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Thread: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

  1. #451
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    The OP is correct: Israel is all true believers.
    The Jewish people have no right to the name of Israel.

    The Jews are of many racial origins:
    1. THE ASHKENAZIM JEWS
    Some claim a link between Edom and the Khazars, but apart from that there is more than one
    identity calling themselves “Jews”; none of these have claim to the name ‘Israel’.. Regarding
    the Ashkenazim Jews who speak Yiddish, most dictionaries and encyclopedias define
    Ashkenazim: after ‘Ashkenaz’, the second son of Gomer. This confirms
    Scripture concerning the sons of Noah, [Shem, Japheth and Ham], and their offspring:
    2. THE KHAZAR JEWS
    The Khazars claimed descent from Japheth, and from their adoption of Judaism, they became
    known as Jews. But they did not descend from Shem, and therefore they are not Semitic in
    origin. To relate the term “anti-Semitism” to Jews of this origin is nonsense and part of the
    great deception! Eastern European Jews of this origin have no Israelite connection. Anti-
    Semitism could not apply to them! These are the majority in the Israeli state.
    3. THE SEPHARDIM JEWS
    The American People’s Encyclopedia, 1925, indicates that these people descended from
    Edomites who were cast out of Palestine by Prince Titus in AD 70. From thence they spread
    to North Africa and to Spain converting Berber Tribes and others to Judaism. There were
    Cardinals and Popes who were Sephardim Jews. They have no simple blood line, being
    Edomites diluted with Syrian, Canaanite, Phoenician and North African blood.
    4. THE SEPHARDIM / ASHKENAZIM JEWISH MIXTURE
    It is impossible to determine the degree of intermarriage between these two groups of non-
    Israelites, but there is evidence that this has been common.
    5. THE ETHIOPIAN DESCENDANTS OF HAM [The Falashas]
    These are known as “Jews” because of acceptance of Judaism. The Encyclopedia Judaica
    states:
    The joke here is that Ham, as a son of Noah, was not a black man. It is amazing that these
    people, who are supposed to be the educated and erudite, could make such a stupid statement.
    6. BABYLONIAN and PROSELYTE JEWS
    In the days of Mordecai and Esther - many who obviously were not of Judah took up Judaism
    These are people from almost every race on earth. They became known as Jews because of religious spirit and belief in Judaism.
    8. THE SHEMITE DESCENDANTS OF ESAU
    These people also known as Edomites and some other names in Scripture. Historically, and
    Biblically, most of these were made proselytes to Judaism and became known as “Jews”.

    Anyone who wants to identify the Jews as “Israel” is not speaking about the true Israel of
    God, as defined in the Bible. If we have another Israel, we have another gospel. But the
    same people will insist that Jews of much racial mixture are a single race when they are not.
    They want it both ways.
    The term Ioudaios [Judean] is wrongly accepted as the “racial” term Ioudas [Jew] when
    reading the New Testament and is the root of the misunderstanding. The use of the territorial
    term, Judean, is not a measure of race, although some Israelites were amongst the proselytes
    to Judaism in Judea.
    The word, “Jews”, cannot always be taken in the way that is commonly accepted. Modern
    international Jewry is primarily of Edomic or Japheth/Ashkenazim or Sephardim origin, and
    the Jewish Encyclopedia states that Edom is modern Jewry. Edomites are not Israelites; it
    was Esau who sold his birthright. The descendants of Japheth cannot be ethnic Israelites. Neither
    are “Jews” of other races Israelites by race.
    Modern Jewry relates to Edom, Zionism, World Government and the Israeli state, but not to
    Biblical Israel. At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their
    Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18; Rev 18:6-8

    But there is a final twist declared in Encyclopedia Judaica 1971, 10, column 23:
    “JEWS BEGAN IN THE 19TH CENTURY TO CALL THEMSELVES HEBREWS AND ISRAELITES IN 1860.
    This coincides with the cry, “anti-Semitism”.. If Zionists began so late in history to pretend
    that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the Israel of God. Ref: A.E.Kennedy

  2. #452
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Jewish people have no right to the name of Israel.
    That is not for you, me, or anyone else to decide. That is for God to decide.

    Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


    Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
    24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
    25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
    26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
    27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
    28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

    The NT church can't be meant here. Plus, as far as I can tell these prophecies above have yet to be fulfilled in their entirety.

  3. #453
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I provide scriptural proofs of a new nation in all of the holy Land, a nation of God's holy people, being the people that God always wanted in His Land, but has never yet had.

    I point out the future and you go on about the present. You, Randyk, can't see beyond the world as it is today, but we live in a blip of time, in which we Western Christians have it good with no real hardships in life. This wasn't the case less than a lifetime ago and it won't be the case again in the near future, as God arises to take action to correct a world; once again as in the days of Noah.

    As for the Millennium, the other nations will have to comply with the rule of Jesus and if they don't He will punish them. Zechariah 14:16-19 Only at the end of the Mill, will Satan be released to again deceive the nations. Rev 20:7-10
    Who is it that's 'dancing' around the prophesies, but failing to comprehend them?
    Okay, strike the comment about you "dancing around" anything--that wasn't intended as an insult. My point is that mortal nations have had a purpose not just in the present but all through history and on into the Millennial future. To speak of an ideal Millennial situation in the Middle East with all Christians becoming "Israel" seems strangely out of place in our current world. So no, my perspective does not include that future state of being, which is purely the product of your speculations.

    What matters to me here and now is the reality originating from the time of Abraham, when God promised him *godly nations.* He was never promised *perfect nations,* since it is obvious that Israel was never perfectly godly.

    So my thought is that God was interested in producing *Christian nations,* and not just Christian individuals from all nations. A Christian government is essential in the matters of social justice, law, and religious freedom, as I indicated. To think government played no role in the planning of God is absurd, in my view.

    Clearly, God established a *theocracy* from the start. I know "theocracy" is today a dirty word. But that, nevertheless, is what God established. "You shall have no other gods." That was good not just for individuals but for the government leaders presiding over the state.

  4. #454
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    That is not for you, me, or anyone else to decide. That is for God to decide.


    The NT church can't be meant here. Plus, as far as I can tell these prophecies above have yet to be fulfilled in their entirety.
    Right, it isn't the established Church that is meant, that is a very confused and often ungodly organization[s]!

    My People Israel: are all the people who believe in God and who are born again Jesus Christ followers. God does know who they are; He sees into the heart and deems them to be His Overcomers, the Victorious ones over this Satan ruled world. Literally - His true Israelites.

  5. #455
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Okay, strike the comment about you "dancing around" anything--that wasn't intended as an insult. My point is that mortal nations have had a purpose not just in the present but all through history and on into the Millennial future. To speak of an ideal Millennial situation in the Middle East with all Christians becoming "Israel" seems strangely out of place in our current world. So no, my perspective does not include that future state of being, which is purely the product of your speculations.

    What matters to me here and now is the reality originating from the time of Abraham, when God promised him *godly nations.* He was never promised *perfect nations,* since it is obvious that Israel was never perfectly godly.

    So my thought is that God was interested in producing *Christian nations,* and not just Christian individuals from all nations. A Christian government is essential in the matters of social justice, law, and religious freedom, as I indicated. To think government played no role in the planning of God is absurd, in my view.

    Clearly, God established a *theocracy* from the start. I know "theocracy" is today a dirty word. But that, nevertheless, is what God established. "You shall have no other gods." That was good not just for individuals but for the government leaders presiding over the state.
    I didn't see any insult and I want you to know that I appreciate your input, as a serious thinking person.

    Isaiah 62:1-5 and other prophesies tell us that Abraham WILL have a faithful nation living in al of that area promised to him by God. Genesis 15:18
    I know this seems impossible now but it isn't impossible for God. Isaiah 49:1-13
    He will gather everyone who bears His Name, all who He has made for His glory. Isaiah 43:7-12 .....they have ears but cannot hear, have eyes, but cannot see.......You, My people are My witnesses, chosen by Me to know Me and you put your trust in Me.
    Todays Christians exactly!

  6. #456
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I didn't see any insult and I want you to know that I appreciate your input, as a serious thinking person.

    Isaiah 62:1-5 and other prophesies tell us that Abraham WILL have a faithful nation living in al of that area promised to him by God. Genesis 15:18
    I know this seems impossible now but it isn't impossible for God. Isaiah 49:1-13
    He will gather everyone who bears His Name, all who He has made for His glory. Isaiah 43:7-12 .....they have ears but cannot hear, have eyes, but cannot see.......You, My people are My witnesses, chosen by Me to know Me and you put your trust in Me.
    Todays Christians exactly!
    Keraz, I like and respect your devotion to the word of God, as well. Whether we agree on all things or not, a serious person devoted to the word of God is always going to include elements of ministry that will help us all. We may get tangled up on the smaller details. But the big picture is that ministry of the Spirit will take place.

  7. #457
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Isaiah 8:17-18 I shall wait eagerly for the Lord, who is hiding His face from Israel, I shall put my trust in Him. Here we are: all children of our Lord – we are the signs and symbols of Israel, the Lords true, righteous people, You [will] dwell on Mt Zion.
    Hosea 4:12, Jeremiah 29:8-9, Isaiah 66:17

    Isaiah 33:13-16 You dwellers afar off, hear what I have done, acknowledge My might, you that are near at hand. The godless sinners in Zion will quake with terror, with trembling they ask: Can any of us live with a devouring fire, in perpetual flames?
    The people who behave uprightly and speak the truth, who scorn to enrich themselves by extortion or bribery. Those who keep their ears and eyes from evil, it is these people who will dwell in safety, with their food assured and water never failing them. No one living there will say; I am sick and the sins of the people who live in the Land will be pardoned. Isaiah 44:22, Psalms 103:1-5, Ezekiel 37:20-27 Reference: REB some verses abridged

    Godless sinners in Zion; No prizes to guess who they are!

    you dwellers afar off: Our situation now; Christians scattered around the world. 1 Peter 1:1

    Here we are: all children of the Lord; Romans 9:24-26. True Christian believers are now the Israelites of God, those from every tribe, race, nation and language are the Lords holy people. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-8, Revelation 5:9-10

    It is these people who will dwell in safety and prosperity: Soon after the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, that will clear and cleanse all the holy Land, the call will go out to all the people who stood firm in their faith, Zechariah 10:8-12, to gather and live there, Hosea 2:14-23, Jeremiah 31:8-9, as God always intended His Israelite, now: the Christian peoples to be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

  8. #458
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The OP is correct: Israel is all true believers.
    The Jewish people have no right to the name of Israel.

    The Jews are of many racial origins:
    1. THE ASHKENAZIM JEWS
    Some claim a link between Edom and the Khazars, but apart from that there is more than one
    identity calling themselves “Jews”; none of these have claim to the name ‘Israel’.. Regarding
    the Ashkenazim Jews who speak Yiddish, most dictionaries and encyclopedias define
    Ashkenazim: after ‘Ashkenaz’, the second son of Gomer. This confirms
    Scripture concerning the sons of Noah, [Shem, Japheth and Ham], and their offspring:
    2. THE KHAZAR JEWS
    The Khazars claimed descent from Japheth, and from their adoption of Judaism, they became
    known as Jews. But they did not descend from Shem, and therefore they are not Semitic in
    origin. To relate the term “anti-Semitism” to Jews of this origin is nonsense and part of the
    great deception! Eastern European Jews of this origin have no Israelite connection. Anti-
    Semitism could not apply to them! These are the majority in the Israeli state.
    3. THE SEPHARDIM JEWS
    The American People’s Encyclopedia, 1925, indicates that these people descended from
    Edomites who were cast out of Palestine by Prince Titus in AD 70. From thence they spread
    to North Africa and to Spain converting Berber Tribes and others to Judaism. There were
    Cardinals and Popes who were Sephardim Jews. They have no simple blood line, being
    Edomites diluted with Syrian, Canaanite, Phoenician and North African blood.
    4. THE SEPHARDIM / ASHKENAZIM JEWISH MIXTURE
    It is impossible to determine the degree of intermarriage between these two groups of non-
    Israelites, but there is evidence that this has been common.
    5. THE ETHIOPIAN DESCENDANTS OF HAM [The Falashas]
    These are known as “Jews” because of acceptance of Judaism. The Encyclopedia Judaica
    states:
    The joke here is that Ham, as a son of Noah, was not a black man. It is amazing that these
    people, who are supposed to be the educated and erudite, could make such a stupid statement.
    6. BABYLONIAN and PROSELYTE JEWS
    In the days of Mordecai and Esther - many who obviously were not of Judah took up Judaism
    These are people from almost every race on earth. They became known as Jews because of religious spirit and belief in Judaism.
    8. THE SHEMITE DESCENDANTS OF ESAU
    These people also known as Edomites and some other names in Scripture. Historically, and
    Biblically, most of these were made proselytes to Judaism and became known as “Jews”.

    Anyone who wants to identify the Jews as “Israel” is not speaking about the true Israel of
    God, as defined in the Bible. If we have another Israel, we have another gospel. But the
    same people will insist that Jews of much racial mixture are a single race when they are not.
    They want it both ways.
    The term Ioudaios [Judean] is wrongly accepted as the “racial” term Ioudas [Jew] when
    reading the New Testament and is the root of the misunderstanding. The use of the territorial
    term, Judean, is not a measure of race, although some Israelites were amongst the proselytes
    to Judaism in Judea.
    The word, “Jews”, cannot always be taken in the way that is commonly accepted. Modern
    international Jewry is primarily of Edomic or Japheth/Ashkenazim or Sephardim origin, and
    the Jewish Encyclopedia states that Edom is modern Jewry. Edomites are not Israelites; it
    was Esau who sold his birthright. The descendants of Japheth cannot be ethnic Israelites. Neither
    are “Jews” of other races Israelites by race.
    Modern Jewry relates to Edom, Zionism, World Government and the Israeli state, but not to
    Biblical Israel. At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their
    Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18; Rev 18:6-8

    But there is a final twist declared in Encyclopedia Judaica 1971, 10, column 23:
    “JEWS BEGAN IN THE 19TH CENTURY TO CALL THEMSELVES HEBREWS AND ISRAELITES IN 1860.
    This coincides with the cry, “anti-Semitism”.. If Zionists began so late in history to pretend
    that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the Israel of God. Ref: A.E.Kennedy
    I can echo what you've posted here Keraz. Good insight....
    The Rapture

    My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
    but I must confess, don’t worry
    the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
    it’s before God’s wrath!!!

    Because His wrath is not meant for you
    it’s for all the people in the zoo
    think about it and refresh…
    you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

    If you really believe, you will see
    the rapture is for you and me
    when we decide to leave from here
    that very day, oh! God adhere…



  9. #459
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    That is not for you, me, or anyone else to decide. That is for God to decide.

    Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


    Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
    24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
    25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
    26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
    27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
    28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

    The NT church can't be meant here. Plus, as far as I can tell these prophecies above have yet to be fulfilled in their entirety.
    So was it God that told that bunch of Zionists to call their new nation Israel? Those atheists, who set up a nation on communist principals?

    The prophecy in Ezekiel 39:23-28 refers to the House of Israel, an entity separate from the House of Judah, the Jewish people. So it does, in fact pertain to Christians , as we are now the Israelites of God, by faith and most of the Western Christians; by descent as well.

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