Two basic questions I have...

[ProjectPeter]

Hi Watchinginawe,

I am not meaning to be difficult, nor did I mean to fall into an OSAS/NOSAS Debate, although I guess I did contributing in making it one.

Bummer! Shoot Lisa! We've not had a good one in a while so hey... contribute away!

For the record I believe that a person cannot lose their salvation.
I went back and read PP's Ezekiel Scripture. If I interpret it does that open a can of worms?

I am just going to take a guess and say that that could be a ceremonial type of righteousness or religion and not the righteousness found in Phil 3:7-9. Also the punishment is a physical punishment not a spiritual loss of salvation.

Let's go with that then Lisa.

What is the promise to those who do righteousness? They will live. Is that speaking of those who do these ceremonial type righteous religious things will live and not die? History shows us that that ain't the case because they all died. So the life spoken of here is no "physical" life and that is obvious.

When it comes to the "die" part... folks want to make that a physical thing because truth be told... that Ezekiel passage is one of the most clear passages in the Bible on the whole issue of NOSAS. Problem is... that death can't be physical either because look around at the living unholy folk walking the earth. THe fact that they will die one day is no different than the fact that the righteous will one day die as well. It is an appointment that all men will make. That death is talking about spiritual death as well.

Now as to the type of righteousness... you think it is speaking of ceremonial or religious stuff... but here's the problem with that. Ezekiel, speaking for God, tells us that this righteousness being spoken of is a righteousness that gives life. Ceremonial, religious deeds do not. So I'd have to try and challenge you to take a closer look at what is being said in that passage. It really is a great one.

[ProjectPeter]

It must be a tough thing to live in fear that you MAY be saved.

Jesus Christ loved me first, and will never let me go.
This truth gives me confidence "whenever my heart condemns me"
(see 1 John Ch.3)

Why would you even think for a second that I live in fear?

[ProjectPeter]

NLT 1 Cor. 5:5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed[a] and he himself[b] will be saved on the day the Lord[c] returns.

NIV 1 Cor 5:5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

These versions are more decisive.

"he himself will be saved"

Notice that if this man cannot bring his sinful nature, or his body, under control by the Spirit - God will end that battle.

The flesh/sinful nature will be destroyed...and he himself, the spirit, saved on the day of the Lord.

How could the sinful nature be destroyed... if he lost his salvation?

Not possible. That wouldn't be loss of salvation in death - rather final victory in Jesus over death: "Death where is thy sting? Where is thy victory?"

As Christians, we are separated forever from sin when we die... because we are no longer encumbered by flesh... and it's our born-again spirits that return to God.

His born-again spirit would have to be destroyed to lose salvation. And nowhere in this scripture say his spirit will be destroyed - just the sinful nature and flesh at physical death.

Love in Christ,

js

Those are two of the most doctrinal leaning/slanted translations written. If you look hard enough you'll always be able to find a translation or Greek/Hebrew scholar that will back most any position that one wants to take.

[ProjectPeter]

Ya gotta understand... Jesus is my Spouse.

And if my Spouse said, "You better love me... or I'm gonna dump you!!"

I'd say, "I love you about as much as you love me. Get out."

I would. And He'd deserve it!

He's not like that. He's wonderful.

No NOSAS for me.

I mean, do I have a point?

Have you ever read the Old Testament? God made it clear way back that this is what He expects and do this and live or do this and die. We are constantly told in the Epistles that we should look to that as our example. God does in fact expect much from us and He has ever right to do so. Yes, His mercy is so abundant and beyond our wildest imagination. His grace is extreme. But even there God has limits and Scripture makes that abundantly clear as well.

[ProjectPeter]

There are much better passages on both sides. And it is a subject worthy of study! Perhaps we have been chosen to study it. I have no agenda when it comes to OSAS or NOSAS.

For this passage, I cannot get around the Greek definition of the word "never" which specifically brings time into the verse (not at any time have I known you). It was for this reason, I pushed the point. I just think this passage is only about wolves that say they work miracles. But God has not known them at any time.

Combine that, with the questions that were asked by the OP, and it seemed appropriate to point her to faith in Christ and away from faith in miracles.

Blessings,

Mark

Oh yeah... miracles, manifestations, and whatnot mean nothing in the grand scheme of things no matter the side of the aisle a person sits on the NOSAS/OSAS issue. Without faith it means nothing just as without love it means nothing.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Those are two of the most doctrinal leaning/slanted translations written. If you look hard enough you'll always be able to find a translation or Greek/Hebrew scholar that will back most any position that one wants to take.

Now I gotta stop and ask PP, for you've peeked my curiosity --- how so? Although I do not use either of these translations daily, I'm curious as to what stream you see these versions using and then ask why you say that they are 'one of the two most doctrinal leaning/slanted translations written?'

Curious minds [mine] would like to know....

[watchinginawe]

Watchinawe and others,
...
What difference was there between him and me? He knew the Bible was true.

The only difference between him and me was the grace of God by which I had a saving faith that believed... and he never did.

So... to say that I'm somehow "smarter" or "better" than my husband was... I'm not.

How do you explain how someone like me was saved... and my husband who went forward to get what other Christians had... was not saved?

You turned away from sin and toward Christ. You turned. If your ex was never saved, he never turned away from his sin and never turned toward Christ and believed. Generally speaking, those who believe we can turn away from faith in Christ also believe we can turn away from sin to Christ (or more succinctly, refuse to turn toward Christ). It is the heart of our theological difference. The difference between monergism and synergism. I'm a synergist so I am not perplexed with why you were chosen and your ex was not.

God Bless!

[ProjectPeter]

Now I gotta stop and ask PP, for you've peeked my curiosity --- how so? Although I do not use either of these translations daily, I'm curious as to what stream you see these versions using and then ask why you say that they are 'one of the two most doctrinal leaning/slanted translations written?'

Curious minds [mine] would like to know....

Oh the NIV has always been that way and many agree to that from whatever side of the NOSAS/OSAS aisle. BadDog and I have agreed to this and he and I have debated this issue as long as we've both been in this forum!

The NIV takes a very Southern Baptist slant and did from day one. That is why I always chuckled when I heard Pentecostals read from the NIV. I knew that sooner or later it was going to give them heartburn!

THE NLT... that has a more Charismatic flare to it and the 2nd Edition very much leans towards making the passages doctrinally leaning towards OSAS. Much like the ESV was written with the Reformed doctrine in mind (I still like my ESV though).

Shoot... Google it and there are a lot smarter minds than mine who have scholarly articles on the various translations!

[watchinginawe]

Not at all. Again... the point David made in saying God's forgiveness is so great that he puts it away as far as the east is from the west would be that God forgets it in ways that we can't fathom. It's gone. Never to be remembered. If God NEVER remembers that sin once forgiven then that sin is wiped clean or as put by Paul... nailed to the cross. The contrast between God sin and righteousness is drawn clearly in that Ezekiel passage. God treats them both the same in that regard.

Now if God forgets their righteousness (in which time they cast out demons, did miracles, prophesied in Jesus name) then it is forgotten... as far as the east is from the west. That is how God forgets. So no... I never knew you would not be inappropriately said or used and it makes perfect sense to me!

Now, I am going to throw in a thought that just birthed in my head. It is a new thought for me. I had stated before that whether we believe those who turn away from faith were never saved in the first place, reprobate, backslidden, etc., that the Bible warns of those who do. Putting together "God's forgetfulness" into that thought, it would seem from God's point of view they were never saved in the first place, He "never knew them". I'm going to have to mull that one over a bit. Considering the converse of that, from God's point of view, having forgotten our sins when we are saved, we were always saved in the first place, He "has always known us".

Of course the flaw with trying to postulate how God "forgets and remembers" is that we really can't comprehend God's ways. He has given us the scriptures and they are full of warnings about turning away from faith, so it would be wise for us to heed what God has warned about.

God Bless!

[Lisadawn]

Bummer! Shoot Lisa! We've not had a good one in a while so hey... contribute away!

Let's go with that then Lisa.

Welllllll, I need to clean my carpet today, but........the serpent beguiled me....


Really, I am not good at this and not going to argue the Ezekiel Scripture until I have actually gone back and read the thing......in context.

BUT....I have a question I have always wanted to know for you NOSAS folk.

How many sins does it take to lose your salvation?

Lisa

[ProjectPeter]

Now, I am going to throw in a thought that just birthed in my head. It is a new thought for me. I had stated before that whether we believe those who turn away from faith were never saved in the first place, reprobate, backslidden, etc., that the Bible warns of those who do. Putting together "God's forgetfulness" into that thought, it would seem from God's point of view they were never saved in the first place, He "never knew them". I'm going to have to mull that one over a bit. Considering the converse of that, from God's point of view, having forgotten our sins when we are saved, we were always saved in the first place, He "has always known us".

Of course the flaw with trying to postulate how God "forgets and remembers" is that we really can't comprehend God's ways. He has given us the scriptures and they are full of warnings about turning away from faith, so it would be wise for us to heed what God has warned about.

God Bless!

And that is exactly why I have many times less problem with the Reformed version of once saved, always saved. As I have said to many of them... where we will ultimately agree is that the person isn't saved and in need of a Savior. It is a technicality mind you... but as you say... God is God and His ways are far beyond our meager understanding.

[ProjectPeter]

Welllllll, I need to clean my carpet today, but........the serpent beguiled me....


Really, I am not good at this and not going to argue the Ezekiel Scripture until I have actually gone back and read the thing......in context.

BUT....I have a question I have always wanted to know for you NOSAS folk.

How many sins does it take to lose your salvation?

Lisa

It is a lifestyle... practicing sin that is the problem. David committed various sins that we know of and not one of those sins were enough for God to wash His hands of David. His lifestyle wasn't one of practicing sin. That is also what we are warned of throughout the Epistles. One sin is sin and bad enough. But to steal a Veggie Tales phrase... God is bigger than the boogey man.

[markedward]

A group of Jews was traveling from town to town casting out evil spirits. They tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus in their incantation, saying, “I command you in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, to come out!” Seven sons of Sceva, a leading priest, were doing this. But one time when they tried it, the evil spirit replied, “I know Jesus, and I have heard of Paul, but who are you?” Then the man with the evil spirit leaped on them, overpowered them, and attacked them with such violence that they fled from the house, naked and battered.

As the story suggests, these Jews were able to cast out demons using Jesus' name (except for one demon who figured out they were fakes), though they weren't actual followers of Christ. They were simply using His name, but they weren't truly following Him as Paul and others were.

[justsurfing]

Those are two of the most doctrinal leaning/slanted translations written. If you look hard enough you'll always be able to find a translation or Greek/Hebrew scholar that will back most any position that one wants to take.

Hi Project,

I would think Christians would fear God in translating the Bible. The NIV and the NLT... slanted?

I grew up reading the KJV. Loved it. Poetically beautiful. Seems to have a semantic "rhythm" to it.

Then I started reading the NIV as an adult.

Then my daughter bought me an NLT... and I so enjoy that one too.

I'm not, personally, "picking Bibles" because I'm prejudiced trying to twist scripture to prove a point.

You think Christians are twisting the Word of God? In a translation?

I thought they were just speaking in more modern language.

Maybe you are "ruling out" things because they don't fit into your schema? Paradigm?

Because I don't sit and try to twist the Bible to fit my mind - like my mind is so narrow.

It wasn't "easy" to see what I came to see in scripture. It was painful, difficult, and took a lot of death to myself.

It's not an "easy way out" kind of a doctrine.

It's a doctrine that gives no credit or glory to me... and gives all glory to God.

If I was trying to justify myself, I'd probly be more prone to lean in the other direction... don't ya think?

Something that made me feel really good about myself - powerful - in control - something?

What I believe leaves me helpless and powerless in myself apart from God's grace. Nothing I'd "naturally" pursue... because it's not at all flattering. Plus, tends to "bring God on the scene" so powerfully - my whole life seems to be so impacted like I'm going to have to "rock the world for Jesus" or something. People at work think I'm a "superhero"... I have all this responsibility... people at church think I'm so remarkable it's incredible... and I don't get to have a "normal life". Why? Cause God comes on so powerfully... it's "out of this world"... and my life will never be the same... yet I can't give it up either... cause I'm "addicted" to the Love and grace and glory and presence of God.

Yep, I'm a "slave" to grace now!



All it cost me was... all my pride... in brief moments... I feel like a person who's been reduced to nil... and I can't even muster enough self-will to refuse to admit when I'm wrong... can't hold a grudge... am such a bleeding heart... I'm so empathetic... it's taken away from me the things most people have in this life... I"m like a pawn in the Lord's hand!!!

But I so love the presence of God... I can't quit believing in God's 100% grace in the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
Love in Christ,

js

[justsurfing]

Have you ever read the Old Testament? God made it clear way back that this is what He expects and do this and live or do this and die. We are constantly told in the Epistles that we should look to that as our example. God does in fact expect much from us and He has ever right to do so. Yes, His mercy is so abundant and beyond our wildest imagination. His grace is extreme. But even there God has limits and Scripture makes that abundantly clear as well.

So what would God do if He was really ticked at me for my sin?

And I... pushed the limit?

Beat me?

Hit me with a whip?

Spit on my face?

Crucify me?

Oh, yeah!

He already did that to Jesus Christ in my place... and as far as I can tell... there's no limit to the power of the blood of Jesus.

Can you tell me exactly where you see the "limit" of God's Love towards me through Jesus Christ?

Because my Bible says nothing in any realm nothing at all... could ever separate me from the Love of God.

In other words... Love without limit due to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ... by the power of the Spirit... by the body and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No limit.

Nothing will ever separate me from His Love.

There's no such thing as "divorce" in marriage to the Lord Jesus Christ... sealed by the Spirit... washed in His blood.

I am the body of Christ and Satan hath no power over me for I overcome evil with good.

Love in Christ,

js