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Thread: Did Israel possess their land?

  1. #1

    Did Israel possess their land?

    God made a promise to Israel that they would possess the land of Canaan. As in all promises God makes I think the promise is intended to last indefinitely, until conditions exist in which the point is moot.

    I do think Israel possessed Canaan, in fulfillment of the initial promise to possess the land. But the idea of *eternal possession* remains unfulfilled. In a sense, Israel never completely possessed their land under the Law. The pagan foreigners were never completely driven out. And even after establishing their own kingdom, Israel failed to completely commit to the Law. The Law may have provided forgiveness, but many in Israel didn't even believe in the Law. Instead, they turned to idolatry, or to compromise with idol worship.

    And so, possessing the land for God is, for me, two fold. One, Israel must all commit to the worship of God. And two, they must be able to commit to God for all time. Neither of these elements were satisfied under the Old Covenant of Law. And so, that system was abandoned by God, even as all Israel generally rejected Christ, God's Son.

    So is there a future possession of Canaan that will be eternal? I think so. I believe God established the new Christian system in order to retrieve Israel in the future, and give them back the land on an eternal basis. It will cause all Israel to commit to Christ. And those who refuse to so commit will be dismissed from the land and from the society. All views are welcome!

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God made a promise to Israel that they would possess the land of Canaan. As in all promises God makes I think the promise is intended to last indefinitely, until conditions exist in which the point is moot.

    I do think Israel possessed Canaan, in fulfillment of the initial promise to possess the land. But the idea of *eternal possession* remains unfulfilled. In a sense, Israel never completely possessed their land under the Law. The pagan foreigners were never completely driven out. And even after establishing their own kingdom, Israel failed to completely commit to the Law. The Law may have provided forgiveness, but many in Israel didn't even believe in the Law. Instead, they turned to idolatry, or to compromise with idol worship.

    And so, possessing the land for God is, for me, two fold. One, Israel must all commit to the worship of God. And two, they must be able to commit to God for all time. Neither of these elements were satisfied under the Old Covenant of Law. And so, that system was abandoned by God, even as all Israel generally rejected Christ, God's Son.

    So is there a future possession of Canaan that will be eternal? I think so. I believe God established the new Christian system in order to retrieve Israel in the future, and give them back the land on an eternal basis. It will cause all Israel to commit to Christ. And those who refuse to so commit will be dismissed from the land and from the society. All views are welcome!
    Your precis is quite correct.
    There WILL come a time that the holy Land will be occupied by only the Lord's faithful Christian people. All the true Israelites of God; Jew and Gentile, male and female., etc.

    Judges 1:16-36 makes it plain that the ancient Israelites never properly took over the Land that the Lord gave them. This awaits fulfilment and this time; the Lord Himself will totally clear the Land for His people. Deuteronomy 32:43, Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14-16, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    But the idea of *eternal possession* remains unfulfilled.
    It could be their eternal possession, even when they weren't living there. Just a thought.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God made a promise to Israel that they would possess the land of Canaan. As in all promises God makes I think the promise is intended to last indefinitely, until conditions exist in which the point is moot.

    I do think Israel possessed Canaan, in fulfillment of the initial promise to possess the land. But the idea of *eternal possession* remains unfulfilled. In a sense, Israel never completely possessed their land under the Law. The pagan foreigners were never completely driven out. And even after establishing their own kingdom, Israel failed to completely commit to the Law. The Law may have provided forgiveness, but many in Israel didn't even believe in the Law. Instead, they turned to idolatry, or to compromise with idol worship.

    And so, possessing the land for God is, for me, two fold. One, Israel must all commit to the worship of God. And two, they must be able to commit to God for all time. Neither of these elements were satisfied under the Old Covenant of Law. And so, that system was abandoned by God, even as all Israel generally rejected Christ, God's Son.

    So is there a future possession of Canaan that will be eternal? I think so. I believe God established the new Christian system in order to retrieve Israel in the future, and give them back the land on an eternal basis. It will cause all Israel to commit to Christ. And those who refuse to so commit will be dismissed from the land and from the society. All views are welcome!
    WE can agree on most of this (for a change ). I would just like to add my view.

    In Romans 9:4 we have the matter condensed into one verse. It reads;

    "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises."

    Note that the word "Covenants" is plural. And even a superficial study of Israel will show a number of Covenants. Besides being subject to the Covenant with Noah, which is made with ALL men (Gen.9:17), they had the Covenant of PROMISE with Abraham and his seed, the Covenant of Circumcision, the Covenant of Law at Sinai, the Covenant of the Sabbath, the Covenant of the Passover, the Davidic Covenant, the Covenant with the Levites and the New Covenant of Law. The two which pertain to this Thread are the two of Galatians 3:17. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."

    The Covenant of PROMISE is that God would give the Land of Canaan, with its fixed borders, to Abraham and his seed. In the ratification of this Covenant, God ALONE passed through the "CUT" offerings, indicating that He takes it solely upon Himself to accomplish this Covenant (Gen.15:17). It is thus called a Contract of Promise. 430 years later, Israel received the Covenant of Law at Sinai. This Covenant was (1) TWO-SIDED, as most contracts are, with both sides obliged to perform, and (2) was intended to supplement the Covenant of Promise in that it guaranteed Israel's CONTINUED OCCUPATION OF THE GOOD LAND (Deuteronomy 4:40, 5:33, 11:8-9, etc. etc.). The gory history of Israel is well known. Although Israel finally OCCUPIED the Good Land of Canaan, and its borders reached their zenith under David, their sins after David polluted the Land and God was forced, by the condition of the Contract of Sinai, to "vomit" Israel out of their Land (Lev.18:28).

    The big questions now facing men is;
    1. IS GOD TRUE TO HIS (one-sided) PROMISE? Will Israel have Canaan as an "everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8)?
    2. HOW CAN GOD FULFILL BOTH THE COVENANT OF PROMISE AND THE COVENANT OF LAW in which Israel has EARNED expulsion from their Land?

    These questions are answered through the Old and New Testament, BUT ESPECIALLY IN ROMANS CHAPTERS 9 TO 11. AND THE ANSWER IS TO BOTH IS A RESOUNDING "YES"! How then shall God NOT INFRINGE His righteousness and yet re-instate Israel? The question is answered in Jehovah's explanation to Abraham in Genesis 15:12-16. It reads;

    12 "And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
    13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
    14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
    15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
    16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."


    This passage irrevocably establishes three things:
    1. Abraham is predicted to die before he owns the Promised Land. In his wife and his death, he had to PAY for the small burial ground of Machpelah, showing that he did not own the Land
    2. At least four generations of Abraham's seed will die in Egypt before they gain the Promised Land. The fifth died in the wilderness
    3. The final gaining of the Land is when the Gentile occupiers have filled the sum of all iniquity

    That is, the bulk of Israel, Abraham's seed, will die before gaining the Land. Therefore, the Covenant of Promise will only be fulfilled IN RESURRECTION. This is confirmed in TWO things.
    1. All those five generations mentioned above did not get the Promised Land
    2. All those millions of Jews who were born after the various captivities and dispersions did not get the Land

    Hebrews 11:13 confirms; "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

    So, although millions of Abraham's seed did not get the Land as an "everlasting possession", the plan of God is obvious. He will give them the Land when THEY ARE IN A WORTHY CONDITION. What made them UNWORTHY? Answer ... THE FLESH! The Covenant of Sinai addressed the flesh, and although the Covenant of Sinai is good, spiritual and God-given, it addresses the weakest element of man - the fallen flesh (Rom.8:3). So God's solution is TWOFOLD;
    1. Away with the flesh THROUGH DEATH AND RESURRECTION! This is so adequately illustrated in Ezekiel Chapter 37.
    2. Institute a New Covenant of Law that does not address the flesh but is written in the hearts and spirits of the Israelite (Jer.31:31-33; Heb.8:8-10)

    But, one might ask, on what basis can Israel's sins be set aside for God to do this. The answer is, THE ALL-ENCOMPASSING DEATH OF CHRIST AS APPLIED BY JEHOVAH. In John 1:29 our Lord takes away the SIN (singular) of the WORLD. This is the Adamic nature that is passed on to all men and causes physical death (Rom.5:12). And in 1st John 2:2 our Lord Jesus takes away the SINS (plural) of the world. These are ALL TRESPASSES ever committed by any man. Judicially, God has the right, through the ALL-ENCOMPASSING death of Christ, to do what He likes. And so, concerning Israel, Zechariah, under inspiration, can say in Luke 1:68-73.

    68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham


    The Covenant here is, of course, the Covenant of PROMISE!

    To summarize;
    • God made a Covenant with an OATH that Israel would get their Land for an "everlasting possession"
    • Some of Israel occupied the Land for a while but were driven out for breaking the Covenant of Sinai - the Law
    • The vast bulk of Abraham's seed have not ever gained the Land - making the fulfillment of the Promise FUTURE
    • The Patriarchs died not having received the Promise so they, and most of Israel, will receive it in RESURRECTION
    • The Covenant of Sinai, ineffectual because of the flesh, will be replaced by a New Covenant of the SAME law, but written on the inner parts of the Israelite
    • God will keep His Covenant of Promise, BUT IN MUCH BETTER CONDITIONS (Heb.8:6) when the time of the Gentiles is full

  5. #5

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your precis is quite correct.
    There WILL come a time that the holy Land will be occupied by only the Lord's faithful Christian people. All the true Israelites of God; Jew and Gentile, male and female., etc.

    Judges 1:16-36 makes it plain that the ancient Israelites never properly took over the Land that the Lord gave them. This awaits fulfilment and this time; the Lord Himself will totally clear the Land for His people. Deuteronomy 32:43, Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14-16, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
    Yes, Keraz, I was reading another commentary, which suggested Israel only kept the land for God, and never fully "rested" in that possession. When failure to possess the land takes place, the land reverts back to God. When Israel will fully possess it for all time is a matter of Christianity being planted there permanently. Whether that involves only Jewish Christianity or international Christianity I'm not sure. But I'm glad we agree on at least this important aspect of it.

  6. #6

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It could be their eternal possession, even when they weren't living there. Just a thought.
    Well, I know you don't agree, but I do believe Jesus made a down payment on it on behalf of you Jews, who do not *yet* believe in him.

  7. #7

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    WE can agree on most of this (for a change ). I would just like to add my view.

    In Romans 9:4 we have the matter condensed into one verse. It reads;

    "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises."

    Note that the word "Covenants" is plural. And even a superficial study of Israel will show a number of Covenants. Besides being subject to the Covenant with Noah, which is made with ALL men (Gen.9:17), they had the Covenant of PROMISE with Abraham and his seed, the Covenant of Circumcision, the Covenant of Law at Sinai, the Covenant of the Sabbath, the Covenant of the Passover, the Davidic Covenant, the Covenant with the Levites and the New Covenant of Law. The two which pertain to this Thread are the two of Galatians 3:17. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."

    The Covenant of PROMISE is that God would give the Land of Canaan, with its fixed borders, to Abraham and his seed. In the ratification of this Covenant, God ALONE passed through the "CUT" offerings, indicating that He takes it solely upon Himself to accomplish this Covenant (Gen.15:17). It is thus called a Contract of Promise. 430 years later, Israel received the Covenant of Law at Sinai. This Covenant was (1) TWO-SIDED, as most contracts are, with both sides obliged to perform, and (2) was intended to supplement the Covenant of Promise in that it guaranteed Israel's CONTINUED OCCUPATION OF THE GOOD LAND (Deuteronomy 4:40, 5:33, 11:8-9, etc. etc.). The gory history of Israel is well known. Although Israel finally OCCUPIED the Good Land of Canaan, and its borders reached their zenith under David, their sins after David polluted the Land and God was forced, by the condition of the Contract of Sinai, to "vomit" Israel out of their Land (Lev.18:28).

    The big questions now facing men is;
    1. IS GOD TRUE TO HIS (one-sided) PROMISE? Will Israel have Canaan as an "everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8)?
    2. HOW CAN GOD FULFILL BOTH THE COVENANT OF PROMISE AND THE COVENANT OF LAW in which Israel has EARNED expulsion from their Land?

    These questions are answered through the Old and New Testament, BUT ESPECIALLY IN ROMANS CHAPTERS 9 TO 11. AND THE ANSWER IS TO BOTH IS A RESOUNDING "YES"! How then shall God NOT INFRINGE His righteousness and yet re-instate Israel? The question is answered in Jehovah's explanation to Abraham in Genesis 15:12-16. It reads;

    12 "And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
    13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
    14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
    15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
    16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."


    This passage irrevocably establishes three things:
    1. Abraham is predicted to die before he owns the Promised Land. In his wife and his death, he had to PAY for the small burial ground of Machpelah, showing that he did not own the Land
    2. At least four generations of Abraham's seed will die in Egypt before they gain the Promised Land. The fifth died in the wilderness
    3. The final gaining of the Land is when the Gentile occupiers have filled the sum of all iniquity

    That is, the bulk of Israel, Abraham's seed, will die before gaining the Land. Therefore, the Covenant of Promise will only be fulfilled IN RESURRECTION. This is confirmed in TWO things.
    1. All those five generations mentioned above did not get the Promised Land
    2. All those millions of Jews who were born after the various captivities and dispersions did not get the Land

    Hebrews 11:13 confirms; "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

    So, although millions of Abraham's seed did not get the Land as an "everlasting possession", the plan of God is obvious. He will give them the Land when THEY ARE IN A WORTHY CONDITION. What made them UNWORTHY? Answer ... THE FLESH! The Covenant of Sinai addressed the flesh, and although the Covenant of Sinai is good, spiritual and God-given, it addresses the weakest element of man - the fallen flesh (Rom.8:3). So God's solution is TWOFOLD;
    1. Away with the flesh THROUGH DEATH AND RESURRECTION! This is so adequately illustrated in Ezekiel Chapter 37.
    2. Institute a New Covenant of Law that does not address the flesh but is written in the hearts and spirits of the Israelite (Jer.31:31-33; Heb.8:8-10)

    But, one might ask, on what basis can Israel's sins be set aside for God to do this. The answer is, THE ALL-ENCOMPASSING DEATH OF CHRIST AS APPLIED BY JEHOVAH. In John 1:29 our Lord takes away the SIN (singular) of the WORLD. This is the Adamic nature that is passed on to all men and causes physical death (Rom.5:12). And in 1st John 2:2 our Lord Jesus takes away the SINS (plural) of the world. These are ALL TRESPASSES ever committed by any man. Judicially, God has the right, through the ALL-ENCOMPASSING death of Christ, to do what He likes. And so, concerning Israel, Zechariah, under inspiration, can say in Luke 1:68-73.

    68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham


    The Covenant here is, of course, the Covenant of PROMISE!

    To summarize;
    • God made a Covenant with an OATH that Israel would get their Land for an "everlasting possession"
    • Some of Israel occupied the Land for a while but were driven out for breaking the Covenant of Sinai - the Law
    • The vast bulk of Abraham's seed have not ever gained the Land - making the fulfillment of the Promise FUTURE
    • The Patriarchs died not having received the Promise so they, and most of Israel, will receive it in RESURRECTION
    • The Covenant of Sinai, ineffectual because of the flesh, will be replaced by a New Covenant of the SAME law, but written on the inner parts of the Israelite
    • God will keep His Covenant of Promise, BUT IN MUCH BETTER CONDITIONS (Heb.8:6) when the time of the Gentiles is full
    That was a very interesting interpretation! And eloquently put--I appreciate that. I suppose I would have to agree with the lion's share of what you say. Abraham's inheritance in the "4th generation" likely had a more literal fulfillment, in the generations immediately following. However, in principle it does suggest that a *resurrection* is required for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to possess it together with their descendants! After all, the land is actually possessed after these 3 died!

    In Hebrews we read that Israel never really entered into their promised rest. That says two things. One, Israel was promised an eternal rest at the end of it all. And two, Israel did not enter into this rest upon their initial occupation of the land.

    So I have to conclude what you did, that resurrection is at least part of it. If all of those Israelites did not possess it, and God promised it to them as an *everlasting possession,* then all of them will have to be raised from the dead to possess it eternally!

    But I go one step farther in saying that even before this resurrection I think Israel will come into her eternal possession, even as mortals. When Christ returns I think Israel will enter into her Kingdom Age as mortals. It appears that the saints who will be resurrected at that time, including Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will rule over the land of Israel, ensuring its eternal longevity. They will be tokens of God's eternal promise, assuring its fulfillment.

    Thanks for your great reply!

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, Keraz, I was reading another commentary, which suggested Israel only kept the land for God, and never fully "rested" in that possession. When failure to possess the land takes place, the land reverts back to God. When Israel will fully possess it for all time is a matter of Christianity being planted there permanently. Whether that involves only Jewish Christianity or international Christianity I'm not sure. But I'm glad we agree on at least this important aspect of it.
    We ARE getting a consensus! It seems to be a great hurdle for people to realize that God's Plan all along, was to have a people in the holy Land who would be His witnesses and who would be His Light to the nations. This has never happened as yet, but it will - when every faithful Christian will live there.

    Many prophesies confirm this truth and I post again one that most clearly states it:
    Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.
    This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people:

    1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

    2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

    3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10
    The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4
    This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Isaiah 32:1-8 A ruler and his ministers will reign in righteousness and justice, they will be as a refuge from a storm, like shade from a great rock in a thirsty land.
    Jeremiah 3:5, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
    Then, those who see, will see clearly and the minds of the heedless people will come to understanding and knowledge. Isaiah 29:23-24, Isaiah 32:3-4
    No longer will the fool be called noble or villains be considered honourable All those types will be shown for what they are. Their plans are evil and they deny justice to the poor and needy. But, he who is of noble mind, will make good plans and stand firm in them. Ecclesiastes 8:5b, Philippians 4:8

    Isaiah 32:9-14 You complacent people; listen to what I have to say: you may be carefree now, but after many years, your vintage will fail. Be terrified, you without a care, you women at ease will go into mourning – for My people’s Land will be forsaken and deserted, an open pasture for the animals. Psalm 60:1-5, Joel 1:1-20, Jeremiah 10:18

    Isaiah 32:15-17 Until a Spirit from on high is lavished upon us. Isaiah 44:3, Eze. 37:14
    Then the wilderness will become a garden land, everywhere, fertile fields. Justice and righteousness will fill the Land, peace and quiet trust will prevail for that time.
    Isaiah 32:18-20 And My people will live in a tranquil country, dwelling in undisturbed peace and security. It will be cool on the slopes of the forested hills, and the towns will lie peacefully in the plains.* Happy you will be tilling and sowing everywhere beside water, your herds and flocks grazing freely. Isaiah 49:9-13, Hosea 2:14-23, Ezekiel 36:33-36, Amos 9:13-15 Ref: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged.

    Chapter 32 of Isaiah, describes beautifully, how the Lord’s Land is cleared in order for His righteous people to live there, as promised to the Patriarchs, and for them to be a “light to the nations”. They will rebuild the Temple, Zechariah 6:15, and send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 14:1-7
    Verses 1-8 These verses describe how the Lord’s people will live in justice and in the knowledge of truth, when they settle into all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 31:27-34

    V. 9-14 Is the result of the forthcoming, terrifying, Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the prophesied judgement of fire mentioned over 100 times in the Bible, that will most severely affect all the Middle East leaving it ‘forsaken and deserted’. Jeremiah 9:10
    This has not happened as described in the past, but it will be the result of a huge C.M.E. fireball ejected from the sun and the rest of the world will suffer severe infrastructure damage and deaths. Jeremiah 25:15-33, Isaiah 2:19-21 It quickly passes, leaving the world to recover and the Land of Israel is soon regenerated. Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24

    V. 15-20 When the Lord’s faithful Christian people are called out of whichever nation they belong to now, Revelation 5:9-10, they will emigrate to the new country of Beulah, Isaiah 62:4, that is: to all that Land promised to Abraham. Then the Lord will send His Spirit upon them and they will live in peace and security. Ezekiel 37:14

    Note*; The translation differences of verse 19, some Bible versions say the towns are ‘low’ or ‘levelled’, but the R.E.Bible renders it correctly and in the right context.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Zechariah 8 and Isaiah 66 both state in certain terms that the coming Kingdom age in the land of Israel is based in the FLESH, not in glorified immortal bodies. These are people living in the flesh, having children, growing old, etc.


    Zechariah 8:3-8

    3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

    4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

    5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof
    .

    6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.

    7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

    8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.



    12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

    13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God made a promise to Israel that they would possess the land of Canaan. As in all promises God makes I think the promise is intended to last indefinitely, until conditions exist in which the point is moot.

    I do think Israel possessed Canaan, in fulfillment of the initial promise to possess the land. But the idea of *eternal possession* remains unfulfilled. In a sense, Israel never completely possessed their land under the Law. The pagan foreigners were never completely driven out. And even after establishing their own kingdom, Israel failed to completely commit to the Law. The Law may have provided forgiveness, but many in Israel didn't even believe in the Law. Instead, they turned to idolatry, or to compromise with idol worship.

    And so, possessing the land for God is, for me, two fold. One, Israel must all commit to the worship of God. And two, they must be able to commit to God for all time. Neither of these elements were satisfied under the Old Covenant of Law. And so, that system was abandoned by God, even as all Israel generally rejected Christ, God's Son.

    So is there a future possession of Canaan that will be eternal? I think so. I believe God established the new Christian system in order to retrieve Israel in the future, and give them back the land on an eternal basis. It will cause all Israel to commit to Christ. And those who refuse to so commit will be dismissed from the land and from the society. All views are welcome!
    Jesus would not be a "Christian" if he were here today. Your so-called "Christian system" is nothing but a wisp, a shadow of what is to come.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It could be their eternal possession, even when they weren't living there. Just a thought.
    Esatto! God gave them the land in perpetuity and exile did not change that. Obedience to the law remains a condition for occupation of the land, but ownership of the land is forever.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Esatto! God gave them the land in perpetuity and exile did not change that. Obedience to the law remains a condition for occupation of the land, but ownership of the land is forever.
    Could not have said it better myself!

    So much to talk about here. For the past 2,000 years, at Jewish weddings, there has been a song based on Jeremiah 33: "Yet in the empty streets of Jerusalem and Judah's other towns, there will be heard once more the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride..."

    How fortunate are we to live in an age when this became true in fact?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  14. #14

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Jesus would not be a "Christian" if he were here today. Your so-called "Christian system" is nothing but a wisp, a shadow of what is to come.
    I don't know if you just love making outrageous statements, or are a "bomb-thrower," or what? Jesus loved the Church. How can you say he would not be a part of Christianity if he were here today? Obviously, he would not be a "Christian" in the sense of a follower, since he is the one who is followed. Sometimes I wonder who you are, if you besmirch Christianity?

  15. #15

    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Could not have said it better myself!

    So much to talk about here. For the past 2,000 years, at Jewish weddings, there has been a song based on Jeremiah 33: "Yet in the empty streets of Jerusalem and Judah's other towns, there will be heard once more the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride..."

    How fortunate are we to live in an age when this became true in fact?
    I also am excited and get emotional about that, on behalf of the Jewish People. I do not say Christianity is required for any other reason that one would say the Jews need to believe Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or Daniel. Well, of course it is more than that. It is a matter of needing a lawful system of righteousness.

    But I would never say there is any condition otherwise on your occupation of the land, including following the Law. The lamb has been sacrificed, baptismal waters exist that can cleanse forever. We now await Israel's justification after millennia of international cruelties committed against the Jewish People.

    This is all about divine love and divine patience. We cannot make it happen. But in God's mind it has always been a fact *in advance!*

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