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Thread: Did Israel possess their land?

  1. #136
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God made a promise to Israel that they would possess the land of Canaan. As in all promises God makes I think the promise is intended to last indefinitely, until conditions exist in which the point is moot.

    I do think Israel possessed Canaan, in fulfillment of the initial promise to possess the land. But the idea of *eternal possession* remains unfulfilled. In a sense, Israel never completely possessed their land under the Law. The pagan foreigners were never completely driven out. And even after establishing their own kingdom, Israel failed to completely commit to the Law. The Law may have provided forgiveness, but many in Israel didn't even believe in the Law. Instead, they turned to idolatry, or to compromise with idol worship.

    And so, possessing the land for God is, for me, two fold. One, Israel must all commit to the worship of God. And two, they must be able to commit to God for all time. Neither of these elements were satisfied under the Old Covenant of Law. And so, that system was abandoned by God, even as all Israel generally rejected Christ, God's Son.

    So is there a future possession of Canaan that will be eternal? I think so. I believe God established the new Christian system in order to retrieve Israel in the future, and give them back the land on an eternal basis. It will cause all Israel to commit to Christ. And those who refuse to so commit will be dismissed from the land and from the society. All views are welcome!

    Without question, God made a promise to give a physical land to the Fathers. No one can argue that this land promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the land of Canaan

    Gen 15: 18On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your Seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates...

    Yet, the New Testament confims that these men never inherited this land while they lived (Acts 7:5)

    The scriptures then unquestionable tell us that this land “PROMISED TO THE FATHERS” will be given at the resurrection of the dead.

    Eze 37:12..."Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel...25"Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt

    Notice that AFTER the saints come up out of the graves, they will enter the “land... WHERE YOUR FATHERS DWELT”. No one can deny that the “FATHERS DWELT” in Canaan. Therefore, the saints must inherit the land of Canaan after the resurrection. To me, this settles it...

  2. #137
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Paul argues in the book of Hebrews that the New Covenant was predicated on one change in the law: the high priest of Jesus was according to the order of Melchizedek. That's it. Nothing else changes.
    Hebrews 9 and 10 speak of the regulations that changed too. Not only did the priesthood change (and that alone was a HUGE change), but so did the regulations of worship. Heb 8:13-10:9. The entire covenant, and the law within it was done away with and replaced with a better covenant.

    Also, the sacrificial regulations changed, being replaced with a better sacrifice, namely Jesus. As did the temple, which was only a symbol of the heavenly.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Without question, God made a promise to give a physical land to the Fathers. No one can argue that this land promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the land of Canaan

    Gen 15: 18On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your Seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates...

    Yet, the New Testament confims that these men never inherited this land while they lived (Acts 7:5)

    The scriptures then unquestionable tell us that this land “PROMISED TO THE FATHERS” will be given at the resurrection of the dead.

    Eze 37:12..."Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel...25"Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt

    Notice that AFTER the saints come up out of the graves, they will enter the “land... WHERE YOUR FATHERS DWELT”. No one can deny that the “FATHERS DWELT” in Canaan. Therefore, the saints must inherit the land of Canaan after the resurrection. To me, this settles it...
    So, are you saying that Israel will inherit Canaan in immortal bodies as Christians? In the Millennium do you see mortal nations continuing as they are today?

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So, are you saying that Israel will inherit Canaan in immortal bodies as Christians? In the Millennium do you see mortal nations continuing as they are today?
    I believe the righteous remnant of Israel (old testament saints and New covenant Messianic Jews) along with believing Gentiles make up the "those who are in Christ" and are inheritors of the promises to the Patriarchs. They will be resurrected and given governmental authority over the nations. The nations will consist of mortal survivors that will repopulate the earth. I believe this was the position of the Early Chiliast as well...

    Lactantius Divine Institutes CH 24

    "Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges.140 But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God...

    Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 5, Ch 34
    That the whole creation shall, according to God’s will, obtain a vast increase, that it may bring forth and sustain fruits such [as we have mentioned], Isaiah declares: “And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every prominent hill, water running everywhere in that day, when many shall perish, when walls shall fall. And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, seven times that of the day, when He shall heal the anguish of His people, and do away with the pain of His stroke.” (Isa 30:25, Isa 30:26) Now “the pain of the stroke” means that inflicted at the beginning upon disobedient man in Adam, that is, death; which [stroke] the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers, as Isaiah again says: “And thou shall be confident in the Lord, and He will cause thee to pass over the whole earth, and feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father.” (Isa 58:14) This is what the Lord declared: “Happy are those servants whom the Lord when He cometh shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down [to meat], and will come forth and serve them. And if He shall come in the evening watch, and find them so, blessed are they, because He shall make them sit down, and minister to them; or if this be in the second, or it be in the third, blessed are they.” (Luk 12:37, Luk 12:38) Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.” (Rev 20:6) Then, too, Isaiah has declared the time when these events shall occur; he says: “And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth.” (Isa 6:11) Then Daniel also says this very thing: “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” (Dan 7:27) And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: “And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days.” (Dan 12:13)

    Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 5, Ch 35
    If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: “When the cities” of the Gentiles “shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate.” (Isa 6:11) “For, behold,” says Isaiah, “the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it.” (Isa 13:9) And again he says, “Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God.” (Isa 26:10) And when these things are done, he says, “God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.” (Isa 6:12) “And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.” (Isa 65:21) For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: “And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,” And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, “Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God.

  5. #140

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Without question, God made a promise to give a physical land to the Fathers. No one can argue that this land promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the land of Canaan

    Gen 15: 18On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your Seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates...

    Yet, the New Testament confims that these men never inherited this land while they lived (Acts 7:5)

    The scriptures then unquestionable tell us that this land “PROMISED TO THE FATHERS” will be given at the resurrection of the dead.

    Eze 37:12..."Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel...25"Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt

    Notice that AFTER the saints come up out of the graves, they will enter the “land... WHERE YOUR FATHERS DWELT”. No one can deny that the “FATHERS DWELT” in Canaan. Therefore, the saints must inherit the land of Canaan after the resurrection. To me, this settles it...
    I see the Ezekiel 37:12,25 passage to be parallel with Romans 11:15 "what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD" [this is not a bodily/physical resurrection] [see also v.25 "blindness... UNTIL"], as well as parallel with Hosea 5:15-6:3, Isaiah 26:16-21, Daniel 12:1-3 [living persons (not formerly-dead ones) being referred to here, the wise among them (that is, of Israel) go on to "turn many to righteousness" (the time frame for this text seems to be mid-trib, IN CONTRAST to v.13--Daniel being physically/bodily resurrected at the END of the trib, to "stand in thy lot" on the earth)], and John 6:39 [as distinct from v.40].

    That is, referring to Israel coming up out of the "graveyard [of nations]" where scattered, in the specific time period LEADING UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. coming to faith WITHIN the tribulation period ("shall put My Spirit in you" v.14)--Once Jesus "returns" [to earth] is too late). Isaiah 27:12-13 [paralleling Matt24:29-31 at END of trib] and Isaiah 24:23, tell "WHERE" (gathered to "Jerusalem").

    I do agree that "the land" is involved. And that resurrected Daniel will "stand in thy lot" (be resurrected to stand again on the earth [neither this, nor what I put in the above paragraphs, refer to "the Rapture" which pertains solely to "the Church which is His body" (pertaining solely to believers existing on the earth between Pentecost and the Rapture; not to all other believers of all other time periods: not to OT saints [i.e Daniel], not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)]).

  6. #141
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Hebrews 9 and 10 speak of the regulations that changed too. Not only did the priesthood change (and that alone was a HUGE change), but so did the regulations of worship. Heb 8:13-10:9. The entire covenant, and the law within it was done away with and replaced with a better covenant.

    Also, the sacrificial regulations changed, being replaced with a better sacrifice, namely Jesus. As did the temple, which was only a symbol of the heavenly.
    I have looked at these passages. And I don't see what you see.

  7. #142
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Without question, God made a promise to give a physical land to the Fathers. No one can argue that this land promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the land of Canaan

    Gen 15: 18On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your Seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates...

    Yet, the New Testament confims that these men never inherited this land while they lived (Acts 7:5)

    The scriptures then unquestionable tell us that this land “PROMISED TO THE FATHERS” will be given at the resurrection of the dead.

    Eze 37:12..."Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel...25"Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt

    Notice that AFTER the saints come up out of the graves, they will enter the “land... WHERE YOUR FATHERS DWELT”. No one can deny that the “FATHERS DWELT” in Canaan. Therefore, the saints must inherit the land of Canaan after the resurrection. To me, this settles it...
    Ezekiel 37:1-14 is an allegory about our spiritual condition today; dead and like dry bones.
    Ezekiel 37:11 ....these bones are the whole House of Israel. They say: Our bones are dry, our hope is gone, we are cut off. Cut off from the Spirit of God.

    But the Day is coming when the Lord will bring us up from this 'dead' state and put His Spirit into us and settle us into our heritage of all the holy Land.
    At that time, we Christians will also join with the remnant of Judah as a single nation in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:21

  8. #143

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    ^ The following verses [below] refer to "the here and now" (to, for, and about "the Church which is His body"):

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies [the ones we still live in, in the here and now] by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Romans 8


    And I just put in a different post, a reference to Jude 1:19 (those "having not the Spirit"): http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...88#post3427488

  9. #144
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Without question, God made a promise to give a physical land to the Fathers. No one can argue that this land promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob was the land of Canaan

    Gen 15: 18On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your Seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates...

    Yet, the New Testament confims that these men never inherited this land while they lived (Acts 7:5)

    The scriptures then unquestionable tell us that this land “PROMISED TO THE FATHERS” will be given at the resurrection of the dead.

    Eze 37:12..."Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel...25"Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt

    Notice that AFTER the saints come up out of the graves, they will enter the “land... WHERE YOUR FATHERS DWELT”. No one can deny that the “FATHERS DWELT” in Canaan. Therefore, the saints must inherit the land of Canaan after the resurrection. To me, this settles it...
    The land promised to Israel has already been given through Moses, God made good on his promise. Let's examine the scriptures you belief speak of the land promised to the Fathers.

    In Acts 7:5 Apostle Stephen was not say that the promised land was not "inherited" rather, he traced Israel's history starting from Abraham, how God told him to leave Mesopotamia and move to Canaan, right up to the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Abraham himself did not inherit the promised land, but his descendants.

    Acts 7: 4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

    5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

    Verse 4 Wherein ye NOW dwell (present tense), Stephen was reminding the Jewish generation listening to him how they came to possess the land they were presently living in. You used v5 to claim the "land" had not been given, whereas Stephen actually said that Abraham himself did not possess the land.

    Ezek 37:12 and 25 also confirms that Israel already inherited the land. With Jesus as King of kings and only Potentate at the millennium, I don't believe there'll ever be any dispute about land.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Only one way to the Father and that is through the Son, no matter how good a person you are or not.

    It is not good persons that go to heaven, but believers.
    Agreed. Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I have looked at these passages. And I don't see what you see.
    You don't see Jesus was the sacrifice? You don't see there was a heavenly temple?

    You don't see the regulations of the old have passed away?

    Heb 8:13-9:2

    13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
    NASB

    The regulations were fading away. Why? Because much had been replaced. First, the earthly temple always pointed to something else.

    Heb 9:8-11
    8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

    11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
    NASB

    A tabernacle not made with hands, and Jesus provided a way for all of us to become priest after the order of Melchisidek.

    Heb 9:12
    12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood,
    NASB

    And it wasn't the blood of goats and calves that made this possible, but His own blood did.

    Heb 9:23-28

    23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
    NASB

    The copies of things in heaven were under the old law. But the new covenant, we go directly to the source The tabernacle not made with hands! And Christ sacrifice is so MUCH GREATER than what was before, that He doesn't have to be offered every year, but once and for all. He replaced all those things.

    And on and on.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    You don't see Jesus was the sacrifice?
    Sure, as I said the high priest has changed.

    You don't see there was a heavenly temple?
    There has always been a heavenly temple.

    You don't see the regulations of the old have passed away?
    None of the regulations have passed away.

    The regulations were fading away.
    Paul didn't say the regulations passed away. He said the Old Covenant was about to pass away.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Sure, as I said the high priest has changed.
    the high priest didn't have to change for Jesus to be the sacrifice. It had to change for Jesus to be the High Priest.

    There has always been a heavenly temple.
    yes. But we didn't have access till the new covenant was put in place.

    None of the regulations have passed away.

    Paul didn't say the regulations passed away. He said the Old Covenant was about to pass away.
    The regulations of the covenant pass away when the covenant itself passes away. And the old covenant was replaced with a new one, thus, the old regulations have passed away.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Sure, as I said the high priest has changed.

    There has always been a heavenly temple.

    None of the regulations have passed away.

    Paul didn't say the regulations passed away. He said the Old Covenant was about to pass away.
    CandZ, seems that the Galatians were believing what you seem to be believing based on these answers. Didn't Paul correct them and told them that the Old Covenant was death and a curse to them if they were to follow that Covenants regulations? Even said they were bewitched for thinking that those regulations had any bearing in following ANY of them concerning their relationship with God
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    CandZ, seems that the Galatians were believing what you seem to be believing based on these answers. Didn't Paul correct them and told them that the Old Covenant was death and a curse to them if they were to follow that Covenants regulations? Even said they were bewitched for thinking that those regulations had any bearing in following ANY of them concerning their relationship with God
    No. Paul said that if they were to receive circumcision Christ would be of no benefit to them. Paul was not arguing against the Jews keeping the Law. They were legally obligated to do so. His argument was against the Judaizers who took pride in how many Gentiles they could cause to be circumcised, and they did so out of fear of being persecuted by the same authorities that persecuted Paul for not living Jewishly. Paul wasn't telling Jews, "don't be Jewish"; he was telling Gentiles, "don't think that being Jewish is a requirement for justification."

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