Two basic questions I have...

[SpeakSlow]

Jesus says that some people who perform healings and miracles and cast out demons in his name never knew him and he will cast them into the lake of fire.

-How did they do these things without ever actually "knowing" Jesus? I thought this was a must. Some will say that the Devil can enable "fake" signs and miracles...but what does Satan accomplish by doing that? All he did was lead more people to Christ by making someone look like they love Jesus and perform miracles by his name. Where in that is Satan's victory?

-What kind of hope does this give us? That an individual who does all these things in Jesus' name can and does end up in Hell? This worries me to say the least. That I could be performing wonders and still not be saved...


Thanks in Advance!

[Brother Mark]

Blessings SlowSpeak. If you look at the passage, they argue that the reason they should be let into heaven are their works. Jesus has often said that we are not justified by our works. It is only in Christ that we can get to heaven. He was warning people about listening to false prophets that are wolves in sheep's clothing. And their message? Works save.

Perhaps someone else can address the issue of the works that they did.

Blessings,

Mark

[SpeakSlow]

Blessings SlowSpeak. If you look at the passage, they argue that the reason they should be let into heaven are their works. Jesus has often said that we are not justified by our works. It is only in Christ that we can get to heaven. He was warning people about listening to false prophets that are wolves in sheep's clothing. And their message? Works save.

Perhaps someone else can address the issue of the works that they did.

Blessings,

Mark

I thought faith enabled works?

[rmt0005]

Blessings SlowSpeak. If you look at the passage, they argue that the reason they should be let into heaven are their works. Jesus has often said that we are not justified by our works. It is only in Christ that we can get to heaven. He was warning people about listening to false prophets that are wolves in sheep's clothing. And their message? Works save.

Perhaps someone else can address the issue of the works that they did.

Blessings,

Mark

I don't think they are arguing that they should enter in because of their works. That is part of what they say at the end of the first verse, "...and in they name done many wonderful works", but that is their last statement. They first mention prophecying and casting out devils. To me that is not "works" as in feeding the hungry or taking care of the poor. If you consider those works, look at Mat 7:21 at Jesus' requirement to enter: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Would you consider doing the will of the Father to be "works"?

[rchivers]

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Aparently you have to be be good boys and girls after your saved. Iniquity is the key word for me here.

[Brother Mark]

I thought faith enabled works?

It does! But that does not mean we trust in our works. When standing before God, for what reason will he let you enter? Your works? Or the works of Christ and your trust in him?

John 6:28-30
28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God ?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
NASB

Blessings,

Mark

[Brother Mark]

A couple of other things to keep in mind...

God did not say "Depart from me for I knew you before but I no longer know you now". He said "Depart from me... for I never knew you". These are people that never belonged to the Father. They were never his. He never "knew" them.

What's even more amazing is he said that they were "workers of iniquity".

Also keep in mind that Jesus did not say they did those works. But rather, it was the people begging to enter that said "have we not done these works in your name..."

See, this passage was to warn of wolves in sheep's clothing. Let us not lose sight of that. Do you remember when the Pharisees called the Spirit of Jesus a demon?

Look at this verse...

John 16:2
2 "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God .
NASB

The pharisees will one day stand before God and say "we cast out demons in your name and prophesied in your name and did miracles in your name". But in reality, they did not do these works for God for they were blind!

As I posted above, what works is God looking for? What is his will?

John 6:26-30
26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal." 28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God ?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
NASB

So let us work the works of God and believe in Jesus. Then we can stand before the father and say "The blood of Jesus has cleansed me." And he will say "Enter in my beloved son. For without faith, it is impossible to please me. And it pleases me much that you have faith in my Son."

Blessings,

Mark

[Braves27]

1)No, more people wouldn't be led to Christ by these fake signs. They would be led to follow whatever preacher is performing them, and since they were not of Christ, obviously anyone who follows them won't be. So, actually it's deceptive in the same way catholicism is, in that people think they're following Christ, and so they get comfortable, while they're actually headed to their own destruction. That is a victory for Satan.


2)It should worry you! It should make you say to yourself, if people can do all these things and not be right with God, how perfect do you have to be to get into heaven?? Or what is real evidence of being right with God? (Or course the Bible will answer all your questions) And it should motivate you to go above and beyond what lots of "Christians" will tell you is acceptable.

[Matthew]

I think Brother Mark has given some excellent answers. I do want to clarify one thing. Faith does not enable works. Anyone can go out and do good works. There are tons of examples of people doing good works but they do not have faith in Jesus.


Faith does result in works though. As James tells us, faith without works is dead.

[justsurfing]

Hi,

Well, there are always counterfeits of what is real.

In the OT, Moses - by the Spirit of God - threw down his rod/walking stick... and it became a snake!

That was a miracle by the Spirit of God.

BUT, then the magicians of Pharoah... who did not know God like Moses did... threw down their rod/walking sticks... and THEY became snakes!

The evil magicians counterfeited the same miracles that were done by God through Moses... and it wasn't God working those miracles. It was another spirit that was not of God (though God, of course, allowed them to do these "lying signs and wonders").

Anyway, Jesus will say to these counterfeits, "I never knew you."

These people were as "fake" as the evil magicians.

They were not of God nor were they working the real Spirit works of God.

So, if anyone knows God and is known of God... they are the true believers... but the Bible says to beware because many false prophets are gone into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ (clearly, not by true living faith though some are in the church as messengers of Satan - counterfeits working counterfeit "lying" signs and wonders).

Does this help?

Not everyone who says they are a Christian is truly a born-again believer - and some of these false Christians - false apostles - false prophets - messengers of Satan... are used by the devil to work counterfeit signs and wonders just as the evil magicians of pharoah did in the days of Moses.

This scripture does not teach, at all, that any true believer can lose salvation.

In fact, Jesus expressly states "never" to prove to all true believers that these people who "claim" to have done all these good works are LIARS... who Jesus never knew and were never saved.

The "mask" is pulled off the wolves in sheep's clothing on Judgment Day - that's all that's happening when Jesus addresses these liars and hypocrites with seared consciences - who lie straight to the face of Jesus.

So, since they lie straight to Jesus' face... it's not surprising when they lie to us here on earth.

(And I personally believe God does indeed use true believers through whom God works miracles, etc.)

Love in Christ,

js

[ProjectPeter]

A couple of other things to keep in mind...

God did not say "Depart from me for I knew you before but I no longer know you now". He said "Depart from me... for I never knew you". These are people that never belonged to the Father. They were never his. He never "knew" them.

What's even more amazing is he said that they were "workers of iniquity".

Also keep in mind that Jesus did not say they did those works. But rather, it was the people begging to enter that said "have we not done these works in your name..."

See, this passage was to warn of wolves in sheep's clothing. Let us not lose sight of that. Do you remember when the Pharisees called the Spirit of Jesus a demon?

Look at this verse...

John 16:2
2 "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God .
NASB

The pharisees will one day stand before God and say "we cast out demons in your name and prophesied in your name and did miracles in your name". But in reality, they did not do these works for God for they were blind!

As I posted above, what works is God looking for? What is his will?

John 6:26-30
26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal." 28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God ?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
NASB

So let us work the works of God and believe in Jesus. Then we can stand before the father and say "The blood of Jesus has cleansed me." And he will say "Enter in my beloved son. For without faith, it is impossible to please me. And it pleases me much that you have faith in my Son."

Blessings,

Mark

Let me toss something in here though and ponder it and let me know what you think.

What does this mean in regard to God's remembering our sin?

Psalms 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

I would think it safe to say that once God has forgiven us of XXX then God isn't going to tell us one day... Even though you were an XXXer I am still going to let your XXXer self enter in my gates even though as an XXXer you are not worthy a lick. You are forgiven and that isn't counted against you. It is remembered no more. You are no longer dead but now alive.

The flipside of that coin:

Ezekiel 18:14 ¶"Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.
15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry, and covers the naked with clothing,
17 he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18 "As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 ¶"Yet you say, `Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?´ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness, and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 ¶"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 ¶"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25 "Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not right.´ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Why do we think it different with the righteous man who turns to iniquity? God's way of no remembering is pretty much a done deal. Our sin isn't remembered when we are righteous and when we are rigteous and turn to sin... our righteousness is just as forgotten.

Make sense? OH I BET MANY WILL SAY BUT, BUT, BUT!!!

[justsurfing]

Why do we think it different with the righteous man who turns to iniquity? God's way of no remembering is pretty much a done deal. Our sin isn't remembered when we are righteous and when we are rigteous and turn to sin... our righteousness is just as forgotten.

Make sense? OH I BET MANY WILL SAY BUT, BUT, BUT!!!

[/QUOTE]

Hi ProjectPeter,

But... the Bible says we are the righteousness of God in Christ.

In our salvations, God didn't just make us forgiven... He gave us a new heart and a new spirit... and made us a new creation.

And that new creation is the righteousness of God in Christ.

While there may be sin warring in our members... our spirits battle that flesh.

That's never going to change... until we leave this body.

The nature of our born-again spirits will never change... and it is our spirits that will return to God who made them.

So.... what sin is possible to hold against a born-again spirit made alive and new in Christ?

That's the question I will ask.

What do you see?

Love in Christ,

js

[Brother Mark]

Let me toss something in here though and ponder it and let me know what you think.

What does this mean in regard to God's remembering our sin?

Psalms 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

I would think it safe to say that once God has forgiven us of XXX then God isn't going to tell us one day... Even though you were an XXXer I am still going to let your XXXer self enter in my gates even though as an XXXer you are not worthy a lick. You are forgiven and that isn't counted against you. It is remembered no more. You are no longer dead but now alive.

The flipside of that coin:

Ezekiel 18:14 ¶"Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.
15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry, and covers the naked with clothing,
17 he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18 "As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 ¶"Yet you say, `Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?´ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness, and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 ¶"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 ¶"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25 "Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not right.´ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Why do we think it different with the righteous man who turns to iniquity? God's way of no remembering is pretty much a done deal. Our sin isn't remembered when we are righteous and when we are rigteous and turn to sin... our righteousness is just as forgotten.

Make sense? OH I BET MANY WILL SAY BUT, BUT, BUT!!!

But isn't there a difference between not remembering and never knowing? I read "never knew you" differently than "I don't remember you".

But you bring up some great points! Paul was concerned about being shipwrecked. If he was concerned, then certainly we should as well!

Blessings,

Mark

[ProjectPeter]

Hi ProjectPeter,

But... the Bible says we are the righteousness of God in Christ.

In our salvations, God didn't just make us forgiven... He gave us a new heart and a new spirit... and made us a new creation.

And that new creation is the righteousness of God in Christ.

While there may be sin warring in our members... our spirits battle that flesh.

That's never going to change... until we leave this body.

The nature of our born-again spirits will never change... and it is our spirits that will return to God who made them.

So.... what sin is possible to hold against a born-again spirit made alive and new in Christ?

That's the question I will ask.

What do you see?

Love in Christ,

js

I see something at the end of the smiley in my post. Drag your cursor on that last line and keep going then notice my highlight in your post ...

What I see is what Jesus said. Many will say Lord, Lord... I did this and that and He will say.... I never knew you.

This isn't talking about being made a new creation nor is it speaking of the battle that man will have between their spirit and flesh... etc. So I hesitate to try and hunt through the Bible to get passages out to fit various doctrines. I try and deal with the passage in question and then form doctrine around Scripture as opposed to conforming Scripture to doctrine. Make sense?

[ProjectPeter]

But isn't there a difference between not remembering and never knowing? I read "never knew you" differently than "I don't remember you".

But you bring up some great points! Paul was concerned about being shipwrecked. If he was concerned, then certainly we should as well!

Blessings,

Mark

Point is... if God never remembers your righteousness Mark... then would he know you as righteous? According to Ezekiel... it is your iniquity that will be remembered and it is your iniquity you will die in. Jesus said? "Away from me you worker of iniquity (lawlessness depending on translations)." That is how the person would be judged, viewed, and remembered.