2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
Thing is 2 Pet... that doesn't get us anywhere in the discussion and folks can banter about back and forth like that all day long. In the end it just produces bent feelings and makes folks look like they haven't a clue what the Bible truly teaches. I know not everyone is going to agree with me and that happens. But patience has to rule the day in most cases. If not then I'm not doing as I should.Originally Posted by 2 Peter 2:20
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
Seated in heavenly places
***
It's simple to get around the passage - it wasn't written to the Christian Church, it was written to Hebrews. The doctrines contained in the book of Hebrews are not for the Christian to apply in this day and age!
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, he specifically wrote to the Christian Churches in the books Romans through to Philemon, and that's where our doctrine for today is found, and Paul taught eternal security for the believer. Paul is the only one who told us to consider what he says and the Lord will give us understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7) and to study the Bible and rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)...so that's what you have to do to undertsand the text from Hebrews and every other verse from the Gospels, Acts, James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude, and Revelation that contradicts what Paul wrote to the Church.
The above teaching is called "Right Division" and it is best understood in light of the Bible being divided into 7 specific dispensations of time where God deals with mankind in a different way, currently we are living in the time of the Gentiles, or the Church Age, and this is no *new* teaching btw. During the Tribulation period and the Millennial reign of Christ the doctrines found in the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, et al will be practised...but until then we follow Paul, who said be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1.
Simple eh!
- Matt -
.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Veteran
I agree 100% and I try not to play that card because if they say they are saved then who am I to say they are lying. If I see their actions then that is a different story but on this forum we can only take their word.
Veteran
SO MUCH FOR THE HARMONY AND INERRANCY OF THE BIBLE!! You have got to be kidding me! If your concept is true where do you draw the line? Someone could take this concept and explain away everything in the Bible. I agree that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but that doesn't completely throw out Peter's and others teachings. I want to show you what Paul says:It's simple to get around the passage - it wasn't written to the Christian Church, it was written to Hebrews. The doctrines contained in the book of Hebrews are not for the Christian to apply in this day and age!
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, he specifically wrote to the Christian Churches in the books Romans through to Philemon, and that's where our doctrine for today is found, and Paul taught eternal security for the believer. Paul is the only one who told us to consider what he says and the Lord will give us understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7) and to study the Bible and rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)...so that's what you have to do to undertsand the text from Hebrews and every other verse from the Gospels, Acts, James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude, and Revelation that contradicts what Paul wrote to the Church.
The above teaching is called "Right Division" and it is best understood in light of the Bible being divided into 7 specific dispensations of time where God deals with mankind in a different way, currently we are living in the time of the Gentiles, or the Church Age, and this is no *new* teaching btw. During the Tribulation period and the Millennial reign of Christ the doctrines found in the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, et al will be practised...but until then we follow Paul, who said be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1.
Simple eh!
Gal 1:2
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Before we get started I wanted to show you who the book of Galatians was written to. Notice that it doesn't say to the unbelievers of Galatia.
Gal 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Why would Paul write these 3 verses to the CHURCHES of Galatia if they were "eternally secure"? Either they (Christians) couldn't commit these sins anymore or they (Christians) could still commit these sins and this is a warning to them that if they do these things they will not INHERIT the kingdom. Which one is it? If you say that believers can't commit these sins then 1 John is wrong. I forgot I can't use 1 John!! Sorry.
I live here!
I have never implied or stated that those who think believers can lose their salvation are not led by the HS. To say this would be an attempt to read another's heart because if the HS is not present to guide the believer then very obviously they are not saved.
The reason that I believe some do not understand we are eternally saved when we are truly in Christ is because it is what they have been taught, in some instances their whole lives. Our theology is what we have been taught. Those who have broken away from the free will mindset, and begin to study Scripture without the preconcieved opinion of free will, can, and have come to understand the truth of eternal security. But I have yet to find a believer who has accepted the Sovereignty of God in salvation who has departed from eternal security to embrace the free will doctine, teaching we can lose what God proclaims is ETERNAL!
Paul himself taught in Corinth for a year and a half (Acts 18:1,11). After he left this very young, and immature church false teachers came in with false doctrine and unbiblical practices. The church begin an internal struggle and the church became divided over issues such as gifts. There were questions raised about marriage, and brother going against brother over matters of law. Some doubted the resurrection, and the sacraments were abused. Some were proud and boastful over their learning, and became very careless in their conduct, and purity of doctrine began to decline. This letter from Paul attempts to deal with these issues as well as many others. So, were those in the church at Corinth truly saved? Yes, some of them were, and they heeded the admonishments, and encouragments from Paul.
You will notice in vs 2 Paul writes, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." In other words to those set apart from all eternity to grace and glory and justified by the blood and righteousness of Christ (He 10:10-14). Not only were they chosen and justified, but they are "called to be saints." They had been called by His HS and by His Word to repentance toward God and imputed with the faith of Christ. This letter is intended for believers in all places who call upon the name of the Lord.
Since many of them fell into various sins, does this then mean that those whom Paul calls "brethren" fell away, lost their salvation? Paul didn't think so. In 15:58 Paul says, "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
I finish answering your question with 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Since Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit assures us that God has given those who were in Christ in the church in Corinth VICTORY through our Lord Jesus Christ, am I to believe God, Who gives me assurance, or you, who says God does not really eternally save those He has purchased with His blood, that we can commit sin and be lost?
RW
I live here!
Do you understand that the universal churches in time represent the Kingdom, and are made up of those who have come into covenant with Christ. This external covenant includes all those who make up the Eternal Covenant in Christ, but it also has false professors, unbelievers, antichrist', wolves in sheep's clothing, tares etc. These who are among believers can bring much strife and division, and lead many to sinful behavior, and false doctrine. Again and again we find in Scripture warnings to keep ourselves pure, and undefiled by these so-called ministhers of righteousness, and this is why Christ gives these warnings to the churches.
It is not because believers will commit any number of sins and lose their salvation, when we are in Christ all of our sins are forgiven. So how could I sin away my salvation? If we are not warned to be on guard we lose the bond of fellowship with one another. When strife and division, along with false teaching, false doctrine comes into the body, the light that once shined brightly begins to grow dim. Christ tells us that when the church becomes so compromised that it is not longer a true church, then He will remove the candlestick, and take what little light is left, and she will be in darkness. This is not losing our salvation, this is losing the source of True Light in the world. And this hinders the building of the Kingdom. Christ will not come again until the Eternal Kingdom of God is complete.
RW
Veteran
RW,
Both ProjectPeter and I have told you that we DO believe in eternal security but only based on 2 Peter 1:3-11.
I want to talk about your opinion now. Not what you think the Bible says or what I think the Bible says. We have discussed this and I don't think either one of us is going to change each others mind. I have the same peace believing that I must continue in the faith as you do believing you have received your goal and no matte what you do it will not change the outcome.
If we were to place odds on the 2 sides of this discussion who do you think would have the best odds. What I'm trying to say is if I live like I can lose it and I can't then I have nothing to lose. I'm a winner either way. If you live like you can't lose it and at the end you find out you could lose it then its too late since we won't find out until we are dead. Who has the most to lose? Only 1 scenario works for you but both scenarios work for me.
Veteran
RW,
Can you commit any sin and still go to Heaven?
I live here!
If we can't we're all doomed! Since all my sins are forgiven through Christ I can rest assured that I will receive my eternal reward. Does that permit me to continue in sin, that grace may abound, heaven forbid! If I don't hate the sin I daily comit, acknowledge and turn from them, then I would say I need to examine my heart to see if I am truly in Christ or merely playing Christian.
When we are in Christ not only are we instantaly convicted through the indwelling Spirit, but our sins also grieve us. It should break our hearts when we sin against our blessed Lord, and every sin we comit in the body is against Him. As we grow in grace and become more and more the image of Christ, our sins too should diminish, and if they are not, and we still delight in them, then again we better examine our hearts because there is a very good chance that we have never become saved.
RW
Preparing
I know someone who believed with all their heart, actually brought another to Christ, bought them a Bible, and now denies the faith.
There was no doubt that they believed. But now have turned their back, and want nothing to do with the Christian faith.
It is indeed possible to fall, turn your back on Christ once one has known Him.
2 Peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
I live here!
threebigrocks,
I mean no disrespect, but no one can truly know whether another is saved or not. For man looks at the outward appearence, but only God knows the heart. There are many who will stand before the Judgment Throne of God on the last day in utter amazement when Christ says, "depart from me all you workers of iniquity, I know you not." Remember also that God tells us that false professors will arise, looking very much like believers. Christ tells us that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, and his ministers into ministers of righteousness. We're warned they look and sound so much like true Christians they could almost fool even the elect of God.
RW
Seated in heavenly places
***
You draw the line at Paul's epistles and use the doctrine he taught to the Churches in Christ as the measuring stick. So if it agrees with Paul you can accept and apply it, but where it disagrees and contradicts Paul you know it is not for you.
No we don't throw them out because all scripture is profitable for us, but not all is written to us to apply as doctrine. All scripture has 3 appications, that of historical, doctrinal, and spiritual. We can still learn many spiritual lessons from Peter, James, and John (who are called apostles to the circumcision (Israel) in Galatians 2:7-9) but the doctrine in their writings is for the Jews in a future time period when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21:24), not the Church.
You are supposing that the "kingdom of God" in Galatians 5:21 is the same kingdom mentioned in Romans 14:17 which is a spiritual kingdom into which a man is born (John 3) in this age, but you would be wrong. The kingdom of God in Galatians 5:21 is an INHERITANCE and this kingdom is earned by service!
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
This kingdom of God, as the one in Acts 1:3, has to do with the appearance of the Kingdom (note "see" in John 3:3-5) when Christ returns (cf. Luke 19:11-27). It is not the "free gift by the grace of God" which places the believer into the kingdom of Colossians 1:13:
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
- Matt -
.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Preparing
It was the fruit they offered, and roots were set in that person. Who in the world would buy someone a Bible and encourge them in the faith if they didn't believe? This was no disguise, this was no falsehood. This was real.
And now the only real part is that this person isn't rooted in anything but the world, quite deeply. They chose to turn. And as I have said, there was no doubt they were rooted in good soil, producing fruit. The plant itself was corrupted, in despite of the roots.
Thing is, they were lured by what surrounded the plant. Drinking for one. They leaned on their own understanding. They didn't resist and flee, but let another angel of darkness disguised as light lead them astry.
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
Not that simple at all really. The Pauline only stuff is a doctrine that is convenient for folks who actually can't make some stuff marry together because they think that Paul taught something differently than Christ and the others. REst assured... he didn't. And if he did then it is that which should be discarded and NOT the rest of Scripture. And Paul himself would have told you that.It's simple to get around the passage - it wasn't written to the Christian Church, it was written to Hebrews. The doctrines contained in the book of Hebrews are not for the Christian to apply in this day and age!
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, he specifically wrote to the Christian Churches in the books Romans through to Philemon, and that's where our doctrine for today is found, and Paul taught eternal security for the believer. Paul is the only one who told us to consider what he says and the Lord will give us understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7) and to study the Bible and rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)...so that's what you have to do to undertsand the text from Hebrews and every other verse from the Gospels, Acts, James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude, and Revelation that contradicts what Paul wrote to the Church.
The above teaching is called "Right Division" and it is best understood in light of the Bible being divided into 7 specific dispensations of time where God deals with mankind in a different way, currently we are living in the time of the Gentiles, or the Church Age, and this is no *new* teaching btw. During the Tribulation period and the Millennial reign of Christ the doctrines found in the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, et al will be practised...but until then we follow Paul, who said be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1.
Simple eh!
Exactly how many gospels do you think there are? And while you are at it... show me exactly where Paul mentions preaching different gospels to different folk? Never had a Pauline only person be able to do that. Perhaps you are the one that can actually show me any such eh?
And I'll ask you to again show me this different gospel?
No we don't throw them out because all scripture is profitable for us, but not all is written to us to apply as doctrine. All scripture has 3 appications, that of historical, doctrinal, and spiritual. We can still learn many spiritual lessons from Peter, James, and John (who are called apostles to the circumcision (Israel) in Galatians 2:7-9) but the doctrine in their writings is for the Jews in a future time period when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21:24), not the Church.
We'll save the rest of this once you have actually shown where your basic premise has merit. You are calling the two gospel thingy... so let's actually see where this is spoken of. Certainly if it were true... it is mentioned clearly.
You are supposing that the "kingdom of God" in Galatians 5:21 is the same kingdom mentioned in Romans 14:17 which is a spiritual kingdom into which a man is born (John 3) in this age, but you would be wrong. The kingdom of God in Galatians 5:21 is an INHERITANCE and this kingdom is earned by service!
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
This kingdom of God, as the one in Acts 1:3, has to do with the appearance of the Kingdom (note "see" in John 3:3-5) when Christ returns (cf. Luke 19:11-27). It is not the "free gift by the grace of God" which places the believer into the kingdom of Colossians 1:13:
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
I live here!
We haven't received our goal until we are bodily resurrected on the last day. The difference between your faith and mine, is that mine rests in the finished work of Christ, and yours rests in your own efforts working to keep yourself saved. My faith is not alone, and it is not without works, but I understand that my work of faith is God working in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Ph 2:13). God working in me to will and do of His good pleasure is not ME working to keep myself in Him. I KNOW I am in Him, and I KNOW what He has begun in me He will finish.
You're willing to make wagers with your salvation? Best odds? Is that really the way you explain the purpose of good works? What you fail to understand is that many, even the Pharisee's do good works because they think their own good efforts will purchase them the eternal reward. I'm not saying this is why you do good works, but this is very vicarious ground you walk upon. If you think for one moment that you can do anything to merit favor with God, then your very sadly mistaken. Let me leave you with those who thought they were worthy because of all the works they had done in this life, please think on the very somber, and sobering words Christ spoke to them. Many do good works in the name of the Lord, but that is no guarantee they have fully trusted in the Lord working through them.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I would guess that these too saw themselves as winners!
RW
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