Have once saved always saved threads ever lead you to change your mind?

[Diggindeeper]

What i mean to say is, the called ones may or may not be the same as the drawn ones. But if I say, they are the same, then I would be supporting universalism, but if I say, they are not the same, then I would be saying that some are created to go to hell for eternity. I am not saying either way because I don't know if the drawn ones is the same as the called ones.

Bottom line of your belief, David...God CREATES some destined for eternity with Him and others He CREATES to go straight to hell.

Plus, another bottom line...there is NO scripture that says believers will spend '1,000' years in hell and then go into eternity with God Almighty.' That is simply not true and it is heresy.

Today is the day of salvation for ALL. ALL means everyone. Period. And time is just too short to wrangle over someone's false OPINIONS. And I am telling you that that '1,000 years spent in hell by believers' is false and NOT scriptural. There is not one scripture that can prove that, and I NEVER heard anyone but YOU try to pull that one off.

Just had to tell you that, so everyone reading will know!

[Gadgeteer]

Not going to support either option you posted, but perhaps this passage may be valuable to the discussion:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— [Rebekah] was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Hi, David. Thank you for your consideration. I'll answer every point, with full Scripture backing. I respectfully ask you to look up these verses, and use a Greek/Hebrew lexicon to see if what I say is valid.

What was happening in Romans9? Please recognize that Rm9:8 is conceptually identical to Galatians 3:29. Now, please read Galatians 4:21-31. Paul makes an allegory (plainly stated as such) about the two covenants, using Isaac for the New and Ishmael for the Old. Establishing the parallel between Gal3:29 & 4:21-31 with Rom9:11-21, Paul again makes an allegory, this time in Romans using Jacob and Esau. Recognize that Rm9:12 is clearly and absolutely citing Genesis 25:23, "Two PEOPLES are in your womb, the older shall serve the younger". The older covenant (Law!) shall serve the younger covenant (grace!). Two peoples, two covenants. It's the same theme.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

What does Paul mean here? Is he promoting an exclusive mercy, that "God coldly BANS most men from the grace of His mercy but capriciously bestows mercy on a FEW whom He loves (and not on those He created to be hated)"? Not at all. In presenting the "two-covenants-allegory", the New Covenant includes Gentiles; the whole Rom9:11-21 passage is "Also Gentiles", stated as such in verse 24. That is the theme of Romans9:8 and Galatians3:29, "also Gentiles" --- not physical descendants are children of Abraham, but children of the Promise are regarded as descendants.

We are adopted Jews. That's the theme.

So on whom does God have mercy? Per Romans11:32 (which is in context with chapter 9!), He has mercy on ALL.

What Paul is asserting in chapter 9, is:
"If God wants to have mercy an also Gentiles, who are YOU (Jews) to OBJECT?"

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

In the concept of "hardening", we cannot perceive God as causing sin; Scripture employs the Semitic view, ascribing to God what men do themselves. Thus, "God hardened Pharaoh" (Exodus10:1), is conceptually the same as "Pharaoh hardened HIMSELF" (two verses earlier, Ex9:34).

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

Note that Paul uses "boulema-will", akin to DECREE (as opposed to "thelema-desire-will", Jn6:40). Now read 2Pet3:9, God does not DECREE (boulemai) any to perish..."

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Romans 9:11-24

Here a clear theological point must be established. How many vessels are there?

Calvinists say TWO --- "honor", and "dishonor/wrath-prepared-for-destruction". The only way this would be possible is for God to take blank innocent clay, put it on His wheel and SCULPT sin into them!

No, texts like New American Standard recognize THREE vessels:
1. Time (tee-may), saved vessels for honorable use
2. Atimia, saved vessels for common use
3. Vessels of wrath PREPARED for destruction

That they prepared themselves for destruction (the verb is perfect passive participle in Rm9:22, "being prepared by their own sin"), is clear in Romans2:8. We cannot discard Romans2:6-8, or Romans11:32, or Galatians3-4 to pursue a "predestination understanding". Two vessels, by their saving-belief are on the Potter's wheel, He makes one lump into "honor vessels" and another lump into "common vessels"; the third group aren't on His wheel at all.

Do you have any objection so far?

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4

Again, do you perceive that God SCULPTS sin and wickedness into men's hearts? God, in whom there is no sin (1Jn3:5), who hates sin and sent the Son to DESTROY the works of the devil (not to CAUSE them! 1Jn3:8), actually WROTE sins into their hearts? Never.

God has a nature, and a character; by His character He cannot be associated with sin in any form (see the charge of "blasphemy" in Matt12:25-32, God's house cannot be divided!). He cannot ordain sin, He cannot be either directly or indirectly involved. James says we sin when tempted and carried away by our own lust; Paul said in 1Cor10:13 that God graciously provides an escape for temptation, but it is up to us to take it or to choose sin.

By God's nature He cannot be false, dishonest, or unjust. God's justice is in response to faith (Rom3:26), our faith is not the irresistible consequence of God's sovereign and false justice.

Please consider this:

2 tn Heb “for its answer.” The term לַמַּעֲנֵהוּ (lamma’anehu) has been taken to mean either “for his purpose” or “for its answer.” The Hebrew word is מַעֲנֶה (ma’aneh, “answer”) and not לְמַעַן (lÿma’an, “purpose”). So the suffix likely refers to “everything” (כֹּל, kol). God ensures that everyone’s actions and the consequences of those actions correspond – certainly the wicked for the day of calamity. In God’s order there is just retribution for every act.

pa`al is most often translated “work” (19 times), or “workers” (19 times). It does not convey “creates them wicked”, but “makes them answer for their choice”.

So --- God sets men in place to receive the CONSEQUENCE of their own wickedness.

Make sense?

do you think these passages support the first or second option or neither?

They do not support "predestinatined-salvation". Nor does Romans8:28-35, nor does Jn6:37-65, nor does any other passage; we can discuss anything you wish, I welcome your thoughts.

To cling to "predestined-salvation", many other verses must be scratched out. I've shown you verses which fully oppose the "predestined-salvation" view. Verses which conflict are attempted to be accommodated sometimes, with ideas like "pas doesn't really mean all but some-of-all-types" (which we have disproven; try to make Acts17:26-30 mean that God does not really command all men to repent, or that God is false and issues commands that He does not equip all to OBEY; command does imply ability, and the context of Acts17 agrees!).

The afore-mentioned promoters of Calvinism are smart men, some having doctoral degrees. "Reformed Theology" is a complicated construct, seemingly clean and polished, with classic pillars outside and rich wood paneling inside; it has chrome accents and a smooth solid foundation. It is only on close inspection, in conjunction with Scriptures like we've been discussing, that we see great holes in that foundation that have been trowelled over, and huge gaps in the walls that have been filled with putty. Out back is a pile of bricks that don't fit. The passages you've asserted (like from Romans9, and Proverbs 16) are classic bricks in the structure. So are those we have not yet talked about, like from John6 (specifically 37, 39, 44, 65). John10:28, 1Cor2:14, and Acts13:48, and many others. But you are beginning to see that the whole structure is falling.

Aren't you?

[Gadgeteer]

Again, do you perceive that God SCULPTS sin and wickedness into men's hearts? God, in whom there is no sin (1Jn3:5), who hates sin and sent the Son to DESTROY the works of the devil (not to CAUSE them! 1Jn3:8), actually WROTE sins into their hearts? Never.

God has a nature, and a character; by His character He cannot be associated with sin in any form (see the charge of "blasphemy" in Matt12:25-32, God's house cannot be divided!). He cannot ordain sin, He cannot be either directly or indirectly involved. James says we sin when tempted and carried away by our own lust; Paul said in 1Cor10:13 that God graciously provides an escape for temptation, but it is up to us to take it or to choose sin.

By God's nature He cannot be false, dishonest, or unjust. God's justice is in response to faith (Rom3:26), our faith is not the irresistible consequence of God's sovereign and false justice.

The fact that 1 Cor6:9-11 speaks of some who WERE wicked but are now righteous in Christ disproves any notion that all the wicked were created for the purpose of sending them to hell.

Eph2:3 asserts that we "were formerly children of wrath/Hell, same as the rest!".

We were wicked, we were children of Hell. In no way could we have been created "righteous and destined-for-Heaven", therefore in no way could the reprobate have been created so by God; inasmuch as we chose to believe and receive Jesus and therefore be righteous, those who perish are condemned BECAUSE they have not believed in the Son. 1Jn5:10, Jn3:18. Note well that in Matt7:14, the word "heurisko" fully means "find (eternal life) by diligently seeking".

Furthermore --- in Matt23:13 are those who ARE ENTERING (that can only mean "are believing and being saved"), but the Pharisees deceive them, shutting off the kingdom of Heaven and stopping them from entering; making them twice-children-of-Hell as the Pharisees are.

So one is a "child of Hell" before he believes and receives Jesus and is entering into the kingdom of Heaven, and he can become a child-of-Hell again. The verses are very conclusive.

Scripture does not teach fear (1Jn4:18, 2Tim1:7), but a quiet humility and consciousness of the diligence required of our faith (2Pet1:5-11, 1Tim4:16, Matt18:3-4). Our confidence is Jesus (Heb6:19, 10:19), and with full confidence we are sure of our salvation, as we utilize the Spirit's power to guard the treasure of eternal life entrusted to us (2Tim1:12-14, 1Jn5:11-13).

Has anyone's mind been changed yet?

:-)


PS: Previous post, the reference of James speaking of "enticed into sin by our own lust" was 1:14-16. Do not be deceived, beloved brethren; and "thanatos" conveys spiritual death in this context.

[ProjectPeter]

Oh look! I hate this discussion!

[Indueseason]

Oh look! I hate this discussion!

It's a bit like watching two young kids trying to build a jigsaw puzzle together. They both have a pile of pieces each, but neither of them want to join they're pieces together to see what the picture is!

blessings to you

[Gadgeteer]

Oh look! I hate this discussion!

Why, Peter? The point of a Christian message board is to promote Jesus, to teach His salvation, and to promote love and fellowship between believers. It is critical to never let exuberance to be "right" supercede our brothers' and sisters' faith and walk in Christ. The goal is to strengthen and encourage, to draw each other into a closer walk with Him, deeper into Scripture, and closer to each other.

One view of OSAS matters very much --- Antinomianism (sinningly-saved, backslidden-but-saved, saved spirit but corrupt flesh, etcetera). The other two views do not matter in an eternal sense, because we can have sufficient agreement to love each other and to expect to rejoice together in Jesus' presence when He returns.

Perhaps there are two levels of truth --- "sufficient truth", that Jesus is God, and salvation is a gift of grace received by faith. Without merit, gained not by works but as a free gift of love. That we cannot walk in sin, for he who practices sin is not of God and "will not inherit the kingdom" (1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21). Most here have this much agreement; it is the basis of our connection and our mutual encouragement.

The second level is "complete truth". This is the often-shadowy goal that we seek, and it is the basis for great conversation. If love is always our focus, then we dare venture into discussions of "complete truth", painfully aware of our own limitations. Each of us is imperfect, each of us "see in a mirror darkly"; we will not know everything until the Perfect comes, when we know fully even as we are fully known. Each person comes here with his or her own grasp of "complete truth", and as iron sharpens iron we measure each of our understandings against the others'. The goal is to sharpen and to BE sharpened, not to inflict damage on each other --- painfully aware of both good and injury one can do with a sharp sword. Properly wielded, a sharp edge can "rightly divide the word"; improperly it can divide believers. The approach must be entered into with humility and much prayer, that our words be His, and that His love be ours. That no harm be done, that even if we prove ourselves right in Scripture we do it with the gentleness and kindness that allows the other to flourish in Christ.

Scripture is inspired by God. (2Tim3:16.) Each of us also agrees on this. Is Jesus God? Scripture says "yes", and this can be proven. It is the basis of our faith, that "God-became-man", and accomplished what our weak flesh could not. This is but one point of many which form our doctrine; it is the very difference in our understandings that forms the whole reason for discussions. If we all agreed on everything, wouldn't it be boring!

If "love" is our aim, fully aware of 1Jn4:20 ("If one ...hates his brother whom he has seen, he cannot love God whom he has not seen"), then how can any discussions be bad?

"Sufficient truth" with recognition of our own shortcomings, means that we can enjoy discussing things, agreeing to disagree when we cannot come to resolution of our differences. "Disputes factions and dissentions" condemns the differences, while "fellowship" celebrates what is in common. Maturity is perhaps knowing the difference.

In the final analysis, Jesus is our commonality. Let us sharpen each other, WITH the founding theme of love and excited expectation of being together with Him not only when He returns, but fully realizing eternity has already begun in the hearts of those who love Him and know Him.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

It's a bit like watching two young kids trying to build a jigsaw puzzle together. They both have a pile of pieces each, but neither of them want to join their pieces together to see what the picture is!

Hi, "Season"! I'd love to hear (uhm, read?) your thoughts on my last several posts; I'm betting we'll have a lot of agreement on #291, immediately above.

I confess I do see things in "black and white"; I've read verses that to me teach certain things clearly. As an example, please consider Hebrews12:7-9:

"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as sons.
What son is there whom his father does not discipline?
But if you are without discipline (of which all have become partakers), then you are illegitimate and not sons.
Furthermore, we respected earthly fathers' discipline;
shall we not much rather be subject to the (discipline of the) Father ...and live?"

This thread is "Have OSAS discussions changed your mind?" What can we conclude from what we just read in Hebrews12:7-9?

1. God deals with us as sons, the saved are partners, but the unsaved were always illegitimate and never were sons; we the saved SHALL be subject and we SHALL live.

2. One audience --- we respected earthly fathers' discipline; we have become subject to God's (past), shall we not be in subjection (continuing) to God's discipline, and live?

This then is the "black-and-white" --- which number reflects what the writer intended?

I perceive that "born-again", is the same as "born-of-God", and "begotten-of-God", and "become-adopted-children-of-God". Thus, we are sons and heirs even as Galatians3:29 says, by our faith that receives His gift of adoption (Romans8:15!). If Hebrews12 is saying that we have a choice to submit to His discipline and live eternally, or that we have a choice to refuse His discipline and no longer be sons, then this opposes ALL views of OSAS. What is the answer? What did the writer mean?

"...much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)." Hebrews12:25

How is the theme of the whole chapter (and really all of Hebrews) not continuously teaching against "turning away from salvation", against "forsaking our being born-again and because of sin no longer being God's sons"?

That's the point of the discussions --- to consider each person's point-of-view, and to answer the verses cited. If understanding #1 above (of Heb12:7-9) is chosen, then it's appropriate to ask why an abrupt subject-change is perceived in the middle, and how verse 25 (and 15 also!) fit.

Is it possible for us to understand what Scripture states, or are we forever "children unsuccessfully building a jigsaw puzzle"?

blessings to you

Blessings and hugs to you also.

:-)

[ProjectPeter]

Why, Peter?

It was an attempt at humor. Guess you new guys don't know me that well but the old-timers would pick right up on it.

[Diggindeeper]

It was an attempt at humor. Guess you new guys don't know me that well but the old-timers would pick right up on it.

They sure did pick up on it, I think. Where did they go, by the way?

Yeah Gadgeteer...he hates this discussion.

NOT!

[mailmandan]

What can we conclude from what we just read in Hebrews12:7-9? If Hebrews12 is saying that we have a choice to submit to His discipline and live eternally, or that we have a choice to refuse His discipline and no longer be sons, then this opposes ALL views of OSAS. What is the answer? What did the writer mean?

I still don't see the words "no longer sons" in Hebrews 12:8. The author states that if you lack discipline, you are not a true child of God, but rather illegitimate. "Without discipline" marks dissociation and indicates a distinct separation from discipline. In other words - no "separate from" discipline = not a believer. We are either sons or else we are not.

Illegitimate children (nothos) is one who is unable to register a valid claim to ancestry and thus is a spurious or illegitimate son. In the present context nothos then describes one who is unable to make an accredited claim to sonship (referring to a legitimate son or daughter) of God. The Amplified Bible reads: Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]. NEVER WERE.

much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)." Hebrews12:25

Who are those who turn away from God? Those who draw back to perdition and not those who believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39).

How is the theme of the whole chapter (and really all of Hebrews) not continuously teaching against "turning away from salvation", against "forsaking our being born-again and because of sin no longer being God's sons"?

Where do you see the words "turn away from salvation," forsaking being born-again" and no longer being God's sons?

That's the point of the discussions --- to consider each person's point-of-view, and to answer the verses cited. If understanding #1 above (of Heb12:7-9) is chosen, then it's appropriate to ask why an abrupt subject-change is perceived in the middle, and how verse 25 (and 15 also!) fit.

What is so hard to believe about an abrupt subject change? In a large group of people it's not hard to find professing believers mixed in with genuine believers. As long as these Hebrews were still considering what they heard, they had not yet fallen away from God (vs. 25). Once they refuse to mix with faith what they heard (Hebrews 4:2) and draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul, then they turned away from God. If you fall short of the grace of God (vs. 15) then you fall short of having access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2).

[Indueseason]

Gadgeteer, I'm sorry I meant it in jest, in response to PP's comment. I see the bible like a jigsaw puzzle, all the verses, like all the puzzle pieces, must come together for the full picture to be seen. As for the picture I see? My name says it all (Indueseason) It's taken from this verse

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

Thanks for the blessings and hug

blessings to you again

[Bandit]

It was an attempt at humor. Guess you new guys don't know me that well but the old-timers would pick right up on it.

I'm not that old yet.

[episkopos]

Gadgeteer, I'm sorry I meant it in jest, in response to PP's comment. I see the bible like a jigsaw puzzle, all the verses, like all the puzzle pieces, must come together for the full picture to be seen. As for the picture I see? My name says it all (Indueseason) It's taken from this verse

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

Thanks for the blessings and hug

blessings to you again

Very good!!!!

[Gadgeteer]

It was an attempt at humor. Guess you new guys don't know me that well but the old-timers would pick right up on it.

Yeah, I'm still a little new, sorry!

Yeah Gadgeteer...he hates this discussion.

NOT!

Heh heh --- it's not that I like arguing. I've been very transparent about my motivations.

In Scripture I see warning after warning after warning for us to "guard ourselves against deceivers, keep ourselves in His love, abide in His teachings so that we save ourselves" (Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:15, Jude20-21, 1Tim4:16, 2Pet1:5-11 etc). I hear about revivals, how one year later more than 95% of those who "made a commitment to Jesus" at a revival are no longer believers. I've read stories of those who have "deconverted". I still pray my heart out for a young lady I worked with whom you would have taken for the "classic example of a Christian", but who deconverted, divorced, and now posts as an atheist. She was "never saved"? Impossible; she posted with faith and love.

That is my deepest conviction and concern --- to gain each of you as a real brother or sister, not as a "spiritual scalp belt" but as true family forever. It is the greatest way I can love you.

I don't give a rat's left toenail if we come to complete agreement; only if we embody love and fellowship, and end up closer to Christ and more acquainted with the Word. Each of us, just as Paul did in Philip2:16, measures our own success in terms of how those we know persevere.

My ultimate success, for Jesus' glory, will be to have planted a seed. If in a time of temptation or persecution or affliction, something we've discussed comes back to mind and strengthens someone in Christ, then for payment I will accept with serious joy a hug from you who were strengthened. For it was really JESUS who gave you the strength.

We debate, not for personal win, but for Christ's glory, to sharpen and to be sharpened. We converse so that we fulfill our ambassadorship (2Cor5:20); that the world will read BETWEEN our words and will discover Jesus, and will want what we have. For what they know of Him, they know from us. May they always see Him IN us, enough that His love will win their hearts.

...which is to say, may each of us (regardless of differences!) be close enough to His heart that His love is our love!

[episkopos]

Yeah, I'm still a little new, sorry!
Heh heh --- it's not that I like arguing. I've been very transparent about my motivations.

In Scripture I see warning after warning after warning for us to "guard ourselves against deceivers, keep ourselves in His love, abide in His teachings so that we save ourselves" (Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:15, Jude20-21, 1Tim4:16, 2Pet1:5-11 etc). I hear about revivals, how one year later more than 95% of those who "made a commitment to Jesus" at a revival are no longer believers. I've read stories of those who have "deconverted". I still pray my heart out for a young lady I worked with whom you would have taken for the "classic example of a Christian", but who deconverted, divorced, and now posts as an atheist. She was "never saved"? Impossible; she posted with faith and love.

That is my deepest conviction and concern --- to gain each of you as a real brother or sister, not as a "spiritual scalp belt" but as true family forever. It is the greatest way I can love you.

I don't give a rat's left toenail if we come to complete agreement; only if we embody love and fellowship, and end up closer to Christ and more acquainted with the Word. Each of us, just as Paul did in Philip2:16, measures our own success in terms of how those we know persevere.

My ultimate success, for Jesus' glory, will be to have planted a seed. If in a time of temptation or persecution or affliction, something we've discussed comes back to mind and strengthens someone in Christ, then for payment I will accept with serious joy a hug from you who were strengthened. For it was really JESUS who gave you the strength.

We debate, not for personal win, but for Christ's glory, to sharpen and to be sharpened. We converse so that we fulfill our ambassadorship (2Cor5:20); that the world will read BETWEEN our words and will discover Jesus, and will want what we have. For what they know of Him, they know from us. May they always see Him IN us, enough that His love will win their hearts.

...which is to say, may each of us (regardless of differences!) be close enough to His heart that His love is our love!

good way of putting the main thing as the main thing.