If I may ask you, where do you see there were believers, other than the seed that fell upon good ground (which I think you would agree falling on good ground and bearing much fruit refers to believers)?Originally Posted by ProjectPeter
RW
I live here!
If I may ask you, where do you see there were believers, other than the seed that fell upon good ground (which I think you would agree falling on good ground and bearing much fruit refers to believers)?
RW
I live here!
Since its late, and my body is complaining loudly, I'll answer your questions now, and then attempt to reconcile every passage you posted with my beliefs as soon as possible.For those who are OSAS believers,
It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:
4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.
I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.
These are some questions I ask to better understand.
This is just some more food for thought
- Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
- If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
- We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
- One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?
Questions:
1. yes
2. salvation is not the end of my faith it begins my faith
3. read it in context, it's addressed to the church, not of your souls, but the deliverance of the church from strife and division
4. the hope we look for is eternal in heaven, city made without hands (He 11:16; 12:22) 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Paul is speaking to believers of all time who will obtain salvation, living or dead we live together with Him
Rev 12:10 "now is come salvation." What is the time reference here? This whole chapter speaks of the beginning of the NT church era, or kingdom era. It began at the cross. Christ ushered in world wide salvation to complete the Kingdom when He went to the cross, and was resurrected to life.
RW
2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
It is the Spirit that does the conviction. But that doesn't mean nor imply that the Spirit of God is dwelling within a person. No where does Scripture teach such but contrary to that actually.
Um... actually you have another issue because in Acts a bit further Peter makes it clear those whom are indwelt by the Spirit of God...You seem to be reading vs. 38 as “ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.” But the passage says, “ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is already there, this is why their hearts were pricked when they heard the Word. Now the Holy Spirit will impart the gift of God, i.e. salvation by grace through faith, and this not of themselves, but the gift of God.
Ac 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 5:32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
You are trying to say that they have it before they have obeyed Him. Again... problematic when held up to Scripture.
As pointed out before... you are going to then explain how it is that these folks were in fact purchased by Christ and yet were not ever saved. Again I will figure you'll have a difficult time showing Scripturally and even according to your own doctrine how that works.
The same warnings to the church we find in Peter are found throughout. Again and again we are being warned that there are imposters of Christ among us. These are false prophets, and false teachers who love the world more then they love Christ, because they are not truly in Christ. They follow the lust of the flesh, and try very hard to get all the body to follow their evil ways.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ::
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
The warnings in Peter are not that Christians can lose their salvation, it is warning us of the false teachers and false prophets among us, who claim the name of Christ. Christians are not being warned because we can lose our salvation, but to understand that we live in a fallen world surrounded by those who are opposed to Christ, and His kingdom. They will stop at nothing in their battle against the Lord. Our battle is a spiritual battle, and this is why we must recognize those among us who would destroy the body of Christ is they could. Forewarned is forearmed.
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might..
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil..
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
RW
Mind you that we don't disagree that they aren't in Christ now (or at the time of the writing) but your idea that they never were... I just think it fails the test of what is actually written in the passage itself.
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
What does that passage say? You can read it I figure and that is in fact what it says right?
Remember that whole "you were bought with a price" passage and all that... perhaps you care to explain how it is that they were purchased by Christ and yet... they weren't saved? Again... give me some Scripture on this concept you have. I know your doctrine... but please back this point up with Scripture. That would be a big help.
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
Member
*
21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (D)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Can a OSAS person please tell me how an UNSAVED person can cast out demons and prophecy without the Holy Spirit in operation? We read here that saved persons (filled with the Holy SPirit) are cast out of the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ on the day of judgment - be forewarned!!!!In Christ,Justin
2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
Take the rocky soil. They believe for a while right?
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Here is your Greek for believe there.
pisteuo
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Naturally we know according to the parable that they don't persevere and we know that persevering is a must. But again... you will have a hard time with the "they never believed in the first place" ideology because it say quite different.
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
I live here!
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,For those who are OSAS believers,
It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:
4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.
I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.
These are some questions I ask to better understand.
This is just some more food for thought
- Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
- If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
- We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
- One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
When we read this passage in context, we see this is speaking of being bodily raised from the dead to our inheritance in heaven. At the appearing (Second Coming) of Christ, believers receive their incorruptible inheritance, that never fades away, reserved for us in heaven, and kept by the power of God, and revealed in the fullness of time.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
RW
I live here!
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a falme of fire.For those who are OSAS believers,
It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:
4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.
I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.
These are some questions I ask to better understand.
This is just some more food for thought
- Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
- If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
- We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
- One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Who are the heirs of salvation and they that are ministered by these spirit beings? Believers are the heirs of salvation, and this is speaking to believers throughout time. The ministry of the angels are of things concerning both our bodies, and immortal souls. These direct and preserve us in our journeys through life, in deliverance from danger, in restraining things that would bring us harm until we have become saved. Some like to refer to these as guardian angels. They are sent forth by Christ to minister unto us until we become saved. Once we have been born again, we have the indwelling Spirit to lead and guide us.
2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Paul certainly did not consider that Timothy’s salvation was yet future. Timothy demonstrated faith, which produces belief, that reliance upon Christ for salvation.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The elect are those chosen by God and given to Christ, all of these receive salvation in this physical life, and eternal glory in the life to come.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again the last day.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
We live together with Him whether we be dead or alive. To live with Him we MUST have received salvation in this life.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We cannot work out our salvation without the presence of God working in us. Since it is God working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure, we are already saved. It is not a future salvation, but salvation through God, Who is working in us now.
Ro 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Ro 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
To believe means that one has received saving faith, so how can salvation be yet future? When Paul says our salvation is nearer than when we believed (have received saving faith) he is again referring to our final state in glory. This verse could be interpreted thus, “for now is our incorruptible salvation nearer than then when we first became saved.” We know Paul is speaking about the salvation of our physical bodies from corruption because he tells us, “the day is at hand.” This can only be reference to the Day of the Lord, His Second Coming.
How do you reconcile passages that speak of having obtained salvation in this life with the view that salvation is future? This view causes contradiction in the Word of God, which cannot be reconciled through your interpretation. How do you reconcile for instance this passage that speaks in the past tense, saying those foreknown by God have been predestinated, have been called, have been justified, and have been glorified…have been! It is true that we do await our final salvation, when we will receive our glorified resurrected incorruptible bodies, but we have great assurance NOW that we have become sons of God.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he [past tense] power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
RW
I live here!
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Not only does God promise to send His Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, but He also promises that through the Holy Spirit He hath sealed us until the final redemption of His elect.
This verse is speaking of Peter, and the other apostles. Are you saying that Peter and the apostles had not obeyed Him? Who are those who obey, and what obedience? Could it be repent, believe?
It would not be logical to assume "the Lord that bought them" is referring to unrepentant false prophets and false teachers, who bring damnable heresies, and whose end is swift destruction. I could try to read into Scripture an opinion, assuming they must have at one point been in Christ, and now they are not. But, this is reading a presuposition into the text that is NOT there. Rather than second guessing the verse, I will accept what the verse plainly tells me. These are false prophets, false teachers who have crept into the church, with damnable heresy to try to decieve the unlearned.
Why would the passage say these false prophets, and false teachers deny the Lord that bought them? Every true preacher/teacher will give Christ His proper place and glory, and all false bring heresies that deny in some way the redemptive power of the Lord. We are called to test the spirits of these false prophets to see if they be of God. All false preachers/teachers will deny or diminish in some way the work of Christ as Just and Justifier.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Since these false prophets, and teachers are among the people of God in the churches, they are in a certain sense in the body of Christ, that He purchased with His blood. So they are among those whom Christ has bought , but most assuredly they are there through deception, and will be cast out of the kingdom on the last day.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
RW
2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
But you are saying that it indwells the person even before they believe. Again... a bit problematic.
Sure... no problem with that at all. But it doesn't leave it as future event. For your doctrine that they are filled with the Spirit before believing thus enabling them to believe... you have them filled with the Spirit before obeying. That text doesn't allow for that at all.This verse is speaking of Peter, and the other apostles. Are you saying that Peter and the apostles had not obeyed Him? Who are those who obey, and what obedience? Could it be repent, believe?
Ok so how does that work? Ignore the fact that they were purchased by Christ? The text clearly shows that it is speaking of these same false prophets so who is it that it is speaking of if not them? It isn't presupposing anything. It says it quite clearly does it not?It would not be logical to assume "the Lord that bought them" is referring to unrepentant false prophets and false teachers, who bring damnable heresies, and whose end is swift destruction. I could try to read into Scripture an opinion, assuming they must have at one point been in Christ, and now they are not. But, this is reading a presuposition into the text that is NOT there. Rather than second guessing the verse, I will accept what the verse plainly tells me. These are false prophets, false teachers who have crept into the church, with damnable heresy to try to decieve the unlearned.
Because they fell. Just as the pair that Paul mentions in his first and second letter to Timothy. Just as John mentioned in his letter to Gaius. It happens... people stray from the truth.Why would the passage say these false prophets, and false teachers deny the Lord that bought them? Every true preacher/teacher will give Christ His proper place and glory, and all false bring heresies that deny in some way the redemptive power of the Lord. We are called to test the spirits of these false prophets to see if they be of God. All false preachers/teachers will deny or diminish in some way the work of Christ as Just and Justifier.
So how does that work according to Calvinism which would never allow that Christ "purchased" anyone that wasn't a part of the elect? That is the rub here that has my curiosity high.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Since these false prophets, and teachers are among the people of God in the churches, they are in a certain sense in the body of Christ, that He purchased with His blood. So they are among those whom Christ has bought , but most assuredly they are there through deception, and will be cast out of the kingdom on the last day.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
RW
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
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Where does the passage say they cast out demons and prophesy through the power of the Holy Spirit? It does NOT! It says, they did many good works in the name of Christ. How many times are we warned in Scripture of those who come into the church, professing to be of Christ, who are in fact false prophets, false teachers, under the power of their father the Devil? Christ warns us, Mt 24:5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." These are not believers who lose their salvation, these are deceivers, falsely professing to do many good works in Christ, but in truth they have no part in Him. Which is why on the last day Christ rejects them.
RW
I live here!
We also know from the parable that what ever, or who ever they believed in, it is not Christ. For the parable tells us, "and these have no root." What does it mean to have no root? The Root is Christ, and if we have no root, we have no part in Christ. For it is He (the Root) which bears us up, we do not bear up the root.
Ro 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
It seems the words of Christ to His disciples is fulfilled, "but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."
RW
2 Peter 1:1-11 Live it!
Um.... so one can "believe/trust" in Christ and that isn't really enough? Didn't you earlier say that this is all that is required?
Visit our new website! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.
A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!
I live here!
The Holy Spirit is God! We've come full circle once more. How can a spiritually dead man respond in faith and belief if he/she has no spiritual life? You have yet to explain this, even though you stated that you think you explained it very well.
Of course the text allows this. We hear the Word, just as they did, if we have been chosen to receive salvation, then the Holy Spirit opens our ears to hear, and imputes faith that we WILL repent and believe. I'm sorry you don't understand this, but unless the HS does a supernatural work in our hearts, then we, be spiritually dead will never hear, or receive faith to repent and believe. We must receive Spiritual life before we can obey His command to repent and believe.
I can and will further elaborate, but in regard to the labeling (Calvinism) I am fairly certain that your only interest is to cling tightly to what you believe. And it would not matter how many verses of Scripture I bring to show you why Christians cannot lose their salvation, you will continue to argue against the Scriptures. I've seen this tactic before, when one cannot biblically dispute, they engage in character attack, and I feel certain that labeling me a Calvinist is not a complimentary term. Especially since I have in this thread stated that I have never read nor studied the works of Calvin. Regarding "the Lord that bought them"
God is speaking of “them” coming in to be part of the Church which was purchased. Therefore “them” is the Church they come into and are outwardly part of. They are part of the Church in the sense that He has purchased with His own blood. But this is the church in the world, that symbolizes the Eternal Church, but as long as she exists in this world, she will be made up of both believers and unbelievers.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
God speaks of “them” as part of the external church in the world. The Eternal Church was purchased, and these come in as part of that Church, which is why it says there are false teachers among you (believers). Even though they are unsaved, they have entered in as part of the external church in the world, and are outwardly, part of “them” who were bought. The topic is not the purchase of Christians by the death of Christ, but the deception of false Christians who by private interpretations, bring damnable heresies into this Church 'denying the Lord who bought them.'
It is through their heresies that they reveal themselves as false. There are false prophets or false teachers who come into the universal church, who call themselves Christian, but who by their doctrines, deny the Christ that bought them (Christians). It is not saying Christ bought false Christians, rather, that they are professed Christians, part of the external New Covenant Church, who, by their heresy deny the Christ that bought them.
Peter urges the Church in the preceding chapter (verse 10) to make their calling and election sure, and then throughout chapter 2 speaks of those in the universal church who are professing Christians, but are not truly Saved.
2Pe 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This is the very same type language, where God is speaking of these false Christians as if they were truly saved, as if they were bought. A believer is not referred to as a dog, or a pig, but these, who turned away from the holy commandment and reveal themselves to be reprobate among the covenant body. These false professors co-exist with the elect, and are considered part of the body outwardly, but they are never among the believers, the elect of God. Although many false professors can be among the covenant body outwardly, it is the Eternal Church that the gates of hell shall never prevail against.
And just as verses 20-22 is NOT speaking of people who were saved and then lost their salvation, neither is verse 2 speaking of people who were actually bought by the blood of Christ, and then became un-bought. It is speaking of those who come in to the Church which was bought, and deny Christ by their works. Because they have never become 'a new creature' in Christ, they return to just what they always were. In accord with verses 20-22, they were Sows (pigs) and Dogs. Once we become saved, we are no longer sows, no longer dogs, but have become a new creature. Anyone can call themselves the Church, bought of Christ, but it's what is inside that counts.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Here again we find unbelievers who profess to know God, but of whom God says “in works” they deny Him. False prophets have not been bought (redeemed) by the blood of the Lamb. All those bought by Christ have been justified by His work on the cross.
RW
I live here!
Where in the parable does it say they believe/trust in Christ? How can one who has no part of the Root (which is Christ) believe/trust in Him?
RW
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