OSAS: Why I believe it to be correct?

[diffangle]

We are dealing with an extremely deceptive and wise enemy. I don't think it's too far fetched to believe Gods enemy sets religious traps for mankind. Deceiving us,containing us, bogging us down, and turning us into idle and lukewarm hearers only. Seems rather brilliant to me.

from a response to a blog by a guy named jeff

What does Yahushua say He'll do with lukewarm peeps?

Rev 3:16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth.

Doesn't seem to support the OSAS doctrine.

[ProjectPeter]

I like your handle TrustingFollower...I believe you do trust God to keep his promises by that handle... If you don't mind I'd like to ask a question of you and then make an observation into the scripture you mentioned...

Would you say are persuaded that God is faithful to keep something secure if you commit it to Him? If so would you mind giving some thoughts on the following verses???

2nd Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

What has this to do with salvation though because that isn't the context in which Paul is speaking.

2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.


What Paul is speaking of here is the gospel that he preached, taught, and was an apostle of. This now was entrusted to Timothy as Paul knew he was on the very back side of living in the nasty now and now. He's speaking of the gospel... not his salvation.

1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Wow, the promises of God I mentioned before in this post. We are given the ability of partaking of God's devine nature because we are saved from the corruption that was sending us to Hell.

Yes... but keep this in mind when reading on in this letter that Peter wrote.

2 Peter 2:18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

These folks escaped this corruption through salvation too but then some are enticed back into the mess that they had overcome. Now they are again overcome by the mess... and it will be far worse for them than it was before they escaped such corruption. This goes in line with the post I made above to Karenoka... When the king forgave the debt of the servant the judgment meted out before the mercy was pretty strong. When the servant didn't continue in the kindness of the king and that mercy was revoked and judgment again invoked... it was far worse than the first.

1:5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 1:6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise the Living God!!! The fruit of the Spirit in a nutshell.

Bear fruit... I agree that this is exactly the message Peter is giving!

1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

If you are baseing your belief on this particular verse, you might want to take another look at it... That same man who penned

2nd Timothy 1:12 also said: Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ~ 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

reinforcing what Peter wrote in his next verse for you cannot do these things as a spiritual creature unless you are saved and born again. No salvation, no Holy Spirit to make these things manifest and without the Holy Spirit there is no salvation. It goes in a perfect circle.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with a "saved" man but a man still under the law. You get to chapter 8... you get to the saved man. So neither that passage in Romans 7 nor the passage in Timothy have to do with salvation or the security of it etc.

1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

In other words, ya better do some checking up because if you don't do these things, you may not be saved in the first place... That's what the election from God is all about...

Well now here's the problem... if they were "never saved in the first place" then where would they fall from? Can't fall from a tree if you ain't never been up in the tree.

[The Parson]

What has this to do with salvation though because that isn't the context in which Paul is speaking.

2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.


What Paul is speaking of here is the gospel that he preached, taught, and was an apostle of. This now was entrusted to Timothy as Paul knew he was on the very back side of living in the nasty now and now. He's speaking of the gospel... not his salvation.

No, I just can't fully agree with you on that ProPet... Yes, he is talking about the Gospel but clearly the resulting Salvation. You cannot, in my opinion, seperate the two in these passages. Paul didn't commit the Gospel to the Lord, the Gospel was commited to us by God so therefore it must be Salvation of the soul that Paul has commited.

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

[The Parson]

Okay... then back to that James passage.

James 5:19 ¶My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.


For one to stray from the truth... they have to be in the truth. For one to be turned back to the truth... they had to be walking in the truth etc.

Why then does James consider this person a sinner who's soul is saved from death if that soul could never die?

Seperate the flesh from the soul. If the soul be saved (born of God), he, according to 1st John 3:9, cannot sin. Therefore it must be the flesh. Paul quite often told us we need to crucify the flesh. Never once did he say we needed to crucify the soul/spirit/flesh did he? Or any other apostle for that matter. Simply put, if the flesh cannot be born of God because it is corrupt and was conceived in sin, the soul then being born of God cannot sin.

Lets take a particular set of passages that clearly deal with the distinction between the flesh and the spirit man: 1st Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Would you care to expound on this?

[mikebr]

And that is in response to who?

growningingrace.com

[mikebr]

What does Yahushua say He'll do with lukewarm peeps?

Rev 3:16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth.

Doesn't seem to support the OSAS doctrine.

Sure it does, they were lukewarm because they were rich and increased with goods and knew not that they were poor, wretched, miserable, blind and naked. (completely incapable of God's work)
Do you believe that you will eventually make it to God's mouth?

[mikebr]

And that is in response to who?

http://assembling.blogspot.com/2007/...rch-hurts.html

[The Parson]

Well now here's the problem... if they were "never saved in the first place" then where would they fall from? Can't fall from a tree if you ain't never been up in the tree.

C.H. Spergeon once said something I'd like to put in my own words... Imagine a store front with a one way door that has a sign on front saying WHOSOEVER WILL. If someone enters, they are then greeted with a sign that says WELCOME TO THE ELECT. His reasoning, being a Calvanist was to say only the elect will enter. I don't hold to Calvanism but his example was a good one. Those that did not enter the store did not receive salvation and those that did enter became the elect. There may be many outside on the porch proclaiming you need to enter in but they never have themselves. Sure, they have the gospel but they never entered into the store to find it for themselves.

These I believe are the ones the the Lord was speaking of in Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[diffangle]

C.H. Spergeon once said something I'd like to put in my own words... Imagine a store front with a one way door that has a sign on front saying WHOSOEVER WILL. If someone enters, they are then greeted with a sign that says WELCOME TO THE ELECT. His reasoning, being a Calvanist was to say only the elect will enter. I don't hold to Calvanism but his example was a good one. Those that did not enter the store did not receive salvation and those that did enter became the elect. There may be many outside on the porch proclaiming you need to enter in but they never have themselves. Sure, they have the gospel but they never entered into the store to find it for themselves.

These I believe are the ones the the Lord was speaking of in Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

PP pointed out that in order to fall from someplace means that the person had to be in that place in order to fall from it.

1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

He's talking to the brethren here, iow, fellow believers... what happens "if" they don't "do these things"? They then "fall" from a place where they once were.

[The Parson]

PP pointed out that in order to fall from someplace means that the person had to be in that place in order to fall from it.

1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

He's talking to the brethren here, iow, fellow believers... what happens "if" they don't "do these things"? They then "fall" from a place where they once were.

diffangel, do you believe that everyone among the brethren are saved? Just curious. Have you ever seen someone come forward in church to testify that they thought they were saved but weren't? I like the way you make me think my friend. Keeps me on my toes...

[Mograce2U]

An analogy comes to mind regarding dog-training (and Calvinism).

When my dog was a pup I trained him on a leash and he was very obedient while the leash was on. In the house and in the yard he would follow me around even without the leash. But then a big truck came barrelling down the street and he left my side to chase the truck. Now if he had been on his leash he would not have done this because of my restraint over him. But the test of whether one's training is successful, is what will he do when the leash is off? Will he listen to my call and stay protected, or run after the thing that may kill him?

Calvinism seems to think the leash is always on and there is no risk possible from disobedience. But scripture says that God sometimes lets us be to see what we will do when temptation comes. Those who abide in the word of God are like the pup who heeds his master's call. This is not a leash that restrains us against our will, rather it is our will converted by it to obey.

[The Parson]

An analogy comes to mind regarding dog-training (and Calvinism).

When my dog was a pup I trained him on a leash and he was very obedient while the leash was on. In the house and in the yard he would follow me around even without the leash. But then a big truck came barrelling down the street and he left my side to chase the truck. Now if he had been on his leash he would not have done this because of my restraint over him. But the test of whether one's training is successful, is what will he do when the leash is off? Will he listen to my call and stay protected, or run after the thing that may kill him?

Calvinism seems to think the leash is always on and there is no risk possible from disobedience. But scripture says that God sometimes lets us be to see what we will do when temptation comes. Those who abide in the word of God are like the pup who heeds his master's call. This is not a leash that restrains us against our will, rather it is our will converted by it to obey.

I like that anology but if we carry it further we will derail the OP. Well said though. I remember something simular I read written by J.M. Pendleton in the 1840's but I believe his anology was a sheepfold fence that we could jump over.

[diffangle]

[quote]

diffangel,

Sure, I can be an angel also

do you believe that everyone among the brethren are saved?

Would that make them a brother if they aren't saved?

Mar 3:33And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Just curious. Have you ever seen someone come forward in church to testify that they thought they were saved but weren't?

No I haven't. I'm not saying it doesn't happen though... but all that says is that they were never saved. Look at a verse where Yahushua is speaking...

Luk 8:13They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Yahushua isn't talking about those who "thought" they believed, He says they "believed". He then goes on to use that word "fall"... as one who falls from a place they once were.

I like the way you make me think my friend. Keeps me on my toes...

Iron sharpens iron my friend. That's what we're all here for.

[ProjectPeter]

No, I just can't fully agree with you on that ProPet... Yes, he is talking about the Gospel but clearly the resulting Salvation. You cannot, in my opinion, seperate the two in these passages. Paul didn't commit the Gospel to the Lord, the Gospel was commited to us by God so therefore it must be Salvation of the soul that Paul has commited.

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

But then in regard to what he calls entrusted... it isn't his salvation he is speaking of. That has to be clear in the writing... right? If he is speaking of the gospel then that's what he is speaking... why do we take it further?

[ProjectPeter]

Seperate the flesh from the soul. If the soul be saved (born of God), he, according to 1st John 3:9, cannot sin. Therefore it must be the flesh. Paul quite often told us we need to crucify the flesh. Never once did he say we needed to crucify the soul/spirit/flesh did he? Or any other apostle for that matter. Simply put, if the flesh cannot be born of God because it is corrupt and was conceived in sin, the soul then being born of God cannot sin.

Lets take a particular set of passages that clearly deal with the distinction between the flesh and the spirit man: 1st Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Would you care to expound on this?

But then you didn't respond to that James passage which makes it clear... they were saved (had to fall from somewhere) and yet in their error they are sinners in danger of their souls seeing death. I understand what the passage in Corinthians says... but I don't think it is speaking of the same thing here.