Have once saved always saved threads ever lead you to change your mind?

[david]

What about the 'uncalled'? If there are called, then there must be uncalled. Where do they come in? Pulpit fodder?

I'm not saying the called ones are the drawn ones (as from John 12:32). they are not necessarily the same. But all called ones get eternal life eventually. Another proof: "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:23-24 "

[John 8:32]

I'm not saying the called ones are the drawn ones (as from John 12:32). they are not necessarily the same. But all called ones get eternal life eventually. Another proof: "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:23-24 "

But what happens to the 'uncalled' ones? The ones that are not called at this time?

[david]

But what happens to the 'uncalled' ones? The ones that are not called at this time?

All uncalled ones will go to hell for eternity.

All called ones inherit eternal life; all uncalled ones inherit eternal hell;
chosen ones (part of the called ones) inherit eternal life immediately after this age; called ones not including the chosen ones get punishment for 1000 years for not overcoming and then inherit eternal life.

[episkopos]

All uncalled ones will go to hell for eternity.

All called ones inherit eternal life; all uncalled ones inherit eternal hell;
chosen ones (part of the called ones) inherit eternal life immediately after this age; called ones not including the chosen ones get punishment for 1000 years for not overcoming and then inherit eternal life.

The truth is that only a few of the called will be chosen as the Bride of Christ. Many are called but few are chosen. Christianity is about the calling to rule with Christ.

Salvation is not about being the Bride, however. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

[fewarechosen]

there is a difference between the temple and the courtyard, the temple is measured and the number is known, the courtyard is not numbered.

Chosen = 1 of 144 thousand redeemed from among mankind, thats the temple.

[Diggindeeper]

Which one of the points I showed you do you not agree with and why?

David, none of those scriptures say what you are telling us they say. NONE of them. You are reading into them your 'Calvinism', that ONLY a FEW were created for heaven and the rest created to go to hell. And of course, you (as all Calvinist who come here!) just happen to always be part of those 'select' chosen few! This is the most arrogant doctrine on the face of the earth!

The promise of eternal life is for ALL called ones - "the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:39

Again, you pick and choose certain select scriptures that to you prove your Calvinism. The promise is to ALL! No only to all of the arrrogant ones who claim to be the 'chosen'. And to heck with the rest of us.

I'm not saying the called ones are the drawn ones (as from John 12:32). they are not necessarily the same. But all called ones get eternal life eventually. Another proof: "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:23-24 "

I am so sorry you have been indoctrinated into the 5 points of the 'TULIP' of Calvinism. May this show how far off Calvinism is scripturally!

All uncalled ones will go to hell for eternity.

All called ones inherit eternal life; all uncalled ones inherit eternal hell;
chosen ones (part of the called ones) inherit eternal life immediately after this age; called ones not including the chosen ones get punishment for 1000 years for not overcoming and then inherit eternal life.

There is not one scripture in all the Bible that says "the chosen ones get punishment for 1000 years for not overcoming and then inherit eternal life." YOU are saying that, but NO scripture says that. It is only YOU who is INSERTING your Calvinistic beliefs into the scriptures!

Again, I am SO sorry you have been led into this dangerous doctrine!

[david]

there is a difference between the temple and the courtyard, the temple is measured and the number is known, the courtyard is not numbered.

Chosen = 1 of 144 thousand redeemed from among mankind, thats the temple.

Interesting, I heard that the number of people who ever lived is 107,602,707,791. Divide this by 144,000 and you get 747,241 chosen ones. The number of cities existing is 2,469,501. That means if the age ended today, on average every chosen one will get to reign over 3 cities.

[david]

David, none of those scriptures say what you are telling us they say. NONE of them. You are reading into them your 'Calvinism', that ONLY a FEW were created for heaven and the rest created to go to hell. And of course, you (as all Calvinist who come here!) just happen to always be part of those 'select' chosen few! This is the most arrogant doctrine on the face of the earth!


Again, you pick and choose certain select scriptures that to you prove your Calvinism. The promise is to ALL! No only to all of the arrrogant ones who claim to be the 'chosen'. And to heck with the rest of us.



I am so sorry you have been indoctrinated into the 5 points of the 'TULIP' of Calvinism. May this show how far off Calvinism is scripturally!



There is not one scripture in all the Bible that says "the chosen ones get punishment for 1000 years for not overcoming and then inherit eternal life." YOU are saying that, but NO scripture says that. It is only YOU who is INSERTING your Calvinistic beliefs into the scriptures!

Again, I am SO sorry you have been led into this dangerous doctrine!

What i mean to say is, the called ones may or may not be the same as the drawn ones. But if I say, they are the same, then I would be supporting universalism, but if I say, they are not the same, then I would be saying that some are created to go to hell for eternity. I am not saying either way because I don't know if the drawn ones is the same as the called ones.

[Gadgeteer]

To answer the OP's original question...

Nope and never will.

Why not? You and I are Human; we are imperfect, and capable of being wrong. If someone can show something new from Scripture, will we not both be open to it? For those who converse with me --- I value highly the privilege of being allowed to see through their eyes, even IF we do not come to agreement. How narrow my world would be without that vision.

But what happens to the 'uncalled' ones? The ones that are not called at this time?

Where in Scripture is anyone not truly called to salvation? Many people hold up Judas as "one whom God ordained to perish". Prophesy does not decide what will happen, it only foretells the future. Judas was one of the "chosen twelve" (Jn6:70), all of whom were chosen to be disciples and to bear fruit that remains (Jn15:16). Not only was Judas chosen to be saved, but in Jn6:67-70 he is the answer that Jesus asserts to Peter's loyalty.

Jesus: "YOU aren't going to leave Me TOO, are you?"
Peter: "Of course not; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "I chose all TWELVE of you; one of you is leaving."

That was paraphrased, but it is what was happening --- Judas was prime example that leaving is possible. It's the same dynamic as in Lk22, where Peter protested his loyalty to Jesus, saying he would go to prison or even die for Him; but Jesus said "You'll deny Me three times tonight."

If a person was of OSAS bent, would these verses not change his or her mind?

[Gadgeteer]

The promise of eternal life is for ALL called ones - "the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:39

David, where in Scripture is anyone "not called"? As we read in Matt22:2-14, "everyone they could find" were invited.

When you read Jn6:44, "No one comes to Me unless the Father ...draws him", you correctly note that "draw", is "helkuo-drag-forcibly". What then do you do with John12:32?
If I am lifted up, then I will draw all men to Myself."

That also uses "helkuo-draw/drag". I know that "pas" is taken by Calvinists to not mean all, but only all of the few-elected ("some-of-all-types"); but nothing in these words convey "few". In 1Tim2:1-4, "all men" in context includes all authority, and all authority is not saved, therefore it cannot mean "few-predestined".

What i mean to say is, the called ones may or may not be the same as the drawn ones. But if I say, they are the same, then I would be supporting universalism, but if I say, they are not the same, then I would be saying that some are created to go to hell for eternity. I am not saying either way because I don't know if the drawn ones is the same as the called ones.

Let's discuss the concept of "two callings". Reformed Theology asserts that there is a general call to salvation of all Humans. But "total depravity", which in Calvinism is not just total depravity but really total inability must be sovereignly changed (by a monergistically-regenerated heart, the second "exclusive and effective call") before and so that one is able (nay, must irresistibly!) turn to Christ. Therefore, this general calling is INSINCERE --- which is to call God insincere and hypocritical!

A calling that God knows men cannot answer, is NOT a real calling at all.

I don't see "two callings" in Scripture; I see "all are called, and he who believes, is saved". Have you considered the idea of persuasion (Acts26:28-29)? The very idea that one can be persuaded to believe savingly completely opposes "predestined/monergistically-caused belief". John ended his testament declaring the purpose of his writing was to convince the reader to believe (persuasion!), and believing to have eternal life in Christ Jesus. Jn20:31.

If the calling and the drawing are the same, it does not support "Universalism" if men have the choice to respond or not, as Jesus plainly taught in Matt22:2-14.

[Gadgeteer]

The truth is that only a few of the called will be chosen as the Bride of Christ. Many are called but few are chosen. Christianity is about the calling to rule with Christ.

Hi, "Episkopos". In Matt22:2-14, isn't it clear that "the called" are "as many as they found", everyone? No one was uninvited, was he? And of those who did not become saved --- who did not decide for himself?

Salvation is not about being the Bride, however. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Romans9:18. How does that fit with Romans11:32?
"God has shut up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all."

[Gadgeteer]

What about the 'uncalled'? If there are called, then there must be uncalled. Where do they come in? Pulpit fodder?

Churches will generally accept anyone as fodder to fill the pews. Ironically, my church recently sponsored an outreach to dry-wall workers, who in these hard times had been working Sundays. It was effective, the next Sunday the church was filled. The dry-wall construction workers prefer the colloquialism reference, "mudders".

The preacher addressed the church:
"We are very pleased to welcome all you mudders and fodders, and all your chi'dren!"

[John 8:32]

All uncalled ones will go to hell for eternity.

All called ones inherit eternal life; all uncalled ones inherit eternal hell;
chosen ones (part of the called ones) inherit eternal life immediately after this age; called ones not including the chosen ones get punishment for 1000 years for not overcoming and then inherit eternal life.

Seems pretty arbitrary to me. How does this work, luck of the draw? Not all human life is precious? God says to Christ "Aw that's enough, fry the rest of "em". I really don't believe this to be true. I think everyone gets there chance.

[Gadgeteer]

Seems pretty arbitrary to me. How does this work, luck of the draw? Not all human life is precious? God says to Christ "Aw that's enough, fry the rest of "em".

It's worse than that. Under "predestined-election", there really is no predestination but double-predestination --- God created only a few to live eternally, the rest He purposed to perish and ultimately was causally-involved in their sin and depravity. They were created for destruction and are not part of the "elite chosen of God". It makes no difference whether it is double-predestination by direct causation (God actually writing their sins into their hearts, in violation of 1Jn3:5 "in Him there is no sin"), or by indirect causation because God leaves them to their irresistible depravity and sin and withholds the only means of them overcoming sin; both views still assert His sovereign choice for them is sin and Hell.

Ask a Calvinist "why does God choose one and not another?" --- and he or she won't know. "It's just God's wisdom" is the usual answer. Which, if you think about it farther, means there is something about a person whom God chooses that makes God WISE to choose that person. That means full "merit salvation".

Calvinists include such as Sproul, Piper, Macarthur, White, Gill, Pink, Spurgeon, men who hold (or held) high degrees in theology. They are not dumb people. But they clearly do not carry the implications of their belief to the inescapable conclusion, that God wants and ordains most men to be sinful and to perish.

Nor do they consider the ramifications of their belief in conjunction with passages like Luke8:13-15. Jesus said that what separates "good soil" from "rocky soil", is that one receives the Word with a good heart and holds it fast and bears fruit with perseverance, while the other succumbs to temptation affliction and persecution (Mk4:17). Reformed Theology founds on the premise that the fruit is the inescapable consequence of the GOD-ORDAINED-SOIL (God causes soil to either BE good or rocky), rather than including Heb6:7-8 to correctly understand a soil is CALLED "good" IF it produces good fruit with perseverance, but another soil is CALLED "rocky" IF it does not strengthen itself against temptation persecution and affliction. Clearly every man pursues sin until his predestined moment of salvation (with no explanation as to why God wants His elect to sin at all). And those who seemed to have escaped defilements (or actually somehow did escape defilements but without Jesus, violating Jn15:5), they are the ones who "received the Word with joy and believed" (Lk8:13!) --- but they prove by their eventual apostasy that "they were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place". A clear "Catch - 22".

Another thing they don't consider is that inherent in the very doctrine is the reality that no one can know if he's TRULY elect and will persevere (God will preserve!), or only FALSELY BELIEVING and will prove he's not chosen-by-God by falling away at some point before dying. This violates 1Jn5:11-13, that we can KNOW we have eternal life.

So Reformed Theology proposes "two calls", the general call is insincere; God is hypocritical. Men can THINK themselves saved and even escape defilements (2Pet2:20-22), but God doesn't love them and doesn't want them, they're only deluding themselves with righteousness; God is cruel. God will run His Final Judgment, judging MEN for what He Himself really decided, because (as they perceive) "nothing happens apart from His sovereign will" (violating 1Cor10:13); God is a false judge.

I really don't believe this to be true. I think everyone gets their chance.

It has to be that way. In Romans2:6-8, those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality receive eternal life, but those WHO pursue sin receive wrath/Hell.

God's essence is LOVE (1Jn4:16); and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5), therefore each must make a fully voluntary choice to love Him or to love sin. Voluntary choice is the only basis for God to judge men (Rev20:12-15). The greatest commandment is to love God (Matt22:37), it is an option that God arranges as fully possible for every man (Acts17:26-30). It is what Deuteronomy30:11-20 asserts; the word of faith is in EVERYONE'S heart, each can confess and believe and be saved (Rom10:9-10), or can turn away and perish (Deut30:17-18)!

There is a wealth of theology in this highly-condensed post, replete with very specific Scripture citations. I humbly charge each person to not just brush these verses aside, but to consider what Scripture says. Without answering these verses, "Reformed Theology" cannot continue to be acceptable doctrine.

...and if anyone can answer the verses, I'd love to see the response. Without a response, the very subject of this thread becomes:

WHY NOT?

:-)

[david]

It's worse than that. Under "predestined-election", there really is no predestination but double-predestination --- God created only a few to live eternally, the rest He purposed to perish and ultimately was causally-involved in their sin and depravity. They were created for destruction and are not part of the "elite chosen of God". It makes no difference whether it is double-predestination by direct causation (God actually writing their sins into their hearts, in violation of 1Jn3:5 "in Him there is no sin"), or by indirect causation because God leaves them to their irresistible depravity and sin and withholds the only means of them overcoming sin; both views still assert His sovereign choice for them is sin and Hell.

Ask a Calvinist "why does God choose one and not another?" --- and he or she won't know. "It's just God's wisdom" is the usual answer. Which, if you think about it farther, means there is something about a person whom God chooses that makes God WISE to choose that person. That means full "merit salvation".

Calvinists include such as Sproul, Piper, Macarthur, White, Gill, Pink, Spurgeon, men who hold (or held) high degrees in theology. They are not dumb people. But they clearly do not carry the implications of their belief to the inescapable conclusion, that God wants and ordains most men to be sinful and to perish.

Nor do they consider the ramifications of their belief in conjunction with passages like Luke8:13-15. Jesus said that what separates "good soil" from "rocky soil", is that one receives the Word with a good heart and holds it fast and bears fruit with perseverance, while the other succumbs to temptation affliction and persecution (Mk4:17). Reformed Theology founds on the premise that the fruit is the inescapable consequence of the GOD-ORDAINED-SOIL (God causes soil to either BE good or rocky), rather than including Heb6:7-8 to correctly understand a soil is CALLED "good" IF it produces good fruit with perseverance, but another soil is CALLED "rocky" IF it does not strengthen itself against temptation persecution and affliction. Clearly every man pursues sin until his predestined moment of salvation (with no explanation as to why God wants His elect to sin at all). And those who seemed to have escaped defilements (or actually somehow did escape defilements but without Jesus, violating Jn15:5), they are the ones who "received the Word with joy and believed" (Lk8:13!) --- but they prove by their eventual apostasy that "they were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place". A clear "Catch - 22".

Another thing they don't consider is that inherent in the very doctrine is the reality that no one can know if he's TRULY elect and will persevere (God will preserve!), or only FALSELY BELIEVING and will prove he's not chosen-by-God by falling away at some point before dying. This violates 1Jn5:11-13, that we can KNOW we have eternal life.

So Reformed Theology proposes "two calls", the general call is insincere; God is hypocritical. Men can THINK themselves saved and even escape defilements (2Pet2:20-22), but God doesn't love them and doesn't want them, they're only deluding themselves with righteousness; God is cruel. God will run His Final Judgment, judging MEN for what He Himself really decided, because (as they perceive) "nothing happens apart from His sovereign will" (violating 1Cor10:13); God is a false judge.
It has to be that way. In Romans2:6-8, those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality receive eternal life, but those WHO pursue sin receive wrath/Hell.

God's essence is LOVE (1Jn4:16); and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5), therefore each must make a fully voluntary choice to love Him or to love sin. Voluntary choice is the only basis for God to judge men (Rev20:12-15). The greatest commandment is to love God (Matt22:37), it is an option that God arranges as fully possible for every man (Acts17:26-30). It is what Deuteronomy30:11-20 asserts; the word of faith is in EVERYONE'S heart, each can confess and believe and be saved (Rom10:9-10), or can turn away and perish (Deut30:17-18)!

There is a wealth of theology in this highly-condensed post, replete with very specific Scripture citations. I humbly charge each person to not just brush these verses aside, but to consider what Scripture says. Without answering these verses, "Reformed Theology" cannot continue to be acceptable doctrine.

...and if anyone can answer the verses, I'd love to see the response. Without a response, the very subject of this thread becomes:

WHY NOT?

:-)

Not going to support either option you posted, but perhaps this passage may be valuable to the discussion

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— [Rebekah] was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:11-24

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4

do you think these passages support the first or second option or neither?