Belief a CHOICE?

[rstrats]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

[lbeaty1981]

In my case, it wasn't an instantaneous change. It actually occurred over several years. Various events in my life, the teachings of others, coupled with my own research gradually helped me to understand that there was more out there than what I originally thought. Even after I came to the conclusion that God existed, and that Jesus died for our sins, it took me several months to finally accept His sacrifice and allow God into my life. What can I say? I've always been a stubborn one...

[rstrats]

lbeaty1981,


re: “In my case, it wasn't an instantaneous change.”


It had to be. You can’t believe that something isn’t true AND at the same time believe that it is. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind is changed to the other. I’m trying to learn the technique for doing that.

[hopen-praying]

Just recently, I mean like this week, the LORD has been dealing with me in the area of love and compassion for others.

While He was convicting me to have compassion (in a certain instance) I kept saying "NO, (in my heart and my actions) that person is steeped in sin and they say they are christian...I'm not suppose to have anything to do with that person, the bible says..." and all kinds of justifications. BUT, the Spirit of GOD would not let me rest. I was fit to be tied and full of strife within. In my pride, I was making a choice to not do something that I should have been doing.

So, I did what I normally do when there is no peace within, draw closer to the LORD, listen to bible studies and sermons (online and on the radio) and search the scriptures until....

1 John 4:7-21 helped me see somethings I was ignoring,
then James 1:22-27 sealed it in my heart,
and finally, from Numbers 20 on where Moses misrepresents GOD in his display of anger toward the people and the consequences for Moses for that, put the fear of GOD in me.

It's still a work in progress, but now I'm making a choice to have compassion which will allow me the opportunity to share the truths of God and His love. Someone, can't remember who said "People don't care what you know until they know that you care!"

[Walstib]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

At some point people make conclusions about received information and forms their "beliefs". Sitting down with a list and choosing what you believe is not the way things go deep down into a person. I would say that after deciding on evidence and making conclusions a belief comes from this and is a result instead of an effort. I don't see it is a last moment instantaneous thing.

True faith is not blind faith. Some people may do this sort of thing where they instantaneously take something in to be true. I see this is more of a personal brainwashing if they are not making sure of the foundation of the concept first. This is a big thing that leads to false beliefs/teachings and people following cults. People who convince themselves they are part of something and fall away quickly rather than have no choice but to change there belief and live differently because of the evidence they know to be true.

One of the names of Jesus in the Chief Cornerstone. This in the context of a foundation. All beliefs that are going to be true are based on Him. The foundation laid first , blocks like... He died for our sin, He loves us, He was resurrected... if the belief does not fit on top of those blocks it does not belong.

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little(Isa 28:9-13 KJV)

To take your example about becoming a more compassionate person. To be able to believe that you can be. The foundation is needed first before you try fitting in that window, the wall is not even built yet. Personally for me it is like a progression... I believe that Jesus is Lord... Knowing He is Lord He is able to empower me to change... Without Jesus I cannot "be good"... I know that the Lord will answer prayer... If ask Him to help me be more compassionate He can do this... He does things in His time... I believe I can be a more compassionate person. I left out many steps there but I hope you get the meaning.

Coming to believe that Jesus is Lord is the same kind of way. I would think as you say to be seeking you have a bunch of evidence in you building. Things you are becoming convicted of that lead towards Him. Asking God to provide you some more evidence does not hurt. It took me a long time before I got to the point of asking Him but I can say things defiantly sped up from there. I never figured out how to make the "leap of faith" It was not long before I could not help but believe.

Joe

[rstrats]

Walstib,


re: “I don't see it is a last moment instantaneous thing.”


As I mentioned previously, it has to be. You can’t believe and not believe at the same time.


re: “It was not long before I could not help but believe.”


So where does the conscious CHOICE come in, insofar as the engendering of the belief itself is concerned? You’re saying that you had no choice; that you had to believe.

[Walstib]

lbeaty1981,
It had to be. You can’t believe that something isn’t true AND at the same time believe that it is. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind is changed to the other. I’m trying to learn the technique for doing that.

In this context I do agree with you, there is an instant is does change. I think it could be weeks sometimes before I consciously know a change has occurred in me. I would also say I don't see Jesus has called us to change ourselves as much as let ourselves be changed by Him. Both need to be involved really. If we could of our own effort change ourselves into "good people" there would not be a need for Jesus.



Joe

[rstrats]

Yodas_Prodigy ,



Under the topic: " Why is logical debate, considered an attack on faith?", you wrote: "God supplies the faith to believe. " So when you have been given the faith, how do you use it to take the next step to engender a belief? What do you do that allows you to say, "OK, at this moment I believe - am convinced without a doubt - that a supreme being does not exist, but I am going to use the faith that I have just been given to go ahead and consciously CHOOSE to believe, and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - that one does exist?

[Walstib]

Walstib,
So where does the conscious CHOICE come in, insofar as the engendering of the belief itself is concerned? You’re saying that you had no choice; that you had to believe.

Right of the top I do believe in free choice in this. In the context of my explanation, a belief comes as a result of a number of other beliefs already held. The circular logic says "well what about those beliefs" I say it all started at conception and has been growing from then as well gather information and freely decide upon it.

The choice comes in when deciding if a bit of information is true or not. Making yourself chose something is just as off base as thinking God makes you chose something. I say it is a result and not an effort, there is effort in searching and weighing the evidence but not in causing a belief to exist.

So I am not saying I had no choice, more like there was no longer any other conclusion left. I do think that we need God to help us believe.

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.(Act 26:18 KJV)

There is a theme in scripture that reflects the opening of ones spiritual eyes so that they can see the truth. Without God doing this we are helpless to see it.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:2 KJV)

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3 KJV)

Faith is something given and measured out by the Lord. Again we can not come to Him on our own. The invitation is there for all but only some chose to show up for the party.

So I got a bit off track there.... The Lord and I together, through my choices to believe the truth and His will in my life, brought me to a point that I would have been seriously suppressing things to not believe that Jesus in Lord.

I hope that explains myself, always willing to try again.

Joe

[Realist1981]

Yodas_Prodigy ,



Under the topic: " Why is logical debate, considered an attack on faith?", you wrote: "God supplies the faith to believe. " So when you have been given the faith, how do you use it to take the next step to engender a belief? What do you do that allows you to say, "OK, at this moment I believe - am convinced without a doubt - that a supreme being does not exist, but I am going to use the faith that I have just been given to go ahead and consciously CHOOSE to believe, and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - that one does exist?

The problem is that you interchange Faith and Belief as if they are one and the same.

Stay with me on this (alot of Christians miss this point also)

Somebody told 2 people that their house and their entire neighborhood would be destroyed in one day in a Tornado. Both guys said they believe what they have heard and they went about their business.

Guy A immediately rented out a UHaul truck, got everything out of his house, took his family and rented a room at a Hotel. He also went around his neighborhood and spread the news around. He tried to take as many people as possible with him.

Guy B did nothing but said I believe it, went about his normal business, and didnt really take it really seriously.

The next day the Tornado came and took both of their houses and the entire neighborhood with it killing Guy B and his family and the rest of the people who were still in that neighborhood.

Do you see what faith is? Faith is acting on your belief. Although Guy B said he believed he didnt change anything, he didnt heed the warning, he didnt do nothing except say he believed. Guy A dropped everything, made arrangements, and grabbed everybody he could with him. How can Guy B say he believed if he had no faith . If he really believed he would have faith

You still with me?

So faith isn't "A Hope and a Prayer" like many are trying to make it seem. Noah believed what God said and he acted on that faith and he built the arc.

Now, when a person accepts Christ and his teachings it is said (by him) and believed that the comforter (Holy Spirit) indwells each and every one of us believers and our bodies are that of the Holy Temple because he dwells there. And our old nature dies and a new nature is born (of a spiritual nature). That's the basics of what it means of being "Born again". God takes over our lives and lives through us. It's not an instantanious transformation. We stumble now and again (some more than others) but God transforms us little by little into his image everyday.

So you see that is why the statement our faith isn't ours is correct. Meaning I cant take credit for my good works because it is God's will not mine. I live for him. My works cant get me into heaven only my belief in him.

Does that make any sense? If not I hope someone can explain that better than I can

Peace!!

[Walstib]

So faith isn't "A Hope and a Prayer" like many are trying to make it seem. Noah believed what God said and he acted on that faith and he built the arc.

Agreement here.

Faith does not exist without belief but belief can exist without faith.

All the faithful believe but not all that believe are faithful.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (Jam 2:19 KJV)

They are not the same, also individual beliefs before and after salvation are not the same as the "big one"... Believe God. The one that leads to faith.

Joe

[rstrats]

Walstib,

re: "So I am not saying I had no choice, more like there was no longer any other conclusion left."


When you realized that there was no longer any other conclusion left, what was the state of your mind with regard to a new belief?

[rstrats]

Realist1981,

re: “The problem is that you interchange Faith and Belief as if they are one and the same. “

I reread my post #8 a couple of times and I don’t see where I’ve equated faith and belief. I was merely asking Yodas_Prodigy a question with regard to one of his posts. I wonder if you might point out where I equated the two.


re: “Faith is acting on your belief...If he really believed he would have faith.”


Maybe he just didn’t care. Maybe for some twisted reason he thought his family and the neighborhood would somehow be better off dead.


But let’s say that he would have cared and that he would have been able to do something about the coming destruction. Then like you said, he most likely didn’t actually believe that a tornado was imminent, or if he did, he didn’t believe that there was anything to worry about. But I’m kinda missing your point with regard to a person having the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

[rstrats]

Walstib,


re: “Faith does not exist without belief but belief can exist without faith. “


How do you define “faith” as you are using it in this quote?

[moonglow]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

I always thought this was the strangest argument I ever heard. If you are shown two plus two equals four...you add it up for yourself...see its a fact...then you..or at least most people believe it don't they? you know its a fact if you jump up you will come back down...you believe it to the point if you saw someone on their roof about to jump saying they could fly, you would tell them no you will fall and probably hurt yourself. Why say that? Cause you believe it...

I believe if the weather man says the high is only going to be in the 30's today its going to be cold out, and further I believe if I put on warmer clothes I won't get so cold...this is a belief.

People read and see things on TV and on and news and tend to believe it simply because its in print or they hear it on the news without totally checking the facts out...I know people who believe those rag magazine stories are real...lol. People CAN and DO choose to believe all sorts of things all the time...some for the good and some not so good.

I would bet you have all sorts of beliefs that came about for some reason or another right? It would be interesting to list the things you believe and why...