Trinity Doctrine

[Me2007Too]

Since the board rules have changed regarding the Trinity Doctrine, I would like to post the question out there once again.

Please,
Can someone explain to me clearly the Trinity Doctrine? I am a Christian that does not believe this doctrine is true.

God - 1 person.
Jesus - 1 person.
Holy Spirit - 1 person.

3 persons, each person has a separate function. They are one and the same because they are "in agreement" with each other.

1. God - The Father, the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

2. Jesus Christ - The son of God, Gave his life on behalf of mankind on earth so that we can eternal life. King of God's kingdom.

3. Holy Spirit - God's active force. I compare this to electricity. I light bulb would serve no purpose if it does not have electricity to light it up.

[Toolman]

Since the board rules have changed regarding the Trinity Doctrine, I would like to post the question out there once again.

Please,
Can someone explain to me clearly the Trinity Doctrine? I am a Christian that does not believe this doctrine is true.

God - 1 person.
Jesus - 1 person.
Holy Spirit - 1 person.

3 persons, each person has a separate function. They are one and the same because they are "in agreement" with each other.

1. God - The Father, the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

2. Jesus Christ - The son of God, Gave his life on behalf of mankind on earth so that we can eternal life. King of God's kingdom.

3. Holy Spirit - God's active force. I compare this to electricity. I light bulb would serve no purpose if it does not have electricity to light it up.

This is basically the arian controversy, which is what Jehovah witnesses hold to today. If you believe Christ is a created being then you would be perfectly inline with arianism. Do you believe Jesus is a created being?

Once we get that on the table we can continue. Looking forward to it.

[Me2007Too]

This is basically the arian controversy, which is what Jehovah witnesses hold to today. If you believe Christ is a created being then you would be perfectly inline with arianism. Do you believe Jesus is a created being?

Once we get that on the table we can continue. Looking forward to it.

Hi Toolman,
The bible does say that Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 1:15
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So, I say yes to that question since God created everything as i state in my original post.

[calidog]

Please,
Can someone explain to me clearly the Trinity Doctrine? I am a Christian that does not believe this doctrine is true.

God - 1 person.
Jesus - 1 person.
Holy Spirit - 1 person.

3 persons, each person has a separate function. They are one and the same because they are "in agreement" with each other.

1. God - The Father, the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

2. Jesus Christ - The son of God, Gave his life on behalf of mankind on earth so that we can eternal life. King of God's kingdom.

3. Holy Spirit - God's active force. I compare this to electricity. I light bulb would serve no purpose if it does not have electricity to light it up.

There are others here who can explain this better but a comment from me.

The bible is clear that God created all things through Christ. Christ is the creator.

The bible is clear that the Holy Spirit is an individual person.

God is the Father
God is the Son
God is the Holy Spirit

[calidog]

The bible does say that Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creation.

He is "the first born of every creature." This reveals His relationship to the Father and His position in the Trinity. God is the everlasting Father; the Son is the everlasting Son. His position in the Trinity is that of Son.
"Firstborn" indicates His priority before all creation. His headship of all creation does not mean that He was born first.
What does the Scriptures mean by "Firstborn."

Nowhere does Scripture teach that Jesus Christ had His beginning at Bethlehem. We are told in the great prophecy of Mic_5:2 that He would be born in Bethlehem, but that He came forth from everlasting. Isa_9:6 tells us, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given…." The child is born, but the Son is given. He came out of eternity and took upon Himself our humanity.

(with the help of McGee) I'll butt-out, looking forward to what toolman has to offer.

[Toolman]

Hi Toolman,
The bible does say that Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creation.
So, I say yes to that question since God created everything as i state in my original post.

Ok, I just wanted to clarify before we started just to make sure all the "cards" are on the table, so to speak.

The doctrine of the Trinity, which you asked for an explanation of, is a doctrine that is derived from ALL the text of the bible and was agreed upon by the earliest ecumenical counsel of the Church. This means that all the early church leaders were involved in coming to a consensus on what the scripture reveals about the nature of God.

The beliefs of arianism were what prompted these leaders to come together and answer this belief. The belief was determined as not considering all of scripture but only portions and was declared error.

Concerning the doctrine, remember that we are finite beings attempting to understand an infinite being.

There is nothing that we can point to that is the full example/expression of what God is like in His essence, because God is unique. The Trinity is a mystery to an extent. For that matter so is the Hypostatic Union, how can a person be both fully God and fully man (which you also don't believe).. that is impossible logically.

For now, we see thru a glass darkly but one day we will see Him as He sees us. Now we live by glimpses of faith but then face to face. For now we accept by faith what He has revealed in the whole of scripture.


As far as arianism here are some links to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Denial of the deity of Christ has serious implications to the whole of the Christian faith but it is easilly debunked with simple scripture. I'll share that below:

The doctrine of the Trinity does not proclaim that Jesus is the Father but is a seperate person from the Father but of the same essence of the Father.

Notice the Nicene Creed (where we get trinity doctrine):

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father

Here it is clearly presented in Trinity doctrine that God the Father and Jesus Christ are seperate persons, yet are of the same substance or essence.

Christ's deity is upheld as being "begotten, not made". This speaks of Christ's eternal existence, as proclaimed in scripture, that He is Creator not created.

The Trinity doctrine does not state that Christ is the same as the Father. Seperate persons who are of the same essence (deity) and who are Creator not created.

A simple biblical example that proves that Christ is God is as follows:

Defense of Christ's deity
In the gospel of Matthew and Christ is worshipped a 1/2 dozen time (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 15:25, Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17).

Christ never rebukes the person or tells them not to worship Him. We have 2 recordings of both an angel (Revelation 22:8-9) and a man (Acts 10:25-26) being worshipped, who both basically said "Do not do that. Worship God."

Even Christ Himself, quoting the Law, instructed us that we are to worship God only:

Matthew 4:10 - Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

So, if Christ is not God, and is only a created being then why does He allow people to worship Him? If He is not God and allows this then He is a sinner, accepting worship that is God's alone.

I would also encourage a thorough read of the topics under "The Trinity", "Trinity verses list", "Objections to the trinity answered", and "Jesus" below for some in-depth understanding of Trinity and Christological doctrines:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm

[Me2007Too]

Defense of Christ's deity
In the gospel of Matthew and Christ is worshipped a 1/2 dozen time (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 15:25, Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17).

Christ never rebukes the person or tells them not to worship Him. We have 2 recordings of both an angel (Revelation 22:8-9) and a man (Acts 10:25-26) being worshipped, who both basically said "Do not do that. Worship God."

Even Christ Himself, quoting the Law, instructed us that we are to worship God only:

Matthew 4:10 - Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

So, if Christ is not God, and is only a created being then why does He allow people to worship Him? If He is not God and allows this then He is a sinner, accepting worship that is God's alone.

What does the word "worship" mean in these scriptures you quote?

The word worship can mean:
1. To treat somebody or something as a deity.
2. To love somebody deeply.
3. To take part in a religious service.

What makes you so assertive that the word worship here means "worship" to God?

Regarding the Nicene Creed. This is a doctrine formulated by MEN.

Nicene Creed:
A formal statement of Christian beliefs formulated at the first Nicene Council, held in Nicaea in ad 325, subsequently altered and expanded, and still in use in most Christian churches.

How can we be sure that this Council of Nicaea was in fact correct in their belief? The answer to that is based on faith, correct?

What did the apostles say about obeying men?

Acts 5:29 says...
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!

[calidog]

I suppose Thomas knew what worship means.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

(note no rebuke from Jesus)

[Me2007Too]

I suppose Thomas knew what worship means.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

(note no rebuke from Jesus)

Hi calidog,
I don't question the fact that Jesus was considered a god, even a Mighty God as Isaiah 9:6 shows.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Even Satan is considered a "god" in the bible.

2 Corinthians 4:4...
4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I don't see Jesus Christ as being EQUAL to God, the father, the Almighty God in the heavens.

Jesus Christ clearly states this throughout the scriptures. Too many to quote. Even while he is dying he speaks to his father in the heavens.

Matthew 27:46...
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

If Jesus = God why would he pray and speak to himself? It's just too confusing and God is not a God of confusion.
.................................................. ................................
I need to correct something i mentioned in my original post.

I said that the Holy Spirit = 1 person.
The holy spirit cannot be a person since it is a thing. An Active Force is a thing, not a person. From my understanding of the bible, there is no record of the "holy spirit" being a person.

[Naphal]

Hi Toolman,
The bible does say that Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creation.

It does? Why doesn't the verse you posted say that then?

Colossians 1:15
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

[Naphal]

The bible is clear that the Holy Spirit is an individual person.

Actually the bible never refers to the Holy Spirit as a person. Always as a Spirit, and goes further to say the HS is the Spirit of the father so it's his Spirit rather than a separate person than the Father or Son.

There is a Trinity, but not of three persons. The bible doesn't support that traditional definition. However, it is a minor thing to me since the trinity is something difficult to understand anyways. What's important is that we have a Father, a Son and a Holy spirit that is God.

[Brother Mark]

Phil 2:6-11

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV

[Me2007Too]

It does? Why doesn't the verse you posted say that then?

Hi Naphal,

What difference does that make?

What does "firstborn" mean in this verse?

[Me2007Too]

Phil 2:6-11

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV

Hi Brother Mark,
???
See the context of these scriptures you mention. Jesus makes himself nothing, He takes the position of a servant.

Phillipians 2: 6,7...
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

[Debra R]

Hi calidog,
I don't question the fact that Jesus was considered a god, even a Mighty God as Isaiah 9:6 shows.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Even Satan is considered a "god" in the bible.

2 Corinthians 4:4...
4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I don't see Jesus Christ as being EQUAL to God, the father, the Almighty God in the heavens.

Jesus Christ clearly states this throughout the scriptures. Too many to quote. Even while he is dying he speaks to his father in the heavens.

Matthew 27:46...
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

If Jesus = God why would he pray and speak to himself? It's just too confusing and God is not a God of confusion.
.................................................. ................................
I need to correct something i mentioned in my original post.

I said that the Holy Spirit = 1 person.
The holy spirit cannot be a person since it is a thing. An Active Force is a thing, not a person. From my understanding of the bible, there is no record of the "holy spirit" being a person.

Hi Me2007Too,

there are many verses that say Jesus is indeed equal to God, the Father, the Almighty God in the heavens.

There are many verses that refer to the Holy Spirit as "He".

In Colossians it tells us that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation and by Him all things were created.

This in John 17 comes to mind, the prayer of Jesus. Jesus spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

John 17: 1 )Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2) as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3) And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4) I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5) And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Blessings