Romans 7

[BCF]

But was that not Paul's dilemma in Romans 7. Since he was giving explanation to being dead to the law and being alive to God. That would mean to me that he was trying to explain that even though the law still was there, it had nothing to do with his relationship with God. The only thing that had anything to do with his relationship with God was Christ that lived in him. I don't know, maybe I'm not saying it right, but that is what I get out of it anyway.

[ProjectPeter]

But was that not Paul's dilemma in Romans 7. Since he was giving explanation to being dead to the law and being alive to God. That would mean to me that he was trying to explain that even though the law still was there, it had nothing to do with his relationship with God. The only thing that had anything to do with his relationship with God was Christ that lived in him. I don't know, maybe I'm not saying it right, but that is what I get out of it anyway.

But Paul wasn't speaking of being alive in Christ in chapter 7. He was speaking of being prisoner to sin. He wanted to do right but couldn't because he needed someone to free him. At the end of the chapter, going into chapter 8, Paul makes it know that this was Christ.

[BCF]

But Paul wasn't speaking of being alive in Christ in chapter 7. He was speaking of being prisoner to sin. He wanted to do right but couldn't because he needed someone to free him. At the end of the chapter, going into chapter 8, Paul makes it know that this was Christ.

Well if Paul was not speaking about being alive in Christ, why would he say in Romans 7:4-6, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

In you explanation of these three verses in your first post which makes sense to me you said yourself that "When he was married to the law then he couldn't deviate from that. But through the crucified body of Jesus Christ we are now legally unattached to the law. You now no longer belong to this law but you belong to Christ. When you were in the flesh (not born again with the Spirit of God indwelling you) sin operated in you and sin taking advantage of the law (he gets into that next) you did nothing but bear fruit that was leading to death. The old way of the law died when we died to the law and were resurrected in the newness of the Spirit... in other words we are born again."

Well it seems to me that the only way that someone could be Born again would be to operate in the Spirit and not out of their flesh. At that point we would be dead to the law and alive in Christ who fulfilled the law and gave us a new one which was Love, as I had written to you before. I don't know, to me the law made a separation from God that started back with Adam, and Jesus closed that separation by giving us the Holy Spirit so that there would not be a separation anymore. Unless we flat refuse to accept Him.

[ProjectPeter]

Well if Paul was not speaking about being alive in Christ, why would he say in Romans 7:4-6, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

In you explanation of these three verses in your first post which makes sense to me you said yourself that "When he was married to the law then he couldn't deviate from that. But through the crucified body of Jesus Christ we are now legally unattached to the law. You now no longer belong to this law but you belong to Christ. When you were in the flesh (not born again with the Spirit of God indwelling you) sin operated in you and sin taking advantage of the law (he gets into that next) you did nothing but bear fruit that was leading to death. The old way of the law died when we died to the law and were resurrected in the newness of the Spirit... in other words we are born again."

Well it seems to me that the only way that someone could be Born again would be to operate in the Spirit and not out of their flesh. At that point we would be dead to the law and alive in Christ who fulfilled the law and gave us a new one which was Love, as I had written to you before. I don't know, to me the law made a separation from God that started back with Adam, and Jesus closed that separation by giving us the Holy Spirit so that there would not be a separation anymore. Unless we flat refuse to accept Him.

And I suppose you read the next section where it says...

Paul now starts going into the first person in this portion of Scripture. This is why many say that Paul is talking about his life "now" as opposed to back when he was under the law because they say he is talking in the first person here therefore.... but not at all. Paul is merely using his past self as the example.

Paul changes his whole way of describing this. He starts out using marriage as an example. That ends at 6. At verse seven he goes to another description using himself. I mean seriously... that is easily seen, right?

[justsurfing]

PP,

Here is how I see things:

My old nature was the spiritual sinful nature. It was "booted" from my spirit when I was saved. Where did I come from? The "I" I am now... as a divine nature being? I was born of the Spirit... a new creation.

Like this... an alien movie. Where there are these human beings... and aliens invade the planet. (This is theological... really it is.... it's the only way I can think to make the solid point.)

Anyway, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". The alien comes to "take over" the body of a human being. Once the alien gets in... the body is just a shell... really, it's the alien in that body now.

I am an alien. (I once had a missionary come to church and do a message like this on "We are aliens". It was great. What kind of church was THAT???? people might ask. Not some "out there" church... Christian Reformed... it's really biblical... and really quite foundational... and relates to Romans 7, especially)

1 Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.



I am like ET,... an "alien". I am not of this world. I am from... Heaven. I, personally, am literally NOT that person who was born in the flesh of another spirit. I am an alien. I am from Heaven. I did not even exist in this earth before I was born into this world by the Spirit of God.

So how does everything you are saying relating to me - as a child of God born from above... who simply is not even of the same being nature as anyone under the law.

I never was under the law. I never will be. That person who was in this body before I, as an alien, was born into this body... ok, she was. I'm not. Never was... and never will be. I came from Heaven.

Can you reason with me adopting this identity... making this point... that I'm from Heaven... and nothing anyone says about the law has any application whatsoever to do with me?

I have nothing to do with the first creation that fell. I am spirit born of God from... the new creation.

Sin may dwell in these members of a body from the first creation that fell... but that's not me. I'm an alien from Heaven. I am the spirit born of God within this mortal body. The body... and the sin related to this body... is not me.

This is an alien invasion, baby!!!

hee hee

The Spirit is birthing more of us... every day!!!!

lol

We are taking over the bodies... of the residents of this planet.

ha ha



Love in Christ,

Laura

[BCF]

And I suppose you read the next section where it says...

Paul now starts going into the first person in this portion of Scripture. This is why many say that Paul is talking about his life "now" as opposed to back when he was under the law because they say he is talking in the first person here therefore.... but not at all. Paul is merely using his past self as the example.

Paul changes his whole way of describing this. He starts out using marriage as an example. That ends at 6. At verse seven he goes to another description using himself. I mean seriously... that is easily seen, right?

No, I agree with what you are saying. It all makes sense to me. I do not think that Paul is talking about anything after verse seven but of himself. Yes he used the description of marriage in the beginning until verse six, but that is where it stops. I am with you there also. All I was saying is that it just seemed to me that what his battle was, was his battle between being dead to the law and Alive to God. That's all. From what he writes and the way that he presents it, and then continues on in the next chapter, which as you said we really should not go to yet, and I agree is very hard to restrain from when we are talking about Romans 7. It just makes the scripture come alive and jump out at you. You know what I mean.

[brakelite]

I think I may see things a little differently or perhaps I am reading you both wrong.
Paul, in his carnal self, began by being bound to the law through an indissoluble union like marriage. This union could only be rectified by his death. And this death, because sin remained in him, was eternal.
There is no way out for any man from this predicament except through Jesus.
Jesus accepts the death that the law requires as the just punishment for our sins.
God, through an act of grace and mercy includes Paul in Jesus' death. God betrothes Paul (they arent married yet, that takes place in Heaven) to Jesus and the law no longer has a hold on him. However, the law, and sin, does not go away. Paul does not immediately become perfect but the practice or habit or lifestyle and dominion of sin is broken.Christ's rightousness is not only imputed to him but imparted also, through sanctification.
Sin remains, but the sanctification process deals with those odd moments when the flesh rears it's ugly head.
The law remains also. BCF says that the law of love replaces the moral law. This I definitly disagree with. The laws of love are the moral law. By keeping one we observe the other. It is through the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that we keep the moral law automatically.

[BCF]

brakelite
quote:
The law remains also. BCF says that the law of love replaces the moral law. This I definitly disagree with. The laws of love are the moral law. By keeping one we observe the other. It is through the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that we keep the moral law automatically.

I don't believe that I said that the Commandment of Love by Jesus replaced the Law. But I did say that "It seems to me that the law could and would and does condemn the flesh and the Spirit of man, but Jesus came and did not do away with the law but fulfilled it, and gave us two new Commandments to do instead which was to Love the Lord thy God with all of our Hearts, Soul and Might, and Love thy neighbor as thyself. He said that on these two Commandments hang all the law."

Jesus tells us that in Matthew 22:37-40, " Thou shalt Love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart, and with all thy Soul, and with all thy Mind. This is the first and great Commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt Love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two Commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

[RogerW]

Here is a link to an excellent article by Jerry Bridges - Modern Reformeation Articles that teaches gospel driven sanctification, and explains this passage in Romans well.

http://www.modernreformation.org/def...var4=ViewTopic

[justsurfing]

Our spirits are perfectly conformed, congruent, to the law of love... and against this law there can be no law.

Our spirits battle our flesh.

We are already "married" to Christ in spiritual union in our spirits.

Yet, we are "betrothed" in the body.

The sinful nature is completely opposed to the Spirit. The Spirit is completely opposed to the flesh.

Jesus Christ will deliver us from this body... because the Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead lives in us (who are born of God).

The flesh has already been crucified with Christ. We are in Jesus Christ in spirit and in truth... and this mortality shall put on immortality... our bodies will be changed.

The successive progression of our salvation has already occurred... and nothing in this world, or below... nothing at all any place or any time... can separate us from the Love of God in Christ.

It is the work of God.

Love in Christ,

Laura

[ProjectPeter]

PP,

Here is how I see things:

My old nature was the spiritual sinful nature. It was "booted" from my spirit when I was saved. Where did I come from? The "I" I am now... as a divine nature being? I was born of the Spirit... a new creation.

Like this... an alien movie. Where there are these human beings... and aliens invade the planet. (This is theological... really it is.... it's the only way I can think to make the solid point.)

Anyway, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". The alien comes to "take over" the body of a human being. Once the alien gets in... the body is just a shell... really, it's the alien in that body now.

I am an alien. (I once had a missionary come to church and do a message like this on "We are aliens". It was great. What kind of church was THAT???? people might ask. Not some "out there" church... Christian Reformed... it's really biblical... and really quite foundational... and relates to Romans 7, especially)

1 Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.



I am like ET,... an "alien". I am not of this world. I am from... Heaven. I, personally, am literally NOT that person who was born in the flesh of another spirit. I am an alien. I am from Heaven. I did not even exist in this earth before I was born into this world by the Spirit of God.

So how does everything you are saying relating to me - as a child of God born from above... who simply is not even of the same being nature as anyone under the law.

I never was under the law. I never will be. That person who was in this body before I, as an alien, was born into this body... ok, she was. I'm not. Never was... and never will be. I came from Heaven.

Can you reason with me adopting this identity... making this point... that I'm from Heaven... and nothing anyone says about the law has any application whatsoever to do with me?

I have nothing to do with the first creation that fell. I am spirit born of God from... the new creation.

Sin may dwell in these members of a body from the first creation that fell... but that's not me. I'm an alien from Heaven. I am the spirit born of God within this mortal body. The body... and the sin related to this body... is not me.

This is an alien invasion, baby!!!

hee hee

The Spirit is birthing more of us... every day!!!!

lol

We are taking over the bodies... of the residents of this planet.

ha ha



Love in Christ,

Laura

So then when you sin (assuming you sin) who's doing the sinning? The Alien or the shell?

[ProjectPeter]

No, I agree with what you are saying. It all makes sense to me. I do not think that Paul is talking about anything after verse seven but of himself. Yes he used the description of marriage in the beginning until verse six, but that is where it stops. I am with you there also. All I was saying is that it just seemed to me that what his battle was, was his battle between being dead to the law and Alive to God. That's all. From what he writes and the way that he presents it, and then continues on in the next chapter, which as you said we really should not go to yet, and I agree is very hard to restrain from when we are talking about Romans 7. It just makes the scripture come alive and jump out at you. You know what I mean.

Well it certainly is a war... no doubt of that. Chapter 8 is where we learn to win the battles... but later!

[ProjectPeter]

I think I may see things a little differently or perhaps I am reading you both wrong.
Paul, in his carnal self, began by being bound to the law through an indissoluble union like marriage. This union could only be rectified by his death. And this death, because sin remained in him, was eternal.
There is no way out for any man from this predicament except through Jesus.
Jesus accepts the death that the law requires as the just punishment for our sins.
God, through an act of grace and mercy includes Paul in Jesus' death. God betrothes Paul (they arent married yet, that takes place in Heaven) to Jesus and the law no longer has a hold on him. However, the law, and sin, does not go away. Paul does not immediately become perfect but the practice or habit or lifestyle and dominion of sin is broken.Christ's rightousness is not only imputed to him but imparted also, through sanctification.
Sin remains, but the sanctification process deals with those odd moments when the flesh rears it's ugly head.
The law remains also. BCF says that the law of love replaces the moral law. This I definitly disagree with. The laws of love are the moral law. By keeping one we observe the other. It is through the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that we keep the moral law automatically.

But what dies according to Paul's analogy? This is where we get into some good stuff!

[brakelite]

But what dies according to Paul's analogy? This is where we get into some good stuff!

Romans 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

[threebigrocks]

But what dies according to Paul's analogy? This is where we get into some good stuff!

Our flesh dies, for the law was given to judge the will of the flesh and not of the Spirit. Had the will of the Spirit been dominant there would be no need for the flesh to be shown it's error for the Spirit would have overcome the flesh. However, the more law that was imposed the more our flesh fell short, yet drew it to the forefront to sin yet again.

The only way to get rid of that which keeps the Spirit from being trampled was to kill it off. And, as sin has no unity with righteousness, it is not until it is dead with the very thing that exposes and sets that sin to action that we can be joined to Christ in the Spirit.

We are shown a better way, to overcome death of our flesh and hold to that which is life. We are dead or alive, and pass from one to the other.