Face Melting Guitar Solos and Zech. 14

[the rookie]

Elsewhere in these forums two astonishing claims were made about Zech. 14:

1. Though this passage is one of the main premil passages that is used to prove a millennial kingdom, it does not contain any details to back up such a claim.

2. This entire chapter was fulfilled in the past.

I'm interested in exploring those claims, and taking a closer look at this chapter:

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.

The context of this chapter is established here - the eschatological day of the Lord; which historically in the Hebrew understanding involved the day in which the Messiah would come to judge the nations that mistreated Israel (Obadiah 1:15; Joel 3:14) and establish His kingdom (Isa. 2:1-22)
(conversely, for a passage that some INSIST was fulfilled in the past, Isa. 2:10-12 contain elements that are very similar to Rev. 6:15-16, which the very same system INSISTS is the 2nd Coming). Great trouble and shaking would also come to Israel in context to this future day (Isa. 13:6-9; Amos 5:18-20). Zechariah is describing the nature of the trouble that will come to Israel in this day as the nation is almost defeated in this recapitulation of the Zech. 12-13 events.

Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zech. 12:1-4 describes the coming siege of Jerusalem as "all the nations of the earth" are gathered against the city, drunk (a stupefied maddness) in their fury, looking to "heave the city away". This passage gives more detail to what will actually take place as the nations come against the city. Josephus did not record these kinds of details taking place in his account of the Roman seige of 70 AD at the hands of Titus; nor did this seige involve "all the nations of the earth." It surely involved many nations - but not all.

Zech. 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.

Again, in this recapitulation, Zech. 12 gave a description of what this would look like - the enemy horses would be struck with blindness and the riders with maddness; later in that passage we are shown the inhabitants of Jerusalem being supernaturally empowered by the Lord to defend themselves against the seige (12:8). One could also put Isa. 63:1-6 here, as the Lord Himself is seen striding towards Jerusalem "mighty to save" as all His robes are covered in blood - it is this passage that John is alluding to in Rev. 19:11-16. as He is moving to "tread the winepress of the nations", which also alludes to Joel 3:13 and Rev. 14:18-20.

Zech. 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

The key feature of this passage (one that you would be hard-pressed to find a past fulfillment of) to me is not the splitting of the Mt. of Olives by Jesus (which many have assumed to be His first act when He lands on the earth - but it does not say that He "lands" on the Mt. of Olives - just that He will stand on it. I think that there are many other passages in the OT that provide a framework for many other events that take place at His Second Coming that precede this one, as I have listed on another thread). The key feature is not that He splits the mountain - but that He does it so that those in Jerusalem might escape the seige! They flee the city through the newly made valley and escape the armies gathered against them before the Lord goes to trample the nations.

it is difficult for me to find any NT or past fulfillment for these passages, and I have barely scratched the surface of the passage. I haven't even come to the face-melting part yet.

[the rookie]

Zech. 14:6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
Zech. 14:7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

The sixth bowl (total darkness) has struck the Antichrist kingdom (Rev. 16:10-11); and the conditions Amos describes are in effect here as well (Amos 5:18-20); the light, as the end of the passage describes, that will break through the veil of supernatural darkness will be the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8) with the armies of heaven (Rev. 19:14) and the angelic host that follow Him, as Jesus Himself described (Matt. 24:27-31).

I do not think that the intensity of the fifth bowl conditions continue into the sixth bowl and beyond (or else the armies could not gather), but I believe that there is a sequence to darkness and light and these moments will still involved "diminished light" making it tough to distinguish between day and night.

I also believe that this final catastrophic battle will take place in one day - though I think that the seventh bowl is alluding to the Joshua passage of an elongated day (Rev. 16:17-21; Josh. 10:11-14) in which the Lord tramples the winepress of the nations that came against Jerusalem.

Zech. 14:8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

I think that these "living waters" are the same waters in Isaiah that bring life to the desert places (Isa. 35:1-10) that flow from Jerusalem - specifically from the much disputed millennial temple in Ezekiel (Eze. 47:1-12) that is the "fountain" opened up in Jerusalem (Zech. 13:1) and the very River of Ps. 46:4 and Rev. 22:1-2 that flows from the very throne of God Himself, in the New Jerusalem - from paradise to the millennial earth and from there to the surrounding desert places to the seas on each side, bringing life where it flows.

Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

And of course, I see this as the passage that establishes the framework for the "times of the restoration of all things" (Acts 3:21) in which the Lord restores the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6) and establishes His kingdom over the whole earth.

[the rookie]

Zech. 14:10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

The actual land is reformatted around Jerusalem and restructured with details that we have not seen fulfilled in history...

Zech. 14:11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Along with this passage that follows - what time frame would this promise be describing? The complete safety of Jerusalem does not seem to be a conditional promise at all (I'm referencing the disputes on other threads in this forum) but a prophetic reality that accompanies the victory of the Lord over the surrounding nations and the establishment of His kingdom in Jerusalem - the inhabitants in His rule there enjoy a new thing that they have never known - true peace from conflict and strife over their land.

Zech. 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zech. 14:13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

Zechariah here comes again to a recapitulation of that cataclysmic battle over Jerusalem and that great seige he describes repeatedly. Here we come to our "face melting guitar solo", in which the gruesome details of the Lord's victory are described. Zech. 12:1-4 is given more detail; this passage also seems to be alluding to the events of 2 Chron. 20 and the victory of Jehoshophat over the multitudes that came against them (who were driven to madness by the Lord through the worship of the singers as the Lord won the victory for them) as well as Rev. 19:21 - the sword of His mouth strikes them, not the sword in His hand. I wonder if the Lord Himself will sing as well - His song (and the song of those who are with Him) driving His enemies to madness (Zeph. 3:14-17). Again - this passage is describing the exact events of 2 Chron. 20 - which makes me wonder whether that passage was a prophetic foreshadowing, or type, of the manner in which the Lord would win His victory.

When was this fulfilled in any other manner?

[the rookie]

Zech. 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
Zech. 14:15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

Again, this scenario is shockingly similar to the 2 Chron. 20 one - it took them three days to gather the spoil of the nations after that battle. This time it will take seven years to gather the spoil (Eze. 39:9) and seven months to bury the dead (Eze. 39:12) which is how Israel will win fame among the nations that are left (or "gain reknown in the day that I am glorified" - Eze. 39:13). Isaiah also spoke of the spoils of victory (Isa. 9:3-5).

The phrases are difficult for me to understand in light of a past fulfillment. There would have to be some heavy symbolism to move the details into some other context. The Eze. 39 passage makes it difficult to reconcile a total annihilation at His coming (burying the dead).

[the rookie]

That's it for my laptop battery - i'll finish in the morning....

can't wait for the comments....?

[David Taylor]

That's it for my laptop battery - i'll finish in the morning....

can't wait for the comments....?

That's the beauty of AC cords, and those AC/DC car adaptors....but don't get stuck out of town without one. I had to buy one in Kissimmee, FL a few years ago, and they (over)charged me nearly $100 for one....just because they knew I was in a bind and needed one. (I run GPS software on mine, so I needed it charged to know where I was going).

As far as commenting on Zechariah 14, you sure seem to have it all layed out very well.

I think I'll consider converting back to Premillennialism.

..........

Went back and re-read several of the specific NT 2nd Coming passages.

There is noone left from the nations who survivie the 2nd Coming, so I can't allow Zechariah 14 to be interpretted in a manner that creates conflict with the NT passages that are undeniably 2nd Coming....I guess Zechariah had something else in mind, and I most forgoe Premillennialism again. (And I was looking so forward to re-embracing the Premill expecation of animal sacrifices for sin offerings and required circumcision of the flesh that Ezekiel 40-48 require in the Premill system).

BTW,
Rookie, can you be specific on which parts of Zechariah 14 that you find 100% no way possible, for them to have any 1st Century or NT era fulfillment? (I realize you think the entire shebang is 2nd Coming, but surely there are some parts of the chapter you 'could' find 1st century fulfillment....my question is more focused on what parts you find have no possible fulfillment then)....maybe I could spend some time researching those parts.

[Hawk]

Rookie,

Great post.

Zechariah uses ridiculously strong language, so finding a total fulfillment of much of this chapter at the first coming would be like trying to fit a buff baseball player into a 3 year old's spiderman costume! Of course, it would probably fit symbolically, if you assume he was talking about a big toe or something...

On a more serious note, this chapter is really frightening. The day of the Lord surely will be like none other in history...

I am curious what Paul thinks about what you've laid out. He always has something great to throw into discussions like this that make me ask for more understanding from the Lord!

Hawk

[David Taylor]

Hawk,
Do you see any verses or phrases described in Zechariah 14's 'ridiculously strong language' that are applicable to the 1st advent or NT era?
(sounds like ole Zech sure was trying to emphasis something very important that was coming down the pike....).

[Hawk]

Hawk,
Do you see any verses or phrases described in Zechariah 14's 'ridiculously strong language' that are applicable to the 1st advent or NT era?
(sounds like ole Zech sure was trying to emphasis something very important that was coming down the pike....).

Indeed...

I can't think of any off the top of my head... I haven't looked a ton at Zech. 14, but I will keep searching to see if I can find any fulfillments of any phrase whatsoever...

Would love to hear your thoughts once you've done some searching too!

Hawk

[David Taylor]

Indeed...

I can't think of any off the top of my head... I haven't looked a ton at Zech. 14, but I will keep searching to see if I can find any fulfillments of any phrase whatsoever...

Would love to hear your thoughts once you've done some searching too!

Hawk

Sure Hawk, I think it would be good if we could all study that chapter more closely. Rookie has gotten us started, and there are many commentable things.

I actually put together an analysis of Zechariah 14's fulfillment from a 1st century-NT Era-Endtime perspective (instead of solely Endtime) back in April.

Here are the notes from it, if you are interested.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...7&postcount=73

For me particularly, in trying to gain personal edification and understanding from that chapter, I would like to have brought forward the parts that explicitly could not be fulfilled in the 1st century or NT era; and look and study those parts. (but remember, they can't shouldn't be presented if they create conflict with the NT....the OT never conflicts with the NT; it is our understanding that creates problems)....they always harmonize when received in their given intent and context.

[Hawk]

Sure Hawk, I think it would be good if we could all study that chapter more closely. Rookie has gotten us started, and there are many commentable things.

I actually put together an analysis of Zechariah 14's fulfillment from a 1st century-NT Era-Endtime perspective (instead of solely Endtime) back in April.

Here are the notes from it, if you are interested.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...7&postcount=73

For me particularly, in trying to gain personal edification and understanding from that chapter, I would like to have brought forward the parts that explicitly could not be fulfilled in the 1st century or NT era; and look and study those parts. (but remember, they can't shouldn't be presented if they create conflict with the NT....the OT never conflicts with the NT; it is our understanding that creates problems)....they always harmonize when received in their given intent and context.

Hey David,

Yeah let's study this thing out together. It'll be helpful for all of us!

I read through your notes from your previous post. For fun, you should repost that to this thread with comments like rookie did on each one on how you came to that conclusion. Then we could talk about it all together. But I'll leave that up to you...

Here are some initial thoughts from your notes, without getting into a lot of detail...

Regarding the Mount of Olives splitting in two - that's a toughie for the NT-era, unless it is somehow spiritualized. But even in the NT there really aren't any references to anything happening to the mount directly, only geographical "the disciples went to" or "Jesus came from" references to be able to spiritualize from.

I looked them up: Matt. 21:1; 24:3; 26:30; Mark 11:1; 13:3; 14:26; Luke 19:37; 22:39; John 8:1, and then also Luke 19:29; 21:37.

Anyways, let's keep going. This should be a good discussion...

Hawk

[Matthehitmanhart]

The part of Zechariah 14 that I find interesting right now (in terms of it being fulfilled in the future) is in verse 9 where it says that "the Lord (Jesus) shall be King over all the earth in that Day" in the future tense.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Went back and re-read several of the specific NT 2nd Coming passages.

There is noone left from the nations who survivie the 2nd Coming, so I can't allow Zechariah 14 to be interpretted in a manner that creates conflict with the NT passages that are undeniably 2nd Coming....I guess Zechariah had something else in mind, and I most forgoe Premillennialism again. (And I was looking so forward to re-embracing the Premill expecation of animal sacrifices for sin offerings and required circumcision of the flesh that Ezekiel 40-48 require in the Premill system).

To be fair, none of those NT passages, including 2 Thess 1:6-9, say clearly that all those who are unsaved at the SC will be destroyed at the SC; and since Revelation 20, a NT passage, has unresurrected people inhabiting a future Kingdom in which Christ reigns with the saints with sin still present, I think there's NT precedent to interpret Zech 14 the way rookie did. I know, of course, you disagree, so perhaps you could post on the thread I started on Revelation 20 last night.

Thanks,
Hitman

[David Taylor]

Face Melting Guitar Solos and Zech. 14

Eddie Van Halen, a pretty fair hand at Guitar Solos, said that the best buitar player he knew, was Roy Clark.

Roy Clark playing Malaguena will melt your face.

Roy Clark or Chet Atkins playing 4 different songs at the same time on one aucustic guitar will also melt your face.

Any solo by Billy Sheehan or John Entwhistle which involves all 10 fingers will melt your face.

Whomever it was (Steve Vai maybe?) that Ralph Macchio was lip-synching to (finger-synching?) in the Cross-roads movie, at the beginning at Juliard School where he was playing for his professor, and switched from classical Mozart to Robert Johnson Mississippi-delta slide blues will melt your face, stir it around, and repaint it back on your skull.

[Hawk]

Eddie Van Halen, a pretty fair hand at Guitar Solos, said that the best buitar player he knew, was Roy Clark.

Roy Clark playing Malaguena will melt your face.

Roy Clark or Chet Atkins playing 4 different songs at the same time on one aucustic guitar will also melt your face.

Any solo by Billy Sheehan or John Entwhistle which involves all 10 fingers will melt your face.

Whomever it was (Steve Vai maybe?) that Ralph Macchio was lip-synching to (finger-synching?) in the Cross-roads movie, at the beginning at Juliard School where he was playing for his professor, and switched from classical Mozart to Robert Johnson Mississippi-delta slide blues will melt your face, stir it around, and repaint it back on your skull.

Chalk up Eric Johnson on the face melters list too.

Hawk