Two basic questions I have...

[justsurfing]

But isn't there a difference between not remembering and never knowing? I read "never knew you" differently than "I don't remember you".

But you bring up some great points! Paul was concerned about being shipwrecked. If he was concerned, then certainly we should as well!

Blessings,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Paul was shipwrecked, physically, in the Bible.

He didn't lose his life.

He just didn't get to the safe port in the same amount of time.

So, if we are not obedient... we might not get from point A to point B and have all the cargo saved.

But we won't lose our eternal lives.

The ship was lost. The cargo was lost. But in the shipwreck Paul was in physically in the Bible... not one person lost their life.

"Shipwreck" does not equal loss of salvation.

I wouldn't want my faith shipwrecked... sitting on an island... having to wait to be taken back on course.

But I'd know I would not lose my life in Christ... eternal life.

Whatta do you think of that?

Shipwreck faith does not equal loss of salvation. One still has faith. It's just on an island... like Jonah in a whale.

Paul still got where he was going.

So did Jonah.

Cause God was in control of the whale swallowing Jonah... as well as spitting Jonah up on dry land.

Jonah's faith was shipwrecked (remember, Jonah got thrown off the ship?)... but God was faithful... and Jonah got to his destination.

We all will.

Through Christ.

Whatta ya think?

Love in Christ,

js

[Brother Mark]

Point is... if God never remembers your righteousness Mark... then would he know you as righteous? According to Ezekiel... it is your iniquity that will be remembered and it is your iniquity you will die in. Jesus said? "Away from me you worker of iniquity (lawlessness depending on translations)." That is how the person would be judged, viewed, and remembered.

Almost I agree! But the last phrase does change it for me. When he says "I never knew you" that to me qualifies the statement. Would it be correct to say "I never knew you" if indeed, you were once known by God?

In the passages you used, God did say they would not be remembered! That seems to me to be slightly but significantly different than "never known".

Here is the greek word used for "never"

NT:3763

NT:3763 oudepote (oo-dep'-ot-eh); from NT:3761 and NT:4218; not even at any time, i.e. never at all:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Blessings,

Mark

[ProjectPeter]

Hi Mark,

Paul was shipwrecked, physically, in the Bible.

He didn't lose his life.

He just didn't get to the safe port in the same amount of time.

So, if we are not obedient... we might not get from point A to point B and have all the cargo saved.

But we won't lose our eternal lives.

The ship was lost. The cargo was lost. But in the shipwreck Paul was in physically in the Bible... not one person lost their life.

"Shipwreck" does not equal loss of salvation.

I wouldn't want my faith shipwrecked... sitting on an island... having to wait to be taken back on course.

But I'd know I would not lose my life in Christ... eternal life.

Whatta do you think of that?

Shipwreck faith does not equal loss of salvation. One still has faith. It's just on an island... like Jonah in a whale.

Paul still got where he was going.

So did Jonah.

Cause God was in control of the whale swallowing Jonah... as well as spitting Jonah up on dry land.

Jonah's faith was shipwrecked (remember, Jonah got thrown off the ship?)... but God was faithful... and Jonah got to his destination.

We all will.

Through Christ.

Whatta ya think?

Love in Christ,

js

Let's run with your analogy here.

Acts 27:21 And when they had gone a long time without food, then Paul stood up in their midst and said, "Men, you ought to have followed my advice and not to have set sail from Crete, and incurred this damage and loss.
22 "And yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there shall be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship.
23 "For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
24 saying, `Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.´
25 "Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God, that it will turn out exactly as I have been told.
26 "But we must run aground on a certain island."
27 ¶But when the fourteenth night had come, as we were being driven about in the Adriatic Sea, about midnight the sailors began to surmise that they were approaching some land.
28 And they took soundings, and found it to be twenty fathoms; and a little farther on they took another sounding and found it to be fifteen fathoms.
29 And fearing that we might run aground somewhere on the rocks, they cast four anchors from the stern and wished for daybreak.
30 And as the sailors were trying to escape from the ship, and had let down the ship's boat into the sea, on the pretense of intending to lay out anchors from the bow,
31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."
32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship's boat, and let it fall away.

They had to endure to the end... jump ship then they died.

[justsurfing]

I see something at the end of the smiley in my post. Drag your cursor on that last line and keep going then notice my highlight in your post ...

What I see is what Jesus said. Many will say Lord, Lord... I did this and that and He will say.... I never knew you.

This isn't talking about being made a new creation nor is it speaking of the battle that man will have between their spirit and flesh... etc. So I hesitate to try and hunt through the Bible to get passages out to fit various doctrines. I try and deal with the passage in question and then form doctrine around Scripture as opposed to conforming Scripture to doctrine. Make sense?

Hi,

I think you're funny!

(I did that on purpose you know... hee hee... I really did. I love plays on words... and making running jokes like that. Glad you do too!)

Thanks for highlighting that "but".

lol

BUT.. hee hee... the Bible says line upon line and precept upon precept. We can't be having conflicting lines, precepts, or BUTS my friend!

If your understanding of one passages conflicts with another passage - how do you splain that?

Lucy! Lucy! Lucy!

You got some splaining to do!!!

(That's what Ricky Ricardo said to Lucy. She was really good at taking one thing... and running with it!!!)

lol

You took a scripture from the OT and used it to apply to this passage. But in the OT... weren't nobody saved... born-again.

Where in the NT does it say that a truly born-again Christian... ever stops being the righteousness of God in Christ?

Cause the Bible says we are made righteous by faith - not works.



You got some splaining to do.



Where does it say in the NT... that believers become... unbelievers?? That Jesus never knew?

No ifs, ands or BUTS.

hee hee

(I don't take scripture and "force it"... the scripture interpreting scripture resulted in what I see... not the other way around.)

ygoloeht "tub"



(That's "but" theology the other way around. lol)

Love in Christ,

js

[justsurfing]

Let's run with your analogy here.

Acts 27:21 And when they had gone a long time without food, then Paul stood up in their midst and said, "Men, you ought to have followed my advice and not to have set sail from Crete, and incurred this damage and loss.
22 "And yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there shall be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship.
23 "For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
24 saying, `Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.´
25 "Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God, that it will turn out exactly as I have been told.
26 "But we must run aground on a certain island."
27 ¶But when the fourteenth night had come, as we were being driven about in the Adriatic Sea, about midnight the sailors began to surmise that they were approaching some land.
28 And they took soundings, and found it to be twenty fathoms; and a little farther on they took another sounding and found it to be fifteen fathoms.
29 And fearing that we might run aground somewhere on the rocks, they cast four anchors from the stern and wished for daybreak.
30 And as the sailors were trying to escape from the ship, and had let down the ship's boat into the sea, on the pretense of intending to lay out anchors from the bow,
31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."
32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship's boat, and let it fall away.

They had to endure to the end... jump ship then they died.

OK, I'm in a little bit of a silly demeanor... Lucy, Lucy, Lucy... and let's run with it! lol



The ship fell apart.

The whale didn't.

lol

The body will perish.

The spirit will live.

We will never lose our salvation.

We'll just be free of the body... the flesh... that, on occasion, shipwrecks our faith.

It's not possible to "jump ship"... cause we can't do one of those Disney movie things... and change bodies.

lol

But we ARE the body of Christ... and this perishable will put on the imperishable!!!

There will be no loss of life... in Christ.

He is the ark of the covenant...a nd the promise stands.

Though the earth will perish... and all of the world will perish as in the days of Noah... the ark of safety... th eark of the covenant... the body of Christ... is eternal... and I am in Him... and His ship... will never go down!!!



Just kidding.

I'm not mad at all.



I'm cool.

Really, I am.

lol

Love in Christ,

js

[justsurfing]

OK... here's a little more running with the analogy... related to "I never knew thee".

Shipwrecked. Train wrecked. Homewrecker.

This guy's faith was "shipwrecked". It was a "train wreck".

He was a "homewrecker"... and an extreme example.

He was committing unrepentant immorality - with his father's wife. That is a sin worthy of stoning under the OT.

So, under the OT scriptures you stated... his unrighteousness in that sin was so great... God would then forget about his salvation... righteousness by faith... if that is how things worked in the NT according to the new covenant.

1 Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with 1 his father’s wife. 5:2 And you are proud! 2 Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this 3 from among you? 5:3 For even though I am absent physically, 4 I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 5 5:4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, 6 and I am with you in spirit, 7 along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5:5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved 8 in the day of the Lord. 9

BUT... the scripture, the Bible, says that his body (that ship) will be destroyed because of sin (should he not repent)... BUT... his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.

Shipwreck. Trainwreck. Homewreck.

The body destroyed... faith shipwrecked... but the spirit saved on Judgment Day.

Wouldn't this guy be a prime example of someone who the Lord "should" say to on Judgment Day, "I never knew you"... and cast into outer darkness? According to how you are reading that scripture in the light of righteousness being forgotten on the basis of works?

But... that isn't what the Bible said would happen.

The Bible said that even if he died on account of faith shipwrecked... and his body handed over to Satan for destruction on account of extreme disobedience... his spirit would be saved on the Day of the Lord.

Jesus will not say to him, "I never knew you".

Jesus will say to him, "Well done thou good and faithful servant."

His spirit will be saved.

I didn't say it was "fair"... just looking at what this man has done.

It takes looking past that, to the cross, to see justice in this judgment.

The blood of Jesus is "fair" because the price was paid by Jesus Christ... and God, in perfect justice, can look at someone washed in that blood - no matter what sins are committed in the body - and say, "By the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, I declare you 'not guilty'. Well done thou good and faithful servant!"

Love in Christ,

js

[ProjectPeter]

Almost I agree! But the last phrase does change it for me. When he says "I never knew you" that to me qualifies the statement. Would it be correct to say "I never knew you" if indeed, you were once known by God?

In the passages you used, God did say they would not be remembered! That seems to me to be slightly but significantly different than "never known".

Here is the greek word used for "never"

NT:3763

NT:3763 oudepote (oo-dep'-ot-eh); from NT:3761 and NT:4218; not even at any time, i.e. never at all:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Blessings,

Mark

How far is God's forgetfulness? Will he remember your sin come judgment day? If no then God's forgetfulness is extremely well... never remembering... as far as east is from the west. If God forgets our iniquity such as this (mentioned in Ezekiel 18 as well) then why do we figure our righteousness would be any different (also mentioned in the Ezekiel passage)?

The use of the word never there would certainly be valid if God didn't remember their righteousness but only their iniquity just as reversing that... he remembers righteousness of the righteous and not their iniquity. Seems simple to me but then it is getting later and the day and I am another day older... maybe I'm just nuts!

[ProjectPeter]

You took a scripture from the OT and used it to apply to this passage. But in the OT... weren't nobody saved... born-again.

Why do people say this? Abraham wasn't born again? Sure he was... by faith. David... by faith. Etc.

Why do you think Jesus said this to Nicodemus?

John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Him by night, and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.´
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?
11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and you do not receive our witness.
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.

This shouldn't have been anything new to a teacher's understanding.

Where in the NT does it say that a truly born-again Christian... ever stops being the righteousness of God in Christ?

Cause the Bible says we are made righteous by faith - not works.



You got some splaining to do.



Where does it say in the NT... that believers become... unbelievers?? That Jesus never knew?

No ifs, ands or BUTS.

hee hee

(I don't take scripture and "force it"... the scripture interpreting scripture resulted in what I see... not the other way around.)

ygoloeht "tub"



(That's "but" theology the other way around. lol)

Love in Christ,

js

It says it throughout... perhaps if the thread progresses there... we'll cover that more.

[ProjectPeter]

OK, I'm in a little bit of a silly demeanor... Lucy, Lucy, Lucy... and let's run with it! lol



The ship fell apart.

The whale didn't.

lol

The body will perish.

The spirit will live.

We will never lose our salvation.

We'll just be free of the body... the flesh... that, on occasion, shipwrecks our faith.

It's not possible to "jump ship"... cause we can't do one of those Disney movie things... and change bodies.

lol

But we ARE the body of Christ... and this perishable will put on the imperishable!!!

There will be no loss of life... in Christ.

He is the ark of the covenant...a nd the promise stands.

Though the earth will perish... and all of the world will perish as in the days of Noah... the ark of safety... th eark of the covenant... the body of Christ... is eternal... and I am in Him... and His ship... will never go down!!!



Just kidding.

I'm not mad at all.



I'm cool.

Really, I am.

lol

Love in Christ,

js

Ok... you totally lost me on this one!

[ProjectPeter]

OK... here's a little more running with the analogy... related to "I never knew thee".

Shipwrecked. Train wrecked. Homewrecker.

This guy's faith was "shipwrecked". It was a "train wreck".

He was a "homewrecker"... and an extreme example.

He was committing unrepentant immorality - with his father's wife. That is a sin worthy of stoning under the OT.

So, under the OT scriptures you stated... his unrighteousness in that sin was so great... God would then forget about his salvation... righteousness by faith... if that is how things worked in the NT according to the new covenant.

1 Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with 1 his father’s wife. 5:2 And you are proud! 2 Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this 3 from among you? 5:3 For even though I am absent physically, 4 I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 5 5:4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, 6 and I am with you in spirit, 7 along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5:5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved 8 in the day of the Lord. 9

BUT... the scripture, the Bible, says that his body (that ship) will be destroyed because of sin (should he not repent)... BUT... his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.

Shipwreck. Trainwreck. Homewreck.

The body destroyed... faith shipwrecked... but the spirit saved on Judgment Day.

Wouldn't this guy be a prime example of someone who the Lord "should" say to on Judgment Day, "I never knew you"... and cast into outer darkness? According to how you are reading that scripture in the light of righteousness being forgotten on the basis of works?

But... that isn't what the Bible said would happen.

The Bible said that even if he died on account of faith shipwrecked... and his body handed over to Satan for destruction on account of extreme disobedience... his spirit would be saved on the Day of the Lord.

Jesus will not say to him, "I never knew you".

Jesus will say to him, "Well done thou good and faithful servant."

His spirit will be saved.

I didn't say it was "fair"... just looking at what this man has done.

It takes looking past that, to the cross, to see justice in this judgment.

The blood of Jesus is "fair" because the price was paid by Jesus Christ... and God, in perfect justice, can look at someone washed in that blood - no matter what sins are committed in the body - and say, "By the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, I declare you 'not guilty'. Well done thou good and faithful servant!"

Love in Christ,

js

There is a vast difference in saying "so that his spirit MAY be saved" and saying "so that his spirit WILL be saved." May implies a possibility... will implies a definite. The translator's did not decide "will" was the correct use of the Greek in this spot.

[Lisadawn]

How far is God's forgetfulness? Will he remember your sin come judgment day? If no then God's forgetfulness is extremely well... never remembering... as far as east is from the west. If God forgets our iniquity such as this (mentioned in Ezekiel 18 as well) then why do we figure our righteousness would be any different (also mentioned in the Ezekiel passage)?

The use of the word never there would certainly be valid if God didn't remember their righteousness but only their iniquity just as reversing that... he remembers righteousness of the righteous and not their iniquity. Seems simple to me but then it is getting later and the day and I am another day older... maybe I'm just nuts!

I don't see a problem. The East and West example is a good one because when traveling East you can never go West, vs versa..You just can't get there from here. So when God says he will not remember, then he will not remember.....

Regarding our righteousness - it is NOT ours, otherwise it would be self-righteousness. Our righteousness comes from Christ!

As for you being just nuts....the jury is still out.......

Lisa

[ProjectPeter]

Right... and if God forgets our iniquity like this and we know he forgets the righteousness if one goes into iniquity... why do we think he forgets the righteousness any different than He does the iniquity?

I'll post it again in the shorter version... context can be seen above or one can pop open the Book to Ezekiel 18!

24 ¶"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

[Lisadawn]

Right... and if God forgets our iniquity like this and we know he forgets the righteousness if one goes into iniquity... why do we think he forgets the righteousness any different than He does the iniquity?

I'll post it again in the shorter version... context can be seen above or one can pop open the Book to Ezekiel 18!

24 ¶"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

All our righteous deeds done in the flesh will not be remembered anyway. An unsaved person has nothing to fall back on except the flesh, and we all know about the "all our unrighteous is as filthy rags" scripture. Isaiah 64:6

In other words if our good works outweigh our bad works are we going to be saved?

.........or if our good works outweigh our bad works are we going to stay saved?

You know that is a definite NO!

Lisa

[ProjectPeter]

That passage in Ezekiel is not talking about righteous deeds done in the flesh. Those deeds have never given anyone life. I don't figure there was a period in Ezekiels time when that sort of thing worked either.

[watchinginawe]

All our righteous deeds done in the flesh will not be remembered anyway. An unsaved person has nothing to fall back on except the flesh, and we all know about the "all our unrighteous is as filthy rags" scripture. Isaiah 64:6

In other words if our good works outweigh our bad works are we going to be saved?

.........or if our good works outweigh our bad works are we going to stay saved?

You know that is a definite NO!

Lisa

I understand where you are coming from. But, what about this?:

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

God Bless!