Ok, I understand where you are coming from, however, what would be the purpose for me to address these scriptures?Originally Posted by Toolman
Will you all change your mind about "The Trinity Doctrine"?
The answer is No.
You will not acknowledge that you just may be incorrect in what you believe.
Like you said earlier only myself and deepjagga are the only ones refuting this belief. Everyone else in this forum agrees with you.
As righteous as Christ.
If that be the case, then what was the purpose of the whole thread?You knew this most likely to be true before you posted the first post. But now it is an excuse not to answer the worship verses?
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
Preparing
What are the consequences to not addressing the truth of scripture?
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
So let it be written, so let it be done.If that be the case, then what was the purpose of the whole thread?
I said i will not continue the "tennis match" and I will firmly hold to that statement, not because i don't want to answer the "worship verses" question, but because it will mean nothing...imho the answer to the question has already been addressed.
Read between the lines.
As righteous as Christ.
I did read between the lines. And what I am reading is "cop out".So let it be written, so let it be done.
I said i will not continue the "tennis match" and I will firmly hold to that statement, not because i don't want to answer the "worship verses" question, but because it will mean nothing...imho the answer to the question has already been given.
Read between the lines.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
St. Tidworthy the Suave
Perhaps, although it is difficult to separate the question of Jesus' deity in relationship to the Trinity, we might consider starting a separate topic thread on the aforementioned worship verses?
Just a thought...
θεοφιλε
Ragamuffin
I personally don't have a problem with you not addressing the scriptures. The scriptures speak for themselves and Christ is to be worshipped and therefore His deity is proclaimed in scripture.
What I took issue with is that you said you had addressed those verses, when in fact you had not. Now that you understand, recognize and admit that we will leave it at that.
I will readily admit that I can be incorrect on a multitude of things. Regarding doctrine I have already spoken of what is essential biblical doctrine for one to be considered a Christian.
I regard doctrine as a set of steps. There are some doctrines (essential) which are on the top step. These are things that I will not renounce and would go to the gallows/stake/gas chamber/etc. for (by God's empowerment) before denying.
These doctrines, as I said, are Christ's deity, that He is God and Creator of all, Salvation thru Him alone, There is 1 God. These things I cannot deny for scripture is clear on them and God's nature and Christ's mission ARE the tale of the scripture.
Other doctrines fall on steps that are lower. Some on the second step I firmly believe but I would not part fellowship with others who may hold differently. The third step may contain doctrines that I hold to but would readily admit I could be wrong on.
So, considering:
1) Christ's deity is on that "top step" and there has never been a valid argument, from scripture, that can topple Christ's deity when considering the whole of scripture (Scripture)
2) The early Church father's belief in this area (History)
3) My own experience at knowing Him intimately (Experience)
There is absolutely nothing that causes me a second of pause or hesitation in proclaiming that Christ is God in the flesh, God with us, Emanuel.
My faith is in the God of the universe, Creator of all, who, for me, took on flesh to die for my sins and give me life eternal. There is none other!
Regardless, you started the thread with a request... "Can someone explain to me clearly the Trinity Doctrine".
Was your purpose to really have someone explain it, scripturally, or was your purpose all along to refute the belief?
The doctrine has been explained, it has been shown where it is clearly presented in scripture, it has been shown how it has historically stood.
That is what was asked for and that is what was given.
WDJD - what DID Jesus do
He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin
Toolman
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Scripture lets us know that Jesus died. If Jesus died he cannot be God. God is immoratal-God cannot die.
If Jesus is God, why is it that after he inherits the kingdom and defeats the wicked one, why does Jesus give the kingdom back to his Father...if he is God? It is apparent that throughout eternity that Jesus is subservient to God. (I Corinth. 15:24)
People cannot side with the truth of God's Word because it would be mean they would have to side against their churches, pastors, friends, family, etc... who have not taught them the whole truth.
Toolman:
Yes,
The Trinity Doctrine was clearly explained and that is what I asked for, to understand the doctrine based on scripture.
After all the "clear explanation" of the doctrine, it gives me the impression that it is "man-made" and in fact not scriptural, but a "twist" to the scriptures.
Therefore, it gives me no other choice but to refute it. Because it is not based on THE TRUTH within the scriptures.
Ragamuffin
As I have stated quite a few times, the doctrine of the Trinity affirms and does not deny any of the facts above.
Jesus is FULLY man (He was tempted, He died). Trinity doctrine supports this (because it is scriptural).
Jesus, Son of God, is submitted to the Father. Trinity doctrine supports this (because it is scriptural).
What Trinity doctrine also affirms, which you deny, is that Jesus is God, Emanuel, Creator of all. Trinity doctrine supports this (because it is scriptural).
I'll say this as many times as is needed
WDJD - what DID Jesus do
He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin
Toolman
Ragamuffin
You, of course, are welcome to do that. I never suspected that you were really wanting the doctrine explained but were truly intending to "refute" it from the beginning.
My posts were mostly for those who are following along and those who will follow later, to be able to see which doctrine was truly "refuted" in this thread and determine on their own what scripture teaches about Jesus Christ and who He is.
You make a claim but you present no logical, scriptural reason for the claim. It is simply your "impression" (your feelings) that it is unscriptural yet you cannot address (nor refute) the scriptures given which clearly speak of Christ's deity.
I leave it to others to weigh and measure the positions put forth in the thread. I have confidence in God's word to accomplish all that He has sent it forth to do.
That said, I will reiterate that I hold no ill will, animosity, anger, etc. towards you or anyone in this thread personally. I know in internet discussions that is not always clear but I do want to make that abundantly clear, if it has not been so far
WDJD - what DID Jesus do
He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin
Toolman
I Tim. 1:15
I think Billy Graham summed it up best when he wrote
______________________________________________
The Bible shows very clearly that there is only one God, and yet that there are three personal distinctions in His complex nature, traditionally referred to as "three Persons in the Godhead"—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each is distinct from the others but never acts independently. They are one in nature and purpose. This mystery is called the doctrine of the Trinity, though that term is not used in the Bible. The teaching, however, is present in seed form in the Old Testament and is revealed explicitly in the New Testament. Note passages such as Matthew 28:19; John 10:30, 14:26; 2 Corinthians 13:14.
Our finite minds cannot understand or explain this mystery of God, which is nevertheless a fact. We must accept the truths found in the Word of God by faith even though we ourselves cannot comprehend them fully; read Hebrews 11:1,3,6 and 1 Corinthians 2:5-10;14; 13:12. It is really not surprising that the infinite God should be complex in His nature beyond the ability of finite humans to comprehend! This doctrine is absolutely essential to New Testament Christianity. Theologians have pointed out that if it were not true, the Bible would be unreliable, Christ would not be divine, and His death on the cross would not atone for our sins, being merely the death of a martyr.
__________________________________________________ __________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
guest
**
Are you saying that God died?What Trinity doctrine also affirms, which you deny, is that Jesus is God, Emanuel, Creator of all. Trinity doctrine supports this (because it is scriptural).
I'll say this as many times as is needed
Are you saying that this Jesus whom you claim to be God, does
not know when he is coming back? Matthew 24:36
The one true God's understanding is infinte, Jesus had to grow in wisdom.
The One true God cannot be tempted by evil, yet Jesus was tempted
and Jesus was tempted by evil to bow down to Satan and worhsip him.
The trinity fails in so many ways in trying to turn Jesus into God. Jesus
is the Son of God. Jesus cannot be both mortal and immortal.
In Mark 4:38 Jesus is asleep on the boat, when God never
sleeps nor slumbers. Psalm 121:4
It is so unwise for people to try to turn Jesus into their God or into a God when Jesus himself said, touch me not I have not ascened to my Father, but go to my bretheren and tell them that I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God. Jesus is saying to us, the Father is my God and your God, so don't you even think about trying to turn me into your God.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
"Christ is all" Col 3:11
Your view is without excuse Me2007Too.
1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. "
Your Jesus is a creature, not the Creator.
Your Jesus is not apart of the eternal Godhead.
You view has changed the glory of God into the image of a corruptible man.
Your Jesus is a creature, not the Creator who is blessed for ever Amen.
Your Jesus isn't Eternal.
Your Jesus isn't Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient.
Your Jesus isn't the Saviour.
Your Jesus isn't the Redeemer of men.
Your Jesus isn't the forgiver of sins.
Your Jesus isn't the spotless, sinless lamb.
Your Jesus isn't the Great I AM.
The Biblical Jesus is Creator. Jn 1:1
The Biblical Jesus is apart of the eternal Godhead. Col 2:9
The Biblical Jesus never changes the glory of God to bein a corruptible man. Jn 1:14
The Biblical Jesus is not a creature, but is the Creator forever blessed. Col 1:16
The Biblical Jesus is Eternal.Jn 1:1
The Biblical Jesus is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient.Mt 28:18, 28:20, Mt 18:20
The Biblical Jesus is the Saviour. Lk 2:11
The Biblical Jesus is the Redeemer of men. Gal 3:13
The Biblical Jesus is the forgiver of sins. Mk 2:5
The Biblical Jesus is the spotless, sinless lamb. Heb 9:14
The Biblical Jesus is the Great I AM. Jn 8:24
Your view is without excuse, and without a Saviour or Redeemer, according to the Scriptures.
Repent and turn to the true Jesus of the Bible, "the Great I AM".
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I think it is a great thread. The same argument thats been around for 1900 years. I think there are good arguments for both sides. I cant help but see similarities with some on this board who "have it all figured out" and the scribes of Jesus's time who had it all figured out and killed him. If the two witness of revelation appeared today and said...Umm excuse me ,Jesus was Gods son but wasn't God....and you know that Paul guy was a false prophet...and about that Sabbath day,you got that wrong too-would you except their testimony? I think the answer would be No. Hard headed then, hardheaded now.I am not wise nor can I comprehend God and his creation. I have NOT been given any special revelation by the Holy Spirit. I do believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.
WARNING - the author of these comments is frequently wrong and should be ignored.
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