Depart From Me Ye That Work Iniquity

[Braves27]

1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is notmade for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Read the scripture you posted. I was going to post the exact same scripture. Read it harder, please.

Or I could just do this:

1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

[Jesusinmyheart]

Ummm, that's what I said. When I said "by nature" I meant it will be a natural thing to us, because of our love for him, it's our "new" nature.

Ok saved7, i thougth you meant the same but wasn't sure.
Seems we're on the same page, though i would say that doing the right thing doesn't always come naturally, even when we do love Him, since we're all still living in these fleshly bodies.

[diffangle]

Prime example, desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Have you ever been guilty of being angry at your brother?

[jiggyfly]

Read the scripture you posted. I was going to post the exact same scripture. Read it harder, please.

Or I could just do this:

I would challenge you to do the same. I used to believe very simular to the way you do, some time ago. But now I see things quite differently. I used to be very involved with the religious institution, which generally mixes the two covenants together. But now many of the things which I thought were important, I now know that they are only distractions to what is important, I know these things because Father is revealing Christ in me. He has preeminence over everything.

[RSiscoe]

When we are speaking about the law, I think it is necessary to distinguish between 1.) the natural law, which is the law "written in our hearts" (Romans 2:15); 2.) the Divine Eternal law (the 10 commandments); and 3.) the ceremonial, dietary, and sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, which were laws pertaining specifically to the Jewish religion, and which are now no longer binding

When the New Testament says we are not under "the law", and are not saved by "the works of the law" it is referring to the ceremonial, sacrificial, and dietary laws contained in the Old Testament; not the 10 commandments or the "natural law" which is stamped upon the rational mind of man. These laws are still binding upon man; and if we violate them we are guilty of sin (iniquity). That is why the New Testament often states that we must keep the 10 commandments.

1 John 2:3-5: "And hereby do we know that we know him, if we keep His commandments. He that sayeth I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in Him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected, hereby know we that we are in Him"(1 Jn 2:3-5)

1 Cor 6: 9-10: "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liars with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."

Obedience to the 10 commandments is still binding. In fact, according to our Lord, if we desire to know the truth of God, obeying the commandments is necessary.

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith to him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him: If a man loveth me, he will keep my words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings" (Jn 14:22-24).

When asked how a person would come to know the truth, Truth Itself said that loving God, as expressed through obedience to the commandments of God was the way a person would come to the truth.

"If you love Me" said Jesus, "keep My commandments" (Jn 14:15).

So, as we can see, we are not completely without the law. We are not under the old law; instead, we are still under the law of Christ, as we read on Corinthians:

1 Cor 9: "And I became to the Jews a Jew, that I might gain the Jews: To them that are under the law, as if I were under the law (whereas I myself was not under the law), that I might gain them that were under the law. To them that were without the law [meaning the old Testament law], as if I were without the law, (whereas I was not without the law, but was under the law of Christ)...

Paul knew he was no longer subject to the Jewish "law" (the ceremonial, sacrificial, and dietary laws of the Jewish religion), but realized that he was still subject to "the law of Christ". What is this law of Christ?

The law of Christ is the Eternal law of God (as expressed in the 10 commandments) internalized; that is, it is the 10 commandments being obeyed from the heart: not just according to the letter, but according to the spirit.

The old Law required obedience according to the letter; whereas the new Law - "the Law of Christ" - requires obedience from the heart, for the heart is the source from which sin comes forth:

"For from within out of the heart of men proceeds evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these things come from within, and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).

The "law of Christ" forbids violations of the commandments, not just according to the letter, but according to the spirit - from the heart.

That is why, in the Sermon on the Mount, Our dear Lord said: "You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Mt, 5:27-28).

If you read the writings of the Fathers of the Church, you will find that they all knew this. Obedience to the law of Christ is necessary; and violations of this law (even spiritual violations) are "iniquity".

When Jesus said "depart from me ye workers of iniquity", He was referring to those who lived lives contrary to the spirit of the 10 commandments. Not necessarily those who slipped from time to time and repented of their sins, but rather those who lived unrepentant in sin. These are the ones who our Lord "never knew". They may have thought they knew Him, but, in reality, He never knew them.

[jiggyfly]

When we are speaking about the law, I think it is necessary to distinguish between 1.) the natural law, which is the law "written in our hearts" (Romans 2:15); 2.) the Divine Eternal law (the 10 commandments); and 3.) the ceremonial, dietary, and sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, which were laws pertaining specifically to the Jewish religion, and which are now no longer binding

I cannot find where any of the writers the new testament made any of these distinctions given by you in the new testament scriptures.

[ravi4u2]

The apostles (New Testament) and the prophets (the Old Testament) are contained in this; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself."

[Braves27]

I would challenge you to do the same. I used to believe very simular to the way you do, some time ago. But now I see things quite differently. I used to be very involved with the religious institution, which generally mixes the two covenants together. But now many of the things which I thought were important, I now know that they are only distractions to what is important, I know these things because Father is revealing Christ in me. He has preeminence over everything.

The problem is that it's a distraction. This is not supposed to be such a big point of strife-or even a big point of discussion-and it's a shame that it is. It's just supposed to be done.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I cannot find where any of the writers the new testament made any of these distinctions given by you in the new testament scriptures.

Yeah, the dietary laws are still binding. "Ceremonial" is kind of vague, and sacrificial are obviously not to be done because Christ was our sacrifice.

[jiggyfly]

I am bowing out, I don't see the point of us hashing out our point of views over and over again. I see the new covenant in a different light than you all and we don't seem to interpret the scriptures the same either. I can't see any benefit from continuing this debate any longer. Good day

[RSiscoe]

Yeah, the dietary laws are still binding. "Ceremonial" is kind of vague, and sacrificial are obviously not to be done because Christ was our sacrifice.

You believe the dietary laws of the Jewish religion, such as not eating pork, are still binding? If these laws, which are not contained in the 10 commandments, nor in the natural law stamped upon our heart, are still binding, then what part of the law has been nullified?

In Acts 10, the white sheet descending three times signified that the unclean animals had been cleansed, thereby nullifying the dietary laws contained in the old law which forbade eating unclean animals:

Acts 10: 9-16: "And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey, and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour. And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind. And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. And this was done thrice; and presently the vessel was taken up into heaven."

In Colosians, Paul tells them not to allow the Jews to judge them for eating meat, or not taking part in the ceremonies of the festival days, since these were merely a shadow of what was to come:

Col 2:16-26: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a festive day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come...".

When Paul speaks of "the works of the law" in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, that is what he is referring to. He is not referring to the 10 commandments, the violation of which is still forbidden.

This is evident when you consider that the New Testament repeatedly states that we are not under the law, yet also repeatedly states that we must keep the commandments. And when asked which commandments we are to keep to "enter into life", Jesus listed them (Mt 19:17-18).

At the end of the first letter to Timothy, Paul expressly tells him to keep the commandments:

1 Tim 6:13,14: "I charge thee before God... that thou keep the commandments without spot, blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The same apostle who repeatedly said that we are no longer "under the law", and should not follow the law, also says that we are still bound by the commandments. What does this show us? It shows that there is a distinction between the 10 commandments that were given directly by God Himself, and the 600 + additional commandments given by Mosses.

It is the additional 600 + commandmentsl or "laws" which constitute the "law" that Paul often speaks of. I believe this was obvious to those who Paul wrote to and thus needed no explanation.

We have to keep in mind the times in which the New Testament was written. It was wriitten at a time when most of the Christians were converts from Judaism. These people had been followers of the "law" all their lives, and their parents and grandparent before them. The law was deeply ingrained into them.

This is why the Judaizers had such success. They sought to incorporate the "works of the law" (circumcision, etc.) in with the Christian religion. It was these Judaizers that Paul often condended with in his epistles, especially the ones to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians. These were all written against the errors of the Judaizers who sought to incorporate "the works of the law" in with the Christian faith.

[diffangle]

You believe the dietary laws of the Jewish religion, such as not eating pork, are still binding? If these laws, which are not contained in the 10 commandments, nor in the natural law stamped upon our heart, are still binding, then what part of the law has been nullified?

The sacrifice for sin has been atoned for by you know who. I believe the dietary laws are definately a good thing. Yahushua and the Apostles were kosher, Yahushua was Perfect... meaning He didn't transgress the Torah. There's actually scientific/health reasons also why eating pork is really bad for you (amazing how YHWH knows these things before we do ). Here's an excerpt from a book by Sanford R. Howard...

"O.S. Parrett, M.d., Who has made an extensive study of disease in food animals, declares: 'Very rigorous food inspection was carried out by the priests who served as medical officers. Moses forbade the use of both swine's flesh and shellfish; and it may be pertinent to remark the gentile world, which largely ignores these health rules, shows an estimated occurrence of trichina infection among adults in the U.S of twenty-five percent- according to the research of two San Francisco doctors, reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Post-mortem examination by these doctors of pieces of the diaphragm muscles from 100 bodies showed 23 harboring trichinea, and from the second 100 they were able to demonstrate 25 positive cases. Every fifth pork sausage from the best markets was found to contain living trichinea'."

"After the infested pork is eaten, the worms are set free in the stomach of the host by gastric digestion, where the males and females mate, following where the females produce a large amount of larvae. Through the blood stream or the lymphatic these larvae quickly migrate into the tissue, finding lodgment mainly in muscle tissue throughout the body, especially in the diaphragm muscle."

He also says that that trichinosis alot of times gets mistakenly diagnosed as influenza or muscular rheumatism and that it probally affects one out of four people.

Here's what YHWH has to say about eating swine's flesh...

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to My face;... which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

In Acts 10, the white sheet descending three times signified that the unclean animals had been cleansed, thereby nullifying the dietary laws contained in the old law which forbade eating unclean animals:

Acts 10: 9-16: "And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey, and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour. And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind. And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. And this was done thrice; and presently the vessel was taken up into heaven."

That vision had nothing to do with food... it was about showing him that it was okay to go speak the Gospel to the gentiles. Look ahead in verses 19-24...

19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

In Colosians, Paul tells them not to allow the Jews to judge them for eating meat, or not taking part in the ceremonies of the festival days, since these were merely a shadow of what was to come:

Col 2:16-26: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a festive day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come...".

He was telling the believer's to not let the pagans judge them for observing the Scriptural observations... as he says, those things(Scriptural observations) are shadows of things to come. Eventually the pagan's started forcing the believer's to observe the pagan celebrations and forsake the Scriptural observations... they made it punishable by death to observe what He has Commanded us to do.

It is the additional 600 + commandmentsl or "laws" which constitute the "law" that Paul often speaks of. I believe this was obvious to those who Paul wrote to and thus needed no explanation.

We have to keep in mind the times in which the New Testament was written. It was wriitten at a time when most of the Christians were converts from Judaism. These people had been followers of the "law" all their lives, and their parents and grandparent before them. The law was deeply ingrained into them.

This is why the Judaizers had such success. They sought to incorporate the "works of the law" (circumcision, etc.) in with the Christian religion. It was these Judaizers that Paul often condended with in his epistles, especially the ones to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians. These were all written against the errors of the Judaizers who sought to incorporate "the works of the law" in with the Christian faith.

There are two Torah's in Judaism, there is the written Torah and the oral Torah. The written is the true Word of YHWH and the oral is all man-made laws and traditions that most Jews hold higher than the actual true Torah. Judaizer's were those who wanted to keep the burdensome yolk of the oral law on the people. As the Messiah said, " Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets;... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

Peace

[Braves27]

well...diff just about said everything I could have.

[Braves27]

well....just to drive the point home with Acts 10:

First, read verse 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate.
So, he didn't know what the vision meant. But he was pretty sure it didn't actually mean all food was clean.

Now, to pickup where he left off:


Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;so, here's this Roman, this Gentile, who a Israelite was not even supposed to be keeping company with but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. And now Peter knows what the vision meant----that he should not call any MAN common or unclean.
Praise YHWH

[RSiscoe]

Here's what YHWH has to say about eating swine's flesh...

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to My face;... which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

Do you think eating pork is still forbidden?

[diffangle]

Do you think eating pork is still forbidden?

Imo, yes... I won't go near the stuff.