow Jesus. All those who represent God to the world are subject to the tribulation, trials and troubles which the world can wage against us.

    Toward the end of the Great Tribulation, perhaps 20 minutes from now, certain events will be set into motion that will lead up to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Hebrew scriptures reveal that the run-up to the day of the Lord, will be marked by days of destruction, doom, darkness and burning. And much can be said about the situations and circumstances that accompany this time. But suffice to say, for now, that God will bring on Israel a time of decision, in order to raise an existential question. This existential question is best summarized in Malachi 4.

    Malachi 4:1-3
    “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

    This passage describes a single event, which has two different outcomes depending on how one is oriented with respect to God. There are two groups: 1) the arrogant and evil doer, and 2) you who fear my name. The arrogant and evil doer will literally be burned up with fire and their remains will become ashes. But for those who fear his name, the same sun that rises will bring healing.

    Jesus says that these days will be like the days of Noah. How so? During the days of Noah, he preached righteousness to the people and warned them of the impending doom on the world. But the warnings were ignored and the people continued life as normal, "eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark." Warnings were given, but the warnings were ignored.

    Jesus also says that these days will be like the day that Lot went out of Sodom. How so? The day that Lot went out of Sodom, Lot and his wife and his two daughters had to be dragged by the hand and led out of the city in haste unless they get caught in the destruction themselves. And Lot's wife is a cautionary tale for those who might hesitate, look back, and yearn for what was lost.

    Destruction, doom, darkness and burning are coming to the land of Israel. And that day will be a day of decision; the evil will perish, while those who fear the name of Yahweh will be healed. And Jesus seems to predict that the survivors will be taken somewhere, just as Lot and his family were taken somewhere to be safe. "Where Lord?," the disciples ask. Where will they be taken?

    Jesus gives a cryptic response. "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." What does this mean?

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