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Thread: Depart From Me Ye That Work Iniquity

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSiscoe
    Acts 10: "And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common.
    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle View Post
    That vision had nothing to do with food... it was about showing him that it was okay to go speak the Gospel to the gentiles. Look ahead in verses 19-24...
    How can you say it had nothing to do with food? The voice told him to "kill and eat". To which Peter replied "I never did eat any think that is common or unclean". Then, the voice responded: "that which God hath cleansed, do not call common".

    The subject is dealing with eating unclean food, which the voice said "God hath cleansed". So how can you say it has nothing to do with food? You have to ignore the subject to make that claim.

    Now, after this vision Peter is sent to the Gentile Cornelius, and, in my opinion, this is not unrelated to the sheet descending three times (since it probably also signified that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean), but you cannot apply it to the Gentiles only and ignore what is explicitly said. And what was explicitly said is this "Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common", thereby showing that the unclean meats had been made clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by RSiscoe
    Col 2:16-26: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a festive day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come...".
    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle
    He was telling the believer's to not let the pagans judge them for observing the Scriptural observations... as he says, those things(Scriptural observations) are shadows of things to come. Eventually the pagan's started forcing the believer's to observe the pagan celebrations and forsake the Scriptural observations... they made it punishable by death to observe what He has Commanded us to do.
    He is referring to the Judaizers who were attempting to have the Christians incorporate the Jewish law in with Christianity (which, based on your posts, seems to be an error you yourself have fallen into). They mingled Christianity with the works of the law - the deitary laws, ceremonial laws (such as circumcision, etc.) with the Christian religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle
    There are two Torah's in Judaism, there is the written Torah and the oral Torah. The written is the true Word of YHWH and the oral is all man-made laws and traditions that most Jews hold higher than the actual true Torah. Judaizer's were those who wanted to keep the burdensome yolk of the oral law on the people.
    If that was true, then circumcision would have been part of the oral Torah, since that is one of the practices the Judaizers promoted, which is why the apostles spent so much time arguing agaisnt this in their epistles.

    You confirmed what I thought. You are like the Judaizers of old. Our Lord did not just do away with the oral law; he fullfilled and nullified the written Torah as well, which is why circumcision - which was part of the written law - is not longer necessary.

    You need to read the book of Hebews, which was written to explain that the Old law merely prefigured what was to come, and is now no more, as well as the letter to the Ephesians and Galations. Read the letter to teh Galatians slowly and carefully and see what it says in chapter 4, beginning in verse 21. I personally have never heard anyone comment on this verse. My guess is that you will be surpised to see what (or who) Paul compares the Old Law to.

    The Old Covenant was revoked when it was fulfilled by Jesus. The Old Testament Levitical priesthood is no more... it doesn't exist. The priest of the old Law were the descendants of Aaron, and the lineage of that priesthood has long since disapeared. God destroyed the Old Covenant almost 2000 years ago, after establishing the New.

    Hebrews: "Now in saying new, he hath made former the old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end" (Heb 8:13).

    It came to its final end in 70AD, a few years after the letter to the Hebrews was written. The Temples was destroyed, the unbelieving Jews were scattered, and the New covenant, which replaced the Old, grew to cover the world.

    "My people did not hear My voice, and Israel harkened not to Me... They gave me gall for My food, and in My thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink... Let their eyes be darkened, and their back bend down always. Pour out Thy indignation upon them: let Thy wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their habitation be made desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in their tabernacles, because they have added to the grief of My wounds. Add Thou iniquity upon their iniquity; and let them not come into Thy justice. Let them be blotten out of the book of the Living, and with the Just let them not be written" (Psalms 80: 12;62:22-29).


    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle
    As the Messiah said, " Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets;... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

    Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.
    Heaven and earth have not pased away, that is true. But what did Jesus say? He said that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the las "til all be fulfilled". Well, what did Jesus come to do? He explains in the portion of the quote that you left out...

    Mt. 5:17: "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill"

    Jesus said the Old law would not pass until it was fulfilled, and Jesus filfilled it. It has now been nullified and replaced with the New, as the book of Hebrews explains.

    I've seen a tendency for years now of Christians attempting to mingle the Old and New laws, which is what the Judaizers of old did, and what you are now doing.

    Beware of this deadly error, which is condemned over and over again in the New Testament.

    Galatians 3:1-10 "O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish, that, whereas you began in the Spirit, you would now be made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so great things in vain? If it be yet in vain. He therefore who giveth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you; doth he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of the faith?

    "As it is written: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing, that God justifieth the Gentiles by faith, told unto Abraham before: In thee shall all nations be blessed. Therefore they that are of faith, shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law, are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them."


    Notice that he says "written in the book of the law", thereby showing that it was not simply the oral Torah that was nullified, but the written on as well.

  2. #107
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    RSiscoe,

    Everything that you are bringing up has already been hashed out in this thread before. I assumed you hadn't really read the whole thing and jumped in so instead of suggesting to you to go back and read the whole thread, I was/am willing to rehash this for your sake... but only if you will be respectful, refrain from name-calling, and actually try to understand what is being posted by those of us that see things differently than you.

    Should we continue?

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle View Post
    RSiscoe,

    Everything that you are bringing up has already been hashed out in this thread before. I assumed you hadn't really read the whole thing and jumped in so instead of suggesting to you to go back and read the whole thread, I was/am willing to rehash this for your sake... but only if you will be respectful, refrain from name-calling, and actually try to understand what is being posted by those of us that see things differently than you.

    Should we continue?
    Probably not. If what I am saying has already been explained in this thread there's probably no reason to continue. As you know, these discussion can take a lot of time. No need for us to spend our time discussing what has already been discussed.

  4. #109
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    How can you ignore Acts 10:17?

    Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry from Simon's house, and stood before the gate



    ....CLEARLY, Peter did not know what the vision meant. Of all the visions and dreams described in the Bible, and the interpretations given, you can't see that they need interpretation? God gave this interpretation to Peter not even a few verses later!

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves27 View Post
    How can you ignore Acts 10:17?

    Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry from Simon's house, and stood before the gate



    ....CLEARLY, Peter did not know what the vision meant. Of all the visions and dreams described in the Bible, and the interpretations given, you can't see that they need interpretation? God gave this interpretation to Peter not even a few verses later!
    In my opinion you are ignoring the obvious because it is not want you want to believe.

    The explanation of the vision was given by the "voice" immediatly after Peter saw the vision. The vision was of the sheet descending. After the sheet descended, the voice told Peter to kill and eat. Peter responded by saying he had never killed and eaten anything unclean, to which the voice responded "That which God hath cleansed, do not call common".

    Acts 10: "And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

    The fact that Peter disputed within himself what the vision meant does not surprise me. Think about it. Peter had just seen an extraordinary vision, along with a voice explaining that what used to be considered unclean and was forbidden, was not cleansed. It makes sense to me that Peter would be wondering about what just happened. "Was the vision from God or the devil", he may have wondered. "Did it really mean that unclean animals are now clean?" etc..

    Maybe Peter was wondering why it was done three times, rather than just once. Remember, after the sheet descended and the voice explained that the unclean meat had been cleansed by God, we are told that the sheet descended again, for a total of three times. Maybe Peter was wondering why it descended the two other times?

    In my opinion, the sheet descending three times probably signifies three unclean things being cleansed. We know that the unclean meat was cleansed because the voice specifically said so. The second time probably signified that the Gentiles were now "cleansed" in such a way that they could be incorporated into the house of Israel - the Church - which Paul refers to as "the Israel of God". I'm not sure what the third time would signify, but i think the fact that the sheet descended three times shows that three different categories of unclean things were cleansed.

  6. #111
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    In my opinion you are ignoring the obvious because it is not want you want to believe.
    Ditto... your choosing rebellion to His Word. The sheet descending three times indicated the three gentiles that would be knocking at the door right after Peter's vision.

    Act 10:7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

    Act 10:8And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

    Act 10:17Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,


    Two household servants plus one devout soldier makes three.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle View Post
    Ditto... your choosing rebellion to His Word. The sheet descending three times indicated the three gentiles that would be knocking at the door right after Peter's vision.

    Act 10:7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

    Act 10:8And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

    Act 10:17Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,


    Two household servants plus one devout soldier makes three.
    What is your interpretation of this:

    Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

    What was cleansed?

  8. #113
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    What was cleansed?
    The gentiles. The Jews in those days thought of the goyim as being impure and seperated themselves from them as some still do to this day. That's why the Apostles were surprised to see Yahushua speaking to the Goyim/Samaritian woman at the well...

    Jhn 4:9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

    Jhn 4:27And upon this came His disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman:

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle View Post
    The gentiles. The Jews in those days thought of the goyim as being impure and seperated themselves from them as some still do to this day.
    Was Peter told to kill and eat the Gentiles?

    Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

    Your telling me that this verse refers to the Gentiles?

  10. #115
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    Was Peter going to kill and eat the Gentiles?
    Are you familiar with metaphor's?

    Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

    Your telling me that this verse refers to the Gentiles?
    Can you provide Scripture to show that Peter arose after that vision and ate unclean meat ever?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle View Post
    Can you provide Scripture to show that Peter arose after that vision and ate unclean meat ever?
    I don't know. I'll have to read through the Bible and see.

    But I can show that no meat is unclean. Jews may think it is unclean, but in reality it no longer is. This was a big issue at the time the Bible was written. The apostles talk about it in several places in the Bible. And it makes perfect sense that it would have been such a big issue.

    Consider that most of the Christians were Jewish converts who had been taught from birth that eating certain meats was against God's law. This had been the practice of their relatives for many generations. It makes sense that some who converted to Christianity, and who were then told that eating these meats was allowed, would have scrupples about it; and may even be scandalized to see other former Jews eating these meats. This subject was addressed by the Aposltes. He instructs the Jewish converts how to deal with this issue. What are they to do if certain Jews are "weak in faith" and do not feel comfortable eating meat? Paul answers this in the book of Romans, where he tells them that nothing is unclean of itself, but that if eating meat scandalizes a brother, it should be avoided for the sake of the one who is weaker in faith. He respects the erroneous consience of the one who is weaker in faith, since the conscience was formed according to a law of God that has now changed. He realizes that it make take some time - and a strengthening of faith - before the erroneous conscience is corrected. After all, eating meat is not contrary to the natural law, but was a dietary law that God gave to the Jews, kind of like the one He gave Adam.

    God forbade Adam from eating the forbidden fruit to test his obedience. Similarly, God gave the Jews their dietary laws to test their obedience, and to separate them from the Gentiles. These laws are not part of any law of nature, and as such can and did change.

    But at first many of the Jews had a problem adjusting thier conscience to such a change, and this is what Paul addresses below:

    Romans 14: "Now him that is weak in faith, take unto you: not in disputes about thoughts. For one believeth that he may eat all things: but he that is weak, let him eat herbs. Let not him that eateth [meat], despise him that eateth not: and he that eateth not [meat], let him not judge him that eateth. For God hath taken him to him.... he that eateth [meats], eateth to the Lord: for he giveth thanks to God. And he that eateth not [meats], to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth thanks to God. ... But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? ... Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother's way. I know, and am confident in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if, because of thy meat, thy brother be grieved, thou walkest not now according to charity. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. It is good not to eat flesh, and not to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother is offended, or scandalized, or made weak. Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Blessed is he that condemneth not himself in that which he alloweth."

    What he is saying here is that no meat is any longer unclean of itself, but that if eating these meats scandalizes the brother who is weaker in faith, they should not eat meat in the presence of the weaker one, so as not to scandalize him.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
    Faithwalker,

    The sacrifices we make today are when we pick up our cross and deny our flesh and bring it into subjection to God's will. How do we know God's will ?
    Look at the Law, and you know it.
    This is why we follow the Law, cause we love Him Who loved us first.
    Jam 1:25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.

    We are not in bondage to sin, or under the Law, by following it, cause Yeshua has died for us, and His blood washes us clean. We have been set free to walk like Him.
    If you are still following the Torah law, you are not following the law of liberty, therefore you are not free at all, but still in bondage. Further, you desire to lay this yoke of bondage upon others. What amazes me is how well this christian fellowship puts up with these efforts to do so.

    This is what it means to have Faith in Him, that if we follow/emulate Him, we will not be condemned even though we fall short.
    Jesus is not nor ever will be a crutch to Moses law, just in case you fall short of keeping them. The law cannot produce the life of Christ in anyone. Only Jesus Christ can do that.


    You're obviously asking me/us to check our faith, and see if i/we are wrong, but you have not yet really opened your mind and eyes to see if we could possibly be right.
    Would it hurt you to take a second look ?
    Those little "contradictions about the Law" will never begin to make sense to you, unless you deny those scriptures that do not fit. OR, you open your mind, and ask God for complete truth as i had done.
    Deny those scriptures that do not fit? Just because you are willing to do that, does not mean I should.

    I went straight to the Word and asked for answers. Do you really think the Word could possibly lead me astray ? Will God when i ask for Truth give me a snake instead ?
    I had NO agenda when i asked God for Truth, i wanted to know Truth, and nothing but the Truth. And that is what i've been given.
    I did not go to church, but completely searched the scriptures, dilligently searched nothing but the Word. When i emerged with the truth, i then learned what "denomination" i belonged to.
    The TRUTH is a person, and can only be found in Jesus Christ, not Jesus Christ AND...

    Do I think the Word (Jesus Christ) would lead you astray. NO.
    But do I think the scripture can, obviously so. You turn to the Torah, which is not even Gods covenant with you, trying to find life that can ONLY be found in Jesus Christ.

    John 5:39 You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life.

    Again I repeat, there is NO LIFE to be found in the Torah, it will only kill those trying to keep it.


    2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
    But there are some among you who do not believe."



    The many miles of my journey have proved my Lord True.
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    Born FREE as a Mustang - no saddles, lassos, stalls or fences. (Gal 5:1)

    You will never rope the wind cowboy. (John 3:8)

    aka Coconut @ Talk Jesus


  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    You are right, it does mean that. But followers of Christ are not under the law.
    And if we try to live according to the law, then we are under the law and not under grace. And we are not able to live according to the law, which is why Christ died for us. To pay for our sins. And it is Christ who is saying "away from me".
    Also, what did Jesus say are the greatest commandments? To love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and the second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself.
    Also, he said somewhere, maybe here, that in this is all the law and the prophets. And the description of love is quite humble, it places others before yourself. It is all connected.
    Wow! So once again, this is referring to the Jewish audience specifically, not the church? This is incredible! So this event must be happening after the rapture of the church since church isn't governed by law but by the Holy Spirit?
    Nothing more. Nothing less.
    My faith in Christ is righteousness!
    Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
    Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSiscoe View Post
    What is your interpretation of this:

    Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

    What was cleansed?
    The world was cleansed!
    Nothing more. Nothing less.
    My faith in Christ is righteousness!
    Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
    Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by joztok View Post
    The world was cleansed!
    You'r probably right. Earlier I said that the three times that the sheet descended sprobably signified three unclean things being cleansed: 1.) the Gentiles, 2.) the unclean foods, and 3.) something else (what else was considered unclean for the Jews? This would answer the question.).

    In other words, the three times the sheet descended signifies that all that was considered unclean under the old Law, was cleansed. This would agree with what you, when you said that "the world was cleansed" - that is, everything in the world that was considered unclean.

    But your answer would include what I have been arguinig, which is, that the unclean foods are no longer unclean.

    Here's the quote in question one more time:

    Acts 10: "And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

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