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Thread: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

  1. #331
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Are the children of believers (non-Jews) also born into the tree or are Gentiles only grafted in?
    All the faithful, born again Christians are grafted into the root and trunk of Jesus, John 15:1-6, by their faith. The Jews who reject Jesus have been lopped off, Romans 11:17 & 21, but it remains possible for them to be re-grafted on again. Romans 11:23
    That the majority of the Jewish people do not ever accept Jesus, is well prophesied. Isaiah 6:11-13, Jeremiah 25:30-38, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zechariah 13:1-9, +

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Abraham and his children have nothing to do with what Paul speaks of. The only faith there is the faith of Christ. There are natural born Jews, then a time comes when to remain on the tree a Jew must accept Christ. If not, the Jew is removed. Faithful to Christ Jews remain on the tree they were born into. Gentiles who have Christ will be grafted onto this same tree.

    The tree is Israel, what it is to be called a member or branch of Israel.
    You quoted Romans 9:6-8 which speaks of the children of promise.
    This is those of faith mention in Romans also. No it is NOT only faith in Christ, but faith in God.

  3. #333
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It was Paul who expanded the meaning of Israelite from an ethnic people to all the faithful believers. Romans 9:6-8
    You want to dispute that? Why?
    Yes, I take issue with that interpretation also and for good reason. Paul spent 8 chapters speaking about the Gospel and defending it against opposition, declaring among other things that Gentiles are granted justification apart from the law. At the end of chapter 8 he is done. He argued that salvation is not based on ethnicity, or race, but whether or not an individual has the proper inwardness.

    In chapter 9, his defense turns toward the question of promises God made to his own kinsmen. Beginning in chapter 9 and ending in chapter 11, his terminology changes. When speaking about salvation in the first eight chapters, he speaks about Jews and Gentiles. In chapter 9 he compares Jews with Gentiles to say that God calls individuals from both groups; in chapter 10 he compares Jews with Gentiles again to say that the Lord is Lord of all. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile because the Lord is abounding in riches for them both.

    In chapter 9, however, Paul deals with the issue of national identity. It is very clear to those with an objective eye that God has made promises to the nation of Israel that he has not made to any other nation. In Romans chapters 9 through 11, Paul will argue that nationality, by itself, is no guarantee of salvation. He begins, however, with an acknowledgment that indeed, God made promises to the nation of Israel that he didn't make to the other nations. One such promise is found in Jeremiah 31:34

    34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


    This is a unique promise to the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Specifically, the promise states that at a particular time in human history God will pour out his spirit on the Jewish people living in Israel such that evangelism will no longer be necessary. A man will not need to tell his neighbor "know the Lord". Why? Because "they will all know me," says the Lord. There won't be a time when a man is having dinner with his brother and his family saying, "know the Lord" because his brother and his family will already know the Lord. Everyone will know the Lord and by "know the Lord" it means "be in a covenant relationship with the Lord." The entire nation will be spirit filled, anointed, covenant keeping people.

    In light of this promise, Paul's opponents will argue: "Look Paul. If your gospel was true, and even if God were granting justification apart from the Law, God also promised that the entire nation of Israel would be spirit filled, anointed, covenant keeping people. And since we don't see that, then your gospel must be wrong.

    Romans 9:6
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel(1) who are descended from Israel(2);



    Here the term "Israel" has two different meanings:

    Israel(1) = the nation as it will exist when the promise is kept and fulfilled.
    Israel(2) = descendants of the patriarch Jacob.

    Paul's point: Not everyone in Israel(2) will be included in Israel(1).

    What Paul is NOT saying: Israel(1) will include people not found in Israel(2).

  4. #334
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    You make a good case, C & Z.
    But when you say Paul's point is about the 2 Israel's, past and present, you fail to acknowledge the proper meaning of Romans 9:6. Paul plainly says:...not all the offspring of Israel are truly Israel, neither does being Abrahams descendants make them his true children.....
    This clearly brings in another people; not of Israel at all, but children of the Promise, who is Jesus. Romans 9:8, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    The 'nation' that is chosen, Spirit filled, anointed, and Covenant keepers, are every faithful Christian individual. Matthew 21:43
    I know that this truth messes up your belief in the present Israel being on earth for all that will happen before Jesus Returns, while the church sits comfortably in heaven. Tough!

  5. #335
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You make a good case, C & Z.
    But when you say Paul's point is about the 2 Israel's, past and present, you fail to acknowledge the proper meaning of Romans 9:6. Paul plainly says:...not all the offspring of Israel are truly Israel, neither does being Abrahams descendants make them his true children.....
    This clearly brings in another people; not of Israel at all, but children of the Promise, who is Jesus. Romans 9:8, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    The 'nation' that is chosen, Spirit filled, anointed, and Covenant keepers, are every faithful Christian individual. Matthew 21:43
    I know that this truth messes up your belief in the present Israel being on earth for all that will happen before Jesus Returns, while the church sits comfortably in heaven. Tough!
    Romans was the first book I studied when I was learning the techniques of exegesis. Somewhere along the way I learned to hear Paul answer the question he sets out to answer. I learned to sort through the interpretations of others to see if these other interpretations take into account the question Paul is addressing. Beginning in chapter six, Paul begins to ask a series of rhetorical questions such as, "Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?" These rhetorical questions continue until chapter nine, where his discourse centers on Israel and here Paul is making a distinction between a "Jew" -- an individual person -- and Israel -- the people considered collectively.

    I noted that Paul didn't use the term "Israel" for the first eight chapters and he stopped using the term after chapter 11. Paul has already spent eight chapters explaining how and under what conditions an individual Jew can find deliverance from his or her sins and eternal life in the resurrection. And he argues that Gentiles have access to the same gift and under the same conditions. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, as he says in Galatians. For this reason, we know and understand that Paul set about to answer an entirely different question. Though he didn't state the question explicitly, the implied question is "Did the promise of God fail?"

    Now, in your view, "True Israel" is populated by all the spiritual descendants of Abraham including all genuine believers throughout the ages. If this were true, Paul letter to the Romans would not be missing any important idea if he had never penned chapters nine through eleven. He had already made his case for the idea that Abraham is the "father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised." In other words, all those of faith are united under Christ and in Christ there is no distinction. The picture of a church all united under Christ renders chapters nine through eleven unnecessary and superfluous. By chapter eight, Paul has argued this point and can easily move on to chapter twelve to talk about the practical applications of living according to the faith that Jesus preached.

    Remember, in Romans 9:6 the term Israel has two meanings:

    Israel(1) = the nation as it will exist when the promise is kept and fulfilled.
    Israel(2) = descendants of the patriarch Jacob.

    Every use of the term "Israel" in chapters nine through eleven after verse 9:6 denotes "Israel(2)" The only exception is found at the conclusion of chapter 11.

    25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel(2) until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel(1) will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”


    He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
    When does this take place? It is written in the prophet Malachi that at some point in Israel's history, Israel will be divided into two groups: 1) those who fear the Lord, and 2) the arrogant and evil doers. The arrogant and evil doers will be burned to ashes, while the sun will rise with healing in its wings for those who fear the Lord. Some of the prophets refer to these people as "the remnant" while Isaiah calls them "survivors". The remnant -- Israel(1) -- will be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. If Paul is right, then Israel(1) does not contain Gentiles, since they come in before the deliverer comes from Zion to remove ungodliness from Jacob.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    All the faithful, born again Christians are grafted into the root and trunk of Jesus, John 15:1-6, by their faith. The Jews who reject Jesus have been lopped off, Romans 11:17 & 21, but it remains possible for them to be re-grafted on again. Romans 11:23
    That the majority of the Jewish people do not ever accept Jesus, is well prophesied. Isaiah 6:11-13, Jeremiah 25:30-38, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zechariah 13:1-9, +
    If I understand you correctly the only way to be part of the tree is to be grafted into it? (Jew and Gentile)

    I believe one can be born into it because of the covenant. This is also why the warning that one can be chopped off because of unbelief is given. According to my understanding only believers of faith could be grafted into the tree and therefore cannot be chopped off because of the promise of Jesus to not loose any given to Him. The children of covenant believers born into the tree can be chopped off because of unbelief, but they are included in the covenant and part of the tree since birth until unbelief were found in them.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    If I understand you correctly the only way to be part of the tree is to be grafted into it? (Jew and Gentile)

    I believe one can be born into it because of the covenant. This is also why the warning that one can be chopped off because of unbelief is given. According to my understanding only believers of faith could be grafted into the tree and therefore cannot be chopped off because of the promise of Jesus to not loose any given to Him. The children of covenant believers born into the tree can be chopped off because of unbelief, but they are included in the covenant and part of the tree since birth until unbelief were found in them.
    Another believer in OSAS.
    Gentiles can't be born into it, only those of the Abrahamic Covenant.
    However John 15 as well as this passage itself tells us that branches which do not allow have fruit wither and are cast into the flame.
    Also as we read about those who are grafted in can also be cut off:
    Rom 11:17* But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,*
    Rom 11:18* do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.*
    Rom 11:19* Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”*
    Rom 11:20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.*
    Rom 11:21* For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

    OSAS is wrong, but that moves away from the thread which is I think already proven that the definition of Israel is NOT inclusive of Believers, though Believers may ALSO be of Israel.

  8. #338

    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I noted that Paul didn't use the term "Israel" for the first eight chapters and he stopped using the term after chapter 11. Paul has already spent eight chapters explaining how and under what conditions an individual Jew can find deliverance from his or her sins and eternal life in the resurrection. And he argues that Gentiles have access to the same gift and under the same conditions. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, as he says in Galatians. For this reason, we know and understand that Paul set about to answer an entirely different question. Though he didn't state the question explicitly, the implied question is "Did the promise of God fail?"
    ........

  9. #339
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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    We could go round in circles over the question; Who is Israel, forever, it seems!

    Firstly; there has always been foreigners who have joined Israel. The great prophecy in Isaiah 56:1-8, says how it will be for faithful non-ethnic Israelites in the end times. We know that God's people are those from every tribe, race, nation and language. Rev 5:9-10

    Then there is the hidden people of God, the House of Israel, taken into exile over 2700 years ago and lost to our knowledge. It is impossible that they are lost to God, Amos 9:9, He knows where His people are. And they surely have not rejoined with the House Of Judah; there roles are quite specific and different. Their eventual rejoining, as per Ezekiel 37, has obviously not happened yet as the Spiritual blessings have not happened.

    I have said it before and I say it again; it is because of beliefs in false theories and doctrines, that God places a veil of misunderstanding onto people, locking them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12 This difficulty is possible to overcome thru prayer and the clearing of the mind from mans teachings. I did it and if you don't, then what will happen will be a surprise [shock] to you.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    If I understand you correctly the only way to be part of the tree is to be grafted into it? (Jew and Gentile)
    He said, "The Jews who reject Jesus have been lopped off," which means they were born into the tree (proving the tree symbolizes Israel).
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He said, "The Jews who reject Jesus have been lopped off," which means they were born into the tree (proving the tree symbolizes Israel).
    No Jew born today are born into the tree (spiritually). Only those born of faith I believe.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Another believer in OSAS.
    Gentiles can't be born into it, only those of the Abrahamic Covenant.
    However John 15 as well as this passage itself tells us that branches which do not allow have fruit wither and are cast into the flame.
    Also as we read about those who are grafted in can also be cut off:
    Rom 11:17* But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,*
    Rom 11:18* do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.*
    Rom 11:19* Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”*
    Rom 11:20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.*
    Rom 11:21* For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

    OSAS is wrong, but that moves away from the thread which is I think already proven that the definition of Israel is NOT inclusive of Believers, though Believers may ALSO be of Israel.
    Yes not to be discussed to derail the thread, but NOSAS is wrong and unbiblical.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Yes not to be discussed to derail the thread, but NOSAS is wrong and unbiblical.
    Actually I posted the basis for what I believe about branches. This spells out the root is all important and it is those who REMAIN in Him that are saved.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Firstly, thanks for your post #318. You state the truth very well; Christians are the Israel of God.

    Re who are Israelites; how we must view this question, is how God sees them. Man twists meanings to suit himself, the word 'gay' is a prime example!
    Obviously, only true Israelites were and are; One who prevails with God, His Overcomers, His Victorious ones. Those who conform to the Way of Jesus: The Israelites of God.
    This definition is Biblically correct. Your last comment is unbecoming of you and unless you can come up with a better definition of Israelite, then a retraction is in order.
    Give me the passage(s) where believers are described as "Israelites, the One who prevails with God, His Overcomers, His Victorious ones" and I will retract.

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    Re: Definition of "Israel" as inclusive of believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    But he didn't call them the Israel of God. Did he? I don't think so. You are reading something into the passage that isn't there.
    Gal 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

    12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

    13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

    14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    How can you insist Paul was not referring to the church (start from v11 and read down) but ethnic Israel given the above?

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