Belief a CHOICE?

**Jabba** · Aug 10th 2009, 06:45 AM

Sorry, I only read the first part of your letter and none of the replies you had so far. But consider this...
Christianity is NOT a choice, its compulsary!
You can not hope to go to heaven, you have to believe you are going to heaven. How do you do that?
Well, it might be simpler than you thought.
Just believe.
Simple, hey?
But let me point you in the right direction, I'm not going to boar you with complicated scriptures, but do read this...
Faith is the answer...Romans 4:16
Where do you get the 'faith'?
Romans 10:17
By hearing the message...
Where do we hear the message?
In church!
One thing is worth mentioning here...if your church don't change you, change your church!
Be blessed...and have faith!

**Desperaux** · Aug 10th 2009, 06:55 AM

I haven't read the thread apart from the OP. I will go back and look after I post here.

I am one of those who teach that we must choose to believe, and that is after the revelation of the cross has been established in us. Once we accept Jesus Christ, having the knowledge of who He is, we must learn that we must choose to believe what He says, against what the enemy tells us, and against how we humanly feel.

This comes with discipleship, and growth.

Think of David, who made it a habit to hearken back to the things that God did for him in the past which spurred him on to belief in his present. As we discover and recognize the hand of God in our lives, it becomes easier and easier to believe the entire Word of God as revealed to us. We find it increasingly easy to step out in faith, as given by God.

"For the bible tells me so..."

**rstrats** · Aug 12th 2009, 09:46 AM

Brother Mark,

re: “Sure. In my own life, when I was lost, I began to believe I would die an go to hell because I didn't believe Jesus was God. Now, both of those can't be true.”

Not an appropriate example. Even though they may be irrational, those are different beliefs about different things.

re: “Look at it again [Matt 21:33-46].”

I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how that passage shows an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

re: “What's my point? That evidence does not always lead to a changed mind.”

I’ve never said otherwise.

**rstrats** · Aug 13th 2009, 05:36 PM

Desperaux,

re: “I am one of those who teach that we must choose to believe...”

Then I would ask of you what I have asked several others here - although unsuccessfully, so far - what is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

**Desperaux** · Aug 14th 2009, 03:14 PM

No one forces anyone to believe. It is a revelation given to us by God concerning the cross of Christ. It is our decision to follow that revelation or deny it.

God has given us sovereignty over our choices.

**Gypsy** · Aug 16th 2009, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by rstrats

what is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

The human mind is a fickle thing. I believe that it can be changed, but there will always be a lag time between wanting to believe something (the belief having value to you) and convicting the belief. I think psychologists call that cognitive dissonance. I think those same psychologists say that those heuristics (beliefs with which we try to predict the world around us) are regularly changed through this process of cognitive dissonance, but the value of those predictions need to be reevaluated. I believe I want a cheeseburger right now, but I just talked to my wife, who thinks I'm getting a little chubby. It's important for me to be attractive to my wife, so I choose to not have a cheeseburger. I have some money. I can get one if I want it, but I'm not getting one, so I must not want one, or at least not want one that badly. I choose to change what I want and my belief about what is important to me at this instant. Likewise with leprechauns, my mind is a weak and fickle thing and I'm sure that I could convince myself of their existence, should I want to, but I don't want to.

This of course is respecting belief, which is something different than faith. Beliefs come from this squishy little thing that I keep inside of this coconut ear holder on top my shoulders. They are wrong sometimes - often times. Faith is given by God. It's never led me astray.

**rstrats** · Aug 17th 2009, 10:18 AM

Desperaux,

re: “No one forces anyone to believe. It is a revelation given to us by God...”

Why isn’t that a contradictory statement?

**rstrats** · Aug 17th 2009, 10:23 AM

Gypsy,

re: “Likewise with leprechauns, my mind is a weak and fickle thing and I'm sure that I could convince myself of their existence, should I want to, but I don't want to.”

Can you consciously CHOOSE to want to do something?

**Desperaux** · Aug 17th 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by rstrats

Desperaux,

re: “No one forces anyone to believe. It is a revelation given to us by God...”

Why isn’t that a contradictory statement?

People all over the world are given a revelation of Jesus Christ, yet turn away from it. It is a choice to follow after Him, convinced that He is who He says He is.

Jesus simply asks us as He did those fishermen, "Come, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men"---we can say no.

**Gypsy** · Aug 17th 2009, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by rstrats

Gypsy,

re: “Likewise with leprechauns, my mind is a weak and fickle thing and I'm sure that I could convince myself of their existence, should I want to, but I don't want to.”

Can you consciously CHOOSE to want to do something?

I suppose it depends on the time frame you give me and access to outside stimuli. It sounds like your asking if, in a vacuum and instantaneously, can you change a belief you hold about something? Right? I suppose it depends on how dearly I hold that belief. I'm not so intellectual as to say that my beliefs exist independently of my affect. Many or most of the beliefs that I have are connected to strong emotional motivators. To change the belief would be to change it's value to me beyond the upper or lower limit of those thresholds. Could I do it in a vacuum? I guess, by reevaluating the schemas I use to interpret the world around me and asking myself how important they are to me - Hey why do I want a cheeseburger? I just ate an hour ago. Yeah, I guess that's pretty dumb. I suppose I could do it.

But outside of that vacuum, where we live, folks make changes to their beliefs all the time - in response to love. The bigot, who's life is saved by a black man. The drug addict/prostitute/etc. who finds the strength to rise above their condition in response to the kindness of strangers. The thief on the cross who felt the love of God through Jesus. Love can change your heart, which in turn can change your mind. I know it sounds sappy to an intellectual guy like you, but it's how it works is all.

I pray that you will come to know that love.

**rstrats** · Apr 11th 2012, 08:47 AM

Desperaux,

re: "People all over the world are given a revelation of Jesus Christ..."

Exactly what does that revelation entail?

**nimrod** · Jun 10th 2012, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by rstrats

Desperaux,

re: "People all over the world are given a revelation of Jesus Christ..."

Exactly what does that revelation entail?

And how would you know that people are given that revelation?

I just can't imagine someone being spoken to by God in a way in which they can understand, and then turning away from him.

**Bandit** · Jun 10th 2012, 03:26 AM

Hey, this is a very old thread, so don't expect any quick replies.

**nimrod** · Jun 10th 2012, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bandit

Hey, this is a very old thread, so don't expect any quick replies.

Yes, 0.3% as old as Christianity itself

I was intrigued by this thread as the OP looked like it could have been written by me -

and the comment at the end:

Originally Posted by Desperaux

People all over the world are given a revelation of Jesus Christ, yet turn away from it. It is a choice to follow after Him, convinced that He is who He says He is.

is something I often hear from some Christians - essentially saying I should accept God. I tell them I do accept Him, I've told Him that with an open heart and asked him to reveal himself, and yet as nothing has noticably changed in me, I have to assume that God in his wisdom is waiting for something - for me to be ready, for the right time.

And yet I still feel criticised for not living as they do, and not going to church. Which is when I start to feel that some christians are not people filled with grace, but arrogance - they think they know God's will better than him.

**Bandit** · Jun 10th 2012, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by nimrod

People all over the world are given a revelation of Jesus Christ, yet turn away from it. It is a choice to follow after Him, convinced that He is who He says He is.
is something I often hear from some Christians - essentially saying I should accept God. I tell them I do accept Him, I've told Him that with an open heart and asked him to reveal himself, and yet as nothing has noticably changed in me, I have to assume that God in his wisdom is waiting for something - for me to be ready, for the right time.

To believe in God is to have faith that He is, and to live as if He actually does exist. So by you saying that nothing inside of you has changed, I percieve that you really don't have the faith in God that the bible speaks of. If one lives by faith, as if God actually does exist, that is the change God is looking for. So I think it is probably more God who is waiting on you. Perhaps it is time for you to step out in faith and live as though He lives.

Originally Posted by nimrod

And yet I still feel criticised for not living as they do, and not going to church. Which is when I start to feel that some christians are not people filled with grace, but arrogance - they think they know God's will better than him.

Well, you will always find such people.