Trinity Doctrine

[kejonn]

In Isaiah, the LORD (YHWH) states that He is....

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD(YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD(YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Again the LORD (YHWH) states that He is....

Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."



In Revelation Jesus states that He is....

Revelation 1:17 "And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"




Now According to Isaiah, God Alone (the LORD YHWH), is the first and the last, the redeemer, and beside Him (the First and the Last) there is no God.

Nope. The verses in Isaiah say there is no other God, not that that "first" and "last are words that apply only to God. If I was an only child, would I not be the first and last child of my parents? So we need to determine what "first" and "last" mean in context.

Is 44:6, contextually, says that YHWH is the only God, therefore only He can be the "first" and "last" God.

Rev. 1:17, contextually, says that Yeshua is the "first" and "last" man to ever have to die for the sins of mankind. That is, he was dead, and now he lives forevermore.

Jesus in Revelation, is either a liar, or Jesus is the LORD YHWH, the redeemer, the FIRST AND THE LAST.

Not that simple. He is not a liar, but you do have contextual issues. Without proper context, the Bible can say almost anything you want it to.

[kejonn]

Take note that one must believe what the father says about the son. The father says the son is God.


Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Paul teaches that the Father referred to the Son as God. Paul was divinely taught by God so there is no way Paul is wrong or adding to the old testament:

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Thanks for at least listing the OT verses. Since Psalm 45 speaks of an earthly king, what does that say of Yeshua? If an earthly king can be called God, then what makes Yeshua so much more so "God"? Shall we conclude that the OT king is part of the Godhead as well? The JPS translates this verse as

Psa 45:6 (45:7) Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

What's odd about these verses is that if Yeshua is God and the Father is God, who is one singular being, how can God have a God (Ps 45:7)? Another trinity faltering.

Someone who is identified as God is speaking to someone else and calling them God. We know this is concerning Jesus Christ so God, Jesus's God, is calling Jesus "O God" because Jesus is also God. How could Jesus as God also serve a God? Because Jesus's God is God the Father. Jesus refers to his God, which is also our God, many times in scripture. This does not mean Jesus is not God, nor does it mean Jesus is a second God. God is not one single person, but two persons who are one God. This is no different than two people who are married being considered as one.

I'll let you reread what you wrote and ask yourself if you made any sense to the seeking soul. Maybe you made sense to a trinitarian, but to a new Christian, you might have just told them why many people are turning to Islam instead of something like this.

[kejonn]

In Deuteronomy, we find that the LORD (YHWH) alone, is "the Lord of Lords".

Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD (YHWH) your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward"

In Psalms 136, we find that the LORD (YHWH) alone, is "the Lord of Lords").

Psalms 136:1 "O give thanks unto the LORD (YHWH); for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.


In Timothy Paul states that Jesus is "the Lord of Lords"...

I Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords"

In Revelation John twices states that Jesus is "the Lord of Lords"...

Revelation 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Revelation 19:16 "And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. "




Now According to Deuteronomy and Psalms, God Alone (the LORD YHWH), is "the LORD of LORDS".

Jesus in I Timothy and Revelation, is either a liar, or Jesus is the LORD YHWH, the LORD OF LORDS.

Only problem you have with this whole post is the word "alone". No where in any thing you have quoted do we see that only God alone is called "Lord of lords". Both are called that, but it is never, ever said that this title belongs exclusively to God.

One interesting side note: is Yeshua ever called "God of gods"? No? I think the reason we don't see this is quite obvious.

[kejonn]

There is only 1 God and 1 Creator.

If you have multiple deities then your religion is polytheistic (more than 1 deity) and you would have tritheism.

There is 1 God who is revealed in 3 "persons" or subsistences.

Just because you can't figure out with your human brain how God can be 1 who is revealed in 3 persons does not negate the truth of what scripture clearly presents.

"Clearly"? Not an appropriate word. It "clearly" took almost 300 years for the trinity to become a doctrine, so it was not as "clearly" written as you suppose.

The trinity is just a weak attempt at turning a polytheistic concept into a monotheistic ideal. No one outside of mainstream Christianity accepts the validity of this claim, and it is one of the largest reasons that Jews continue to deny Christ (Deut 13). Satan loves that too.

[kejonn]

Their is only one deity. God alone is deity.

God, the LORD YHWH, alone is the saviour.

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I am the LORD(YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 45:21 "who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD(YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
If Jesus isn't the LORD YHWH, then Jesus isn't the saviour of anyone.

God is the source, Yeshua is the means. Therefore, ultimately, salvation still derives from God Almighty. No issue here and scripturally valid.

[kejonn]

What is "essential" doctrine in Christianity.

There is "essential" doctrine that one must believe to be considered a Christian. There is other "non-essential" doctrine upon which good Christian brothers and sisters can disagree and yet still have fellowship as believers in and followers of Christ.

Essential Doctrine

The Christian Church (Protestant, evangelical, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anti-Nicene and Nicene fathers) has historically believed in the following doctrines as being essential to be considered a Christian:

1) There is 1 God
2) God is revealed in 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
3) Christ's deity (He is eternal God and not created)
4) Christ's virgin birth
5) Christ's death and resurrection
6) Salvation thru Jesus Christ alone
7) Christ's coming judgement

These are the essential doctrines that one must adhere to, that are clearly presented in scripture as belief in Christ. To deny them is to remove one's self from Christian doctrine and to lower the person of Jesus Christ.

These doctrines, derived from scripture, are often best exemplified in the 2 oldest creeds of the Christian Church:

The apostle's creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic (universal) Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

Conclusion

While we, as evangelicals and protestants, believe in sola scriptura (the bible is the final authority on all matters of faith) we also recognize that these 2 early creeds are derived from scripture and is what the early Church believed to be essential doctrine of Christian believers. Early Church fathers, some of whom had been directly discipled by the apostles, believed these doctrines essential for one to be a follower of the true, biblical Jesus Christ.

Denial of these doctrines, concerning the very nature of Jesus Christ and His mission, is a very serious thing to be aware of.

And yet the doctrines of men were not taught by Yeshua, Paul, or any other NT writer. It is truly sad how many people were mislead by these men, even by the Son of God himself. Only those who came later in time had the truth of it, eh?

You are basically saying that 1st century Christians who knew nothing of a triune God were lost. You add to the words of the Savior and propose that salvation is found in these later doctrines rather than the simple message of the New Testament. Bold indeed.

Non-Essential Doctrine

There are other areas that Christian people can disagree on and yet still remain in fellowship as believers in and followers of Christ. There are too many areas to mention them all but a short list might be:

1) Eschatology (end times/prophecy)
2) Eternal security (OSAS/NOSAS)
3) The nature of Hell/Judgement (physical, mental, spiritual)
4) Lord's supper (cosubstantiation, memorial only)
5) Baptism (emersion, sprinkle, infant, believer)

So on and so forth. Christians can disagree about the above and still be faithful followers of Jesus. But denial of essential doctrine is a different matter all together.

And yet what you list initially is NOT essential doctrine according to Yeshua, Paul, and others. Do you propose that their messages were incomplete? I would like to see you say this to the Son of God when you see him. You will be too busy bowing at his feet though, so I may not get the chance.

[Debra R]

Keep in mind when it says "God is Spirit" that it DOESNT say "God is only Spirit"

People assume that constantly. God is Spirit but God isn't only Spirit. God the Father isn't Spirit but God the Fathers Spirit is a Spirit and is a Holy spirit.

Of course, though for the moment that was all I was thinking on was "God is Spirit". I do know that Jesus is God, so God is not only Spirit . Jesus came in the likeness of man..... Which this scripture comes to mind...


Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, ........

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
" Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Nice talking with you Naphal. Have a good night.

[Debra R]

Take note that one must believe what the father says about the son. The father says the son is God.


Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Paul teaches that the Father referred to the Son as God. Paul was divinely taught by God so there is no way Paul is wrong or adding to the old testament:

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Someone who is identified as God is speaking to someone else and calling them God. We know this is concerning Jesus Christ so God, Jesus's God, is calling Jesus "O God" because Jesus is also God. How could Jesus as God also serve a God? Because Jesus's God is God the Father. Jesus refers to his God, which is also our God, many times in scripture. This does not mean Jesus is not God, nor does it mean Jesus is a second God. God is not one single person, but two persons who are one God. This is no different than two people who are married being considered as one.

Excellent Scripture.

[kejonn]

Personally I don't believe someone can be a Christian if they don't accept Jesus as being God. There are minimums one must accept to be a Christian and Jesus being God is one of them.

What you believe is not what is necessary. Scripture reveals the truth, and no where does scripture state that Yeshua must be God for us to be a Christian.

[Debra R]

Were that it were so simple. But all the writer of GoJ is doing here is telling why the Jews sought to kill him. So are you saying that you agree with the spiritually blind Jews at this point? They believed that Yeshua was making himself equal with God, and that is why they wanted to kill him. But you provided his answer: he stated that he indeed was not equal with the Father as he could do nothing of himself. Does that sound like God to you? Since when has God been limited?


See above. You are agreeing with the spiritually blind Jews again at this point. Its amazing how many people miss this point! They wanted to say he was something he was not, and you do the same, though you worship him for it.

The form of God? Here ya go:

Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Yeshua was in the form of God as man, just as we are all made in His image. But he then took on something lower: that of a slave, a bond-servant, one who served other men. We can see that in the way he served others. We can see that as he washed the disciples' feet.


Yes, but God himself called for His own Son's worship. To honor the Son is to honor the One who sent him. So serving the Son is serving the Father.


How can the first Adam be a man, but then the last Adam be God? They are men. Why would the sacrifice of the only begotten Son not be sufficient? Why would the sacrifice of the only man to overcome sin not be enough? How can the death of God -- who cannot die because He is immortal -- be a sacrifice? How can Yeshua be the firstborn from the dead if he could not truly die? How can we ever hope to be like him if he is God, since we cannot be God? But if he is man, we can truly strive to be like him.


None of the above proves that the HS is the 3rd "person" of the trinity.

So you are saying I'm like the spiritually blind Jews. That's funny because I think that you are agreeing with the spiritually blind Jews.

Have a good night.

[kejonn]

If many christians could have their way today, they would actually toss God from the seat of His throne and place Jesus there instead. That is how much they want Jesus to be God.

If Jesus Christ had commanded the saints to worship him as if he was God, it would be the equivalent of the demons who worship Satan as if he is God, another reason...Jesus never requested such worship from us.

Jesus said worship God and he was never double-minded enough to change those words.

DJ,

That is my biggest contention with the trinity: it blurs the lines on who God truly is, and who we pray to and worship. Satan wants nothing more than to take away from the one true God. If he can do this by putting YHWH in the background and putting Yehsua in the forefront, so be it. Here is what Yeshua said:

Mat 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'

Yeshua said to pray to the Father and that the true worshipers would worship the Father. He also said his God is our God. What more can I say personally?

[kejonn]

So you are saying I'm like the spiritually blind Jews. That's funny because I think that you are agreeing with the spiritually blind Jews.

Have a good night.

Hi Debra,

Yes, in that you equate Yeshua with God. Can you show me where I agree with them? I believe he is the Messiah, they did not. I believe he is the Son of God, they did not. Where do i agree with them?

Thanks, and good night back at ya .

[Naphal]

Of course, though for the moment that was all I was thinking on was "God is Spirit". I do know that Jesus is God, so God is not only Spirit . Jesus came in the likeness of man..... Which this scripture comes to mind...


Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, ........

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
" Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Nice talking with you Naphal. Have a good night.

Have a good night and maybe we'll talk more on this tomorrow.

[ChristopherE]

DJ,

That is my biggest contention with the trinity: it blurs the lines on who God truly is, and who we pray to and worship. Satan wants nothing more than to take away from the one true God. If he can do this by putting YHWH in the background and putting Yehsua in the forefront, so be it. Here is what Yeshua said:

Yeshua said to pray to the Father and that the true worshipers would worship the Father. He also said his God is our God. What more can I say personally?

and yet Isaiah 9:6 says Jesus (the Son - the child born) will be called "the Everlasting Father", "the mighty God"

people simply try too hard to divide up the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit into separate entities to fit their tidy little models, including the trinity and whatever you're subscribing to.

[ChristopherE]

I'll answer some of this if I may:
Quote:petepet
If you turn to Matthew 28.19 you obtain the same idea. Men were to be baptised in the ONE NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And what was that one Name? It was Yahweh (Jehovah). In other words Jesus shared the Name of Yahweh because He was God.

And yet we never see this repeated. Strange that the Apostles disobeyed Yeshua. They merely baptized in the name of Yeshua. "In the name of" was not an indication that they we all the same, but the authority by which men were to baptize. God is the source of salvation, the Son is the instrument of salvation, and the Holy Spirit abides within us upon salvation. Simple as that.

I think you made petepet's ultimate point here. They did NOT disobey Jesus telling them to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". They did indeed baptize in that name = JESUS(Yeshua). If they were supposed to baptize in multiple names, they would have, but it was one name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. They had the correct revelation of one name because, well, aside from Jesus not saying "names" plural, they knew the scriptures starting with Is 9:6.
If that doesn't make sense to you then they did indeed disobey by not baptizing how Jesus said, but in his name alone instead. I submit that's not the case.

Interesting. Can you back this scripturally? Was he "restored" completely? Hebrews says he was made higher than angels, but it does not say he was made equal with the Father. If that had been the case, you would have something. But "greater than angels" does not have to be "equal with God". It can also mean "less than God but greater than angels".

Yes he was "restored completely"

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The greek word translated "Godhead" simply means "the state of being God" if that's clears it up for you. The full state of being God exists in Christ Jesus now that He was risen. He was restored to His former state of equality with God that we see in Phl before he was begotten.

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jesus was glorified above all - it doesn't say He was glorified above all except God, but above every name. His name was glorified above EVERY name.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

You might want to think that only means above earthly names but:

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Now keep in mind that this doesn't mean Jesus's name is above the Father's name because of what we already covered. Jesus is also the Father's name. So however high Jesus is glorified, God is also glorified. Jesus said:

Jhn 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.

What name would the Father glorify? Jesus, which we just saw. Yet Jesus said THY name. This is all still tying into Is 9:6 so nicely.

Strange, but you never see where the Father must act dependent of the Son. So your assertion is only partially correct. The Son and HS depend on God, but never vice versa. So where do we see real "equality" in this?

huh? John 1. Without Jesus -God's word- nothing would have been made, but everything was made with and by JESUS. The very creation was dependant upon Jesus.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Yet, the Father had to give these things. They were not Yeshua's to take on his own. Can you limit God like this?
No, He is not limited. But being the Son would limit Him. Just reread the Gospels and realize that the Son was much less than his Father.

Phl 2 also answers these. Notice Jesus chose to MAKE HIMSELF less than God so that he would be dependant upon the Father while He was in the form of man until He would be glorified again. The Father did not make Jesus less than Himself. Jesus made Himself less than Himself when HE TOOK UPON HIMSELF, the form of a servant.

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

I hope I've answered these inquiries to your benefit.
God Bless.