Can a Christian Truly Fall?

[RogerW]

What gets me is the sheer volume of scripture that is against OSAS! I believe for every verse that is suppose to be for OSAS there are 2 that show that it's not the way it is.

It's OK to talk about it every now and then

Perhaps this comes from your perception of certain verses, what you believe they teach. Could these verses you say teach we can lose our salvation possibly be misunderstood as you had misunderstood 2Pe 2:20 and Rev 22:18,19? I find this is always the case for those arguing that one could lose salvation. How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life. How can Christ promise "eternal life" if I can reject this so-called eternal life He has given me? Eternal life cannot be called "eternal" if I can commit sin, and lose it. If we could fall away, lose our salvation then Christ would have to say, I give them eternal life unless they reject it. But very clearly He does not! Why? Because we really are eternally secure "WHEN" we are truly in Christ.

RW

[RogerW]

But why? It is done! You are saved and that's it! That is your ultimate goal.

Because there is responsibility in being saved. I find the words of James very helpful. James tells us that the faith OF our Lord Jesus Christ shows no partiality. James speaks of one having faith, and asks can faith save him? Then James says that this faith (of our Lord Jesus Christ) is made perfect by works. This is His faith, His righteousness imputed to the elect, which causes His own to do the works ordained unto us (Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them). Faith is perfected in works, if we have not works, our faith is dead, and not the faith of the Lord imputed to us.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What good is there in saying we have faith if we have no good works, no labor of love to prove our faith genuine? Can this kind of faith (without action) be the faith of the Lord imputed to us? Certainly NOT! True saving faith reveals itself through the operation of grace that works by love and kindness both toward our Lord and others.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Why do anything since we are already saved anyway? Because when we have true saving faith, which originates not from within, but from our Lord, we MUST work, we desire to work, we love to work for Him, showing ourselves becoming more and more in His image, otherwise it is made manifest that the faith we claim is not of Christ, but from ourselves.

RW

[RogerW]

Certainly not. Is that what you think Paul told folks when Paul said those very words?

Yes, but how does Paul tell us that a sinner, spiritually dead, is able to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance? You have not shown him how.

God tells us to believe, and we will be saved. Acts 16:31
God says if we seek Him, we will find Him. Is 55:6
God says that none seek Him, no not one. Ro 3:11

How is this poor, blind, wretched sinner to seek Him and believe when clearly he cannot?

No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw him. Jo 6:44
We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
This faith comes from hearing the Word of God. Ro 10:17

There are two types of people in the world, those saved and those lost. When you are lost, you have no desire for the Lord, or things of the Spirit, and no ability to cry out to Him in repentance and faith. But, God has said that He will have a people to call His own, a people for Himself.
Unless God, supernatually intervenes in the hearts and minds of fallen man, then no man would be saved.

So God in His Sovereign election, and predestination has determined that He will enable some to believe, and He does this through a supernatural drawing of His own. He makes the heart/mind willing to know Him, to seek Him, to believe Him. When an unsaved man shows an interest in Spiritual things, it is very possible that he/she is being drawn by the supernatural power of God.

We tell these that eternal life can be found through the Word of God, and instruct them to gather with Christians, and listen to, and read themselves the Bible. If this one is predestined to receive eternal life, then the Holy Spirit supernaturally imputes the faith of the Lord into the heart, making him/her able to believe the gospel, turn away from sins and be converted.

If he/she has indeed become a new person in Christ it will be made manifest in how his/her life has changed. They will no longer desire the sin they before loved, and it will grieve them terribly when committing sin. There will be a conscience conviction that cannot be denied. They will long to know the Lord more deeply, so they hunger for His Word, and they find they turn to the Lord often in prayer, knowing that the Lord hears the prayers of His people, and they long to be with Christians sharing, and praising the Lord.

So when we are witnessing to the lost we tell them of their great fallenness, their great need, and we show them the only One Who has an answer to their fallen state. But most importantly, we MUST show them how, and how does not come from within, but through the supernatural power of God.

RW

[ProjectPeter]

How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life.

Let's be careful with this sort of language... try and figure a better way to put it. It is pretty much the same as saying that those that adhere to the NOSAS doctrine are calling Christ a liar or making Him a liar. There are ways one can refute various doctrines without taking that route.

[ProjectPeter]

Yes, but how does Paul tell us that a sinner, spiritually dead, is able to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance? You have not shown him how.

Repent means that they are to change their mind and course by turning to God. What's to show? I can't show someone how to change their mind. They have to either do that or not do that. The Spirit draws all men to Christ. Some heed the draw while some don't.

God tells us to believe, and we will be saved. Acts 16:31
God says if we seek Him, we will find Him. Is 55:6
God says that none seek Him, no not one. Ro 3:11

How is this poor, blind, wretched sinner to seek Him and believe when clearly he cannot?

No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw him. Jo 6:44
We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
This faith comes from hearing the Word of God. Ro 10:17

There are two types of people in the world, those saved and those lost. When you are lost, you have no desire for the Lord, or things of the Spirit, and no ability to cry out to Him in repentance and faith. But, God has said that He will have a people to call His own, a people for Himself.
Unless God, supernatually intervenes in the hearts and minds of fallen man, then no man would be saved.

So God in His Sovereign election, and predestination has determined that He will enable some to believe, and He does this through a supernatural drawing of His own. He makes the heart/mind willing to know Him, to seek Him, to believe Him. When an unsaved man shows an interest in Spiritual things, it is very possible that he/she is being drawn by the supernatural power of God.

We tell these that eternal life can be found through the Word of God, and instruct them to gather with Christians, and listen to, and read themselves the Bible. If this one is predestined to receive eternal life, then the Holy Spirit supernaturally imputes the faith of the Lord into the heart, making him/her able to believe the gospel, turn away from sins and be converted.

If he/she has indeed become a new person in Christ it will be made manifest in how his/her life has changed. They will no longer desire the sin they before loved, and it will grieve them terribly when committing sin. There will be a conscience conviction that cannot be denied. They will long to know the Lord more deeply, so they hunger for His Word, and they find they turn to the Lord often in prayer, knowing that the Lord hears the prayers of His people, and they long to be with Christians sharing, and praising the Lord.

So when we are witnessing to the lost we tell them of their great fallenness, their great need, and we show them the only One Who has an answer to their fallen state. But most importantly, we MUST show them how, and how does not come from within, but through the supernatural power of God.

RW

Actually, there is a supernatural drawing of man to Christ. That is what happened at the cross.

John 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

It is the Spirit of God that convicts the world of sin.

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Some will heed that conviction and turn to God. Many will ignore that conviction and refuse to acknowledge God as God. But God makes Himself known to all men so none will have an excuse. But it is what they choose to do with that knowledge of God that decides their fate ultimately. But ALL men know God.

As to the various passages that you posted... I'll discuss some of those with you tomorrow. Getting late right now but wanted to toss this out in advance of that to let you know that I am not ignoring your post. Had a fairly busy day today and ready to find the pillow!

[RogerW]

Repent means that they are to change their mind and course by turning to God. What's to show? I can't show someone how to change their mind. They have to either do that or not do that. The Spirit draws all men to Christ. Some heed the draw while some don't.

How does a man who is spiritually dead repent, change their mind and turn to God? A man who is dead in trespass and sin does not see the need of a Savior. They see nothing to repent of. You say the Spirit draws all men to Christ, then all men should be saved, but they are not. Why? If God draws all men to Christ, and the reason is NOT for salvation, then what is the purpose God draws all men to Christ? If men are supernaturally drawn it makes no sense that Christ would then leave them without Spiritual life. Either the will of God is supreme or the will of man is supreme and able to thwart God's plan to draw all men to Christ and save them.

Actually, there is a supernatural drawing of man to Christ. That is what happened at the cross.

John 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

So Christ here is saying He will draw all men without exception, and yet He is unable to save the one He is drawing? This passage tells us that salvation is no longer limited to a single nation, not that ALL without exception will be drawn, but all men throughout the whole world will be drawn who have been elected/predestinated to receive eternal life from the foundation of the world. Otherwise Christ would be drawing, but again man's will is the supreme, and able to thwart the plans of the Lord to draw all.

It is the Spirit of God that convicts the world of sin.

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Some will heed that conviction and turn to God. Many will ignore that conviction and refuse to acknowledge God as God. But God makes Himself known to all men so none will have an excuse. But it is what they choose to do with that knowledge of God that decides their fate ultimately. But ALL men know God.

Yes, the passage tells us the world is convicted of sin. Why? Because they do not believe. We've come again to why the spiritually dead cannot believe.

Either God is Sovereign, and as such able to save His people, or man is sovereingn and able to interfere with God's gracious efforts to save. I believe when Christ died on the cross He did not merely offer the gift of life, He actually, fully accomplished saving all whom He will draw to Him.

RW

[threebigrocks]

Ever have your eyes opened to something that wasn't right, felt remorse and repented, at the same moment?

It was only when I was drawn to Christ, and in the process of that drawing, that I also saw my sin, was convicted and realized that I needed Christ in the way scripture lays out.

We must not doubt the workings of the Spirit. It can and does indeed happen in a moment.

[threebigrocks]

Let's say that you are speeding, and are pulled over by the cops. That officer has the authority to pull you over, point out your wrong, hand over a citiation and then send you on your way hoping you had learned your lesson.

One moment - the law is before you, you are shown your error, you are convicted, and it's in your best interest to change your ways.

How can that not also apply to how God works in us, being he has no boundaries and doesn't need to 'chase us down' as in Romans 1? He can and He does. It's simple for Him. Can be hard for us.

[Sold Out]

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What good is there in saying we have faith if we have no good works, no labor of love to prove our faith genuine? Can this kind of faith (without action) be the faith of the Lord imputed to us? Certainly NOT! True saving faith reveals itself through the operation of grace that works by love and kindness both toward our Lord and others.



RW

You have quoted James out of context. If you back up to the beginning of this chapter, you will see that James is talking to CHRISTIANS, not the unsaved. James is contrasting SAVING FAITH -vs- SERVING FAITH. These verses do not teach that faith & works are required to be saved. Romans 11 is very clear on this.

James 1:1, "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...." VS 5, "Hearken, my beloved brethren..."

[ProjectPeter]

God tells us to believe, and we will be saved. Acts 16:31

Acts 16:28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here!"
29 And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

What word of the Lord did they speak... that is important because it was this which they had to believe. That is often missed when folks read and use this text. What word would Paul have preached to him? Repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. I am certain that there was more detail but in summary that is what Paul said that he preached to Jews and Gentiles alike.

God says if we seek Him, we will find Him. Is 55:6
God says that none seek Him, no not one. Ro 3:11

How is this poor, blind, wretched sinner to seek Him and believe when clearly he cannot?

That Romans passage has always been a passage (the passage really) that folks use to say that no one can seek God. Problem is... go back and read the passages that Paul was quoting from. If memory is correct then all of them, save one, are taken from Psalms. In that research you will see that this is not what David was saying when he penned those words and I doubt any of us want to try and lay claim that Paul used those passages out of context. David is speaking of enemies of God... enemies of his. In some of those Psalms David even mentions the "righteous" so if there are "NO RIGHTEOUS" in regard to every individual person... and if that is what Paul means (I don't figure it is) then Paul would have taken that out of context. Take this for example:

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 ¶Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

Who is David speaking of? The same people that Paul speaks of in Romans 1. Those who say "there is no God." Workers of wickedness he calls them. But then in that 5th verse David tells us who God is with. "The righteous generation." Well imagine that... there is no righteous but yet in that same Psalm we see that isn't the case. Hence... David wasn't talking about all me and there actually being "NO" righteous. Just to hammer that point home... look at the very next Psalm.

Psalms 15:1 O Lord, who may abide in Thy tent? Who may dwell on Thy holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised, But who honors those who fear the LORD; He swears to his own hurt, and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.

So certainly there are "righteous" folk and there were then. So context is important here.

Paul continues in that 2nd chapter of Romans talking to the Jew. Their circumcision and following their traditions and laws... being of Abraham... none of that is going to matter a whit. They are just as bad as the folks in chapter 1. Paul continues that line here in Romans 3. Jew and Gentile... he is not changing his message.

Another example of one of the Psalms Paul quotes (in an effort to show the point is exactly the same).


Psalms 53:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.
2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread, And have not called upon God?
5 There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.
6 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Who is David speaking about? The fool that has said in his heart that "There is no God." Notice the pattern and theme here is consistent totally on what Paul began this whole discourse on. Romans 1... they knew Him as God but did not acknowledge Him as God. God gave them over to various things and ultimately to a reprobate mind.

Does this apply to every individual living? Not at all because not one person alive started out reprobate. They started out "knowing God" and then refused to acknowledge Him as God. Then they got worse as God gave them over to various things and thus the process of hardening a heart. Jew or Gentile.

Covered the other passages in the earlier post... I see you've responded to that so I'll take that from there.

[ProjectPeter]

How does a man who is spiritually dead repent, change their mind and turn to God?

They change their mind and thus they repent. They turn from their wicked deeds and instead produce good fruit and thus they have turned to God. Even you said that although we went through a different door to get there. You said they "will do as a result" and I say "they need to do" and ultimately we agree on the result. We differ on how that result is achieved. But we both agree that it is by God empowering us that these results will come about.

A man who is dead in trespass and sin does not see the need of a Savior. They see nothing to repent of.

Sure... no problem with that. So we preach to them and hope it pierces their heart and then we let the Spirit do what the Spirit does.

[quote] You say the Spirit draws all men to Christ, then all men should be saved, but they are not. Why? If God draws all men to Christ, and the reason is NOT for salvation, then what is the purpose God draws all men to Christ? [quote]For salvation... why else would it happen?

If men are supernaturally drawn it makes no sense that Christ would then leave them without Spiritual life. Either the will of God is supreme or the will of man is supreme and able to thwart God's plan to draw all men to Christ and save them.

Well it makes no sense that someone would trample the blood of Christ underfoot but it happens. It makes no sense that the Galatians would walk away from freedom in Christ and into bondage of the Law but it happens. It makes no sense why a washed pig would return to the mud or a dog to its vomit... but it happens. I makes no sense why one would turn from the truth and back into the ways of the world... but again... it happens.

Let's take what you say to a logical conclusion with this whole "God is supreme therefore" thing. If it works out how you present it (even by implication here) then why would God ever change His mind? Why would God tell someone that they need to get their stuff in order because times up... then hear the guys prayer and send the prophet back in to tell him never mind... going to give you another 15 years? Why would God relent and not destroy Ninevah only to postpone it for a few years later and then destroy them? Why would God take serious Ahab's prayer of repentance and spare his life only to later say Ahab was a heathen and take him out? Why did God desire sweet grapes (righteous Israel) and yet He got sour ones instead (unrighteous Israel). Yes, God is supreme because after all... He is God. Why is it such a foreign concept that God, in all of His sovereignty, allowed man free moral agency? In other words... God allows man to make their moral or immoral choice. He doesn't pick that for them and push them that direction. It is no different with that drawing to Christ. Some here and don't get it. Some here and yet have issues and they fall away. Some hear and their soil is good and they produce fruit.

So Christ here is saying He will draw all men without exception, and yet He is unable to save the one He is drawing? This passage tells us that salvation is no longer limited to a single nation, not that ALL without exception will be drawn, but all men throughout the whole world will be drawn who have been elected/predestinated to receive eternal life from the foundation of the world. Otherwise Christ would be drawing, but again man's will is the supreme, and able to thwart the plans of the Lord to draw all.

Actually no... you don't see "only the elect" anywhere near that passage. One has to place that there despite what the clear text is saying.

Yes, the passage tells us the world is convicted of sin. Why? Because they do not believe. We've come again to why the spiritually dead cannot believe.

So if they are all convicted of sin... why don't they all turn to God? The Spirit convicted the world... is He lacking in something? Naturally not. Christ has drawn all men... the Spirit convicts those men... they have to either acknowledge God as God... or go the route of those who will be reprobate.

Either God is Sovereign, and as such able to save His people, or man is sovereingn and able to interfere with God's gracious efforts to save. I believe when Christ died on the cross He did not merely offer the gift of life, He actually, fully accomplished saving all whom He will draw to Him.

RW

And again... it is odd to me that everyone says God is sovereign with such authority and yet they discount the fact that God, in all His sovereignty, gave man the choice. Choose life or choose death. After all... God uttered those very words a time or two according to Scripture.

[RogerW]

You have quoted James out of context. If you back up to the beginning of this chapter, you will see that James is talking to CHRISTIANS, not the unsaved. James is contrasting SAVING FAITH -vs- SERVING FAITH. These verses do not teach that faith & works are required to be saved. Romans 11 is very clear on this.

James 1:1, "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...." VS 5, "Hearken, my beloved brethren..."

I couldn't agree more! What James shows is that if you are a Christians there will be works.

RW

[RogerW]

Acts 16:28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here!"
29 And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

What word of the Lord did they speak... that is important because it was this which they had to believe. That is often missed when folks read and use this text. What word would Paul have preached to him? Repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. I am certain that there was more detail but in summary that is what Paul said that he preached to Jews and Gentiles alike.

Paul preached the cross, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Paul knew that this is the message which MUST be believed to be saved. Yes, Paul would also have told them to repent, but without belief in the message of the cross, repentance is in vain. Paul knew that which was the greatest offense to others was the most important thing to him because salvation comes only through and by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ.

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Ac 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The cross, Christ crucified, in its simplicity, and lowliness of its ministers and followers, the crucified Redeemer is the very wisdom of God, and those who are mature in faith recognize it as such. This redemptive plan was hidden in promises, prophecies and types/shadows, but is now revealed in Christ (He 1:1-5). None of the world’s rulers or leaders saw the wisdom of God in Christ, or they never would have crucified our Lord.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

The gospel is unknown to natural men. It is beyond the understanding of the wisest of them. How can any of them come to know these spiritual mysteries? God reveals his purpose to save through His Spirit working in us. The Holy Spirit has a complete and perfect knowledge of all who belong to Christ.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The natural, unregenerate man will not receive, understand, nor believe in his heart these truths of God and the revelation of the Spirit of God. The gospel of grace makes no sense to him, it is nonsense. He is incapable of understanding the things of God because these things can only be understood through the Holy Spirit, through revelation only the Spirit gives. Unless one is Spiritually enlightened, he/she will never believe.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That Romans passage has always been a passage (the passage really) that folks use to say that no one can seek God. Problem is... go back and read the passages that Paul was quoting from. If memory is correct then all of them, save one, are taken from Psalms. In that research you will see that this is not what David was saying when he penned those words and I doubt any of us want to try and lay claim that Paul used those passages out of context. David is speaking of enemies of God... enemies of his. In some of those Psalms David even mentions the "righteous" so if there are "NO RIGHTEOUS" in regard to every individual person... and if that is what Paul means (I don't figure it is) then Paul would have taken that out of context. Take this for example:

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 ¶Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

Who is David speaking of? The same people that Paul speaks of in Romans 1. Those who say "there is no God." Workers of wickedness he calls them. But then in that 5th verse David tells us who God is with. "The righteous generation." Well imagine that... there is no righteous but yet in that same Psalm we see that isn't the case. Hence... David wasn't talking about all me and there actually being "NO" righteous. Just to hammer that point home... look at the very next Psalm.

Who are the children of men? This passage, like Ro 3 says that the Lord sees ALL the children of men, not just those who say there is no God. The Lord's assessment is they are ALL filthy, and NONE of the children of men do good, no, not one.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalms 15:1 O Lord, who may abide in Thy tent? Who may dwell on Thy holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised, But who honors those who fear the LORD; He swears to his own hurt, and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.

So certainly there are "righteous" folk and there were then. So context is important here.

Who made them righteous? We just read in the previous chapter that there is none who do good. And yet there are some who will abide in His tent, and dwell on His holy hill. How is the man in whom does no good able to walk in integrity, work righteousness, and speak truth in his heart? It is only the man in whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered, in whom the Lord does not impute iniquity else there would be none righteous, no, not one.

Ps 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Paul continues in that 2nd chapter of Romans talking to the Jew. Their circumcision and following their traditions and laws... being of Abraham... none of that is going to matter a whit. They are just as bad as the folks in chapter 1. Paul continues that line here in Romans 3. Jew and Gentile... he is not changing his message.

Another example of one of the Psalms Paul quotes (in an effort to show the point is exactly the same).

Psalms 53:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.
2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread, And have not called upon God?
5 There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.
6 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Who is David speaking about? The fool that has said in his heart that "There is no God." Notice the pattern and theme here is consistent totally on what Paul began this whole discourse on. Romans 1... they knew Him as God but did not acknowledge Him as God. God gave them over to various things and ultimately to a reprobate mind.

Again, look closely at verses 2 and 3 which say, "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are ALTOGETHER become filthy; there IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." This is speaking of ALL of mankind, not just some who say, "there is no God."

Though God has revealed Himself to man, they neither thought nor spoke honourably of Him. The did not glorify Him as God, nor honour Him as the Creator, nor worship Him as the Lord of the universe. They were not thankful for the knowledge they had, or for God's many mercies. They forsake God and His truth, and turn instead to the vanity of their own minds, and imaginations.

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Does this apply to every individual living? Not at all because not one person alive started out reprobate. They started out "knowing God" and then refused to acknowledge Him as God. Then they got worse as God gave them over to various things and thus the process of hardening a heart. Jew or Gentile.

To draw this conclusion you have to ignore the verses in those passages from Psalms that speak of the unversality of the fallenness of man. There is a difference in having a knowledge of God through His creation, and having a saving knowledge of our crucified Lord. The first leaves man without excuse, the second brings eternal life to all who believe.

RW

[RogerW]

They change their mind and thus they repent. They turn from their wicked deeds and instead produce good fruit and thus they have turned to God. Even you said that although we went through a different door to get there. You said they "will do as a result" and I say "they need to do" and ultimately we agree on the result. We differ on how that result is achieved. But we both agree that it is by God empowering us that these results will come about.

You have yet to explain how a spiritually dead man can change his mind, turn from wicked deeds, and then turn to God? Natural man has no ability within himself. Until we are made alive through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit we have NO ABILITY to respond to the Lord in faith to be saved.

[quote=ProjectPeter;1270085]
[quote] You say the Spirit draws all men to Christ, then all men should be saved, but they are not. Why? If God draws all men to Christ, and the reason is NOT for salvation, then what is the purpose God draws all men to Christ?

For salvation... why else would it happen?

Then why aren't all men saved? Are you saying that the will of fallen, spiritually discerned men is able to keep the Lord from saving ALL men, since (you say) all men are drawn to him? Is the will of man really able to stop the Lord from saving those He draws to Himself?

Well it makes no sense that someone would trample the blood of Christ underfoot but it happens. It makes no sense that the Galatians would walk away from freedom in Christ and into bondage of the Law but it happens. It makes no sense why a washed pig would return to the mud or a dog to its vomit... but it happens. I makes no sense why one would turn from the truth and back into the ways of the world... but again... it happens.

It makes perfect sense that some trample the blood of Christ, return to the bondage of the law, return, like a pig to the mud, or a dog to its own vomit. It makes perfect sense when you realize they have never received saving faith.

Let's take what you say to a logical conclusion with this whole "God is supreme therefore" thing. If it works out how you present it (even by implication here) then why would God ever change His mind? Why would God tell someone that they need to get their stuff in order because times up... then hear the guys prayer and send the prophet back in to tell him never mind... going to give you another 15 years? Why would God relent and not destroy Ninevah only to postpone it for a few years later and then destroy them? Why would God take serious Ahab's prayer of repentance and spare his life only to later say Ahab was a heathen and take him out? Why did God desire sweet grapes (righteous Israel) and yet He got sour ones instead (unrighteous Israel). Yes, God is supreme because after all... He is God. Why is it such a foreign concept that God, in all of His sovereignty, allowed man free moral agency? In other words... God allows man to make their moral or immoral choice. He doesn't pick that for them and push them that direction. It is no different with that drawing to Christ. Some here and don't get it. Some here and yet have issues and they fall away. Some hear and their soil is good and they produce fruit.

Do you believe in the providence of God over all His creation?

Actually no... you don't see "only the elect" anywhere near that passage. One has to place that there despite what the clear text is saying.

The choice then would be that only some, the elect are saved, or all men will be saved. Do you believe that every man will be saved?

So if they are all convicted of sin... why don't they all turn to God? The Spirit convicted the world... is He lacking in something? Naturally not. Christ has drawn all men... the Spirit convicts those men... they have to either acknowledge God as God... or go the route of those who will be reprobate.

They have no choice in the matter until they are saved. Without the Holy Spirit IN THEM they cannot believe, and even if they acknowledge God as God, they MUST believe the message of the cross, or remain reprobate, and they cannot believe the message of the cross unless the Lord gives them ears to hear the gospel.

And again... it is odd to me that everyone says God is sovereign with such authority and yet they discount the fact that God, in all His sovereignty, gave man the choice. Choose life or choose death. After all... God uttered those very words a time or two according to Scripture.

Just as you could not choose to receive physical life, you cannot choose to receive spiritual life as a natural man (reprobate). How could God be Sovereign if He gave man the choice? That would mean that God relinquishes His Sovereignty to fallen, reprobate man. This is something absolutley foreign to Scripture.

RW

[2 Peter 2:20]

Perhaps this comes from your perception of certain verses, what you believe they teach. Could these verses you say teach we can lose our salvation possibly be misunderstood as you had misunderstood 2Pe 2:20 and Rev 22:18,19? I find this is always the case for those arguing that one could lose salvation. How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life. How can Christ promise "eternal life" if I can reject this so-called eternal life He has given me? Eternal life cannot be called "eternal" if I can commit sin, and lose it. If we could fall away, lose our salvation then Christ would have to say, I give them eternal life unless they reject it. But very clearly He does not! Why? Because we really are eternally secure "WHEN" we are truly in Christ.

RW

I want to start out by giving you the definition of the word "IF". This is for 2 reasons: 1. It's my favorite word in the Bible. 2. It could make the difference in this conversation. The definition of the word "IF" is: in the event that, on the condition of, granting that. Now everytime you see the word "IF" in the Bible I want you to remember what it means. Why is the word "IF" so important? Because it's a cause and effect statement. It gives YOU a choice everytime! Here is an example statement "If you do this then this will happen."

You say I misunderstand these scriptures because of 1 verse that Jesus said about His sheep knowing His voice and your next reply is going to be the 1 about no one can snatch them out of His hand. Right? After that you are going to go to 1 John and quote some scripture to try to prove your point. But after that where do you go? I can give you scripture after scripture from just about every book in the NT that shows my side. Now you said Jesus would be a liar if you could lose your salvation but I want to show you what Jesus said in John 15.

John 15:4-6
4Remain in me, and I (Jesus) will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me (Jesus) and I (Jesus) in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If (in the event that, on the condition, granting that) anyone does not remain in me (Jesus), he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Notice what verse 4 says, the order it says it and what verse 4 doesn't say. It says that YOU remain in Him. This is the first part of the statement and then there is a comma which connects it directly to the second part of the statement. The second part says He will remain in you but this is contingent on you remaining in Him first. Notice that it doesn't say once you are in Me you will always be in Me. This verse is just about saying the complete opposite of that.

The question we can ask ourselves is "What happens IF we don't remain (abide) in Him?" The obvious answer is He will not remain in us. If you don't fulfill your part of the statement He will not fulfill His part of the statement. Now if you don't believe my answer to this question look to verse 6 to find the answer to it. It starts with the word IF. I put the definition in blue so you can see it in context. Jesus says one that doesn't remain in Him is like a branch that dies and is cast into the fire and burned.