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Thread: Did Israel possess their land?

  1. #121
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't mean to be rude, Fenris, but have you considered the possibility that your fellow Jews--the same who for centuries have sometimes gone astray--have elevated the Law to the level of a "golden calf?" Anything can be treated as a "God," and can be worshiped as though a sacred pagan image.
    So basically, what you're saying is, that because we love God, love Him so much that we're willing to follow His laws forever, as He told us to, even upon penalty of death, laws that countless Jews have been martyred for, why, we're actually being idol worshipers?

    Pardon me while I go off in the corner for a moment.


    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  2. #122
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    So basically, what you're saying is, that because we love God, love Him so much that we're willing to follow His laws forever, as He told us to, even upon penalty of death, laws that countless Jews have been martyred for, why, we're actually being idol worshipers?

    Pardon me while I go off in the corner for a moment.

    Indeed. Those who DO love God are NOT idol worshippers.

    Those though who CLAIM to love God and follow those Laws, BUT do NOT - they are the idol worshippers.

  3. #123
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Those though who CLAIM to love God and follow those Laws, BUT do NOT - they are the idol worshippers.
    And you know what's in their heart, that you can accuse them?

    Again, countless Jews have been martyred in God's name. Did they die for nothing? Were they idol worshipers?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #124

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    I agree with "Cyberseeker" on this issue in regards to land. Israel received all the land they were promised in the Old Covenant. They received all that God promised them. NOW, under the New Covenant, any promise God has for anyone can only be "In Christ." The Old Covenant(s) has been fulfilled and no one is going back to it again. It is finished.

  5. #125
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    So basically, what you're saying is, that because we love God, love Him so much that we're willing to follow His laws forever, as He told us to, even upon penalty of death, laws that countless Jews have been martyred for, why, we're actually being idol worshipers?

    Pardon me while I go off in the corner for a moment.


    Okay, I'm half German, and was raised Lutheran. Am I to say that all Lutheran Germans have only always wanted to do the right thing? I can't believe you're so "all in" with the totality of the Jewish People that you think every last one of them means well? Do you really deny all of the biblical stories where some of the Hebrew People committed despicable crimes--crimes so bad that God turned them over to pagan barbarians?

    Perhaps you misunderstand me? I'm not saying you, Fenris, are an idolater. Nor am I saying that all Jews are by virtue of being Jews idolaters. I'm just trying to get you to admit the Jewish People can be bad or good just like any other ethnic group.

    Unless we begin with this premise we cannot understand how Paul explained the progression of the Jewish People under the Law.

  6. #126
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And you know what's in their heart, that you can accuse them?
    Again, countless Jews have been martyred in God's name. Did they die for nothing? Were they idol worshipers?
    Where have I said that I know what is in their heart?
    I said, those who CLAIM one thing, but have something else in their heart, they are the idol worshippers.

    Why were the 10 tribes taken by Assyria into exile?
    Why was the temple destroyed by Babylonia?

    Where these people all following God with their hearts, or only with their mouths.
    I don't judge them, but it is clear God did, for the prophets stated this would happen, and it happened.

    Now Daniel also speaks of the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and this was a time of testing and trial.
    Some were proven to be of God and others not.
    So some will be resurrected to glory and others to eternal shame.

    Daniel also prophesies about 70 AD in Dan 9.
    Now some try to make out Dan 9 was also about A4E, but the wording / timing doesn't allow for that.

    I believe that God judged again and drove the Jews into exile UNTIL the time is right for them to return.
    Now is a time of God starting to restore, but that restoration still has some challenges, now and ahead.
    I believe there is yet to be the Day of Jacob's trouble. I read it as being basically a single day which will be like the worst days of the past, and in which there will be many more Jews who die.

    Were the Jews who died when Assyria invaded martyrs? I don't believe so, any more than I believe that those who died in Sodom and Gomorrah were martyrs.
    Were the Jews who died when Babylonia invaded martyrs? I don't believe so, any more than I believe the first born of Egypt were martyrs.
    Were the Jews who died when Rome destroyed Jerusalem martyrs? I don't believe so, any more than i believe the Canaanites were martyrs.

    There were "innocents" who died, we might argue, yet I believe that Abraham had it right with God, when Abraham asked, will you destroy the city if there are 10 righteous left? God's answer was no. I believe this is true WHENEVER God acts.
    This is different to when Man acts, yet there is the question of the Covenant, which I believe remains. the blessings are spelled out by God, and so is the punishment.

    So it is not my place to either judge nor to punish, but it is right to see that God keeps His Word and that He is the judge.

  7. #127
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Nor am I saying that all Jews are by virtue of being Jews idolaters.
    Actually, that's exactly what you said in post #120. That Jews, by holding fast to the law as God instructs us to do in the bible, are actually committing idolatry.

    I'm just trying to get you to admit the Jewish People can be bad or good just like any other ethnic group.
    Of course they can. But not by trying their hardest to be Jewish.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  8. #128
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Were the Jews who died when Assyria invaded martyrs? I don't believe so, any more than I believe that those who died in Sodom and Gomorrah were martyrs.
    Were the Jews who died when Babylonia invaded martyrs? I don't believe so, any more than I believe the first born of Egypt were martyrs.
    Were the Jews who died when Rome destroyed Jerusalem martyrs? I don't believe so, any more than i believe the Canaanites were martyrs.
    You're making a universalistic point that isn't in the bible. God hold Jews to a higher standard because we should know better. See Amos 3:2. So whereas a gentile could eat pork all day long and it's no sin, for a Jew it is a very serious sin. The curses that God lays out in the bible for disobedience apply strictly and only to the Jews. This is not controversial. So you can't compare The Judeans to the Caananites.

    So far as them being martyrs, the Maccabeans revolted against Greece for the same reason that the Judeans revolted against Rome: For the right to practice their religion as they saw fit, free of foreign involvement by gentiles. Whether this was wise or not, who can say. But I'll include a quote by the rebel leader at Masada, shortly before they committed suicide rather than be captured:

    “Since we long ago resolved never to be servants to the Romans, nor to any other than to God Himself, Who alone is the true and just Lord of mankind, the time is now come that obliges us to make that resolution true in practice...We were the very first that revolted, and we are the last to fight against them; and I cannot but esteem it as a favor that God has granted us, that it is still in our power to die bravely, and in a state of freedom.”

    Can you doubt his faith? His devotion to God? I can't.

    Were they martyrs? Yes.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  9. #129
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It was God's decision not Christianity's but He gave a new and better law as well as covenant.
    Not a new law. Same law with one minor change.

  10. #130
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Not a new law. Same law with one minor change.
    No, it was a new law with massive changes.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #131
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Actually, that's exactly what you said in post #120. That Jews, by holding fast to the law as God instructs us to do in the bible, are actually committing idolatry.

    Of course they can. But not by trying their hardest to be Jewish.
    No, that's not what I said in post #120. I've been having this argument with you before, in Contro. You seem to think all Jews are good, as long as they keep to the externals of the Law. My argument is that the Jews have been adept at looking good on the outside, while actually being corrupt on the inside. This is true in all cultures and among all peoples. I'd just like you to admit that, because this is a necessary premise for what follows in my arguments.

    You may or may not realize this, but Protestant Christians have argued this for centuries, that there is a difference between "nominal Christianity" and "genuine Christianity." Today we know this as "those who walk the talk."

    I'm certainly not arguing that all Jews who follow the Law today are horrible people, and hypocritical. On the contrary, I find you to be an honorable Jew. I don't think it gets you into heaven. But it makes you a good person, making it perhaps likely that you will make it into heaven.

    But as a Jew you're not even concerned about what I believe. You just don't want to be falsely accused. So I'm here trying to assure you that you are misreading me. I'm *not* saying that all Jews are bad because they follow the Law.

    What I am saying, however, is that at certain times in history a whole society goes bad, like a rotten apple. I think the Jewish generation at the time of Jesus was such a generation. This certainly doesn't mean that all generations of Jews since the time of Jesus are bad or corrupt generations. I don't believe that at all. Every generation has to be judged on its own merits.

    So I'm just trying to get you to see that nations rise and fall. All nations have their renaissance and their decline. If so, then during a particularly bad time in Israel's history, the Jews could be following the Law and still be corrupt within. Such a time existed, I believe, in the time right before the Babylonian Captivity. And such a time also existed in the generation that rejected Jesus.

    I don't believe in collective blood liability in the sense of collective Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus. The Jews are not collectively guilty in all generations for what happened to Jesus. Only the generation that turned over Jesus to the Romans was guilty. And only the people who were responsible for this act were guilty. Unfortunately, in that generation most all the Jews turned against Jesus and his disciples in the end.

    There is, however, a different Christian sense of collective responsibility for Jesus' death that has nothing to do with being Jewish or any ethnicity for that matter. It has to do with seeing Jesus as representative of Deity, against whom we sin every time we do wrong. Thus, *all* human sin is guilty for the death of Jesus inasmuch as every sin is committed against God!

    This is the basis for Christian forgiveness, that if we are all guilty of committing sin against God, all we need is God's forgiveness to have our slate wiped clean. Christians see this actually took place in history in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

  12. #132
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm certainly not arguing that all Jews who follow the Law today are horrible people, and hypocritical. On the contrary, I find you to be an honorable Jew. I don't think it gets you into heaven. But it makes you a good person, making it perhaps likely that you will make it into heaven.
    Only one way to the Father and that is through the Son, no matter how good a person you are or not.

    It is not good persons that go to heaven, but believers.

  13. #133
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, that's not what I said in post #120.
    Post 120:

    I don't mean to be rude, Fenris, but have you considered the possibility that your fellow Jews--the same who for centuries have sometimes gone astray--have elevated the Law to the level of a "golden calf?" Anything can be treated as a "God," and can be worshiped as though a sacred pagan image.

    In other words, by following the law scrupulously, as God demands in the bible, they're actually committing idolatry. That's what you said.

    I've been having this argument with you before, in Contro. You seem to think all Jews are good, as long as they keep to the externals of the Law.
    I don't think all Jews are good, precisely because most don't keep all aspects of the law. But if they did, you'd accuse them of idolatry.
    My argument is that the Jews have been adept at looking good on the outside, while actually being corrupt on the inside.
    And how do you know this? Because you're a mindreader? Divine revelation? Jesus appear to you on the road to Damascus?

    Why, no. The only reason that you think Jews are corrupt on the inside is because they don't believe as you do.

    I'm certainly not arguing that all Jews who follow the Law today are horrible people, and hypocritical. On the contrary, I find you to be an honorable Jew. I don't think it gets you into heaven. But it makes you a good person, making it perhaps likely that you will make it into heaven.
    I actually agree with you. The bible doesn't say what the criteria are to get in to heaven. So I don't worry about it. I just do what God asked me to, and leave the afterlife to Him.

    But as a Jew you're not even concerned about what I believe. You just don't want to be falsely accused. So I'm here trying to assure you that you are misreading me. I'm *not* saying that all Jews are bad because they follow the Law.
    But you did in post 120. Very clearly.

    What I am saying, however, is that at certain times in history a whole society goes bad, like a rotten apple. I think the Jewish generation at the time of Jesus was such a generation. This certainly doesn't mean that all generations of Jews since the time of Jesus are bad or corrupt generations. I don't believe that at all. Every generation has to be judged on its own merits.
    It wasn't a great generation, certainly, but it wasn't all bad either. You'd say Jesus's followers were good, I'd say the Pharisee leadership was good. In the year 64, the priest Joshua ben Gamla mandated that every city have a school for children aged 6 and up, and it was enacted. This meant that Jews achieved a very high level of literacy, specifically biblical literacy, long before the rest of the world. The Jewish revolt against Rome, while most unwise, was caused by good intentions. When the final members of the revolt were penned up in the fortress of Masada, their leader gave a very stirring speech before their mass suicide: “Since we long ago resolved never to be servants to the Romans, nor to any other than to God Himself, Who alone is the true and just Lord of mankind, the time is now come that obliges us to make that resolution true in practice...We were the very first that revolted, and we are the last to fight against them; and I cannot but esteem it as a favor that God has granted us, that it is still in our power to die bravely, and in a state of freedom.” The man certainly sounds faithful to me, not rotten on the inside as you might say.

    So I'm just trying to get you to see that nations rise and fall. All nations have their renaissance and their decline. If so, then during a particularly bad time in Israel's history, the Jews could be following the Law and still be corrupt within. Such a time existed, I believe, in the time right before the Babylonian Captivity. And such a time also existed in the generation that rejected Jesus.
    But you'd have to believe that. I mean, if they were good on the inside, they would follow Jesus, right?
    I don't believe in collective blood liability in the sense of collective Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus. The Jews are not collectively guilty in all generations for what happened to Jesus. Only the generation that turned over Jesus to the Romans was guilty. And only the people who were responsible for this act were guilty.
    Nice to hear. Refreshing, actually.
    Unfortunately, in that generation most all the Jews turned against Jesus and his disciples in the end.
    As I've pointed out, most Jews of that generation probably never even heard of him and had no opportunity to make any choice as a result.

    There is, however, a different Christian sense of collective responsibility for Jesus' death that has nothing to do with being Jewish or any ethnicity for that matter. It has to do with seeing Jesus as representative of Deity, against whom we sin every time we do wrong. Thus, *all* human sin is guilty for the death of Jesus inasmuch as every sin is committed against God!
    And as this is standard Christian theology, I would expect every Christian to have this perception first and foremost when thinking of his death. Not all do, for some odd reason...
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  14. #134
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I actually agree with you. The bible doesn't say what the criteria are to get in to heaven. So I don't worry about it. I just do what God asked me to, and leave the afterlife to Him.
    Ahh but it does dear brother! It most definitely does!


    30Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32Then Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house.…Act 16

    5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.…John 3:5

    John 3:16
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    John 14:6
    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Matthew 7:21-27
    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. ...



    What is the WILL OF THE FATHER?
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.



  15. #135
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, it was a new law with massive changes.
    Paul argues in the book of Hebrews that the New Covenant was predicated on one change in the law: the high priest of Jesus was according to the order of Melchizedek. That's it. Nothing else changes.

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