Trinity Doctrine

[Debra R]

Hi Debra,
Can you please quote one scripture to support each of these 2 statements?

Thank you in advance.

Hi, I looked up some verses, though some have already been posted.
Here are some showing Jesus equal with God.


(NKJ) John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

You remember in John 17 where Jesus spoke of the glory He had with the Father. God does not share His glory. Jesus received glory, still receives glory. He receives worship and honor. There have been verses posted where Jesus was worshipped.

Jesus is God. If Jesus is not God then His sacrifce on the cross for our sin would not be enough. He would not have been sinless, because in Romans it says that through one man (Adam) sin entered the world therefore all have sinned. Therefore if Jesus is not God then He would have had sin. He could not have been the unblemished lamb to shed His sinless blood on the cross on our behalf. Jesus is sinless, He is Holy, He is God.

Verses on the Holy Spirit............

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

1 Peter 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Philippians 1:19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

(NABS) Acts 16:7and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

(NKJ) Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

The Holy Spirit can be resisted. He can be grieved. The Holy Spirit leads, directs, He convicts. The Holy Spirit has a mind and a will, He has emotions. I would say that makes Him a "person" even though we know He is Spirit. He can't be seen but He can be felt. He teaches us through our conscience, our mind and our heart.

That's all I came across for now. Hope it helps you some. Blessings.

[Debra R]

So, if Christ is not God, and is only a created being then why does He allow people to worship Him? If He is not God and allows this then He is a sinner, accepting worship that is God's alone.

Hi Toolman ,

this reminded me of King Herod recorded in Acts where he was in a way worshipped, they were calling him a god and an angel of the Lord struck him dead.

(NKJ) Acts 12:21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them.
22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.

[Toolman]

What does the word "worship" mean in these scriptures you quote?

The word worship can mean:
1. To treat somebody or something as a deity.
2. To love somebody deeply.
3. To take part in a religious service.

What makes you so assertive that the word worship here means "worship" to God?

This is not true. The greek word used in each of the verses in Matthew is proskunevw and EVERY SINGLE TIME it is used in the New Testament it denotes worship of either God or those who worship satan/the beast/idols. One can check every instance it is used in the link above.

It is the EXACT SAME WORD that Christ tells satan we are to only worship God:

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship (proskunevw) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

It is the EXACT SAME WORD that Peter tells Cornelius not to do when Cornelius tries to worship him:

Acts 10:25-26 - And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped (proskunevw) him
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

It is the EXACT SAME WORD that the angel of God told John not to do when John attempted to worship the angel:

Rev. 22:8-9 - And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (proskunevw) before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship (proskunevw) God.

Conclusion to your position

According to scripture what you have said is untrue. We have absolutely no instance within scripture where we are told to worship (proskunevw) anyone but God.

We have Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter and the angel of the Lord stating clearly that we are to worship (proskunevw) God only and there is NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that states that we are to worship (proskunevw) anyone but God, so your statement above does not hold up to the scripture just as it did not 1900 years ago when the arian controversy was called heresy. It does not hold up to the test of scripture.

Regarding the Nicene Creed. This is a doctrine formulated by MEN.

Nicene Creed:
A formal statement of Christian beliefs formulated at the first Nicene Council, held in Nicaea in ad 325, subsequently altered and expanded, and still in use in most Christian churches.

How can we be sure that this Council of Nicaea was in fact correct in their belief? The answer to that is based on faith, correct?

No, the answer is based on the scripture. If the Nicene creed were contrary to scripture we would reject it.

But the case is that YOUR POSITION is contrary to scripture and must therefore be rejected.

The Nicene creed is just a secondary support to the fact that the early Church fathers in ecumenical counsel agreed that the scriptures clearly revealed that Jesus is deity and truly God amongst us, God in the flesh.

But scripture is the final authority and as I have clearly shown above scripture proves your position as false and your position must therefore be rejected as error. Doesn't mean you have to reject it but it means that others can clearly be shown the error of your doctrine and flee from it as error about Christ.

What did the apostles say about obeying men?

Acts 5:29 says...
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!

Right and you are simply a man coming on a board touting something that scripture proves to be false, so we reject the teaching of man (you) and place our faith and trust in what scripture says about Christ, that He is God and nothing less and we are to worship Him.

[Toolman]

I don't see Jesus Christ as being EQUAL to God, the father, the Almighty God in the heavens.

Jesus Christ clearly states this throughout the scriptures. Too many to quote. Even while he is dying he speaks to his father in the heavens.

Matthew 27:46...
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

If Jesus = God why would he pray and speak to himself? It's just too confusing and God is not a God of confusion.

Once again this is a misleading and misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity as understood from scripture.

God the Father and Jesus are both of the same essence or substance but are different "persons" with different roles within the Godhead.

Jesus is equal to the Father in deity (uncreated and eternal is essence) but Jesus, the incarnate Son, humbles Himself to God the Father as fully human.

Just because you don't understand God's nature doesn't mean He is confusing. It does mean His ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

Even Peter said about Paul's teaching:

2 Peter 3:15 - and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures

Just because something is hard to understand doesn't mean it is not from God. You are misusing the God of confustion scripture out of context. That simply means God does thing in orderly fashion and not chaos. It doesn't mean that some things about God aren't difficult for our finite minds to rap around.

[petepet]

Just to reinforce and add to some of the arguments previously offered.

1). The Firstborn is the Greek word prototokos. This means firstBORN, not first created. Thus whatever it proves it demonstrates that Jesus was BORN from God. Had Paul mean that He was the first created he would have said so.

But the term 'firstborn' was a technical term in Scripture to indicate status. A man's firstborn had a privileged position in the household. He was the heir apparent to the headship of the household. Thus as 'the heir of all things' Jesus had to be the firstborn

But it goes further than that. In the Greek world the Logos was the eternal Reason, the non-created, the very centre of the heart of God. John expressed a similar idea when he spoke of Jesus as the Word Who was in a face to face relationship with God, and was Himself of the stuff of Godhead (John 1.1-3). But to the Greeks the Logos was also spoken of as the prototokos, the Firstborn. Thus the term prototokos = logos = God.

If you turn to Matthew 28.19 you obtain the same idea. Men were to be baptised in the ONE NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And what was that one Name? It was Yahweh (Jehovah). In other words Jesus shared the Name of Yahweh because He was God.

This is confirmed by Paul in Philippians 2. There Jesus, having first emptied Himself of His status as God and having taken on the status of a servant, was restored to the position that He had forsaken. He was given 'the Name that is above every Name' the Name of LORD (in Greek kurios, in Hebrew Yahweh). Thus Jesus receives the Name of Yahweh. That alone was the Name above every Name. And Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one (Deuteronomy 6.5). Not one numerically but one in essence echad.

Our problem is that we have to speak of 'persons'. But the problem with the term is that we are physical and therefore each person has to be separate from all other persons. God is not three persons in the sense that He is three individuaols. God is Spirit. And therefore it is possible for there to be a threefold interpersonal relationship within the Godhead without it indicating three individuals. None of the members of the Triune God ever act independently of the others. That is why so often activities can be spoken of as performed by One and the Other. The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF but only what He sees the Father doing (John 5.19). Now that either means that Jesus is God or it means that He is an automaton without even the ability that we have. Because we can do things that the Father does not (e.g. sin). Again 'all men must honor the Son as they honor the Father' (John 5.23). Equal honor means equal status. To make that claim would have been blasphemy had He not been God.

That is why Jesus could say HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER (John 14.9). Why? Because He FULLY reflected all that the Father was. Every action, every deed that they had seen had been the Father at work in the Son without restriction and without exception. It represents total unity.

That is why Jesus could say that His Father had committed ALL THINGS into His hands. 'ALL THINGS that the Father has are mine' (John 16.15). Now who alone can say that? The owner and creator of the universe. The One with equal status with the Father.

There is only one God, but He is expressed in a threefold interpersonal relationship which composes His Being, able PERSONALLY to be in three places at once, and yet being ONE. The result is always total harmony, always total agreement, and always results in the fact that what One does all do.

Imagine a film actor who plays a number of characters at the same time. Of course he cannot do that. He can only play one after the other. But with the magic of the silver screen (that dates me) we can actually put all the characters in the same scene so that he IS seemingly playing three character at the same time. Of course it is a fudge. But that is what God can actually do. Play three personalities at the same time. acting in three different spheres. Because God is not limited to space. And He is a threefold interpersonal being.

God is never three and one in the same way. He is one in threeness. But we cannot fully understand it because within our experience there is nothing like God except God Himself. We have to believe what God has revealed

In Him.

[Me2007Too]

Thank You all for your replies. I really appreciate the time you put into this. You are displaying a loving quality when you do this.
Your answers have given me a great deal of insight about your thoughts on this based on scriptural evidence. I am still not 100% clear on it because as some of you stated, this is not that easy to understand. However I see your point of view.

So, to clearly understand this doctrine, we need to understand that Christians who believe in the Trinity Doctrine are actually worshipping a Godhead, right?

This Godhead consists of 3 entities:
1. God, the father
2. God, the son
3. God, the holy spirit.

In other words, we can worship Jesus Christ and we can worship the Holy Spirit the same exact way we worship the almighty God YHWH, Jehovah because they are all GOD, right?


So, acknowledging that this is in fact the truth, the Roman Catholic faith is correct on their belief that Mary is the mother of God. Do protestants believe this too?

I look forward to your replies.

[TrustingFollower]

So, acknowledging that this is in fact the truth, the Roman Catholic faith is correct on their belief that Mary is the mother of God. Do protestants believe this too?

I look forward to your replies.

This is a discussion for another thread. If this thread turns into a discussion about the Roman Catholic doctrine then I will have no choice but to move this to the World Religions forum. Everyone please stay on topic with this thread.

Thanks,
TF

[Toolman]

Thank You all for your replies. I really appreciate the time you put into this. You are displaying a loving quality when you do this.
Your answers have given me a great deal of insight about your thoughts on this based on scriptural evidence. I am still not 100% clear on it because as some of you stated, this is not that easy to understand. However I see your point of view.

So, to clearly understand this doctrine, we need to understand that Christians who believe in the Trinity Doctrine are actually worshipping a Godhead, right?

This Godhead consists of 3 entities:
1. God, the father
2. God, the son
3. God, the holy spirit.

In other words, we can worship Jesus Christ and we can worship the Holy Spirit the same exact way we worship the almighty God YHWH, Jehovah because they are all GOD, right?

That is correct, these 3 persons or better said, subsistences, are what make up the single God that we worship.

There is only one God who is revealed in 3 persons or subsistences. But there is only one God.

So, acknowledging that this is in fact the truth, the Roman Catholic faith is correct on their belief that Mary is the mother of God. Do protestants believe this too?

If you would like to start a thread in WR and discuss the hypostatic union I would be glad to enter that discussion. Just let me know if you do.

[calidog]

In other words, we can worship Jesus Christ and we can worship the Holy Spirit the same exact way we worship the almighty God YHWH, Jehovah because they are all GOD, right?

As a side note, we learn that the Holy Spirit testifies to us of Jesus and did not come to testify of Himself. He will point us to Christ.

[Naphal]

So now we are down to two persons in the Godhead? John says there are three that bear witness:
1Jn 5:7 For there are three bearing witness

There are three witnesses but not three persons. I have already said the TRINITY, meaning THREE, is valid. But to say THREE PERSONS is incorrect scripturally.

So we are made in the image of the Father and of the Son and this discussion in heaven was between the Father and the Son?

Yes it was between the father and Son. That's why God said "us" and that's why God in the Hebrew is plural there.

Paul doesnt seem to agree with you:

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

He indicates we obtain grace in Christ, the love of God, and fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

I have no disagreements with anything Paul has written. That simply has no bearing on this topic at all.

We know Christ intercedes to the Father on our behalf. We see that the Holy Spirit does also:


Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The person of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit intercede for us to the Person of the Father.

There is no such thing as the "person of the Holy spirit" separate from the person of the father because the HS is the spirit of the Father.


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

One way to identify who or what the Holy Spirit is is by studying who raised Jesus from the dead. Here we read that it was "the Spirit of him" as in the Spirit of God the Father. But it is been disputed what this means. Does this mean a spirit that God sent as opposed to his own personal, unique spirit? Does it mean the Spirit is a person separate from the Father meaning not the Father but someone else?

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Here is a good clue. We see that the Father of Jesus raised Jesus from the dead so we know that the previous verse which said "the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead" is equal to God the Father, the father of Jesus is the one who did the raising and He did this Himself in spirit form, the Holy Spirit, God the Father's own personal spirit. Not a spirit as in a person or servant of the Father but the Father himself.

The key part of these verses is that the one who raised Jesus is Jesus' Father therefore we know that the spirit of the Father is actually the Father as a spirit or in spirit form. The Holy Spirit is not a different person than the Father but the Father's actual spirit.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Here it is said much plainer.

Who raised Jesus? The Father, or some other supposed person who is not the Father?

The Holy Spirit is said to have raised Jesus and here we have it said that the Father raised Jesus hence the Holy Spirit is the Father in some way rather than the Holy Spirit being a different person than the Father.

I do not view this topic as salvational in nature but I do view it as being important because God has revealed himself and yet we are very confused about who and what He is. As for the concept of the Godhead being "co-equal" if that means equal as far as all being fully God then yes they are equal, but there is hierarchy in the Godhead and in that sense they are not co-equal.

So in summation, how do we describe God in simple terms?

One God, three persons? I think that's too simplistic and isn't accurate to the following scripture:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Any other terms or definitions reach beyond what scripture itself gives us. Over and over we see these three in this description so who are we to alter it?



The Holy Spirit is a spirit and is not naturally referred to as the "Holy Person".
If the Holy Spirit were actually a person then we would have the Father, the Son and a third and separate being who really has no name. This isn't the case for scripture speaks of what the Holy Spirit is.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Here it's pretty clear that the Father has his own spirit, which raised Christ from the dead.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The Father's spirit is also known as "the glory of the Father".

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Christ speaking.

"your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him"

Christ says "your Father" which is in heaven (not standing before you) will send you His Spirit if you ask Him. Christ is very clear to say the Holy Spirit comes from our Father which is in heaven, not that the Holy Spirit comes from Christ.


Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Here we see the Trinity: The Father is referred to as "the Highest", then we have the Holy Spirit, and we have the Son of God the Father.


Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Christ is the Son of the Highest!

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

As far as I know this is the only time the Holy Spirit has taken a bodily form and it was not of a person but of a bird. Spirits in general are invisible to the human eye so God the Father manifested His Spirit to be visually seen as if it were a dove.


Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The same Trinity is seen here.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Jesus is full of his Father's Holy Spirit, and that same spirit led him into the wilderness.

Why does Jesus do as this Spirit leads him?

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Because He came here to do the Will of the Father which sent him here!

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Christ speaks of the Holy Spirit as the "promise of the Father".

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And here, the power of the Father shall be received by these disciples. That power from the Father is the Holy Spirit that "came upon" them.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

(CEV) Jesus was taken up to sit at the right side of God, and he was given the Holy Spirit, just as the Father had promised. Jesus is also the one who has given the Spirit to us, and that is what you are now seeing and hearing.

(GW) God used his power to give Jesus the highest position. Jesus has also received and has poured out the Holy Spirit as the Father had promised, and this is what you're seeing and hearing.

(MSG) Then, raised to the heights at the right hand of God and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he poured out the Spirit he had just received. That is what you see and hear.


Jesus himself "received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost"!

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God the Father anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit! That's how Jesus came to have the Holy Spirit and that's essentially how Christians also receive it:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

God the Father gave the Holy Spirit to Christ and others because they "obeyed" Him.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God the Father anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit! Jesus didn't have it until that anointing! We also don't have it unless the Father anoints us with it. He gives His spirit to those who obey him.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Here is the Trinity again.


1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The Holy Spirit was "sent down from heaven" upon Christ, and upon all men who receive it. It is sent down from the Father "which is in heaven".

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

In these scriptures the the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Comforter, and the Spirit of truth.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ is very clear that the Holy Spirit comes from the Father, not from him.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Here we are told two times where the Holy Spirit originates from.

The Fathers sends his own spirit in the name of Christ which means that it is done due to Christ's intervention. It is not Christ's spirit, and it is not a separate person or a person at all. It is a spirit of the Father.

The Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter are all names for the same Holy Spirit from the Father. Christ prays to His Father to have that Father send His Holy Spirit to us to abide with us.


John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The HS is called "another comforter", a second type of comforter because Christ was the first comforter. So, when Christ left the world he prayed to the Father to send His spirit to us in Christ's name. So, Christ sends the HS but it actually originates from the Father.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

"the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name"
"I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter"
"the Comforter" "whom I will send unto you from the Father"
"which proceedeth from the Father"
"it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father"

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The Holy Spirit would not have come to mankind had Christ not ascended to heaven to be with His Father.

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Here we have the delivering up and the time that the Holy Spirit speaks through God's servants in the Tribulation.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.



Conclusion: The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.

[Naphal]

Of course they are two separate persons. And those two persons are one with the Third Person.

Jesus is the Eternal Father as Isaiah 9:6 stated.

Except there is no third person.

[petepet]

Except there is no third person.

That is indeed strange when we are baptised into the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Whatever that indicates it indicates a distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit, otherwise wht is the Son placed between them.

The Holy Spirit came from the Father to Jesus at Jesus baptism. It was deliberately in bodily form so as to indicate the separateness of the Spirit from the Father. It clearly again indicated three separatenesses within the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of the Father. He is also called the Spirit of Christ. But He is also called the Holy (set apart) Spirit. Of course the whole of the Godhead is Spirit (John 4.24). And of course both Father and Son manifest themselves through the Spirit, in the same way as the Father manifested Himself through the Son. So within that state are three spiritual personalities who intercommunicate and speak with each other, and manifest each other. The Spirit says 'come' (Revelation 22.17). It is the Spirit Who teaches words to the prophets. We cannot avoid the distinctiveness of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

I have no intention of going into the doctrine of Mary I will simply say in defence of the doctrine of the Trinity that in Scripture we are told that the Holy Spirit came on her so that her son was both God and man. She was used in the bilogical production of His manhood, she had no part in the production of His Godhead, otherwise He was not God. He came into her in His eternal being, eternally begotten. So mother of God simply means that she was given the task on earth of bringing into the world and rearing the One Who was God and conjoing Him with manhood. But she only carried His divinity, not biologically bore it. (I don't think that there is any controversy about that, and it is important for understanding the doctrine of the Trinity)

[deepjagga]

So, if Christ is not God, and is only a created being then why does He allow people to worship Him? If He is not God and allows this then He is a sinner, accepting worship that is God's alone.

There are different forms of worship throughout the Bible. In both the old and the new testaments, lots of people were worshipped in the same manner as Jesus was when they arrived to someone's house or in someone's pressence. It was customary for someone to bow down to their feet and greet them in that manner when they first saw them-not just Jesus but the kings and princes were worshipped like that in the same manner throughout the Bible. That is much different than the worship we offer up to God.

Jesus was not given the type of worship that God receives. Jesus was not given the thanksgiving of praise, Jesus was not reverenced as we do God, Jesus was not to be given the love with all of our hearts, soul, mind, and strength that he himself commanded we give to God.

Another thing, the only way we would be accountable for worshipping Jesus, in the same manner in which we worship God, is if Jesus had worshipped himself while on earth, and he didn't. We are to let the mind that is in Christ Jesus be in us-Jesus prayed to, worshipped, trusted, had relationship with God-not himself. We are to do likewise.

[Me2007Too]

This is a discussion for another thread. If this thread turns into a discussion about the Roman Catholic doctrine then I will have no choice but to move this to the World Religions forum. Everyone please stay on topic with this thread.

Thanks,
TF

Hi Trusting Follower,
My intention is not to deviate from the topic "The Trinity Doctrine".
My intention when I ask the question about Mary is to understand the reuslts of acknowledging that Jesus Christ equals the almighty God.
As you can see, I ask the question Do protestants believe that Mary is the mother of God?

[Me2007Too]

That is correct, these 3 persons or better said, subsistences, are what make up the single God that we worship.

There is only one God who is revealed in 3 persons or subsistences. But there is only one God.



If you would like to start a thread in WR and discuss the hypostatic union I would be glad to enter that discussion. Just let me know if you do.

Hypostatic Union. I had to research that one, because I had not heard this term before.

After looking it up in Wikipedia I see what you mean.

Being that this Hypostatic Union is relevant to the discussion, "The Trinity Doctrine", why would this topic need to be started in the World Religions section?

We have established the definition of "The Trinity Doctrine" and what it stands for. I want to understand the results of believing in it.