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Thread: the Millennial reign of the Church

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    the Millennial reign of the Church

    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom? Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations? Perhaps you don't believe in the Millennium at all? What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all? Thanks! My opinions are somewhat weak in this area.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom? Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations? Perhaps you don't believe in the Millennium at all? What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all? Thanks! My opinions are somewhat weak in this area.
    For me the MK is the start of the NHNE (Isaiah 65 & 66). We will be based in the NJ and will continue as physical human beings of flesh and bone, like Jesus.
    Jesus Himself will be King of Kings, and how many nations will continue after His judgment of Matt 25 is unknown.
    However I think reigning is also put in the context of responsibility for a city or cities.
    The purpose is that the MK is the period while the world is transformed from a wrecked place into the place of His dwelling.
    The work will not be finished until Satan is finally defeated at the end of the MK.
    So it is a time when the River of Life flows out into the world bringing life.
    It is almost a reverse Eden, except the fruit of the tree of life will remain unobtainable for the world EXCEPT they are washed.
    The leaves of the tree will be brought out by us, to bring healing and restoration.

  3. #3

    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom? Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations? Perhaps you don't believe in the Millennium at all? What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all? Thanks! My opinions are somewhat weak in this area.
    Those who rule and reign with the Son of man for 1,000 years fellowship with God Almighty in the flesh. The count "1,000" implies that fact.

    Many have reigned, some are reigning, and many will reign depending on the order/place in God they have attained. 1,000 years is not a literal count of calendar years.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Almost every thread is about this in some way now.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom? Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations? Perhaps you don't believe in the Millennium at all? What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all? Thanks! My opinions are somewhat weak in this area.
    The answer to this is a question. Has God changed, or been forced to change His original plan? What does the evidence show?

    The answer to the first question should be settled in everybody's mind once and for all. Is the Almighty subject to outside forces. Is He sovereign and all-powerful as He claims, or is He forced by the mechanisms of man or angel, to change His plan. In a number of places God makes the claim that His Councils cannot be thwarted. One of the best is the closing statement of the greatest and most fearsome king who ever lived, and who is designated as a Type of the coming Beast who rules the whole earth - Nebuchadnezzar. In all his power and majesty, this sovereign human monarch was clay in the hands of God, and after going through a seven year process of humiliation at the hand of Jehovah, he declares;

    34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
    (Daniel 4:34-35)

    It should be settled in the minds of all men who read the Bible that God cannot be moved by either heavenly or earthly forces. Therefore we examine God's plan with man in the sure knowledge that it will come to pass. In Genesis 1:26-28 it is;

    26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."


    I have made bold the pertinent phrase. The "subdueing and ruling" part could, by some, be construed as carried out from heaven. After all, the previous governor of the earth was an angel, and the powers and principalities he commands are in heaven. Strong's Dictionary advises that the word "epouranios" means, "above the sky, celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high" . It is translated 20 times variously as, "heavenly" 16 times, "celestial" 2 times, "in heaven" once, and in our verse Ephesians 6:12 as "high" just this once. But the evidence will show that the new governor of the earth - mankind, is (1) made of the earth, is (2) fed by the earth, is (3) to fill and/or replenish the earth, and (4) be made into a City and Abode of God on a "renewed earth". And the newly created man was placed in a Garden ON EARTH to accomplish God's purposes. Even the Chiefest of men - Jesus, Son of man, will return to earth and physically rule it from a physical city - Jerusalem.

    In ...
    1. Genesis 1:28 man's God given job is to replenish the earth by being fruitful
    2. God renews this command in Genesis 9:1 after the Great Flood, and verse 7 leaves no doubt. "And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."
    3. Abraham, the man called out for God's purpose, is promised a piece of earth with borders. Genesis 17:8 says it will be an "everlasting possession" to dwell in
    4. Psalm 37:29 says that, "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."
    5. Psalm 132:14 in context of His Covenant with David, God says of Zion, a hill of Jerusalem, "This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it."
    6. Ezekiel 37:24-26, the Chapter on Israel's restoration, says that God's Sactuary, resurrected David and All Israel will dwell in their Land "for ever".
    7. Ezekiel 43:7 says that our Lord Jesus, Emmanuel, has chosen Jerusalem for, "... the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever"
    8. The system of government on earth until Egypt became a world power and central government came in, was one king per city or region (Gen.14:1-2)
    9. Zechariah 14:16 says that the nations, "... shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." That is, Jesus will dwell in Jerusalem during the Millennium
    10. To the Church the Promises to Abraham are given (Gal.3:29). Romans 4:13 says this is the whole earth.
    11. To the meek is the earth given for a possession (Ps.37:11; Matt.5:5)
    12. Our Lord Jesus will return to earth at the end of this age. There is no evidence of Him returning to heaven
    13. The Raptured saints will return to earth with the Lord at His Second Coming. There is no evidence of them ever going anywhere else after that
    14. Luke 19:17-19 says that the Lord will appoint kingship over cities to faithful and diligent servants AFTER HIS RETURN (v.15)
    15. Revelation 2:26-27 says that the Overcoming Christians will have power over the nations. The nations are on earth
    16. Revelation 3:9 promises that Jesus will, "... make them of the synagogue of Satan, ... to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." These imposters are on earth and that means that the Overcomers "feet" will be on earth

    An Objection explained
    Some will object that the Promises to Abraham were not actually for the earth. They quote Hebrews 11:13-16;

    13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."


    The word "heavenly" can mean both (1) "in heaven", and (2) "heavenly in nature". In verse 16, according to the context, it would not be "in heaven" because;
    • the word "country" means, "one's fatherland, native country, of one's own town," as seen in it rendering in Matthew 13:54, 57; Mark 6:1, 4; Luke 4:23, 24 and John 4:44. Men's "Fatherland", or the "town" where we proceed from, is earth.
    • the word "heavenly" describes the ORIGIN of the future "country". It is "heavenly" in nature and content. When our Lord prays for the Kingdom of Heaven "to come" in Matthew 6:10 it is "Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The heavenly rule must come to earth.
    • The rebirth of men is from "above" (Jn.3:3) and Christians are of the "heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1) making them men on earth but with a heavenly origin and nature.
    • The Holy Spirit could have been specific by saying in Hebrews 11:16, "But now they desire a better country, that is, IN HEAVEN", but He did not. He alluded to its NATURE - heavenly
    • The word "country" in verse 14 is in OPPOSITION to the "country" of verse 15. That "country" was Egypt, a power ON EARTH that ruled the earth by (1) worship of the heavenly host, and (2) through Satan, a heavenly being.

    Finally, there is not a single verse in the Bible that openly, plainly and/or alludes to the fact that our Lord Jesus and the Overcoming Christians will rule from heaven. Much more, the abundant evidence above shows that they will POSSESS, SUBDUE, RULE and ENJOY the earth ON SITE.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom? Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations? Perhaps you don't believe in the Millennium at all? What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all? Thanks! My opinions are somewhat weak in this area.
    I agree with ForHisGlory. The Millennium Kingdom will be all the earth and those faithful believers, who endure to the end, [of the events before Jesus Returns] will be His priests and worthy to rule over cities and nations. Revelation 5:10

    Quote: Walls; Finally, there is not a single verse in the Bible that openly, plainly and/or alludes to the fact that our Lord Jesus and the Overcoming Christians will rule from heaven. Much more, the abundant evidence above shows that they will POSSESS, SUBDUE, RULE and ENJOY the earth ON SITE. Quote: Walls.
    Correct. Only after the Millennium, will God come down to the earth, therefore heaven will be on earth; like it was in the garden of Eden.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Johosophat View Post
    Almost every thread is about this in some way now.
    Maybe we're getting close to the time?

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The answer to this is a question. Has God changed, or been forced to change His original plan? What does the evidence show?

    The answer to the first question should be settled in everybody's mind once and for all. Is the Almighty subject to outside forces. Is He sovereign and all-powerful as He claims, or is He forced by the mechanisms of man or angel, to change His plan. In a number of places God makes the claim that His Councils cannot be thwarted. One of the best is the closing statement of the greatest and most fearsome king who ever lived, and who is designated as a Type of the coming Beast who rules the whole earth - Nebuchadnezzar. In all his power and majesty, this sovereign human monarch was clay in the hands of God, and after going through a seven year process of humiliation at the hand of Jehovah, he declares;

    34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
    (Daniel 4:34-35)

    It should be settled in the minds of all men who read the Bible that God cannot be moved by either heavenly or earthly forces. Therefore we examine God's plan with man in the sure knowledge that it will come to pass. In Genesis 1:26-28 it is;

    26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."


    I have made bold the pertinent phrase. The "subdueing and ruling" part could, by some, be construed as carried out from heaven. After all, the previous governor of the earth was an angel, and the powers and principalities he commands are in heaven. Strong's Dictionary advises that the word "epouranios" means, "above the sky, celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high" . It is translated 20 times variously as, "heavenly" 16 times, "celestial" 2 times, "in heaven" once, and in our verse Ephesians 6:12 as "high" just this once. But the evidence will show that the new governor of the earth - mankind, is (1) made of the earth, is (2) fed by the earth, is (3) to fill and/or replenish the earth, and (4) be made into a City and Abode of God on a "renewed earth". And the newly created man was placed in a Garden ON EARTH to accomplish God's purposes. Even the Chiefest of men - Jesus, Son of man, will return to earth and physically rule it from a physical city - Jerusalem.

    In ...
    1. Genesis 1:28 man's God given job is to replenish the earth by being fruitful
    2. God renews this command in Genesis 9:1 after the Great Flood, and verse 7 leaves no doubt. "And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."
    3. Abraham, the man called out for God's purpose, is promised a piece of earth with borders. Genesis 17:8 says it will be an "everlasting possession" to dwell in
    4. Psalm 37:29 says that, "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."
    5. Psalm 132:14 in context of His Covenant with David, God says of Zion, a hill of Jerusalem, "This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it."
    6. Ezekiel 37:24-26, the Chapter on Israel's restoration, says that God's Sactuary, resurrected David and All Israel will dwell in their Land "for ever".
    7. Ezekiel 43:7 says that our Lord Jesus, Emmanuel, has chosen Jerusalem for, "... the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever"
    8. The system of government on earth until Egypt became a world power and central government came in, was one king per city or region (Gen.14:1-2)
    9. Zechariah 14:16 says that the nations, "... shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." That is, Jesus will dwell in Jerusalem during the Millennium
    10. To the Church the Promises to Abraham are given (Gal.3:29). Romans 4:13 says this is the whole earth.
    11. To the meek is the earth given for a possession (Ps.37:11; Matt.5:5)
    12. Our Lord Jesus will return to earth at the end of this age. There is no evidence of Him returning to heaven
    13. The Raptured saints will return to earth with the Lord at His Second Coming. There is no evidence of them ever going anywhere else after that
    14. Luke 19:17-19 says that the Lord will appoint kingship over cities to faithful and diligent servants AFTER HIS RETURN (v.15)
    15. Revelation 2:26-27 says that the Overcoming Christians will have power over the nations. The nations are on earth
    16. Revelation 3:9 promises that Jesus will, "... make them of the synagogue of Satan, ... to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." These imposters are on earth and that means that the Overcomers "feet" will be on earth

    An Objection explained
    Some will object that the Promises to Abraham were not actually for the earth. They quote Hebrews 11:13-16;

    13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."


    The word "heavenly" can mean both (1) "in heaven", and (2) "heavenly in nature". In verse 16, according to the context, it would not be "in heaven" because;
    • the word "country" means, "one's fatherland, native country, of one's own town," as seen in it rendering in Matthew 13:54, 57; Mark 6:1, 4; Luke 4:23, 24 and John 4:44. Men's "Fatherland", or the "town" where we proceed from, is earth.
    • the word "heavenly" describes the ORIGIN of the future "country". It is "heavenly" in nature and content. When our Lord prays for the Kingdom of Heaven "to come" in Matthew 6:10 it is "Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The heavenly rule must come to earth.
    • The rebirth of men is from "above" (Jn.3:3) and Christians are of the "heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1) making them men on earth but with a heavenly origin and nature.
    • The Holy Spirit could have been specific by saying in Hebrews 11:16, "But now they desire a better country, that is, IN HEAVEN", but He did not. He alluded to its NATURE - heavenly
    • The word "country" in verse 14 is in OPPOSITION to the "country" of verse 15. That "country" was Egypt, a power ON EARTH that ruled the earth by (1) worship of the heavenly host, and (2) through Satan, a heavenly being.

    Finally, there is not a single verse in the Bible that openly, plainly and/or alludes to the fact that our Lord Jesus and the Overcoming Christians will rule from heaven. Much more, the abundant evidence above shows that they will POSSESS, SUBDUE, RULE and ENJOY the earth ON SITE.
    Very well written, with lots of info. But what do you mean by an angel ruled the earth? Are you talking about before man was created, or after man capitulated to Satan?

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I agree with ForHisGlory. The Millennium Kingdom will be all the earth and those faithful believers, who endure to the end, [of the events before Jesus Returns] will be His priests and worthy to rule over cities and nations. Revelation 5:10

    Quote: Walls; Finally, there is not a single verse in the Bible that openly, plainly and/or alludes to the fact that our Lord Jesus and the Overcoming Christians will rule from heaven. Much more, the abundant evidence above shows that they will POSSESS, SUBDUE, RULE and ENJOY the earth ON SITE. Quote: Walls.
    Correct. Only after the Millennium, will God come down to the earth, therefore heaven will be on earth; like it was in the garden of Eden.
    If you and Glory both believe the New Jerusalem descends from heaven at the 2nd Advent, what will that look like? The New Jerusalem encompasses the entire area of the Middle East and reaches up to space. Is that a practical development on the earth, or is this symbolic? Also, are there pagan nations on earth that exist at the same time paradise conditions exist on earth like the Garden of Eden?

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If you and Glory both believe the New Jerusalem descends from heaven at the 2nd Advent, what will that look like? The New Jerusalem encompasses the entire area of the Middle East and reaches up to space. Is that a practical development on the earth, or is this symbolic? Also, are there pagan nations on earth that exist at the same time paradise conditions exist on earth like the Garden of Eden?
    The New Heavens and the New Earth, incl Jerusalem, does not come down until after the Millennium.

    I believe the prophesies that describe things which can literally happen, will literally happen.
    The New Jerusalem is described in great detail in Revelation 21. The precious stones, for example: are not allegorical or metaphors for something else.

    From what we read in Revelation22:15 and Zechariah 14:16, there will be people who are not citizens of the holy City.

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Very well written, with lots of info. But what do you mean by an angel ruled the earth? Are you talking about before man was created, or after man capitulated to Satan?
    I am talking about before man was created. There are two passages that shed some light on Satan's activities before man came onto the scene. They are Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:12-19. In these passages, we see God addressing the power behind two kings - Satan, and information is given about Satan that has not happened in man's history. In;
    • Ezekiel 28:12-13 and 15 we see that. like all things, God created Lucifer perfect, beautiful, with musical instruments in his body, bedecked with the precious stines that make up God's House, and wise in all things
    • Ezekiel 28:14 and 16 we learn that he was the "Covering Cherub". This is explained by the two Cherubim covering the Ark of the Covenant which allude to the fact that he was the "go-between" a Holy God and the rest of His creation. We can see that he was greater than the other angels because Michael, Israel's angel, had to respect him (Jude 1:9)
    • Isaiah 14:13 we see that he had a throne - meaning that he was a king
    • Isaiah 14:12 he had power over the nations. Which nations is subject to discussion but in the following verses what he did to them has never happened since Adam
    • Isaiah 12:16-17 he made the (1) earth to tremble, (2) shook kingdoms, (3) made the world a wilderness, (4) destroyed the cities of it, and (5) had prisoners that were not released. While the first two could have taken place after Adam although there is no record of it, the rest has never happened in human or Biblical history except it certainly could have happened before Genesis 1:2. In Genesis 1:2 the literal Hebrew is; "But the earth BECAME a chaos and was empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." In Isaiah 45:18, concerning the creation, we see that it was made in good order. It reads, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." The word "vain" is the same word as is used in Genesis 1:2 for "chaos", or, in the KJV, "without form". So if Lucifer was Covering Cherub, was magnificent in all ways, had a throne, and had power over the earth, its cities, the nations and their prisoners, and was able to cause unimaginable chaos, it is reasonable to assume that he was the Governor of earth before the chaos of Genesis 1.2 occurred.

    Added to this, in;
    1. John 12:31, 14:30 and 16:11 our Lord Jesus Himself calls Lucifer "the prince of this world". He could not have had this title simply by deceiving Adam
    2. In Luke 4:6 our Lord Jesus did not refute Satan's claims. They were (1) that he had "All this power", (2) that he was in the position to "give them and their glory" to Jesus, (3) that they were, "... delivered unto me", and (4) that he had the power to give them and their glory to whomsoever he wanted to.
    3. In Genesis 1:26-28 one of man's duties was to "subdue". To subdue implies that there is an opponent, who has power and lays claim to something, but is to be put in subjection

    It seems to me to be clear, considering all this evidence, that Lucifer was once governor of this earth. His ambitions led to "violence" and ultimately chaos and the destruction in his domain - the earth. He was supposed to be replaced by Adam and his seed, but through deception caused Adam to become impotent to overcome his authority. Since God has decreed that the earth is to be ruled by mankind, Satan must now exercise his "power" and "position" through men - which is the history of the Bible up until he met our Lord Jesus. But since our Lord Jesus is largely rejected, and must take time to choose out, call out, and train a new people for rulership - the Church, the Gentiles have a "time" apportioned to rule this earth in subservience to the provocations of Lucifer. This ends when the "times of the Gentiles are full" (Lk.21:24).

    Satan is defeated progressively by a Man from;
    • our Lord's birth - the "Seed of the woman" has arrived to replace Satan
    • our Lord's survival under Herod - Satan was unable to kill Him to
    • our Lord's temptation - Satan no power of deception over Jesus to
    • our Lord's life under Law - Satan cannot provoke Jesus to break it to
    • our Lord's agony in Gethsemane - Satan cannot get Jesus to refuse His Father's will even though He was innocent to
    • our Lord's death - Satan's power to use death is annulled because "sin" (singular) is put away (Rom.6:23; Heb.2:14) to
    • our Lord's resurrection - the ownership of the keys to Hades changes to
    • our Lord's military victory at Armageddon to
    • our Lord imprisoning Satan for 1,000 years in an abyss to
    • our Lord's Kingdom withstanding Satan's renewed attempt to stir the nations led by Gog and Magog against His Citadel - Jerusalem to
    • our Lord casting Satan into the Lake of Fire forever

    Note that in that Satan was able to provoke a rebellion after the 1,000 years of Christ's rule, he was not completely "subdued" until then. It is only when he is completely subdued, and all men are resurrected, that our Lord hands over the Kingdom to God (1st Cor.15:24).

  12. #12

    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The answer to this is a question. Has God changed, or been forced to change His original plan? What does the evidence show?

    The answer to the first question should be settled in everybody's mind once and for all. Is the Almighty subject to outside forces. Is He sovereign and all-powerful as He claims, or is He forced by the mechanisms of man or angel, to change His plan. In a number of places God makes the claim that His Councils cannot be thwarted. One of the best is the closing statement of the greatest and most fearsome king who ever lived, and who is designated as a Type of the coming Beast who rules the whole earth - Nebuchadnezzar. In all his power and majesty, this sovereign human monarch was clay in the hands of God, and after going through a seven year process of humiliation at the hand of Jehovah, he declares;

    34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
    (Daniel 4:34-35)
    Nebuchadnezzar has/had no such designation. The only King who will ever rule over the earth is the Son of God (together with His brethren who become begotten sons). Nebuchadnezzar was never a type of the Son of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It should be settled in the minds of all men who read the Bible that God cannot be moved by either heavenly or earthly forces. Therefore we examine God's plan with man in the sure knowledge that it will come to pass. In Genesis 1:26-28 it is;

    26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."


    I have made bold the pertinent phrase. The "subdueing and ruling" part could, by some, be construed as carried out from heaven. After all, the previous governor of the earth was an angel, and the powers and principalities he commands are in heaven. Strong's Dictionary advises that the word "epouranios" means, "above the sky, celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high" . It is translated 20 times variously as, "heavenly" 16 times, "celestial" 2 times, "in heaven" once, and in our verse Ephesians 6:12 as "high" just this once. But the evidence will show that the new governor of the earth - mankind, is (1) made of the earth, is (2) fed by the earth, is (3) to fill and/or replenish the earth, and (4) be made into a City and Abode of God on a "renewed earth". And the newly created man was placed in a Garden ON EARTH to accomplish God's purposes. Even the Chiefest of men - Jesus, Son of man, will return to earth and physically rule it from a physical city - Jerusalem.
    .
    .
    The word "heavenly" can mean both (1) "in heaven", and (2) "heavenly in nature". In verse 16, according to the context, it would not be "in heaven" because;
    .
    .
    Finally, there is not a single verse in the Bible that openly, plainly and/or alludes to the fact that our Lord Jesus and the Overcoming Christians will rule from heaven. Much more, the abundant evidence above shows that they will POSSESS, SUBDUE, RULE and ENJOY the earth ON SITE.
    What and where do think heaven is?

    The Lord will reign, not rule In the 1,000 years that Rev. 20 writes about. It is good to know that He rules both in heaven and on the earth. How can you obtain the eternal life if He doesn't rule from heaven? The eternal life is as a result of the Son of God ruling in heaven, and brought to the earth by a type of God's love.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  13. #13
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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Nebuchadnezzar has/had no such designation. The only King who will ever rule over the earth is the Son of God (together with His brethren who become begotten sons). Nebuchadnezzar was never a type of the Son of God.
    Daniel 2:36-38:
    36 "This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
    37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
    38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    What and where do think heaven is?

    The Lord will reign, not rule In the 1,000 years that Rev. 20 writes about. It is good to know that He rules both in heaven and on the earth. How can you obtain the eternal life if He doesn't rule from heaven?
    God the Father reigns from heaven. Heaven is His throne (Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34, 23:22; Acts 7:49). But our Lord Jesus, Son of man, Son of David and King of the Jews, and ruler of the whole earth, will live in Jerusalem. Jeremiah 3:17 tells us about the time when Judah and Israel are united again and Israel have been gathered together. "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    The eternal life is as a result of the Son of God ruling in heaven, and brought to the earth by a type of God's love.
    Eternal life is the RESULT of FAITH.
    John 3:15-16;
    15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    John 6:40; "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do you think the resurrected/glorified Church will reign during the Millennial Kingdom?
    Not as kings. I think more as judges. We will rule them by judging them according to the laws Christ determines as He sits on His throne in the temple in Jerusalem. We will judge them according to those laws and the laws of the nations that don’t contradict the laws of Christ.

    I think the nations will still select their leaders who will represent the people before Christ when they have to go up to Jerusalem (Zec 14:16-19).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you think they will be physical human beings reigning over mortal nations? Or do you think they will be like angels, invisibly reigning over the mortal nations?
    I know there are many who think that we will be reigning as “kings”. I have a different view on that. We will be physical. Actual flesh and bone. But we will not be kings.

    Is 60:11-12 and Zec. 14:16-19 reveal what will happen to those nations who do not go up to worship during this time. I can’t see us being kings of nations and not going up. Yet the scriptures say it Is a possibility.

    Rev 20:7-8 says that satan will deceive the nations after he is released. Yet I have trouble think how this would happen if we are the ruling kings of those nations. Unless he deceives us as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What do you think reigning on earth means, if there is a future reign of the Church at all?
    Reigning for us means judging the people. But only those of us who have proven we can do it here now will be given that task. So not all of us will “rule / judge”.

    I am of the opinion that there will be a multitude of jobs and tasks for us to do. What we end up doing will depend on our faithfulness here determined by what we are faithful in. Whereas we can be faithful in one area there may be another area we are not so much. That area of faithfulness will determine our position of responsibility during the MK.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: the Millennial reign of the Church

    Well stated Old Man. I find I agree with you.

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