Trinity Doctrine

[SemperReformanda]

If you see me as a "poor follower of Christ" that is your personal opinion.

I'm okay with that, because I don't follow you, I follow Jesus Christ.

By the way...you should check out what the bible says about judging others.

Matthew 7:1-5...
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

The Bible is very clear that calling someone to repentance in light of the clear teaching of Scripture is not only recommended, but required:

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
(Titus 2:15)

[Naphal]

That was some pretty good information. Still in all Jesus is not the One True God Almighty.

Whenever Almighty God appears it is referring to Christ's Father but Christ is referred to as Mighty God and here certainly is. You did not comment on a majority of the scriptural proof that Jesus is God so I will assume you cannot deny the proof even if you still choose to remain in error.

People make Jesus their God and worship him. Others make Satan and his demons their god and they worship them. Jesus said that we are gods, and most people worship themselves. As for me, I am going to have one God that I worship and that one God is the Father.

I wonder how he will judge you when it comes time for that. Hopefully you will walk away from your false belief and worship both the son and father as the one true God.

[Naphal]

If you see me as a "poor follower of Christ" that is your personal opinion.

I'm okay with that, because I don't follow you, I follow Jesus Christ.

But many claim this and Christ will tell them he never knew them so how could they ever know him without knowing he is God? You follow a human Messiah, only a man and nothing more. I follow Jesus Christ who is God that came in the body of a man to die for my sins. A mere man could not and did not do that. It could only be done by God as a man.

By the way...you should check out what the bible says about judging others.

Those verses are about being a hypocrite. If I denying Christ was God and chastised you for it then the verses would apply to me but as it stands you are badly misusing those verses as you are with the verses you use to deny Christ.

[Me2007Too]

The Bible is very clear that calling someone to repentance in light of the clear teaching of Scripture is not only recommended, but required:

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
(Titus 2:15)

"The Bible is very clear that calling someone to repentance in light of the clear teaching of Scripture is not only recommended, but required:"

True! However...
What clear teaching are you referring to? The Trinity Doctrine??

You might want to read the entire thread.

[SemperReformanda]

"The Bible is very clear that calling someone to repentance in light of the clear teaching of Scripture is not only recommended, but required:"

True! However...
What clear teaching are you referring to? The Trinity Doctrine??

You might want to read the entire thread.

The Bible is clear that Jesus should be worshipped. The Bible is clear that worship should be given to God alone. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find that if both those propositions are true, then Jesus is God. I have posted in this thread previously, and have come to the conclusion that if you continually refuse to acknowledge this simple Biblical truth, then you are in error and need to be corrected.

EDIT: My apologies, I have NOT posted in this thread before, but a similar one. Business and tiredness have confused me. Forgive me.

[Me2007Too]

Jesus is the word of God. God was behind having the wise men come and worship Jesus. All the followers of Jesus worshipped him as God so if you choose not to then you are not really a Christian. You are merely somewhere between Judaism and Christian which makes you neither. You pick and choose what you want to accept from the bible but that makes for a poor follower of Christ.

I think you should look at your post again.

If I was to tell you... Based on what you believe.
You are between a Pagan and a Christian which makes you neither. You pick and choose what you want to accept from the bible but that makes for a poor follower of Christ.

Would you not say i am judging you?

[SemperReformanda]

I think you should look at your post again.

If I was to tell you... Based on what you believe.
You are between a Pagan and a Christian which makes you neither. You pick and choose what you want to accept from the bible but that makes for a poor follower of Christ.

Would you not say i am judging you?

Sorry, I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I want to clarify something that I see prevalent in much of modern Christianity.

There is a huge difference in the Bible between using Biblical judgement and the action of judging.

The Bible speaks of Biblical judgement as something important and necessary. If we were not to use Biblical judgement, we could not discern between sin and good work, between Christian and non-Christian.

The "judging" that the Bible refers to is using your own righteousness as a measuring stick by which you measure up other people. This is plain and straight wrong.

Now, if for instance I say to someone: "you are a sinner because you don't do what I do", then I am falling into the unbiblical trap of judging. However, if I say: "the Bible says you are a sinner/you are incorrect, and this is why", then I am using Biblical judgement.

We need to be careful to distinguish those things. We cannot correct anybody if we use no judgement whatsoever.

[Me2007Too]

The Bible is clear that Jesus should be worshipped. The Bible is clear that worship should be given to God alone. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find that if both those propositions are true, then Jesus is God. I have posted in this thread previously, and have come to the conclusion that if you continually refuse to acknowledge this simple Biblical truth, then you are in error and need to be corrected.

EDIT: My apologies, I have NOT posted in this thread before, but a similar one. Business and tiredness have confused me. Forgive me.

There's a flip side to that coin. What if you were the one in error and need to be corrected? That is a possibility that you are just not acknowledging and will not acknowledge.

That's the purpose for this thread. The Trinity Doctrine is not clear, and many in this thread have acknowledged that. Please...read the entire thread.

BTW... I remember you, you wanted the thread moved to "Christian Answers". You posted in the thread that was deleted a while ago. The rules changed and so i decided to re-post it.
Welcome back to the discussion.

[deepjagga]

Whenever Almighty God appears it is referring to Christ's Father but Christ is referred to as Mighty God and here certainly is. You did not comment on a majority of the scriptural proof that Jesus is God so I will assume you cannot deny the proof even if you still choose to remain in error.

You had no scriptural proof that Jesus is God. You had scriptures of different people choosing to refer to Jesus by a variety of names with Mighty God being one of them. However, Jesus is not God Almighty. If people would only listen to Jesus and believe him this would be so easy to understand. He told us exactly who he was, and exactly what to call him.

I wonder how he will judge you when it comes time for that. Hopefully you will walk away from your false belief and worship both the son and father as the one true God.

Why do you wonder how God will judge me? Why would I worship Jesus as the One true God, when Jesus himself said, "Worship God?"

[SemperReformanda]

You had no scriptural proof that Jesus is God. You had scriptures of different people choosing to refer to Jesus by a variety of names with Mighty God being one of them. However, Jesus is not God Almighty. If people would only listen to Jesus and believe him this would be so easy to understand. He told us exactly who he was, and exactly what to call him.

Why do you wonder how God will judge me? Why would I worship Jesus as the One true God, when Jesus himself said, "Worship God?"

I call Jesus what he called himself:

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
(John 10:25-33)

Me2007Too, I'm in the process of reading the entire thread. I'll get back to you.

However, can you answer me a question: do you think it is blasphemous to ascribe worship to anybody except God the Father?

[bibleguy51]

Holy Spirit - God's active force. I compare this to electricity. I light bulb would serve no purpose if it does not have electricity to light it up.

Well I think others have Jesus covered, but let me talk about the Holy Spirit.

A personality can be defined as having a mind, will, and feelings. Electricity would be an "it" and not having any of these qualities.

Romans 8
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit

Ephesians 4
...do not grieve the Holy Spirit..

So the Holy Spirit has feelings.

Acts 13
The Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

The Holy Spirit has a will and talks and refers to himself as I. Nothing else could display his personhood than that!

Acts 5

3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit. ...You have not lied to men but to God.

Who else but a person can be lied to? Can you lie to electricity?

John 14

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit is described as "He" throughout the New Testament not "it."

The Holy Spirit is a divine personality and is God.

[deepjagga]

I call Jesus what he called himself:

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
(John 10:25-33)

Jesus was not making himself God in those verses. Jesus was letting them know that he bear witness of God's through the work of God that he was doing. Jesus never claimed he was God. They accused him doing so, but he never did such a thing.

However, can you answer me a question: do you think it is blasphemous to ascribe worship to anybody except God the Father?

I think it is a mistake for anyone to take it upon themselves to pick and choose who it is they will worship when in the Bible we have been told who to worship. There is a very important reason for that. Worship of anything else in heaven besides God, or on earth, is not worship of God. Now when it comes to claiming different gods, this is what God had to say about that:

Exodus 20:1-3
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[SemperReformanda]

Jesus was not making himself God in those verses. Jesus was letting them know that he bear witness of God's through the work of God that he was doing. Jesus never claimed he was God. They accused him doing so, but he never did such a thing.

What, in your opinion, would the Bible have to say (verbatim) in order for it to teach that Jesus and the Father are one in the Trinitarian sense of the word?

[Toolman]

That's the purpose for this thread. The Trinity Doctrine is not clear, and many in this thread have acknowledged that. Please...read the entire thread.

The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly presented in scripture and is very clear. I don't know of anyone in this thread besides you and deepjagga who claim otherwise.

While the concept of God being revealed in 3 persons or subsistences is a difficult thing for us to wrap our minds around that does not mean it is not clearly presented in scripture.

The entire thread has clearly shown that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and is to be worshipped as the One true God, Creator of all.

For the record.

[SemperReformanda]

The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly presented in scripture and is very clear. I don't know of anyone in this thread besides you and deepjagga who claim otherwise.

While the concept of God being revealed in 3 persons or subsistences is a difficult thing for us to wrap our minds around that does not mean it is not clearly presented in scripture.

The entire thread has clearly shown that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and is to be worshipped as the One true God, Creator of all.

For the record.

Amen, brother. I've read it all, and what I see is simple: refusal to acknowledge Biblical truth in even the simplest readings of Scripture.