Trinity Doctrine

[Brother Mark]

This is one of the greatest and saddest threads I have read. No one has answered Toolman's post on worship. It is being ignored. Also being ignored are his post on Jehovah and Jesus. What is great is how wonderfully clear the post have been. What is sad is how they are ignored.

Are you guys so certain of your position that you will ignore his post and not even answer them?

We all agree that Jesus is a different person than God. We all agree that Jesus was a man. But he was also God and the worship verses show that. Why will you not address those verses?

It is great to see the sword wielded so well. And sad to see it ignored.

[SemperReformanda]

This is one of the greatest and saddest threads I have read. No one has answered Toolman's post on worship. It is being ignored. Also being ignored are his post on Jehovah and Jesus. What is great is how wonderfully clear the post have been. What is sad is how they are ignored.

Are you guys so certain of your position that you will ignore his post and not even answer them?

We all agree that Jesus is a different person than God. We all agree that Jesus was a man. But he was also God and the worship verses show that. Why will you not address those verses?

It is great to see the sword wielded so well. And sad to see it ignored.

It is indeed a great sadness to see the truths of God's word expounded so clearly, and yet ignored so completely.

I pray that the believers on this board would be convicted of the importance of Biblical doctrine, and the precious and comforting truths contained therein.

[SemperReformanda]

What great comfort there is contained in these questions and answers:

Question 12
Q. Since, according to God's righteous judgment we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how can we escape this punishment and be again received into favour?
A. God demands that His justice be satisfied.[1] Therefore full payment must be made either by ourselves or by another.[2]
[1] Exo_20:5; Exo_23:7; Rom_2:1-11. [2] Isa_53:11; Rom_8:3-4.

Question 13
Q. Can we ourselves make this payment?
A. Certainly not. On the contrary, we daily increase our debt.[1]
[1] Psa_130:3; Mat_6:12; Rom_2:4-5.

Question 14
Q. Can any mere creature pay for us?
A. No. In the first place, God will not punish another creature for the sin which man has committed.[1] Furthermore, no mere creature can sustain the burden of God's eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.[2]
[1] Eze_18:4, Eze_18:20; Heb_2:14-18. [2] Psa_130:3; Nah_1:6.

Question 15
Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer must we seek?
A. One who is a true[1] and righteous[2] man, and yet more powerful than all creatures; that is, one who is at the same time true God.[3]
[1] 1Co_15:21; Heb_2:17. [2] Isa_53:9; 2Co_5:21; Heb_7:26. [3] Isa_7:14; Isa_9:6; Jer_23:6; Joh_1:1; Rom_8:3-4.

Question 16
Q. Why must He be a true and righteous man?
A. He must be a true man because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which has sinned should pay for sin.[1] He must be a righteous man because one who himself is a sinner cannot pay for others.[2]
[1] Rom_5:12, Rom_5:15; 1Co_15:21; Heb_2:14-16. [2] Heb_7:26-27; 1Pe_3:18.

Question 17
Q. Why must He at the same time be true God?
A. He must be true God so that by the power of His divine nature[1] He might bear in His human nature the burden of God's wrath,[2] and might obtain for us and restore to us righteousness and life.[3]
[1] Isa_9:5. [2] Deu_4:24; Nah_1:6; Psa_130:3. [3] Isa_53:5, Isa_53:11; Joh_3:16; 2Co_5:21.

Question 18
Q. But who is that Mediator who at the same time is true God and a true and righteous man?
A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,[1] whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.[2]
[1] Mat_1:21-23; Luk_2:11; 1Ti_2:5; 1Ti_3:16. [2] 1Co_1:30.

[ProjectPeter]

The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly presented in scripture and is very clear. I don't know of anyone in this thread besides you and deepjagga who claim otherwise.

While the concept of God being revealed in 3 persons or subsistences is a difficult thing for us to wrap our minds around that does not mean it is not clearly presented in scripture.

The entire thread has clearly shown that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and is to be worshipped as the One true God, Creator of all.

For the record.

Well laid out I might add... can't get any more clear than this.

[Naphal]

I think you should look at your post again.

If I was to tell you... Based on what you believe.
You are between a Pagan and a Christian which makes you neither. You pick and choose what you want to accept from the bible but that makes for a poor follower of Christ.

Would you not say i am judging you?

Of course but you would be incorrect. I am a Christian because I believe in, upon and that Christ is God.

[Naphal]

You had no scriptural proof that Jesus is God.

I had plenty of it, which you did not even try to argue against. Making a blanket statement that I had none is irresponsible and somewhat lazy.

[Debra R]

This is one of the greatest and saddest threads I have read. No one has answered Toolman's post on worship. It is being ignored. Also being ignored are his post on Jehovah and Jesus. What is great is how wonderfully clear the post have been. What is sad is how they are ignored.

Are you guys so certain of your position that you will ignore his post and not even answer them?

We all agree that Jesus is a different person than God. We all agree that Jesus was a man. But he was also God and the worship verses show that. Why will you not address those verses?

It is great to see the sword wielded so well. And sad to see it ignored.

Hey Brother Mark,
it is one of the greatest and saddest threads I have ever read too .
Too deny that Jesus is God, to deny Him worship. To ignore all the scripture that proves who the Lord Jesus is.

But don't worry, God's word can't be ignored , lots of good seeds have been planted. God's truth cannot be hidden. It shines in the darkness.
And remember Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Blessings

[Naphal]

Hey Brother Mark,
it is one of the greatest and saddest threads I have ever read too .
Too deny that Jesus is God, to deny Him worship. To ignore all the scripture that proves who the Lord Jesus is.

But don't worry, God's word can't be ignored , lots of good seeds have been planted. God's truth cannot be hidden. It shines in the darkness.
And remember Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Blessings

IMO I don't think denial of Christ as God belongs in this forum. I understand that discussion of the Trinity has recently been allowed but I didn't read where denying Christ was acceptable as well. I think it can be more harmful than beneficial.

[deepjagga]

Question & Answer Session between two individuals
(answers in green)

I am often accused of making myself equal with Christ.
When I ask what Christ is, I am told that Jesus Christ is one and the same. If I ask if Jesus, the man, was God, the answer is No, but God manifest in the flesh. Then can flesh and blood be God? No. Then what was that being that had flesh and blood who was crucified eighteen-hundred years ago? Jesus Christ. Is Christ God? Yes. Is God flesh and blood? No. Will you give me some idea of what that being was called Jesus Christ? Still the answer is, God manifest in the flesh. What do you mean by God manifest in the flesh? Why, that God took upon himself flesh and blood. Then what was that something that took upon itself flesh and blood? God. Is God a substance? No. Then can that which is not matter take matter upon itself? You ask too many questions, I am told. Well, if you cannot answer my questions, must I believe what you say without any proof? No, but we have the Bible and that says that Christ is God. Well, suppose it does and I ask you to explain Christ and you give me this answer, God manifest in the flesh. When I ask to have this explained you say, Why it is Christ.

In all this you see, I get as intelligent answer-only an opinion of some person who knows no more than you do about it. Some think that words are all that is necessary, so they quibble about a certain word like this-the name Christ is said to be a Greek word meaning anointed. But what is that, I say. Does anointed throw any more light upon the Christ? Anointed is the name of something and this is what I want to have explained. To call it by this or that name is no explanation of the thing named. To call it Christ or Anointed or Messiah or Prince of Peace is only hopping from one name to another. I want to know what made that man Jesus who lived eighteen-hundred years ago different from other men. His birth I care nothing about nor is it of any consequence to this world why he was called Jesus Christ. If he was different from other men as I have no doubt he was, where was that difference and how was the world benefited by that difference? These are the questions. Now if you or any other man can prove to me that Jesus was not a man of flesh and blood, you make him a liar, for he says that he was flesh and blood; so now we have a man of flesh and blood just like any other man.

The difference between him and other men was called Christ. Now what did that difference consist in? In his life. What had his life to do with healing the sick? Has your life anything to do with healing a palsied limb? No. Then your good life cannot cure disease? No. Did Jesus' life cure? Yes. Then you must not claim to be a good disciple of Jesus, for if you claim to be a good man and we see no proof of your goodness on others, your goodness is of this world and not of Christ. You say he had a power. Now what do you mean by a power? We call steam a power and electricity a power but no one ever associates wisdom with them. Do you mean that Jesus' power was like the above or was it in what he said and did? It was in what he said and did. Well, what did he do? Did he not cure the sick? Yes. Well, how did he do it? Was it his power? Yes. How did he get it? It came from God. Did you not just say that Jesus was God? Yes. Then how could God come from one place when you and I both believe that God fills all space? Well, there is a mystery in the Godhead or Trinity that man cannot find out nor understand. Was not the Bible written for our understanding? Yes, but the mystery cannot be found out, so we have no right to penetrate the ways of God. There is enough in the Bible to learn and make us happy without searching into the hidden mysteries of another world. If the Bible was not for man's benefit, what was it for? If we are to take it for the word of God, who is to explain it? It explains itself. Do you understand it? In a measure. What do I understand by your answer? Can you give me any more light on the subject than what you have? No. Then I am as ignorant as I was when I began. Give me your opinion of Jesus Christ. Well, if you will listen, I will tell you what I know of Christ and what I believe of the man, Jesus.

I guess God just keep on laughing at us.

[Toolman]

Question & Answer Session between two individuals
(answers in green)

I am often accused of making myself equal with Christ. ...

I guess God just keep on laughing at us.

Usually when quoting someone else's work it is appropriate to provide their name or a link to where the information is from.

This quote comes from here:
http://www.phineasquimby.com/christ_explained.html

The quote is from Phineas Quimby and if one reads about him here I believe it quite clear that the types of thoughts being expressed are fairly far outside the realm of evangelical and protestant Christianity and very much in the realm of "New Thought"*, "Christian Science" and other metaphysical/gnostic type thought.

* - "New Thought" describes a religiophilosophical movement that developed in the United States during the late 19th century, originating with the metaphysical healing practices of Phineas Parkhurst Quimby and the “mental science” of Warren Felt Evans, a Swedenborgian minister.[1] Followers of New Thought also find inspiration in the Transcendentalist philosophy, as it was developed by Ralph Waldo Emerson and other 19th-century American thinkers. The chief tenets of New Thought are that that God is omnipotent and omnipresent, spirit is the ultimate reality, true human selfhood is divine, divinely attuned thought is a positive force for good, disease is mental in origin, and right thinking has a healing effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought

[Theophilus]

IMO I don't think denial of Christ as God belongs in this forum. I understand that discussion of the Trinity has recently been allowed but I didn't read where denying Christ was acceptable as well. I think it can be more harmful than beneficial.

Believe me, Naphal...the board administration is watching this. I would remind you that this (discussion that would attempt to refute Trinitarian doctrine) is a trial, and the option is always open to return to past practice if seems good to do so.

What happens when you open the board up for the discussion of the Trinity is that other notions start coming out of the woodwork...and whether or not Jesus is God is one of them.

If possible, I'd separate Trinitarian discussion and the Jesus is/is not God topic into two different threads...but I'm not sure that's possible. If someone is going to deny the Trinity, it by default (IMHO) automatically denigrates Jesus to something less than God. So, I think this thread will have to run it's course as it is. Better deal with both topics here, than start a new thread that will only get into Trinitarian side-issues anyway.

You may be thinking, "How can such discussion about the Trinity and Jesus' deity be benefical?" Well, it causes everyone participating to start thinking...and hopefully, to start praying and searching the Scripture. If we are to defend the faith, we must be well versed in the Scripture...and our prayers should be a petition for Holy Spirit led inspiration and direction in expressing the truth of the Scripture.

If we cannot speak against what we hold as untruth, we need to dig deeper, pray harder, and search the Scripture more diligently until we can.

Opening up the board for discussions of the Trinity...and of Jesus' deity and position in the Trinity (and His nature) is a call to refine and hone our belief. May the Holy Spirit convice all that read this thread of the Truth...and may He guide our words when defending the faith in the "real world," as well.

I hope this sets your mind at ease somewhat.

[Me2007Too]

This is one of the greatest and saddest threads I have read. No one has answered Toolman's post on worship. It is being ignored. Also being ignored are his post on Jehovah and Jesus. What is great is how wonderfully clear the post have been. What is sad is how they are ignored.

Are you guys so certain of your position that you will ignore his post and not even answer them?

We all agree that Jesus is a different person than God. We all agree that Jesus was a man. But he was also God and the worship verses show that. Why will you not address those verses?

It is great to see the sword wielded so well. And sad to see it ignored.

Toolman's questions have not been ignored. They were answered. The scriptures speak for themselves. I posted over 100 scriptures demonstrating that Jesus never claims to be God. This answers the question Is Jesus God?
Since Jesus Christ is not God he is not to be worshipped as the almighty God, Jehovah.

Just to add to this. Even his name demonstrates that Jesus is not God.
Jesus means "salvation is with Jehovah"
Joshua means "salvation is with Jehovah"
Does this mean if we praise the name of Joshua, we are praising the almighty Jehovah? No.

There are too many inconsistincies in the Trinity Doctrine and this makes it unclear. It cannot be supported scripturally unless scriptures are "twisted" to make it valid and clear.

deepjagga,
Yes, God must be laughing at us. But, at the same time, He knows us better than we know ourselves, and Jesus (the perfect example for us to follow) teaches us that blessed are those who are conscious of their spiritual need.

[deepjagga]

Believe me, Naphal...the board administration is watching this. I would remind you that this (discussion that would attempt to refute Trinitarian doctrine) is a trial, and the option is always open to return to past practice if seems good to do so.

What happens when you open the board up for the discussion of the Trinity is that other notions start coming out of the woodwork...and whether or not Jesus is God is one of them.

If possible, I'd separate Trinitarian discussion and the Jesus is/is not God topic into two different threads...but I'm not sure that's possible. If someone is going to deny the Trinity, it by default (IMHO) automatically denigrates Jesus to something less than God. So, I think this thread will have to run it's course as it is. Better deal with both topics here, than start a new thread that will only get into Trinitarian side-issues anyway.

You may be thinking, "How can such discussion about the Trinity and Jesus' deity be benefical?" Well, it causes everyone participating to start thinking...and hopefully, to start praying and searching the Scripture. If we are to defend the faith, we must be well versed in the Scripture...and our prayers should be a petition for Holy Spirit led inspiration and direction in expressing the truth of the Scripture.

If we cannot speak against what we hold as untruth, we need to dig deeper, pray harder, and search the Scripture more diligently until we can.

Opening up the board for discussions of the Trinity...and of Jesus' deity and position in the Trinity (and His nature) is a call to refine and hone our belief. May the Holy Spirit convice all that read this thread of the Truth...and may He guide our words when defending the faith in the "real world," as well.

I hope this sets your mind at ease somewhat.

Well that certainly makes a lot of sense. A big part of the problem is that people keep trying to explain the concept of Jesus being the manifestation of God in the flesh by going through the trinity. If they did it by going through the Bible only, a few...just a few would be able to get their point across.

It is no secret that the trinity doctrine belief is much different than that of the Holy Bible in terms the three gods it creates and, and the two that are associated with the Godhead in the Bible.

[Brother Mark]

Toolman's questions have not been ignored. They were answered. The scriptures speak for themselves. I posted over 100 scriptures demonstrating that Jesus never claims to be God. This answers the question Is Jesus God?
Since Jesus Christ is not God he is not to be worshipped as the almighty God, Jehovah.

Just to add to this. Even his name demonstrates that Jesus is not God.
Jesus means "salvation is with Jehovah"
Joshua means "salvation is with Jehovah"
Does this mean if we praise the name of Joshua, we are praising the almighty Jehovah? No.

There are too many inconsistincies in the Trinity Doctrine and this makes it unclear. It cannot be supported scripturally unless scriptures are "twisted" to make it valid and clear.

deepjagga,
Yes, God must be laughing at us. But, at the same time, He knows us better than we know ourselves, and Jesus (the perfect example for us to follow) teaches us that blessed are those who are conscious of their spiritual need.

Actually, you posted verses but did not discuss Toolman's response. The verses you posted show Jesus to be man and a different person from the Father. No argument from us.

How about dealing with Toolman's treatise on worship? Please address his worship verses and his arguments. He made a very clear case that Jesus never rejected worship and used scriptural definitions and even went back to the Greek. Yet, after that, all I saw was a list of verses posted. How about doing a sentence by sentence break down of his post?

[Toolman]

Toolman's questions have not been ignored. They were answered. The scriptures speak for themselves. I posted over 100 scriptures demonstrating that Jesus never claims to be God. This answers the question Is Jesus God?
Since Jesus Christ is not God he is not to be worshipped as the almighty God, Jehovah.

As I stated before, this is a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity that is presented in scripture.

The 100 scriptures you posted show that Christ does not claim to be the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity completely agrees with this scriptural truth.

What you are trying to twist scripture to say is that Jesus is not God. This is where you error and what you have not addressed is the multitude of scriptures that present that very fact from scripture and which the doctrine of the Trinity affirms instead of rejects.

So, no, posting a bunch of scriptures regarding the seperation of the Father and the Son's personhood/subsistence does not challenge the doctrine of the Trinity but affirms it.

Just to add to this. Even his name demonstrates that Jesus is not God.
Jesus means "salvation is with Jehovah"
Joshua means "salvation is with Jehovah"
Does this mean if we praise the name of Joshua, we are praising the almighty Jehovah? No.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=139

There are too many inconsistincies in the Trinity Doctrine and this makes it unclear. It cannot be supported scripturally unless scriptures are "twisted" to make it valid and clear.

The inconsistincies are in the arian doctrine, which denies Christ's deity and the scripture that supports it, and this is why it has always been considered error within the Christian Churches.