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Thread: the Millennial reign of the Church

  1. #31
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    I'll add to my "no sacrifice" comment if Randyk does. Its his thread so I shouldn't have gone off topic.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  2. #32
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    I'll add to my "no sacrifice" comment if Randyk does. Its his thread so I shouldn't have gone off topic.
    I welcome digressions! It's not really my thread, except for the first couple of posts. Then it belongs to others. I usually get what I want out of it fairly quickly. But like the others, sometimes I remain engaged because of other related subjects that come up.

    As for sacrifices, I think the Jews could build a temple at which sacrifices are offered. I just think that if that happens, it will mean nothing to God. It will not be a part of God's plan for the Jewish People. If that happens it may be very well that the Antichrist will step into that kind of temple! But I don't know....
    Last edited by randyk; Feb 15th 2018 at 02:56 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    I find Psalm 51 useful in understanding sacrifices.
    David notes God abhors his sacrifices, however once he is cleansed then the sacrifices are pleasing.
    Too often we have sacrifices backwards, as if they cleanse us (the Jews) from sin. Only the sin offering was for that.
    All other sacrifices were for thanksgiving or to acknowledge how great God is.
    I think our view is shaped by the story of Job who sacrificed for His children's sin.
    This is not Mosaic / temple sacrifice and we should be aware of the difference.

  4. #34
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    One problem with modern millennium theories is that they are essentially elitist. They place a racial group (usually Israel) in a superior position to everybody else. I am Amill for other reasons, but if I were to accept a literal interpretation of the thousand years, I would say that it is the "Church" who rules and reigns on earth with Christ - not a racial elite.

    (and certainly not with a return to animal sacrifice)

    As best as I remember, this is the view of George Ladd, one of the few premillers that I admire.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I completely agree with you. This is where Dispensationalism comes "unhinged," viewing a restored Israel as once again the "Chosen Nation." I don't think we'll ever go back there. Only Christianity is "chosen." Israel can be "chosen" along with other Christian nations when they become Christian themselves!
    The problem with discarding Israel is that
    1. nearly the whole Old Testament must either be discarded, or taken allegorically
    2. God's Promises are annulled

    Before we enter a battle that has been discussed and discussed, let me just say that I understand the tendency of men of every persuasion to want everything in a straight line. Our environment dictates this to a large extent. The Laws of nature are single and unchanging, and humankind is comfortable with single and settled matters. But God has no such constraint. He can work with two or more sets of parameters simultaneously without effort to reality or His intellect. Most Bible students like things to fall into place, and any aberration is upsetting. The result of this natural tendency, Christians have summarized the Bible into one Chapter. It goes something like this;

    "God made man for His glory. Man fell because he was deceived by an adversary. God loves man so He started a work of recovery. He raised up one man - Abraham, and from Abraham came some nations, the CHOSEN of which was Israel. Israel were promised a Messiah and this Messiah duly came and offered Israel the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course, to reconcile some perceived problems, the "Kingdom OF Heaven" is subtly changed to the "Kingdom IN Heaven". Israel duly refused both the Messiah and the Kingdom, and murdered their Messiah. But this slaying of Messiah was good because He died for the sin and sins of the world. Israel, because they rejected their Messiah are set aside and God rises up a New Entity called the Church. This is made up now of men and women who believe in Jesus Christ, and after a life of getting the most out of a generous God by prayer, the Christian duly dies and goes to heaven. The earth is dissolved and the Church lives happily for ever in "Mansions" on streets of Gold, praising the Lord."

    Now, it is clear that with this scenario, there is no place for Israel or the nations. The Christian, believing that the earth is destroyed (while conveniently ignoring that the same verse, Revelation 20:11, says that heaven is gone too), is at a loss to explain where hell is, and is at a total loss to explain why we need resurrection. Added to this he/she is forced, for convenience's sake, to muse about all babies, children and men who ever lived, and who died before they could hear the Gospel, for their theology dictates that the "unbeliever" goes to hell and is lost.

    I do not blame the average Christian for this desperately insulting theology and desperately disparaging view of a righteous and almighty God. The modern Pastor has much more important things to do than teach the truths of the Bible. After all, he earns his living from the saints, so his energy, like any working man, goes into running the "business" of the Church and this leaves almost no time for teaching "his flock". But for those who search, the promise of God is there. You will be revealed the truth, and you will have the opportunity to apply it. And Israel, though a completely different entity than the Church, must be correctly understood SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD'S REPUTATION STANDS ON IT. God made promises and these promises are so strong that they are DOUBLY set in granite. In Hebrews 6:12-18 it reads:

    12 "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
    13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
    14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
    15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
    16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
    17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
    18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"


    These few verses, mostly ignored by Christianity at large, contain deep implications.
    1. First, God's promises are immutable, and He swore (1) by oath, and (2) by Himself - the highest instance of the universe (v.13, 17)
    2. Secondly, Hebrews 3:1 shows that the Book of Hebrews is directed at those of "the heavenly calling" - that is, ex-Jews who have become Christians
    3. verses 12-13 show (in bold) that Christians are in line for the Promises made to Abraham. This is confirmed by Galatians 3:29

    AND IF THE CHRISTIAN IS IN LINE FOR THE IMMUTABLE PROMISES OF GOD, HOW THEN CAN THEY FAIL FOR ISRAEL? If the Promises are set by God's name and God's oath, then they apply to Israel. If they don't, (1) God is a liar (perish the thought), (2) God's oath is vain (perish the thought) and the Christian is as destitute as the Israel that they would scratch from the Bible and the future.

    While men like a single line of thought and action, God runs at least TWO.
    • TWO seeds are promised to Abraham. Seed as (1) the sand of the sea shore and (2) seed as the stars of heaven
    • TWO seeds, after being planted in death, are RAISED - one with (1) "Terrestrial glory" and one with (2) "Celestial glory"
    • TWO types of men lived in Jerusalem after Pentecost. (1) Israelites, and (2) ex Israelites who had become the Church
    • TWO types of righteousness are available. (1) Righteousness by the Law given to Israel, and (2) the imputed righteousness established by Christ
    • TWO types of Branches make up the Tree of the Kingdom in Romans 11. (1) natural branches, cut off but reinstated at length, and (2) wild branches grafted in but in danger of being removed
    • TWO different entities make up New Jerusalem. (1) The Walls - those based on Jesus and the Apostles, and (2) the Gates - those of the 12 Tribes of Israel

    Though it is foreign to many, GOD IS RUNNING AND MANAGING TWO ENTITIES BOTH OF WHICH ARE SUBJECT TO, AND ENJOY, THE SAME PROMISES MADE IMMUTABLY BY GOD! One, Israel, was in favor until they left their "Husband" and went a "whoring", and is NOW in chastisement. But presently they will be restored to their Land ACCORDING TO THE PROMISES. The other, the Church, is presently in favor, but faces the Judgement Seat of Christ and could, if they are found slothful, sinful, self-loving and disobedient, be CHASTISED. But those, who are not slothful, who are followers of the men of faith, those who can wait for the Promises from God's hand and not Satan's, and those that endure what Christ has endured for these Promises, WILL INHERIT THESE PROMISES.

    The prophets who addressed Israel addressed a literal nation with prophecies, the which, those that have been fulfilled have been fulfilled literally. And one, made by God Himself, is in Genesis 26:3.

    "Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father"

    Remember, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and five generations NEVER OWNED THE PROMISED LAND. They MUST OWN IT THEN AT A FUTURE DATE or God's reputation is finished.

  5. #35
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Whose Land is it?
    In ancient times, God appeared to Abraham and made a promise to him that his descendants would possess the holy Land, all that area from the Euphrates to the Nile. But he had two sons and the descendants of Ishmael dispute possession with the descendants of Isaac and Jacob. Much blood has been shed over this problem and the current situation, as well as the prophetic scriptures make it certain that another attack is in the offing. Psalms 83:1-8, Micah 4:11
    Both Psalms 83 and Micah 4 as well as many other prophecies say how the commencement of this war will trigger the Lord’s devastating judgement/punishment of the attackers and will affect the whole world, causing a ‘reset of civilization’. A One World Government will be formed, but every faithful Christian, be they of Israel or grafted in, Romans 9:6-8, will gather and settle in all of the holy Land, before the Return of the Messiah.

    Their proof of ownership is a document kept hidden until now, but soon to be revealed:
    Jeremiah 32:6-14 The Word of the Lord came to me: Your relative will ask you to buy his land, as you have right of possession, as next of kin. I bought the Land for 17 shekels of silver and gave the two copies of the deed of purchase to Baruch, who sealed them in a clay jar, so that they would be preserved for a very long time.
    Jeremiah 32:37-44 The Lord says: As I brought upon My people exile and disasters, so shall I bring them all the prosperity which I promise to them. In this Land, now a desolation and given over to foreigners, My people will once again buy and sell houses, fields and vineyards. I shall gather Israel and Judah from all the places where they have been banished, bring them back to their heritage and let them dwell here undisturbed. They will be My people and I will be their God. I will make an everlasting covenant with them and will put a fear of Me into their hearts, so they will not again turn away from Me. It will be a joy to Me to do them good and assuredly I will plant them here.

    Jeremiah 33:6-26 The Lord says: Now I shall bring healing and care for Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I shall cleanse them of all the sins they committed in rebellion against Me. This place will win Me renown from all the nations, when they see the prosperity that I give it. This place, devastated by My judgement will once again hear shouts of joy and praises will be sung in the House of the Lord.
    The days are coming when I shall bestow on Israel and Judah the blessings I have promised to them. In those days and at that time, I will give them a righteous leader, from David’s line. As I cannot change day and night, so the promises I made to the Patriarchs, to David and to My priests will be fulfilled.
    Have you seen how people say: The two families that the Lord chose – He rejected? Now, others despise My people and they are no longer a single nation. As I have established the fixed laws of the heavens, so I choose the descendants of Jacob, and David My servant, and his line will rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In My compassion I will restore their fortunes.
    Ref: Revised English Bible, abridged and paraphrased.

    'preserved for a very long time', Not found yet!
    ‘this place, devastated by My judgement’, All of the holy Land, cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Revelation 12:17, Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5
    'they will be My people and I will be their God',As we know from New Testament teachings; Jesus offers Salvation and Redemption to all who accept Him. Romans 9:24-26
    a righteous leader’ – Initially, this is not Jesus as Jer. 30:21 and Hosea 1:11…The Lord’s holy people; will choose for themselves a leader.

  6. #36
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Whose Land is it?
    In ancient times, God appeared to Abraham and made a promise to him that his descendants would possess the holy Land, all that area from the Euphrates to the Nile. But he had two sons and the descendants of Ishmael dispute possession with the descendants of Isaac and Jacob. Much blood has been shed over this problem and the current situation, as well as the prophetic scriptures make it certain that another attack is in the offing. Psalms 83:1-8, Micah 4:11
    Both Psalms 83 and Micah 4 as well as many other prophecies say how the commencement of this war will trigger the Lord’s devastating judgement/punishment of the attackers and will affect the whole world, causing a ‘reset of civilization’. A One World Government will be formed, but every faithful Christian, be they of Israel or grafted in, Romans 9:6-8, will gather and settle in all of the holy Land, before the Return of the Messiah.

    Their proof of ownership is a document kept hidden until now, but soon to be revealed:
    Jeremiah 32:6-14 The Word of the Lord came to me: Your relative will ask you to buy his land, as you have right of possession, as next of kin. I bought the Land for 17 shekels of silver and gave the two copies of the deed of purchase to Baruch, who sealed them in a clay jar, so that they would be preserved for a very long time.
    Jeremiah 32:37-44 The Lord says: As I brought upon My people exile and disasters, so shall I bring them all the prosperity which I promise to them. In this Land, now a desolation and given over to foreigners, My people will once again buy and sell houses, fields and vineyards. I shall gather Israel and Judah from all the places where they have been banished, bring them back to their heritage and let them dwell here undisturbed. They will be My people and I will be their God. I will make an everlasting covenant with them and will put a fear of Me into their hearts, so they will not again turn away from Me. It will be a joy to Me to do them good and assuredly I will plant them here.

    Jeremiah 33:6-26 The Lord says: Now I shall bring healing and care for Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I shall cleanse them of all the sins they committed in rebellion against Me. This place will win Me renown from all the nations, when they see the prosperity that I give it. This place, devastated by My judgement will once again hear shouts of joy and praises will be sung in the House of the Lord.
    The days are coming when I shall bestow on Israel and Judah the blessings I have promised to them. In those days and at that time, I will give them a righteous leader, from David’s line. As I cannot change day and night, so the promises I made to the Patriarchs, to David and to My priests will be fulfilled.
    Have you seen how people say: The two families that the Lord chose – He rejected? Now, others despise My people and they are no longer a single nation. As I have established the fixed laws of the heavens, so I choose the descendants of Jacob, and David My servant, and his line will rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In My compassion I will restore their fortunes.
    Ref: Revised English Bible, abridged and paraphrased.

    'preserved for a very long time', Not found yet!
    ‘this place, devastated by My judgement’, All of the holy Land, cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Revelation 12:17, Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5
    'they will be My people and I will be their God',As we know from New Testament teachings; Jesus offers Salvation and Redemption to all who accept Him. Romans 9:24-26
    a righteous leader’ – Initially, this is not Jesus as Jer. 30:21 and Hosea 1:11…The Lord’s holy people; will choose for themselves a leader.
    I answer that which I made red.
    • In your first statement now in red you give no verse(s). Mostly, if one wants to promote the idea that Christians will be gathered to the "holy Land", at least two verses directly stating this should be forthcoming.
    • In Jeremiah 32:6.14 Jeremiah was a Jew. His purchase of the Land was an act of obedience and faith, and no doubt he will get that piece of Land in the Millennium. But it is not noteworthy that he had to "buy" it. After all, is not the "holy Land" an inheritance?
    • In Jeremiah 32:37-44 the promise of "gathering to the Land" is directed at Israel and Judah. The Church is neither mentioned nor implied for it was yet a mystery hid from the prophets of old.
    • In Jeremiah 33:6-26 again the prophecy is directed at the ten northern Tribes (Israel) and the two southern (Judah) who were dispersed. The Church is not mentioned. The Church is still future and hidden. The Church was never "dispersed". The words "once again" imply the Temple of Solomon. Thus, the "House of the Lord" mentioned here is a physical Temple. The Church is a "Spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5).
    • The two families of 33:24 cannot refer to Israel and the Church for the following reasons. (1) The king is David. David was king of Israel. There is no king of the Church, only a "Head". (2) Both families were reported to have been cast off in these verses. But the Church did not exist then to be cast off, and the Church is never cast off. (3) According to Acts 15:14-16 David's House lies in ruins while God raised up the Church. (4) Israel, and later Judah, were dispersed fro breaking the Covenant of the Law of Moses. The Church is under no such Covenant by stern warning (Gal.5:1-9)

    Once again, you have brought no verses for the idea of the Church being gathered to Canaan after the Lord returns. ALL your proffered verses address Israel and Judah - the divided Israel of the flesh that has been dispersed among the nations since the Assyrian captivity for breaking the Covenant of Law. It is time to either give up the idea, or post the verses that clearly state that from the New Testament - the words of the Apostles revealing the Church and its destiny.

  7. #37
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The problem with discarding Israel is that
    1. nearly the whole Old Testament must either be discarded, or taken allegorically
    2. God's Promises are annulled

    Before we enter a battle that has been discussed and discussed, let me just say that I understand the tendency of men of every persuasion to want everything in a straight line. Our environment dictates this to a large extent. The Laws of nature are single and unchanging, and humankind is comfortable with single and settled matters. But God has no such constraint. He can work with two or more sets of parameters simultaneously without effort to reality or His intellect. Most Bible students like things to fall into place, and any aberration is upsetting. The result of this natural tendency, Christians have summarized the Bible into one Chapter. It goes something like this;

    "God made man for His glory. Man fell because he was deceived by an adversary. God loves man so He started a work of recovery. He raised up one man - Abraham, and from Abraham came some nations, the CHOSEN of which was Israel. Israel were promised a Messiah and this Messiah duly came and offered Israel the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course, to reconcile some perceived problems, the "Kingdom OF Heaven" is subtly changed to the "Kingdom IN Heaven". Israel duly refused both the Messiah and the Kingdom, and murdered their Messiah. But this slaying of Messiah was good because He died for the sin and sins of the world. Israel, because they rejected their Messiah are set aside and God rises up a New Entity called the Church. This is made up now of men and women who believe in Jesus Christ, and after a life of getting the most out of a generous God by prayer, the Christian duly dies and goes to heaven. The earth is dissolved and the Church lives happily for ever in "Mansions" on streets of Gold, praising the Lord."

    Now, it is clear that with this scenario, there is no place for Israel or the nations. The Christian, believing that the earth is destroyed (while conveniently ignoring that the same verse, Revelation 20:11, says that heaven is gone too), is at a loss to explain where hell is, and is at a total loss to explain why we need resurrection. Added to this he/she is forced, for convenience's sake, to muse about all babies, children and men who ever lived, and who died before they could hear the Gospel, for their theology dictates that the "unbeliever" goes to hell and is lost.

    I do not blame the average Christian for this desperately insulting theology and desperately disparaging view of a righteous and almighty God. The modern Pastor has much more important things to do than teach the truths of the Bible. After all, he earns his living from the saints, so his energy, like any working man, goes into running the "business" of the Church and this leaves almost no time for teaching "his flock". But for those who search, the promise of God is there. You will be revealed the truth, and you will have the opportunity to apply it. And Israel, though a completely different entity than the Church, must be correctly understood SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD'S REPUTATION STANDS ON IT. God made promises and these promises are so strong that they are DOUBLY set in granite. In Hebrews 6:12-18 it reads:

    12 "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
    13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
    14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
    15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
    16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
    17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
    18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"


    These few verses, mostly ignored by Christianity at large, contain deep implications.
    1. First, God's promises are immutable, and He swore (1) by oath, and (2) by Himself - the highest instance of the universe (v.13, 17)
    2. Secondly, Hebrews 3:1 shows that the Book of Hebrews is directed at those of "the heavenly calling" - that is, ex-Jews who have become Christians
    3. verses 12-13 show (in bold) that Christians are in line for the Promises made to Abraham. This is confirmed by Galatians 3:29

    AND IF THE CHRISTIAN IS IN LINE FOR THE IMMUTABLE PROMISES OF GOD, HOW THEN CAN THEY FAIL FOR ISRAEL? If the Promises are set by God's name and God's oath, then they apply to Israel. If they don't, (1) God is a liar (perish the thought), (2) God's oath is vain (perish the thought) and the Christian is as destitute as the Israel that they would scratch from the Bible and the future.

    While men like a single line of thought and action, God runs at least TWO.
    • TWO seeds are promised to Abraham. Seed as (1) the sand of the sea shore and (2) seed as the stars of heaven
    • TWO seeds, after being planted in death, are RAISED - one with (1) "Terrestrial glory" and one with (2) "Celestial glory"
    • TWO types of men lived in Jerusalem after Pentecost. (1) Israelites, and (2) ex Israelites who had become the Church
    • TWO types of righteousness are available. (1) Righteousness by the Law given to Israel, and (2) the imputed righteousness established by Christ
    • TWO types of Branches make up the Tree of the Kingdom in Romans 11. (1) natural branches, cut off but reinstated at length, and (2) wild branches grafted in but in danger of being removed
    • TWO different entities make up New Jerusalem. (1) The Walls - those based on Jesus and the Apostles, and (2) the Gates - those of the 12 Tribes of Israel

    Though it is foreign to many, GOD IS RUNNING AND MANAGING TWO ENTITIES BOTH OF WHICH ARE SUBJECT TO, AND ENJOY, THE SAME PROMISES MADE IMMUTABLY BY GOD! One, Israel, was in favor until they left their "Husband" and went a "whoring", and is NOW in chastisement. But presently they will be restored to their Land ACCORDING TO THE PROMISES. The other, the Church, is presently in favor, but faces the Judgement Seat of Christ and could, if they are found slothful, sinful, self-loving and disobedient, be CHASTISED. But those, who are not slothful, who are followers of the men of faith, those who can wait for the Promises from God's hand and not Satan's, and those that endure what Christ has endured for these Promises, WILL INHERIT THESE PROMISES.

    The prophets who addressed Israel addressed a literal nation with prophecies, the which, those that have been fulfilled have been fulfilled literally. And one, made by God Himself, is in Genesis 26:3.

    "Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father"

    Remember, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and five generations NEVER OWNED THE PROMISED LAND. They MUST OWN IT THEN AT A FUTURE DATE or God's reputation is finished.
    I think you misunderstand my own view of this, since you address those who think Israel has been "discarded." I do *not* think Israel has been discarded. I only believe Israel lived, in the OT Law, under a system that rendered them incapable of achieving their eternal hope. They could not do so until the Christian system came into play, by which *all nations* become eligible for this new system.

    I also wouldn't argue that all men have to become official "Christians" on earth in order to be "saved." Obviously, saints under the OT system will be saved--men like Abraham, David, and the Prophets. There are many people today who will never hear the gospel preached properly, and yet respond well to enough truth that they will qualify to receive Christ at the end of their lives. Yes, Christ is the only basis for salvation. But men may received him via their conscience until they come to know him directly in the future. They may not know him in the here and now, but by their attitude towards truth in their conscience they may be allowed to receive him in the future.

    The idea, though, is for all, Israel and the nations, to receive Christ now--not just so that we can do good and choose to abide by the truth. God also wants us to know Him now, and to be able to cooperate with Him by obedience in fulfilling His plans. The rewards of obedience are much greater than simply doing good!

    Israel has been "chucked off" because of the spiritual decline in her nation, but this is not an eternal judgment. Any nation that has received Christ as a nation, and then turns back to paganism, will suffer the same fate as Israel, and has suffered the same fate as Israel. There have been many Christian nations in history, and we have seem some of them turn back to paganism.

    For example, Communist Russia was once Christian Russia, but has turned back to paganism. And they have suffered greatly as a result. Under Stalin 20 million Russians died. And they remain in decline today.

    The reason Israel is not considered the Chosen Nation today is because they are no longer the only nation under covenant with God. In fact, they no longer have any covenant with God since they, as a nation, reject Christianity. The Law is no longer a valid covenant, in my opinion, and according to Christian theology.

    So Israel has not been cut off from God forever. This condition only exists as long as they, as a nation, reject Christianity. Christianity is a covenant system for all nations, including Israel. Therefore, Israel has *not* been cut off forever.

  8. #38
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom? Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations? Perhaps you don't believe in the Millennium at all? What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all? Thanks! My opinions are somewhat weak in this area.
    The Bible is not explicit in this area so we are all speculating here. My thought is that since Jesus the Messiah will be literally seen and reign in the MK, the saints will also be in physical form and reign with him. But with the ability to appear/disappear, travel distances in nanoseconds at will, just like angels.

    Communication will be by telepathy.

    Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

  9. #39
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think you misunderstand my own view of this, since you address those who think Israel has been "discarded." I do *not* think Israel has been discarded. I only believe Israel lived, in the OT Law, under a system that rendered them incapable of achieving their eternal hope. They could not do so until the Christian system came into play, by which *all nations* become eligible for this new system.

    I also wouldn't argue that all men have to become official "Christians" on earth in order to be "saved." Obviously, saints under the OT system will be saved--men like Abraham, David, and the Prophets. There are many people today who will never hear the gospel preached properly, and yet respond well to enough truth that they will qualify to receive Christ at the end of their lives. Yes, Christ is the only basis for salvation. But men may received him via their conscience until they come to know him directly in the future. They may not know him in the here and now, but by their attitude towards truth in their conscience they may be allowed to receive him in the future.

    The idea, though, is for all, Israel and the nations, to receive Christ now--not just so that we can do good and choose to abide by the truth. God also wants us to know Him now, and to be able to cooperate with Him by obedience in fulfilling His plans. The rewards of obedience are much greater than simply doing good!

    Israel has been "chucked off" because of the spiritual decline in her nation, but this is not an eternal judgment. Any nation that has received Christ as a nation, and then turns back to paganism, will suffer the same fate as Israel, and has suffered the same fate as Israel. There have been many Christian nations in history, and we have seem some of them turn back to paganism.

    For example, Communist Russia was once Christian Russia, but has turned back to paganism. And they have suffered greatly as a result. Under Stalin 20 million Russians died. And they remain in decline today.

    The reason Israel is not considered the Chosen Nation today is because they are no longer the only nation under covenant with God. In fact, they no longer have any covenant with God since they, as a nation, reject Christianity. The Law is no longer a valid covenant, in my opinion, and according to Christian theology.

    So Israel has not been cut off from God forever. This condition only exists as long as they, as a nation, reject Christianity. Christianity is a covenant system for all nations, including Israel. Therefore, Israel has *not* been cut off forever.
    OK. Thanks for taking the time to answer. My posting, which you answer, does, of course, not allow for most of your ideas. It mainly addresses the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. That Covenant, made 430 years before the Covenant of Law, does not hold the word "saved". It does NOT contain the word "Christian". It is a Covenant where the seed of Isaac are to be circumcised, and in return God undertakes, with no other strings attached, to give them a portion of the earth with set borders.

    I enjoy an exchange of ideas but if I start to answer your points of who was saved in the Old Testament, and if there is such a thing as a Christian nation, I fear we will derail the thread. I hope you'll understand.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The Bible is not explicit in this area so we are all speculating here. My thought is that since Jesus the Messiah will be literally seen and reign in the MK, the saints will also be in physical form and reign with him. But with the ability to appear/disappear, travel distances in nanoseconds at will, just like angels.

    Communication will be by telepathy.

    Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
    Interesting. We are told that in the resurrection we will be like angels. But few of us have any idea of the capacity of angels. It may be as you say--just something to think about.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    One problem with modern millennium theories is that they are essentially elitist. They place a racial group (usually Israel) in a superior position to everybody else. I am Amill for other reasons, but if I were to accept a literal interpretation of the thousand years, I would say that it is the "Church" who rules and reigns on earth with Christ - not a racial elite.

    (and certainly not with a return to animal sacrifice)

    As best as I remember, this is the view of George Ladd, one of the few premillers that I admire.
    I'm yet to see anyone promote the concept that Israel (saved or the unsaved) will be in a superior position than anyone else in the millennium. But you are right that the church (the saints) will reign with Christ over the unbelievers in those days.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I answer that which I made red.
    • In your first statement now in red you give no verse(s). Mostly, if one wants to promote the idea that Christians will be gathered to the "holy Land", at least two verses directly stating this should be forthcoming.
    • In Jeremiah 32:6.14 Jeremiah was a Jew. His purchase of the Land was an act of obedience and faith, and no doubt he will get that piece of Land in the Millennium. But it is not noteworthy that he had to "buy" it. After all, is not the "holy Land" an inheritance?
    • In Jeremiah 32:37-44 the promise of "gathering to the Land" is directed at Israel and Judah. The Church is neither mentioned nor implied for it was yet a mystery hid from the prophets of old.
    • In Jeremiah 33:6-26 again the prophecy is directed at the ten northern Tribes (Israel) and the two southern (Judah) who were dispersed. The Church is not mentioned. The Church is still future and hidden. The Church was never "dispersed". The words "once again" imply the Temple of Solomon. Thus, the "House of the Lord" mentioned here is a physical Temple. The Church is a "Spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5).
    • The two families of 33:24 cannot refer to Israel and the Church for the following reasons. (1) The king is David. David was king of Israel. There is no king of the Church, only a "Head". (2) Both families were reported to have been cast off in these verses. But the Church did not exist then to be cast off, and the Church is never cast off. (3) According to Acts 15:14-16 David's House lies in ruins while God raised up the Church. (4) Israel, and later Judah, were dispersed fro breaking the Covenant of the Law of Moses. The Church is under no such Covenant by stern warning (Gal.5:1-9)

    Once again, you have brought no verses for the idea of the Church being gathered to Canaan after the Lord returns. ALL your proffered verses address Israel and Judah - the divided Israel of the flesh that has been dispersed among the nations since the Assyrian captivity for breaking the Covenant of Law. It is time to either give up the idea, or post the verses that clearly state that from the New Testament - the words of the Apostles revealing the Church and its destiny.
    Walls: There's no more "land" for Israel to possess. God has long made good his promise through Moses. While I concur that the church was a mystery hidden to the prophets, I will upend your views above with these simple NT passages.

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1. Jesus as Messiah and King of kings will reign from Jerusalem, HQ of the lands promised to the Fathers.
    2. The passages above confirm that WHEREVER Jesus is, the church shall be there also.
    3. So Keraz was right all along.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Thanks for taking the time to answer. My posting, which you answer, does, of course, not allow for most of your ideas. It mainly addresses the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. That Covenant, made 430 years before the Covenant of Law, does not hold the word "saved". It does NOT contain the word "Christian". It is a Covenant where the seed of Isaac are to be circumcised, and in return God undertakes, with no other strings attached, to give them a portion of the earth with set borders.

    I enjoy an exchange of ideas but if I start to answer your points of who was saved in the Old Testament, and if there is such a thing as a Christian nation, I fear we will derail the thread. I hope you'll understand.
    I'm not sure I have a full grasp of the heart of your exegesis. God made several promises to Abraham. I believe your reference above is from Gal 3:16-17, but this particular promise as rephrased by Paul is not about the land promise, but rather, about the coming of Christ. Paul emphasized that the promise was to "Abraham and his seed, not seeds.

    My apologies if this is outside the topic.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I answer that which I made red.
    • In your first statement now in red you give no verse(s). Mostly, if one wants to promote the idea that Christians will be gathered to the "holy Land", at least two verses directly stating this should be forthcoming.
    • In Jeremiah 32:6.14 Jeremiah was a Jew. His purchase of the Land was an act of obedience and faith, and no doubt he will get that piece of Land in the Millennium. But it is not noteworthy that he had to "buy" it. After all, is not the "holy Land" an inheritance?
    • In Jeremiah 32:37-44 the promise of "gathering to the Land" is directed at Israel and Judah. The Church is neither mentioned nor implied for it was yet a mystery hid from the prophets of old.
    • In Jeremiah 33:6-26 again the prophecy is directed at the ten northern Tribes (Israel) and the two southern (Judah) who were dispersed. The Church is not mentioned. The Church is still future and hidden. The Church was never "dispersed". The words "once again" imply the Temple of Solomon. Thus, the "House of the Lord" mentioned here is a physical Temple. The Church is a "Spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5).
    • The two families of 33:24 cannot refer to Israel and the Church for the following reasons. (1) The king is David. David was king of Israel. There is no king of the Church, only a "Head". (2) Both families were reported to have been cast off in these verses. But the Church did not exist then to be cast off, and the Church is never cast off. (3) According to Acts 15:14-16 David's House lies in ruins while God raised up the Church. (4) Israel, and later Judah, were dispersed fro breaking the Covenant of the Law of Moses. The Church is under no such Covenant by stern warning (Gal.5:1-9)

    Once again, you have brought no verses for the idea of the Church being gathered to Canaan after the Lord returns. ALL your proffered verses address Israel and Judah - the divided Israel of the flesh that has been dispersed among the nations since the Assyrian captivity for breaking the Covenant of Law. It is time to either give up the idea, or post the verses that clearly state that from the New Testament - the words of the Apostles revealing the Church and its destiny.
    Thanks Walls, for your comprehensive reply. I respond to your points:
    1/ There are many prophesies saying that it will be the Lord's holy people who will live in His Land. Deut 30:3, Zechariah 10:8-10, Psalms 107:1-3 and Romans 9:24-26 states the Christians will be in the very place that Israel was told they were not God's sons. John saw the vast multitude, from every race, nation and language of the Lord's people in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal had [will have] removed all the ungodly peoples from there.

    2/ This business of hiding the Title deed for a part of the holy Land is very significant. You downplay it because you don't see why, but God has His purpose and we are told what it is at the end of Jeremiah 32:42-44

    3/ God's mystery is that His Salvation is offered to all thru Jesus. Ethnicity is of no value and what was promised to ethnic Judah is taken from them. Matthew 21:43. The House of Israel is a different entity and they represent Christians today.

    4/ Your confusion evident here. It is attributed to the notion that God still has a chosen ethnic people. How could that be? Isn't Paul clear enough in Ephesians 2:11-18?
    The 'Church', that is God's faithful people, His ekkelasia or congregation, is mentioned throughout the Bible. It has never consisted of just an entire race of people.
    As for the 'Spiritual Temple'; that is what we Christians are during this age, but that truth doesn't preclude another physical Temple being built.

    5/ Jesus is of David's line. He is our King, spiritually now; physically to come.

    You have my beliefs wrong in your last sentence. I believe, KNOW, that all the faithful Christians will go to live in all of the holy Land BEFORE Jesus Returns. We see them there in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
    This is God's incredible Plan and the fulfilment of His desire to have a people who love Him and keep His Commandments there, They will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Interesting. We are told that in the resurrection we will be like angels. But few of us have any idea of the capacity of angels. It may be as you say--just something to think about.
    Perhaps I didn't understand properly the points you were making. Often there is so much biblical material laced into your comments that I can't help but agree with a lot of it! Yes, that was a compliment!

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