Eternal Security (Once Saved Always Saved)

[The Parson]

I do have a simple, child like question though. If the soul can be released from the bonds of the Holy Spirits seal, what need is there for a seal in the first place?

[ProjectPeter]

There is nothing in the above that disagrees at all with the traditional, orthodox protestant view of Justification IMO.

One places their faith in Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death alone (apart from any works they may do) as what makes them right with God and one is justified. (Justification).

One then continues in belief and produces the works that flow from a justified position. (Sanctification).

One then, after death, is raised from the dead and given a glorified body that is sinless and death free. (Glorification).

So, the doctrine of justification is a biblical doctrine and it is certainly defendable from the scripture, without "paste bits and pieces together". In fact Romans 4 plainly states the exact doctrine.

Just a bit more on justification

I would venture to say that should anyone believe differently than that then they are in great danger. I doubt that anyone in this thread would disagree with this... hope not anyway. It is when we get down to the finer points... that is where we get into that whole "we are speaking the same language but means something a bit different" thing. I guess that is the point I was making with Tim. Certainly not that he was taking anything out of context!!! I agree with the basic idea that justified is justified and would put a great big PERIOD on the end of that. What Paul was saying was simple. In Christ we are justified... something that the Law could never do. You are free from things now that you could never have been freed from under the Law of Moses.

[ProjectPeter]

I do have a simple, child like question though. If the soul can be released from the bonds of the Holy Spirits seal, what need is there for a seal in the first place?

Is that speaking of being sealed up like in a tupperware container or is it speaking of simply being marked... like they used to do with the letters in placing a wax seal on the paper with a marking in the wax... often by pressing a crest ring or the like on the wax. I think most think it speaking of sealed up so nothing can leak out... but the definition allows for either with being stamped the primary definition. That being said... it comes down to what one believes doctrinally elsewhere how that is defined.

sphragizo

to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest: -- (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

This is the word that it comes from.

sphragis --

a signet (as fencing in or protecting from misappropriation); by implication, the stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy, or genuineness), literally or figuratively: -- seal.

[Toolman]

I would venture to say that should anyone believe differently than that then they are in great danger. I doubt that anyone in this thread would disagree with this... hope not anyway.

Well, we have seen it before but hopefully it is those rare cases.

It is when we get down to the finer points... that is where we get into that whole "we are speaking the same language but means something a bit different" thing.

Sure, I mean we basically have 3 viewpoints here I would imagine in the big picure:

1) Arminian/Free-will that believe that once someone is justified they can forfeit their justification through rejecting Christ as Saviour and literal unbelief (and hyper-arminian who believe you can forfeit it through sin).

2) Arminian/Free-will that believe that once a person is justified there is nothing they can do to lose that justification. God will never let them slip so far as to deny Christ (and hyper free-grace who believe you can even deny Christ and still not lose it).

3) Reformed that believe that God gives the believer everything they need to be saved including faith, works, perseverance, even changing their will to desire Christ and hate sin.

So, yeah, those 3 positions of theology are ALWAYS going to be viewing and understanding things in somewhat different lights. 1 and 2 will have more similiar ground than they will have with 3 because of the vast difference.

I know I'm not saying anything you don't know already (for the umpteenth time) but just for those who are reading to understand why there is this varience.

[Centurionoflight]

ProjectPeter

And you still haven't shown where this is speaking of physical death. You are addressing everything but the fact that it says that they are JUDGED as ADVERSARIES. You have jumped to every other passage that you can think of to jump too and yet you are not addressing the very passage that we are speaking of.

I have shown it.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


You are being un reasonable.

I have to show every little thing;

Yet you fail to address any whole doctrines; rather you blantly ignore them.

I am done with these one sided conversations.

[ProjectPeter]

Well, we have seen it before but hopefully it is those rare cases.



Sure, I mean we basically have 3 viewpoints here I would imagine in the big picure:

1) Arminian/Free-will that believe that once someone is justified they can forfeit their justification through rejecting Christ as Saviour and literal unbelief (and hyper-arminian who believe you can forfeit it through sin).

2) Arminian/Free-will that believe that once a person is justified there is nothing they can do to lose that justification. God will never let them slip so far as to deny Christ (and hyper free-grace who believe you can even deny Christ and still not lose it).

3) Reformed that believe that God gives the believer everything they need to be saved including faith, works, perseverance, even changing their will to desire Christ and hate sin.

So, yeah, those 3 positions of theology are ALWAYS going to be viewing and understanding things in somewhat different lights. 1 and 2 will have more similiar ground than they will have with 3 because of the vast difference.

I know I'm not saying anything you don't know already (for the umpteenth time) but just for those who are reading to understand why there is this varience.

Yeah... tis the nature of a bunch of folks getting together and yapping about the Bible on a message board!

[ProjectPeter]

ProjectPeter


I have shown it.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


You are being un reasonable.

I have to show every little thing;

Yet you fail to address any whole doctrines; rather you blantly ignore them.

I am done with these one sided conversations.

Um.... how much more? How much worse? That passage isn't setting up the way they are judged. It is simply a correlation between those that died because they disobeyed the Law of Moses and those who trample the blood of Christ under their feet as if it was unclean. That is not negating what the writer says a few verses later. They are JUDGED and they are judged as ADVERSARIES of God. Where do you find anywhere in the Scripture where a child of God is judged as an enemy of God? You want to show doctrine... show that. If you cannot show that then this passage isn't speaking of children of God. It is speaking of enemies of God. But then your snag... we know that they were once children of God and that is why you can't draw a line touching the two. It is a classic case of where our doctrine helps dictate how we look at other passages. Another point that Toolman makes on many occasions.

As to your being "done"... it happens often enough so used to that by now.

[Centurionoflight]

ProjectPeter

Um.... how much more? How much worse? That passage isn't setting up the way they are judged. It is simply a correlation between those that died because they disobeyed the Law of Moses and those who trample the blood of Christ under their feet as if it was unclean. That is not negating what the writer says a few verses later. They are JUDGED and they are judged as ADVERSARIES of God. Where do you find anywhere in the Scripture where a child of God is judged as an enemy of God? You want to show doctrine... show that. If you cannot show that then this passage isn't speaking of children of God. It is speaking of enemies of God. But then your snag... we know that they were once children of God and that is why you can't draw a line touching the two. It is a classic case of where our doctrine helps dictate how we look at other passages. Another point that Toolman makes on many occasions.

I have shown this also;

And you continue to ignore.


1 cor 11

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep{death and judgement of the flesh}.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

We have a judgement even to the death of a believer, to preserve the believer from the same condemnation of the the lost.


This exact concept is what is stated in

Hebrews 10.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The lord Judging his people is a referance to a form of body.

And you are being very liberal in your read ing of the " ADVERSARIES of God."



The verse states.

heb 10

27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

They oppose truth; God will judge them for that because they are HIS to judge, and in this judgement he does, he preserves them.

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

They are still HIS PEOPLE; even while he is judgeing them.




God is holding fast their salvation thru his judgement of them; even to the their death.

1 cor 11

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The concept is again found in Pauls writing;
1 Corinthians 5:5

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The flesh is destroyed; so that the spirit is saved.



Christ keeps our spirit even thru the judgement he puts upon us.


I have established a precedence for the doctrine;

Of the judgement is upon the flesh; but Christ saves the spirit.
Thru not only the use of this passage; but also the other passages refering to the same doctrine. Which i have referanced.


You have established no such thing.

Your point therefore is with out precedence and is nothing more than your unfounded opinion; not doctrine.

Thus thanks for sharing it.

[The Parson]

A signet seal is the very sign of authority you will find in Revelation my friends. None the less, Paul, knowing whom he had placed his trust said plainly: 2nd Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

What did Paul deliver to the Lord that he knew would be kept and again, what day was he talking about?

[John146]

Can anyone give an example of someone that is talked about in the Bible that lost their salvation? I'm not aware of any cases of this. If anyone thinks they know of someone then please share the Scripture.

Let's extend this even further. Does anyone here know of someone who you believe lost their salvation? Or at least that you think lost their salvation? We don't want to judge anyone, of course. But do you know anyone who you feel was once saved and now you feel that they are not? If so, please tell us exactly how you think that they lost their salvation. Please be specific.

Eric

[Redeemed by Grace]

Can anyone give an example of someone that is talked about in the Bible that lost their salvation? I'm not aware of any cases of this. If anyone thinks they know of someone then please share the Scripture.

Let's extend this even further. Does anyone here know of someone who you believe lost their salvation? Or at least that you think lost their salvation? We don't want to judge anyone, of course. But do you know anyone who you feel was once saved and now you feel that they are not? If so, please tell us exactly how you think that they lost their salvation. Please be specific.

Eric

Hi Eric,


My 2 cents.

Your question is a hard question to answer - for we would be in a position to judge another's saved condition first, which there are areas that we are allowed to, but most are hard to....


Here are the areas where I see that biblically we are to:

We can say that all men are sinners and that all are lost without Christ, for that's what the Word states, so we can judge those without Christ as being lost, for the purpose to share the Gospel in hope and love.

We can also see a brother or sister in Christ walking astray from the word, and we are commanded to 'get involved' to correct them from blatant sin so they may be 'restored', again in hope and love.

We can see fruit of the Spirit and see the love of Christ within each other and that can confirm and encourage us within our own heart that another is in Christ.

And of course, we are to examine ourselves daily to see if we are in the faith, making sure that we are Christ's

But to say one was lost, then saved, and then becomes lost again, I do not see a biblical bases to proclaim this.

Now some here will point to King Saul and to Judas as being "saved" and then lost again, but my position - based on the full consul of God's word -- is that their actions were one who didn't know the Lord as Savior, so they were never called into salvation. For God states salvation is His, His to give and to keep and thus why each of us needs to examine our own lives daily to make sure Christ is within us.


What also needs to be understood is 'look-alike' Christians... those that the bible calls the tares... are they really Christians to begin with, and are they discernable by man?

Again, tough question to answer... and one that this board 'fights' over daily... [Expect a rebuttal to my comments shortly... ]




For God's Glory...

[Pilgrimtozion]

Can anyone give an example of someone that is talked about in the Bible that lost their salvation? I'm not aware of any cases of this. If anyone thinks they know of someone then please share the Scripture.

Let's extend this even further. Does anyone here know of someone who you believe lost their salvation? Or at least that you think lost their salvation? We don't want to judge anyone, of course. But do you know anyone who you feel was once saved and now you feel that they are not? If so, please tell us exactly how you think that they lost their salvation. Please be specific.

Eric

Absolutely. A Biblical example is Demas, who at one point traveled around with Paul but is later stated to have left him for the world.

I have personally had two very close friends in Bible school who have both turned their backs on God. One might say that they were never saved to begin with, but one of the two actually got radically saved off the street, being delivered from drugs, illicit sex, and everything else that comes with that kind of life. He came to Bible school on fire for God and a true calling on his life. By the time he graduated, he had delved so deeply in apologetics without strengthening his faith that he now calls himself an atheist when it comes to the Bible and an agnostic when it comes to God.

The other person grew up in a Christian family as a PK. She learned all the gigs, words, lines, etc. She had a relationship with God, but not a strong one. Her pull towards the world was too strong and in the end, she followed herself instead of God. She is now pursuing a career on stage and in music in LA, living together with her boyfriend, and serving God 'in her own way' as some people like to say.

So do I know people who have left God? Absolutely? Were they saved? You bet they were. You can produce all the arguments you think will defend your position of OSAS. In the end, the man with an experience is not at the mercy of the man with a (perceived) argument. I suggest you go talk with these two people. They were close to my heart. We sang together, worshiped together, sought God together. I went one way, they went the other. It pains my heart still, but the facts are there.

If you want to argue, by all means, argue with the practical reality of things.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Absolutely. A Biblical example is Demas, who at one point traveled around with Paul but is later stated to have left him for the world.

I have personally had two very close friends in Bible school who have both turned their backs on God. One might say that they were never saved to begin with, but one of the two actually got radically saved off the street, being delivered from drugs, illicit sex, and everything else that comes with that kind of life. He came to Bible school on fire for God and a true calling on his life. By the time he graduated, he had delved so deeply in apologetics without strengthening his faith that he now calls himself an atheist when it comes to the Bible and an agnostic when it comes to God.

The other person grew up in a Christian family as a PK. She learned all the gigs, words, lines, etc. She had a relationship with God, but not a strong one. Her pull towards the world was too strong and in the end, she followed herself instead of God. She is now pursuing a career on stage and in music in LA, living together with her boyfriend, and serving God 'in her own way' as some people like to say.

So do I know people who have left God? Absolutely? Were they saved? You bet they were. You can produce all the arguments you think will defend your position of OSAS. In the end, the man with an experience is not at the mercy of the man with a (perceived) argument. I suggest you go talk with these two people. They were close to my heart. We sang together, worshiped together, sought God together. I went one way, they went the other. It pains my heart still, but the facts are there.

If you want to argue, by all means, argue with the practical reality of things.

Hi PtZ...

Gee... not sure if I should engage or just leave this be....

Well here goes.... Experiences are great for a resume, for it shows someone else what we've learned, what we have accomplished and maybe what we have struggled with, but experience in faith outside of walking in the word, can be a false teacher.

You offer up the experiences of your friends, for which we all have friends like they.... but I can't see how you can judge that they were saved in the first place in order to loose it....

Here's a counter experience, maybe you can relate... Has anyone ever come up to you and thought you were someone else? Maybe they see you as someone they know... maybe by your looks, maybe by your voice or speech, your mannerisms? And maybe they need a lot of convincing that you are not that person... but without your statement that you are not, they would not know.


Celebrity impersonators, good impersonators, make a living on being somebody that they are not.... Now they do this on purpose, but look-alike Christians, may not know that they are until they die. I'd say with your two friends [and to the many friends like them], and based on your testimony, that they may have learned that they were never really true to faith way before the Lord called them to die.... so maybe they need a friend like you to 'bring them back' or witneess to them now, again for the 1st time? In either case, I can't see you knowing for sure that they were ever saved in the first place, but only speculate... particularly if you base it by their looks or actions, instead of their heart, can you?


So my comment is to continue to share the Love of Christ and their need to repent of their sinful ways and to put your trust that the Lord will work on their heart in true salvation...

And I feel your pain in the friendships...


For God's glory...

[Toolman]

John 2:18-20 - Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things

Now, here John specifically says that antichrists (atheists, unbelievers, heretics) have come out from inside the Church. He says they were once "with us" (claimed to be Christian) but were not "of us" (were not truly in Christ) for IF they had been "of us" (truly in Christ) they would have continued with us (in the faith of Christ).

But their going out was that they might be made manifest that they were not "of us" (truly in Christ).

When someone truly leaves the faith it is for the purpose of manifesting that they were never truly in Christ. This is God's purpose for their leaving.

So, John is expressly clear here that true believers who in the true faith remain and those who leave are manifesting that they were never truly in Christ.

Remember Christ said there would be false Christs who if possible would deceive even the elect. If there are false Christs then you can be sure there are false Christians who can deceive (even themselves) and John expressly and plainly states that is the case.

[ProjectPeter]

ProjectPeter

I have shown this also;

And you continue to ignore.


1 cor 11

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep{death and judgement of the flesh}.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

We have a judgement even to the death of a believer, to preserve the believer from the same condemnation of the the lost.


This exact concept is what is stated in

Hebrews 10.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The lord Judging his people is a referance to a form of body.

And you are being very liberal in your read ing of the " ADVERSARIES of God."



The verse states.

heb 10

27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

They oppose truth; God will judge them for that because they are HIS to judge, and in this judgement he does, he preserves them.

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

They are still HIS PEOPLE; even while he is judgeing them.




God is holding fast their salvation thru his judgement of them; even to the their death.

1 cor 11

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The concept is again found in Pauls writing;
1 Corinthians 5:5

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The flesh is destroyed; so that the spirit is saved.



Christ keeps our spirit even thru the judgement he puts upon us.


I have established a precedence for the doctrine;

Of the judgement is upon the flesh; but Christ saves the spirit.
Thru not only the use of this passage; but also the other passages refering to the same doctrine. Which i have referanced.


You have established no such thing.

Your point therefore is with out precedence and is nothing more than your unfounded opinion; not doctrine.

Thus thanks for sharing it.

Actually you are trying to mesh passages that don't mesh. The Corinthian passage for example. It doesn't make clear that these folks were judged as adversaries of God. The Hebrews passage does make that clear. How does God judge the adversary... what is their fate eternally?