Belief a CHOICE?

[rstrats]

moonglow,


re: “ I would bet you have all sorts of beliefs that came about for some reason or another right?”


That is correct. However, as I said, I did not obtain any of these beliefs by consciously CHOOSING to have them.


re: “People CAN and DO choose to believe all sorts of things all the time...”


And that is what I would like to learn. How do you consciously CHOOSE to do that - consciously CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[Walstib]

Walstib,
re: "So I am not saying I had no choice, more like there was no longer any other conclusion left."

When you realized that there was no longer any other conclusion left, what was the state of your mind with regard to a new belief?

Thanks for the interesting question.

I am trying to pin down what you mean by state of mind. This conclusion that God was real changed my outlook on everything and I mean everything. From we are just worm food to there not being a leaf that blows down the street without God's knowledge and direction. I am still learning new things about my state of mind then when I look back at it.

There was an emotional aspect of it where I was full of wonder and joy that this was true. This aspect being the least important. There was a part that wanted to tell the whole world what had happened and sincerely hoped that all could come to the same conclusion. There was a hard to explain sense of knowing instead of being torn up about the question. This giving a peace that was way past emotion. In a way there was an amazement that I actually did now have a change in belief. Thoughts of what was next.

As I had been coming to this conclusion I was piece be piece understanding how guilty I was in His sight, how the things I was doing and the path I was on were not in line with ultimate truth. In that change there was a relief in the knowledge of forgiveness for these transgressions by Jesus. A freedom I had never known possible.

Importantly there was a change in the thoughts in my head. I had spent many years beating myself up and feeling worthless. Like I had been arguing with myself. I know now that considering the spiritual, there is like the voice of your spirit, the voice of your flesh, and attacks from the enemy that can all come as thoughts. At the moment I was saved, believed and exercised my faith, however exactly that could be defined, there was a new gentle voice. That of the Holy Spirit. Comforting and counseling, giving the right ammunition to defeat the lies of the flesh and the enemy. Changing the tone of that internal battle from that of constant defeat to constant victory. Then I know this would have sounded crazy to me before I started searching. Seeing this battle to begin with was one of the biggest things that got me thinking there just may be a spiritual side to things. Seeking the answer to why I had no control of thought lead me straight to God.

I hope I have answered what you asked, let me know if I missed your point.

Joe

[Ron The Hebrew]

In one form or another this question comes up.

I personally can never remember a time in all of my life where I did not believe that there was a G-d.

My belief has never changed.

The thing that has changed for me is a more real picture as to who I am compared to that G-d and who I am amongst men.

Some call it faith but for me it has been experience. The things I once thought were true about G-d proved themselves to be false which caused me to seek another truth about him. Yet other things I thought to be true about him have never wavered and are standing the test of time. Because of that I in fact have "no choice" but to continue to believe they are true, as I have no other reason to believe otherwise.

Some of those truths I have tested to great degrees to try to prove them false, but to no avail as the truth is what it is. Yet other truths I tested and crumbled to the ground, as they were false.

Yet there are other truths that I have not tested, as I fear they are actually false and I am too cowardly to approach them for fear of the change it may make in my life or even that it may go against my pride.

My entire life has gone as follows:

I wake up, test the spirit and learn throughout my day, learn according to the intellect driving my test, fall asleep, then repeat.

The key here is what is the intellect driving my test.

What intellect drives yours?

I hope this helps.

[Realist1981]

I dont understand the point of this. Are you saying nobody can choose to believe anything? That makes no logical sense to me. Can you explain your position as to why you think this way?

[My Joy]

I'm not sure that belief happens instantaneously as you have described (like flipping a switch- I was this way and now I believe something different). My belief has taken some time. I view it as a journey. The description below is from Wikipedia. It explains it well as a process more than an event.


Belief can be understood as a state of mind in the process of increasing understanding that is sometimes called deduction. As people develop structures of understandings from observation or learned facts (generally accepted truths), they create a theory that is not unlike a bridge, sitting on those pillars of facts. This structure-building process is sometimes called induction. A general understanding of the specific facts is created. As people use these theories in their daily activities, research or experimentation, they tell themselves: I believe the underlying structure is true, to the best of my understanding — so, based on this theory (faith), I will see what is to come of it. This application and testing of faith is sometimes called deduction. New, specific information is developed by testing general understanding. This application of the general to the specific is what can be called faith; belief is our thinking that our faith is applicable in a given situation.
In essence, religious belief is similar. The difference lies in how specifics are approached: it could be said that science generally builds up from facts using induction, while religion generally builds down from accepted general principles using deduction. The common area of these two pyramids is a diamond that is accepted from both directions. The understanding (faith) and the applicability of that understanding (belief) are such pairs.

[moonglow]

moonglow,


re: “ I would bet you have all sorts of beliefs that came about for some reason or another right?”


That is correct. However, as I said, I did not obtain any of these beliefs by consciously CHOOSING to have them.


re: “People CAN and DO choose to believe all sorts of things all the time...”


And that is what I would like to learn. How do you consciously CHOOSE to do that - consciously CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

Lets focus on one thing at a time here...you said this: That is correct. However, as I said, I did not obtain any of these beliefs by consciously CHOOSING to have them.

If you didn't choose to believe those things you believe, then how did you come to believe them? Someone forced you to believe them or what? Did your subconscious decide to believe in them and your subconscious rules over your conscious thinking and reasoning? that would be werid...

I would like you to slow down and really think about this one thing for a minute....how did you come to the beliefs you have?

[rstrats]

Walstib,


re: “I am trying to pin down what you mean by state of mind.”


At the moment you realized that there was only one viable position with regard to the existence of a supreme being, did you also at that moment realize that you believed - were convinced without any doubt - that a supreme being existed?

[rstrats]

Realist1981,


re: “I don’t understand the point of this. Are you saying nobody can choose to believe anything? “


Not necessarily . I am only saying that “I” have never been able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. However, when ever I ask someone who says that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, to demonstrate their ability and explain how they do it, no one has complied.

[rstrats]

My Joy,


re: “I'm not sure that belief happens instantaneously as you have described...”


Can you explain how you can believe that something doesn’t exist, and at the same time believe that it does?

[rstrats]

moonglow,


re: “...how did you come to the beliefs you have?”


I would guess that they have been obtained through some subconscious process taking place in my mind as result of being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, and conversation.

[Walstib]

re: “I am trying to pin down what you mean by state of mind.”

At the moment you realized that there was only one viable position with regard to the existence of a supreme being, did you also at that moment realize that you believed - were convinced without any doubt - that a supreme being existed?

I would have to say yes to that. I can remember it as clear as when it first happened. As well as it being the God of the Bible, this was where much of the evidence had come from and it backed up all the other evidence from people and surroundings. Also in my "head context" is was more the tone of convinced without a doubt than believed. They may be the same thing... but the first has a better description for me.

Joe

[My Joy]

My Joy,


re: “I'm not sure that belief happens instantaneously as you have described...”


Can you explain how you can believe that something doesn’t exist, and at the same time believe that it does?

I would say this explains it best:
Belief can be understood as a state of mind in the process of increasing understanding that is sometimes called deduction

It is a process that happens over time. Since it is gradual I'm not sure if a person can identify an exact time.

[moonglow]

moonglow,


re: “...how did you come to the beliefs you have?”


I would guess that they have been obtained through some subconscious process taking place in my mind as result of being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, and conversation.

So when you were in school and the teacher presented facts to you, and facts in the textbooks and said this is a fact...you didn't choose to believe it inspite of the evidence? You had to wait until your subconscious came around and decided to believe it? That really doesn't make alot of sense actually. I mean image you are sitting in a history class and presented with the facts on a certain war in history...the facts show who was president, who was fighting, why they were, etc, etc....but you just refused to believe this until something in your subconscious kicked in?

If I gave you a link to world war two and you read through it with all the facts you would say you just couldn't believe it because you cannot make yourself belief something? if this is true I wonder how you even got through school unless you just lied and pretended everything was true just to past the tests...

[rstrats]

moonglow,


re: “So when you were in school and the teacher presented facts to you, and facts in the textbooks and said this is a fact...you didn't choose to believe it inspite of the evidence?”


I didn’t CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE to believe that the material being presented was factual.


re: “You had to wait until your subconscious came around and decided to believe it?... you just refused to believe this until something in your subconscious kicked in?”


It was awhile ago, but I would guess that it kicked in immediately in most cases.


re: “If I gave you a link to world war two and you read through it with all the facts you would say you just couldn't believe it because you cannot make yourself belief something? if this is true I wonder how you even got through school unless you just lied and pretended everything was true just to past the tests...”


If I realized, after reading your link, that I didn’t have a belief with regard to the truthfulness of what the link was presenting, it wouldn’t be because I consciously CHOSE to not believe it.


Look, all you have to do to show me that a belief can be consciously CHOSEN is to demonstrate your ability. As I asked you earlier, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in leprechauns, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Were you able to do that, and if you were, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[dljc]

What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

To change from non-belief to belief at the last minute as you are suggesting here, you have to be willing to accept the information/event that is given to you, for what it is.

Let me explain what I mean. Lets say you and a buddy are walking in the desert. You have a canteen of water, and you are 8 miles from the house you last saw to get help. It's hot and you are continually drinking out of this canteen to keep yourself hydrated. After you have traveled half the distance to the last house you saw, you come to the realization that you are not going to have enough water to make it to the house. We know we can go for more than just a few hours without water, but when you are walking in the hot desert, a cool drink of water to even wet your mouth helps you have the strength to carry on.

Knowing that you are only half way back to the last house and that you are running very low on water, you want help from somewhere. Lets say you say a prayer something like this, "God if you are really there, let us find water somewhere out here, to help us make it". Then you reach a place where there are trees and some vegetation. As you are standing there resting and trying to figure out what to do about water from this point forward, because you now realize you have a cup or less between two people.

As you stand there in the slient desert reflecting on your current situation. You notice the sound of trickling water, as it is the only sound being made at the time. You follow the sound and find an existing spring that you knew nothing about prior to this event. You take a small drink of it, and it is easy to swallow as fresh clean water.

Would you consider this a prayer answered? Or would you just consider it a coincidence? I have heard several people say there is no such thing as coincidence, and I have recently heard that a coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous. I like the last one, simply because we have a choice to either believe in Him or not.

Now you can look at this situation either way you want to. You can say we just happened to be standing where we could hear the sound of the trickling water. But insert the fact a prayer was said, did we just HAPPEN to walk to this particular place, or were we guided to that particular place where we stood?