How to Deal with a Jehovah's Witness

[Sold Out]

HOW TO DEAL WITH A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS

Whenever a Christian deals with a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS, he/she must broach the subject of who CHRIST is before going any further. It’s simple to do. Just start with:

1. Matthew 3:1-3 & Isaiah 40:3

Ask them to take their bible and turn to Matthew 3:1-3 (without them looking at the verse), then lay it down. Open your bible to the same scripture, then lay your bible on top of theirs. Now read the verse:

“In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.”

Ask them who John the Baptist was preparing the way for? They will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!
Now take your bible off of theirs, and read the same verse. Their bibles are a special translation, called the New World Translation –

“In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de´a, saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”

Their Bible says John was preparing the way for Jehovah, the Hebrew word for God! This is where you will find out if they are honest or not. They have just admitted that John was preparing the way for Jesus Christ, and in their own bible it says He is Jehovah (God).


2. Acts 2:21 / Romans 10:13 / Joel 2:32

Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13 quote from Joel 2:32 in the Old Testament:

Acts 2:21,“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (speaking of Christ)
Romans 10:13,“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Ask them who is being referred to here in these two verses, and they will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!

Now take them to Joel 2:32,
“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (Jehovah) shall call.”

Luke (who wrote Acts) and Paul (who wrote Romans), have clearly stated that Jesus is Jehovah (God)!


3. Ephesians 4:8 & Psalm 68:17-19

Eph 4:7,8, “But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” (quoting Psa 68:18)

Ask them who is being referred to here In Ephesians 4, and they will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!! Now take them back to Psalm 68:17-19 -

“The chariots of God (Elohim) are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord (ADONAY) is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. Thou (speaking of God) hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God (Elohim) might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord (ADONAY), who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God (El) of our salvation. Selah.

Paul is quoting Psalm 68 in reference to Christ. Psalm 68:17-19 is speaking of God! This shows Jesus Christ is God! Here is Psalm 68:17-19 in their bible translation (NWT):

“The war chariots of God are in tens of thousands, thousands over and over again.
Jehovah himself has come from Si´nai into the holy place. You have ascended on high;
You have carried away captives; You have taken gifts in the form of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside [among them], O Jah God. Blessed be Jehovah, who daily carries the load for us,
The [true] God of our salvation. Se´lah. “


4.Ephesians 5:14 & Isaiah 60:1

Eph 5:14,“Wherefore he saith, (nowquoting Isa 60:1) Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.”

Now take them back to the verse Paul quoted, Isaiah 60:1,

“Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD (JEHOVAH) is risen upon thee.”

Paul purposely used the word CHRIST in place of Lord when quoting Isaiah 60:1 in order to prove a point – that Jesus is Jehovah, God in flesh! Here are same scriptures in their translation (NWT) –

“Wherefore he says: “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and the Christ will shine upon you.” Eph 5:14

“Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth.” Isaiah 60:1


5. Matthew 21:16 & Psalm 8:1-2

Jesus said in Matt 21:16,

“And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise” (quoting Psa 8:2)

Ask them that in this verse, is Jesus stating that he is worthy of praise? They will say yes, of course!!
Now take them to Psalm 8:1,2 -

“To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David. O LORD (Jehovah) our Lord (Jehovah), how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.”

Jesus quoted Psalm 8:2 in reference to Himself. Psalm 8:1-2 is speaking of Jehovah!! Jesus was stating that He is Jehovah!


6. John 12:36-41 & Isaiah 53:1

“While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, “Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed”? Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, ‘He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them’. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John states here that Jesus was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. Here is Isaiah 53:1 –

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD (Jehovah) revealed?

The LORD mentioned here in Isaiah’s prophecy is JEHOVAH! Jesus fulfilled the prophecy that He is Jehovah, God in flesh!


7. John 8:24,58 & Exodus 3:4,14

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:24
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:56-58

Jesus is claiming to be God in the verses above, by referring to Himself as the ‘I AM’ of Exodus 3:4,14 –

“And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.” Exodus 3:4
“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus 3:14



8. Mark 1:2,3 & Malachi 3:1,4

“As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” (quoting Malachi 3:1)

Again, ask them who is the person that John the Baptist was preparing the way for. They will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!

Now take them back to Malachi 3:1,4 –

Vs 1 “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, (Adonai) whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts.
Vs 4 “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD,(Jehovah) as in the days of old, and as in former years.”

If they are honest, they will have to admit that in Mark 1:2&3, Christ is the LORD (Jehovah) that Mark quoted from Malachi 3:1,4!


9. Romans 14:9-11/Isaiah 45:23

Ask them to open their bible to Romans 14:9-11. Have them read the verses from both versions.

“For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' (quoting Isaiah 45:23) NIV

“ For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” NWT

Ask them who will judge them? They will undoubtedly say God, of course! Then have them read John 5:22 from both versions….


“Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” NIV

“ For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,” NWT




1. If you were disfellowshiped from the watchtower society of Jehovah witnesses tomorrow, would you consider yourself as having any future hope left in God? if your answer is yes, then you are in effect saying that the Watchtower is ultimately unnecessary, as you are able to come to God apart from it?
If your answer is no, then you are in effect saying that the Watchtower is the appointed mediator between God and man, But that contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, in the New World translation, 'There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus'

2. 'Do you honestly believe that one is able to understand the truths contained in the Word of God without the aid of the Watchtower teachings?'
If your answer is yes then the teachings of the Watchtower become uneccessary. If your answer is no, then you are placing such teachings of man on the same level or even above the Word of God.

[jujubea]

Just to let you know....I compiled a very lenghty respose for you. Attempted to post it. It was too large. I thought I had coppied and saved it to be able to post it today in a two parter, only to realize today, that I didn't save it as I had thought. You have no idea how frustrating that is. It may take me a bit of time, but I will recopile my respose and post it, hopefully later today, but if not don't give up hope, I will respond.

[Seeker of truth]

My Pastor tells them he hopes they are right because if they are he will only sleep forever. But if they are wrong they will go to hell.

I have come to the conclusion (based on many conversation with JW) it is no use debating with them. I just love them and pray for them. It's a lot less frustraiting than to sit and try to prove my beliefs to them

[itsme23]

Good one! Praying for their souls with tears, (especially in front of them), is about the only way to get through to them. That was a personal experience.

John 1:1, Eph. 2:8,9 hits them too.

My Pastor tells them he hopes they are right because if they are he will only sleep forever. But if they are wrong they will go to hell.

I have come to the conclusion (based on many conversation with JW) it is no use debating with them. I just love them and pray for them. It's a lot less frustraiting than to sit and try to prove my beliefs to them

[th1bill]

For over two years I worked with a JW who admitted to me that all the scripture I had shown him made sense to him when I explained it to him but he still refuse to convert. If he converted he would loose all his friends because they would kick him out of the Kingdom Hall and when that happened he would loose his wife because she had told him what to believe and she would never concede her power to determine his faith. The only thing I could conclude was that Johnny would rather go to Hell than to suffer the wrath of his wife and mother-in-law. Others that have come to my door over the years always leave, shaking their heads while claiming they would send an Elder back to talk to me, the invisible elder has yet to show up but the Witnesses have ceased to visit. The only way I get to speak to any of them now is to get on my walker and get out to the street before they leave my neighbor's house and then they just tell me they have been forbidden to speak to me because I'm a heritic.

I believe that the never visible elder has decided that I'm dangerous, what with the way I go straight to the scriptures. For those of you that care to dig that deeply, take heart, I have never blown any parts of my body off by learning and applying the scriptures to my everyday life, yet anyway.

[Sold Out]

.

I believe that the never visible elder has decided that I'm dangerous, what with the way I go straight to the scriptures. For those of you that care to dig that deeply, take heart, I have never blown any parts of my body off by learning and applying the scriptures to my everyday life, yet anyway.

Way to be dangerous!


"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1:3

[jujubea]

Sorry for the delay. I was unable to spend as much time at the computer this week as I would have liked.

HOW TO DEAL WITH A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS

Whenever a Christian deals with a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS, he/she must broach the subject of who CHRIST is before going any further. It’s simple to do. Just start with:
2. Acts 2:21 / Romans 10:13 / Joel 2:32
Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13 quote from Joel 2:32 in the Old Testament:
Acts 2:21,"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (speaking of Christ)
Romans 10:13,"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Ask them who is being referred to here in these two verses, and they will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!

You are incorrect, a Witness would not say that Acts and Romans are refering to Jesus. They themselves would take you to Joel, 2:31,32 to show that it is in fact refering to Jehovah.

Now take them to Joel 2:32,
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (Jehovah) shall call."
Luke (who wrote Acts) and Paul (who wrote Romans), have clearly stated that Jesus is Jehovah (God)!

I dissagree. The Appostles are clearly pointing out the necessity of knowing and relying on Jehovah God. This is a good example of the confusion that comes about by the removal of Jehovah's name from the scriptures. Wherever it says Lord, people assume that it is Jesus who is being spoken of. However if Jehovah's name had been in it's proper place, such confusion could not take place. There is an interesting note to Romans 10 verse 11 states "For the Scripture says: "None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed." Here Paul is quoting form Isaiah 28:16 "Because of these things, this is what the Lord God (Jehovah) says: "I will put a stone in the ground in Jerusalem, a tested stone. Everything will be built on this important and precious rock. Anyone who trusts in it will never be disappointed." (New Century Version)
The stone spoken of is Jesus. Jehovah is the one placing the stone. Therefore in quick succession verses 10&11, Paul points to the necessity of relying on Jehovha God, and also the important role Jesus plays in Jehovah's purposes.
Paul had no doubt as to who God was (1Cor.8:5,6) "For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."

4.Ephesians 5:14 & Isaiah 60:1
Eph 5:14,"Wherefore he saith, (nowquoting Isa 60:1) Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
Now take them back to the verse Paul quoted, Isaiah 60:1,
"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD (JEHOVAH) is risen upon thee."
Paul purposely used the word CHRIST in place of Lord when quoting Isaiah 60:1 in order to prove a point – that Jesus is Jehovah, God in flesh! Here are same scriptures in their translation (NWT) –
"Wherefore he says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and the Christ will shine upon you." Eph 5:14
"Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth." Isaiah 60:1

You are making the assumption that Ephesians is quoting from Isaiah 60:1 . I do not believe this to be the case. They are very different. One says Arise, and is speaking to Zion, while the other says Awake and is speaking to those who are asleep in death. However that aside, using your reasoning we can assume also that the disciples are Jehovah since they too are called light and told to shine forth. (Matthew 5:14,16)

5. Matthew 21:16 & Psalm 8:1-2 Jesus said in Matt 21:16, "And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea;haveyeneverread,Out ofthemouthofbabesandsucklingsthouhastperfectedpraise" (quoting Psa 8:2)
Ask them that in this verse, is Jesus stating that he is worthy of praise? They will say yes, of course!!
Now take them to Psalm 8:1,2 -
"To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David. O LORD (Jehovah) our Lord (Jehovah), how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger."
Jesus quoted Psalm 8:2 in reference to Himself. Psalm 8:1-2 is speaking of Jehovah!! Jesus was stating that He is Jehovah!

The children are giving a witness regarding Jesus, which fulfills the statement at Psalms. Were the children praising John the Baptist, or any other servant of Jehovah, it would likewise fulfill the scripture in Psalms. Jehovah was using them to furnish praise. Jesus does not say that he himself caused them to furnish praise. The praise they give is interesting, they say "Save, we pray, the Son of David". They were pointing to the fact that Jesus was the messiah, not God.

7. John 8:24,58 & Exodus 3:4,14
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:56-58
Jesus is claiming to be God in the verses above, by referring to Himself as the ‘I AM’ of Exodus 3:4,14 –
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I." Exodus 3:4
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Exodus 3:14

Interesting...Are we to assume then that wherever the term I am appears that this is in fact refering to Exodus 3:4? If that is the case, there are alot of people who are "I am". The truth of the matter is that in Exodus the words being translated are ’Eh·yeh´ ’Asher´ ’Eh·yeh´. The Hebrew verb ha·yah´, from which the word ’Eh·yeh´ is drawn, does not mean simply "be." Rather, it means "become," or "prove to be."
This is noted in the Complete Jewish Bible which renders Ex.3:14 "God said to Moshe, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be]," and added, "Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.'"
In Exodus, ’Eh·yeh´ ’Asher´ ’Eh·yeh´ is stated as a title whereas the scripture in John it is not. Jesus is pointing to his prehuman existance, nothing more. The Greek words being translated are "ego eimi" and is translated in the King James as: "I am", "I am he" "I was" "have been" "am" as well as "it is".
Translating John 8:56-58 as "I am" in an effort to link it to Exodus shows the translators leanings. It doesn't even make sense gramatically if it is a title or name. The very same wording can be found at John 9:9 yet the translators of many versions do not translate it as "I am" but as "I am he". Why? Because the translator have no vested interest in trying to link the formerly blind begger to the title of Exodus.

9. Romans 14:9-11/Isaiah 45:23
Ask them to open their bible to Romans 14:9-11. Have them read the verses from both versions.
"For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' (quoting Isaiah 45:23) NIV
" For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: "‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’" NWT
Ask them who will judge them? They will undoubtedly say God, of course! Then have them read John 5:22 from both versions….
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son" NIV
" For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son," NWT)!

I find this one interesting, since the scripture you quote, John 5:22 pretty much gives the answer. Jehovah judges through Jesus. He has "entrusted all judgement" to Jesus. However if Jehovah did not entrust this position to Jesus, it would not be his. The Apostles are also said to be given the position of judge, are they Jehovah as well?
(1 Corinthians 6:2) "Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters?"
(Matthew 19:28) "Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[jujubea]

1. Matthew 3:1-3 & Isaiah 40:3 Ask them to take their bible and turn to Matthew 3:1-3 (without them looking at the verse), then lay it down. Open your bible to the same scripture, then lay your bible on top of theirs. Now read the verse:
"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
Ask them who John the Baptist was preparing the way for? They will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!
Now take your bible off of theirs, and read the same verse. Their bibles are a special translation, called the New World Translation –
"In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de´a, saying: "REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: "Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’"
Their Bible says John was preparing the way for Jehovah, the Hebrew word for God! This is where you will find out if they are honest or not. They have just admitted that John was preparing the way for Jesus Christ, and in their own bible it says He is Jehovah (God).
8. Mark 1:2,3 & Malachi 3:1,4
"As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." (quoting Malachi 3:1)
Again, ask them who is the person that John the Baptist was preparing the way for. They will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!
Now take them back to Malachi 3:1,4 –
Vs 1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, (Adonai) whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts.
Vs 4 "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD,(Jehovah) as in the days of old, and as in former years."
If they are honest, they will have to admit that in Mark 1:2&3, Christ is the LORD (Jehovah) that Mark quoted from Malachi 3:1,4!

The account in Mark and Matthew are the same account. They are both quoting from Isaiah. Mark is not quoting from Malachi. It is not a lack of honesty on my part to recognize this. Mark himself clearly states who it is that he is quoting from in verse two. "Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: "Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way "

Malachi is an interesting scripture. Again it is shown how important it is not to change Jehovha's name to LORD. Although you have done your due dilligence in looking up which lord is Adonai and which is Jehovah, many do not. But let us take a look.

Malachi 3:1 "Look! I am sending my messenger, and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the [true] Lord, whom YOU people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant in whom YOU are delighting. Look! He will certainly come," Jehovah of armies has said."

The first instance of Lord (Adonai) is refering to Jesus, the messanger of the covenant. He is spoken of in this verse as someone other than Jehovah, who is making the statement.

3. Ephesians 4:8 & Psalm 68:17-19
Eph 4:7,8, "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." (quoting Psa 68:18)
Ask them who is being referred to here In Ephesians 4, and they will undoubtedly say Jesus Christ of course!! Now take them back to Psalm 68:17-19 -
"The chariots of God (Elohim) are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord (ADONAY) is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. Thou (speaking of God) hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God (Elohim) might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord (ADONAY), who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God (El) of our salvation. Selah.
Paul is quoting Psalm 68 in reference to Christ. Psalm 68:17-19 is speaking of God! This shows Jesus Christ is God! Here is Psalm 68:17-19 in their bible translation (NWT):
"The war chariots of God are in tens of thousands, thousands over and over again.
Jehovah himself has come from Si´nai into the holy place. You have ascended on high;
You have carried away captives; You have taken gifts in the form of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside [among them], O Jah God. Blessed be Jehovah, who daily carries the load for us,
The [true] God of our salvation. Se´lah. "
6. John 12:36-41 & Isaiah 53:1
"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, "Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed"? Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, ‘He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them’. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John states here that Jesus was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. Here is Isaiah 53:1 –
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD (Jehovah) revealed?
The LORD mentioned here in Isaiah’s prophecy is JEHOVAH! Jesus fulfilled the prophecy that He is Jehovah, God in flesh!

You are correct, Matthew and Mark are quoting Isaiah, Ephesians Psalms and John Isaiah. I can see how it could cause some confusion if one does not take all scriptures into account. Throughout the scriptures there are a number of places where in one scripture it states that Jehovah is or has done something, while in another verse credit is given to the servant Jehovah used to accomplish it.

(Acts 7:30) "And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si´nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush.

(Exodus 3:4) "When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: "Moses! Moses!" to which he said: "Here I am.

(Exodus 14: 19, 20) "Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. 20 So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel
(Exodus 14:13) "And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime in a pillar of cloud to lead them by the way, and in the nighttime in a pillar of fire to give them light to go in the daytime and nighttime. 22 The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime."

The above examples may lead some to believe that Jehovah God is an angel. Other scriptures taken into account help to clarify.

(Exodus 23:20) "Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared."

(Exodus 32:34) "And now, come, lead the people to where I have spoken to you of. Look! My angel will go ahead of you, and on the day of my bringing punishment I shall certainly bring punishment upon them for their sin."

Jehovah spoke to Moses and led the way by means of angelic representative. Jehovah was accomplishing it through servants.
The Law itself is at times refered to as the "Law of Moses" and at other times the "Law of Jehovah" (Dan.9:13; Psalm 1:2) This is of course not to say that Moses is Jehovah. Jehovah gave his law through Moses.

The same is true of Jesus. Although at times the scriptures speak of it as though it is Jehovah accomplishing it, other scriptures credit Jesus. this does not mean that Jesus is Jehovah anymore than it meant Moses of an angel were Jehovah. How can we be sure? Other scriptures ,if taken into consideration, make it clear. Jehovah is accomlashing these things through Jesus.

(John 1:3) "All things came into existence through him"

(Acts 2:22) "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·rene´, a man publicly shown by God to YOU through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in YOUR midst,

(John 3:17) "For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him."

(John 14:6) "Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "

(Acts 4:29,30) "And now, Jehovah, give attention to their threats, and grant your slaves to keep speaking your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and portents occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

Acts 13:38 "Let it therefore be known to YOU, brothers, that through this One a forgiveness of sins is being published to YOU;

John 5:19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

When Stephen was being stoned he was given a vision. He did not see God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:55,56) "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand." Jesus is not described as any part of God. Rather he is at God's right hand.

Matthew 22:41-46 "Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them: 42 "What do YOU think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him: "David’s." 43 He said to them: "How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet"’? 45 If, therefore, David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?" 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, nor did anyone dare from that day on to question him any further.

In the above Jesus quotes from Psalm 110:1. The Pharisees recognized that the Lord Jehovah was speaking to was the Messiah or Christ. Jesus is clearly agreeing that the Christ is the Lord being spoken to by Jehovah. He does not try to change any thought on this. This is in harmony with the vision Stephen received.

All of these scriptures help us to appreciate that Jesus is not Jehovah, he is his Son.

[jujubea]

1. If you were disfellowshiped from the watchtower society of Jehovah witnesses tomorrow, would you consider yourself as having any future hope left in God? if your answer is yes, then you are in effect saying that the Watchtower is ultimately unnecessary, as you are able to come to God apart from it?
If your answer is no, then you are in effect saying that the Watchtower is the appointed mediator between God and man, But that contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, in the New World translation, 'There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus' !

When a person is disfellowshipped from the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses it is not necessarily a permanant situation. Disfellowshipping is a means of disciplinning unrepentant wrongdoers. However if the wrong doer demonstrates repentance, they are reinstated. A friend of mine has been disfellowshipped 3 times. Currently he is a member of the congregation in good standing. So to answer your question no I would not view it as having no hope left in God.

The scriptures are quite clear as to the channel of command.

1Cor.11:3 "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."

Eph.1:22,23 "He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all."

Hebrews 13:17 "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU."

It is a top down administration. God, then Jesus, then those in the congregation who are taking the lead. The reason for this arrangement is stated in Ephesians.

Eph.4:11-16 " And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; 14 in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ. 16 From him all the body, by being harmoniously joined together and being made to cooperate through every joint that gives what is needed, according to the functioning of each respective member in due measure, makes for the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."
Luke 10:16 "He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth."

We are expected to listen to those whom Jesus has appointed in the congregation. Jesus considers it as good as listening to him, and in turn as good as listening to God. Those who refuse are judged based on this.

Matthew 25:34-46 "Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’
41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."

Do we beleive the Watchtower is the mediator? No, they are Christ's brothers, whom the above notes we need to aid to have a good standing with Jesus and Jehovah. They are ambassadors

2Cor.5:20 "We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: "Become reconciled to God."

S.O., I am glad you recognize that Jesus is the mediator between God and man. He is in fact mediator of the new covenant between God and man (Hebrews 8:6; 9:15;12:24.) A mediator is one who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them; an intercessor; an intermediary agent, or go-between. In the Scriptures the term is applied to Moses and Jesus, the mediators respectively of the Law covenant and the new covenant.—Ga 3:19; 1Ti 2:5. As such he plays a vital role as a third party in a legal agreement. In a legal bargaining situation the mediator is expected to bargain on behalf of both parties entering the agreement. Were Jesus actually God, he could not be considered a mediator between himslef and man. In such a case the legal agreement would not be seen as having been bargained in good faith.

[jujubea]

2. 'Do you honestly believe that one is able to understand the truths contained in the Word of God without the aid of the Watchtower teachings?'
If your answer is yes then the teachings of the Watchtower become uneccessary. If your answer is no, then you are placing such teachings of man on the same level or even above the Word of God.!

Let me ask you S.O., have you come to your understanding of the scriptures with no aid of others? Why do people go to church? Is it not to gain greater understanding of the scriptures? Are the priests and ministers of various different churches there by placing themselves on the same level as God's Word? There are piles upon piles of books written, expounding on various different aspects of God's word. So many that there are entire book stores dedicated as "Christian" book stores. Does this not suggest that there are many who believe they need aid in understanding the scriptures? The authors who write such books, are they placing themsleves on the same level as God's Word?

Even those in bible times recognized that aid was necessary.

Nehemiah 8:8 "And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the law of the [true] God, it being expounded, and there being a putting of meaning [into it]; and they continued giving understanding in the reading."
Acts 8:30,31 "Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: "Do you actually know what you are reading?" 31 He said: "Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?

Would I be able to understand the truth of the scriptures without the aid of the WTS. Possibly, but it would have taken me several life times. They have provided years upon years of research at my fingertips. Certainly I have gained a far greater understanding than I ever did attending numerous churches. Recognizing that aid is needed does not place those who render aid on the same level as God's word. I am sure Philip was not try to place himself on the same level as God's word, niether were Jesh´u·a and Ba´ni and She·re·bi´ah, Ja´min, Ak´kub, Shab´be·thai, Ho·di´ah, Ma·a·sei´ah, Ke·li´ta, Az·a·ri´ah, Jo´za·bad, Ha´nan, Pe·la´iah, even the Levites, when explaining the scriptures to the Israelites.

[jujubea]

For over two years I worked with a JW who admitted to me that all the scripture I had shown him made sense to him when I explained it to him but he still refuse to convert. If he converted he would loose all his friends because they would kick him out of the Kingdom Hall and when that happened he would loose his wife because she had told him what to believe and she would never concede her power to determine his faith. The only thing I could conclude was that Johnny would rather go to Hell than to suffer the wrath of his wife and mother-in-law. Others that have come to my door over the years always leave, shaking their heads while claiming they would send an Elder back to talk to me, the invisible elder has yet to show up but the Witnesses have ceased to visit. The only way I get to speak to any of them now is to get on my walker and get out to the street before they leave my neighbor's house and then they just tell me they have been forbidden to speak to me because I'm a heritic.

I believe that the never visible elder has decided that I'm dangerous, what with the way I go straight to the scriptures. For those of you that care to dig that deeply, take heart, I have never blown any parts of my body off by learning and applying the scriptures to my everyday life, yet anyway.

Bill, as is the case with many other religions, there are some Witnesses who have a greater understanding of the scriptures than others. It sounds to me as though your friend Jonny is one who has never delved to far into research, proving to himself, the truth. For this reason he likely did not know how to respond to your queries and objections, and had not desire to look into it. This is not to say that there are not answers.

When we go out in the preaching work, it is not to argue with people. Rather our aim is to teach. You have made it abbundantly clear that you have no desire to learn from Jehovah's Witnesses. Why then, would we bother to waist our time.

Likely whoever it was that called on you, when relating it to an elder, would have related your demeanor, your arguments, etc. From what you have said, I am sure an elder would likewise conclude that you have no desire to learn anything from us. So again, why waist our time. There are those who do want to learn. We would rather consentrate on them.

There is an older man who I call on every now and again. He has many arguments, many questions. Everytime I answer a question, he has no come back, so he switches the topic, asks another question. There is nothing I have not answered, but everytime I come by he has the same questions, same objections. He has no real desire to learn. He does not want to accept the answers. Yet, if we are on his street, he wants us to call on him.

You strike me as a similar personality. Quite likely the brothers gave you answers but you did not like the answers given. After a while we relize there is just no point in continuing to give the same answers over and over agian.

However, if you like I would be happy to tackle your scriptural questions.

[Sold Out]

Jujubea - I didn't write this....my pastor did. I apologize if I didn't reference that in the subject line...I meant to.

But you are wrong about the first point (Matt 3:1-3). I had a Jehovah's Witness say it was speaking of Jesus. When I showed her the scripture in her bible...her jaw dropped. She had no answer.

I'd say you shouldn't be so quick to shoot it down unless you try these.

[Teke]

An Easter Orthodox would address a JW on their denial of the first ecumenical council of Nicea which defined the Trinity. Although, ironically they claim to believe in council of scripture. Why would they not accept the council of those who gave them the scriptures.

Then there is the matter of Arian heresy which they uphold as their founder did, who leaned toward the Arian beliefs as well as Seventh Day Adventist.

That is what I would address them on before any scriptures. And if then we where to address scripture, I'd be sure it is the same translation we are using and not one that only they use. ie. NWT

There are many whose purpose with scripture is not Jesus Christ. There is no other purpose of scripture than Jesus Christ and true worship of God. Holy scripture is part of the tradition of the Church, used in worship to God.

[jujubea]

Jujubea - I didn't write this....my pastor did. I apologize if I didn't reference that in the subject line...I meant to.

But you are wrong about the first point (Matt 3:1-3). I had a Jehovah's Witness say it was speaking of Jesus. When I showed her the scripture in her bible...her jaw dropped. She had no answer.

I'd say you shouldn't be so quick to shoot it down unless you try these.

Perhapps you miss understood me. I was not saying (Matthew 3:1-3) is not speaking of Jesus. It is. What I am saying is that simply because in Isaiah it sounds as though Jehovah is being spoken of, where as in Matthew it is Jesus, does not mean they are one and the same person. Other scriptures make it clear that Jehovah accomplishes and fulfills the scriptures through Jesus.

There are also prophecies given which speak of it being David, yet Jesus is the fulfiller of it. This does not mean that David is Jesus. (Ez.34:23,24)

S.O., I am one of Jehovha's Witnesses

[jujubea]

An Easter Orthodox would address a JW on their denial of the first ecumenical council of Nicea which defined the Trinity. Although, ironically they claim to believe in council of scripture. Why would they not accept the council of those who gave them the scriptures.

Then there is the matter of Arian heresy which they uphold as their founder did, who leaned toward the Arian beliefs as well as Seventh Day Adventist.

That is what I would address them on before any scriptures. .

You cannot address these beliefs without the use of scripture.

And if then we where to address scripture, I'd be sure it is the same translation we are using and not one that only they use. ie. NWT

Not a problem.

The first councel of Nicea was in 325 C.E., over two hundred years after the last of the scriptures were penned. They cannot be considered "those who gave the scriptures."

FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.

Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in TheEarlyChurch: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; ... his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace ... It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”

What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The EncyclopædiaBritannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed ... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ ... Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”

Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says AShortHistoryofChristianDoctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.

None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?

FurtherDevelopment

AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.

That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. TheEncyclopediaAmericana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”

TheAthanasianCreed

THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity ... The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”

Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. TheNewEncyclopædiaBritannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. ... The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”

So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In OriginandEvolutionofReligion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”

"Arian heresy". Your right we don't adhere to the teaching of the Trinity. But then niether do the scriptures.