Can a Christian Truly Fall?

[Righton]

In the Bible Chat thread someone posted a question on the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


This is a quote taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/

It is a good source for quoting scripture when you want to copy and paste a passage, rather than sit and type it out.

From the rules, this seems the appropriate place to put this. If not, could a manager let me know? Looking over the rules, I believe I have found the right place.

Moving on...

I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Thank you.

[Faithwalker]

Are there those here who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ?
If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Oh let me count the ways people will use to get around the unmovable Word (sorry, not here to give a rebuttal)

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

[Righton]

Oh no, please, Faithwalker. I have invited someone from the thread where this was discussed, because I felt it was going off-topic to discuss this matter. But anyone who wants to give me MORE ammo, feel free!

[Faithwalker]

Carry on then...get down to the roots


Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

[Righton]

The case of Esau is, I think, a good one.

It is my own interpretation that he went the other way. When he learned that Jacob had gone to their mother's relatives for a wife and knew for certain that his partents did not approve of Canaanite women, he went and got a wife from Ishmael, his uncle. And then later, he forgave Jacob for getting his birthright and after that, it says that Jacob and Esau farmed together, had their herds near each other, so that Esau ran out of space, moved to Edom, and Jacob wound up with most of Isaac's inheritance, as he was supposed to.

But earlier in his life, Esau was very unspiritual as the scripture says. I think he had an unofficial revelation after Jacob had left for Upper Mesopotamia.

But one scripture I had posted was about Paul's former friend, Demas. 2 Timothy 4:10 (New International Version)

10for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia.

This says to me that Demas forsook Paul and fell back in love with the world and left the Way of Christ.

If the member who posted the other post does move here as I have now invited him, I will know he is sincere. Though I suppose I COULD HAVE gone to the moderators to let them know his post was off-topic, I prefer to not bother anybody if I can help it and take care of things myself. So if he shows up, I will know he was sincere. If not, I guess he was into one-upmanship.

I am going off-line now. Thanks for chatting with me, Faithwalker.

[threebigrocks]

So long as this maintains the tone it has so far, along the lines of learning and teaching than my view vs. yours, it can continue here. If the line is crossed it will be moved to Bible Chat.

[Braves27]

This scripture is talking about a willful turn away from GOD....as in, a Christian who becomes an atheist or a Muslim or a whatever. That shows that you KNEW the truth, and the love and grace of GOD, and completely rejected it, and forsook it, and rejected GOD. Hebrews 10:26 tells us the same thing: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


So yes, it can definitely happen. It's just hard. I can't imagine how someone would know such a beautiful thing as the truth of the living GOD, and walk away from it.

[okiepastor]

Yes, one can turn from Christ. And, that is a serious thing. However, perhaps the operative question should be, does Christ turn from those who knew Him?

Let me share the witness of a friend. It is not mine, but his, but he loves to share it. I asked him, and he said, okay, go for it, so here it is. Take it for what it's worth.

He was raised in a non-Christian home. As a native American, his family worshipped in the "way of the Old Ones." When he was 14, he went with a friend to a tent revival, and, during the course of the event, became convinced that Y'Shua was the Way, the Truth, and the Light. He was baptized that very evening.

He went home, told his mother about it, and she turned, slapped him on the face, told him to "forget that white man's s*** and wash the dishes."

Needless to say, over a period of time, he fell away, and, as a musician (a very good rock guitarist and bassist) he became part of a Satanic band, playing in the south central and south western United States. He spent several years worshipping the Evil One, and then, to him, something didn't seem to add up, so he left that band and that coven, and went totally secular, playing the normal rock music.

One day, a band that was leading into his band, opening for them, I think is the term, played a couple Christian oriented songs, and he began to weep. That night, he fell to his knees, prayed for forgiveness, and so on, and was amazed to find that, during the entire time he'd been wirshipping the Evil One, Y'Shua had never been away from his side. The Lord had been his firm and staunch companion through all those years. He now runs a Christian band and a music ministry in a medium-sized town in Oklahoma.

So, the question maybe should be, if we fall away, do we then lose the Lord?

[Sold Out]

In the Bible Chat thread someone posted a question on the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


This is a quote taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/

It is a good source for quoting scripture when you want to copy and paste a passage, rather than sit and type it out.

From the rules, this seems the appropriate place to put this. If not, could a manager let me know? Looking over the rules, I believe I have found the right place.

Moving on...

I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Thank you.

If you read verse 4 closely, you will notice it says they can NEVER be brought back to repentance. So is this talking about losing salvation? No, because if it was, then no one could ever get saved again.

A Christian can fall and cross the line of God's mercy. Paul said in I Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This word 'castaway' in the greek is 'adokimos', which means, 'to not pass the test'. Paul was afraid of messing up and not being used by God again. He was not afraid of losing his salvation.

Christians can fall, but not lose salvation. They can fall out of the will of God and into the world with Satan's and his influences.

I have personally known people who crossed God's line of mercy. They chose the world over God, (willfully) and walked away from God. Now they are miserable folks, who will never serve God again.

[threebigrocks]

If you read verse 4 closely, you will notice it says they can NEVER be brought back to repentance. So is this talking about losing salvation? No, because if it was, then no one could ever get saved again.

Saved again? Not following that notion.

A Christian can fall and cross the line of God's mercy. Paul said in I Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This word 'castaway' in the greek is 'adokimos', which means, 'to not pass the test'. Paul was afraid of messing up and not being used by God again. He was not afraid of losing his salvation.

Here Paul is saying that he keeps his flesh in check so it does not overtake his spirit and the will of God.

And, what test was Paul given each time he preached? Had he not preached of God, then what? Paul here was relaying what he attempts to do to keep himself from not being able to pass the test which is the test at judgement. That is the only test that matters. To say he was afraid of messing up and not to be used by God again is saying that Paul was not humble but prideful. That I think you may draw several arguements on.

Christians can fall, but not lose salvation. They can fall out of the will of God and into the world with Satan's and his influences.

We can indeed trip and skin a knee. But the issue here is, per the Hebrews 6 verse in the OP and your example, did Paul know enough to have tasted the glory and mercy, to have known God and the Spirit to where falling away would have earned him eternal seperation from God?

How can we answer but yes.

[2 Peter 2:20]

20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

What does "you are worse off at the end than at the beginning" mean? In the beginning before you escaped the corruption you were doomed to go to hell and it says we are worse off than that now. Why? Because we now know the way of the Lord but turn away from it.

With a screen name of 2 Peter 2:20 I guess I have to get in on this conversation! Combine this scripture with Heb.6:4 and Heb.10:26 and it is very hard to say you can't fall. Heb. 6:4 is not discussing your everyday kind of failure (sin) it is discussing apostasy. I'll try to explain it the best I can.

apostasy (Gk., apostasia, falling away) Total renunciation of the Christian faith by a believer
Start with this definition and head toward Matt. 12:31.
Matt.12:31

31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

We can see from this passage that there IS a sin that will not be forgiven!

Apostasy is blasphemy against the Spirit! Believing in your heart and confessing with your month and then getting to a point that you renounce the faith completely. From this state you can't return because you have denied the Spirit that lives in you (you have blasphemed the Holy Ghost).

From all other sins you can be restored if you confess and repent but from these you can't return.

[Sold Out]

Saved again? Not following that notion.



Here Paul is saying that he keeps his flesh in check so it does not overtake his spirit and the will of God.

And, what test was Paul given each time he preached? Had he not preached of God, then what? Paul here was relaying what he attempts to do to keep himself from not being able to pass the test which is the test at judgement. That is the only test that matters. To say he was afraid of messing up and not to be used by God again is saying that Paul was not humble but prideful. That I think you may draw several arguements on.



We can indeed trip and skin a knee. But the issue here is, per the Hebrews 6 verse in the OP and your example, did Paul know enough to have tasted the glory and mercy, to have known God and the Spirit to where falling away would have earned him eternal seperation from God?

How can we answer but yes.

Sorry, I disagree. If those who cling to Hebrews 6 to support losing salvation are going to stick with it, then they are going to have to admit that it states one can never be brought back to repentance....which means, NEVER SAVED AGAIN.

[threebigrocks]

Sorry, I disagree. If those who cling to Hebrews 6 to support losing salvation are going to stick with it, then they are going to have to admit that it states one can never be brought back to repentance....which means, NEVER SAVED AGAIN.

No. Once one falls away from Christ in that light, they can never be "resaved".

I stumble. You stumble. But that doesn't make us damned. What is spoken of here is fully knowing Christ, and turning away anyhow, deliberately.

And, there is much more than Hebrews 6 to support the idea of truly falling away from God.

[Sold Out]

No. Once one falls away from Christ in that light, they can never be "resaved".

I stumble. You stumble. But that doesn't make us damned. What is spoken of here is fully knowing Christ, and turning away anyhow, deliberately.

And, there is much more than Hebrews 6 to support the idea of truly falling away from God.

You are tiptoeing around this verse. It clearly states that one cannot have the knowledge of Christ, turn away willfully, and ever be brought back to repentance (salvation). This person can never be saved again.

I do not believe this verse supports you can lose salvation, because if it does, then there are many people who have no hope of ever being saved 'again'.

[threebigrocks]

I do not believe this verse supports you can lose salvation, because if it does, then there are many people who have no hope of ever being saved 'again'.

And that is why this topic is a hard one to accept at face value. I did not come to the understanding I did lightly, nor in a day. It took me months, and I took in both sides of the issue. I did not lean on my own understanding on this issue, but what was revealed to me by the Spirit through the Word.

This is not the proper forum to get into a debate, but am willing to step into this discussion in an A&E manner. (If you wish more debate on this in the manner please start a thread in Bible Chat.)

If someone you were sharing the gospel with mentioned their friend who seemed to be a Christian, but was disheartened from Christianity because their friend has stopped doing 'religious stuff', how would you reason that to them, yet not turn them away from Christianity?