How to Deal with a Jehovah's Witness

[Teke]

So what you are saying is that the Church trumps scripture?

The dogma of the Church (which includes the tradition of scripture), like God, never changes.

From an Orthodox perspective, there simply is, no such thing as dogmatic development. What there is, of course, is ever new, more detailed and comprehensive explanations elaborated in defense of one and the same faith -- responding, each time, to a particular context, a particular controversy etc. But it is one and the same faith that has been believed from the beginning -- the continuity of the correct interpretation of Scripture.

And for this reason, the Councils, as Fr. John Meyendorff pointed out, never formally endorsed any aspect of theology as dogma which is not a direct (and correct) interpretation of the history of God described in Scripture: only those aspects were defined as dogma which pertain directly to the Gospel.

[jujubea]

I'll attempt to explain this in a simple manner though it should be grasped in an ontological sense of understanding.

I accept that Jesus prayed without ceasing as scripture tells us to do. And that the prayer He is praying on the cross, Psalm 22:1, is on behalf of humanity, as He prays it while He is in the human state of being at that time..

Sorry Teke, It just doesn't make any sense to me. For Jesus to pray to himslef makes no sense. For him to ask himself why he has forsaken himself, makes even less sense.
I can understand why some feel that Jesus was simply setting the example for us. However, at times his prayers were not for the bennefit of others but for himself; such as the one just prior to expiring. If you are God, you do not need to pray to yourself.
Jesus himself said that he had a God.
John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God."
(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.
Jesus is not part of a "Godhead", rather his head or the one he looks to, and who has authority over him, is God.

To answer your question on how He can be a third party acting on behalf of the two (God and man) is understood in His Person. He is both unlike and alike as the two He represents. As He is not only human, but also God...

There are a number of places where legal terms are used with reference to Jesus. One is that of Mediator of the "new covenenant". A mediator of a legal agreement does so as an impartial thrid party. We have the example of Moses who was the mediator of the first covenant. He represented Jehovah God before the nation of Israel. He was a third party. Likewise Jesus is a third party who represented God before the people.
Another place where legal terms are employed are at John 8:17,18
" Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."
Jesus is giving a legal basis for why his testimony should be considered as true. Because he was not the only one who bore witness, but his Father was a second witness to the things he was stating. If Jesus were simply a different aspect of the same being, namely God, this statement as a legal argument could not be made.

God is the great Physician of mankind. In His wisdom He came an partook of humanity by the Incarnation, to heal humanity. As one of the fathers wrote, "what is not assumed is not healed". And so God assumed our state of being (humanity) to heal it....

There are no scriptures that say that God took on humanity, flesh, became man, etc. They do say that the Logos, became flesh and dwelt among mankind. This is why "Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."
Who is he pleading our case to? His Father, Jehovah God.
Heb.3:1-6 " Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus. 2He was faithful to the One that made him such, as Moses was also in all the house of that One. 3 For the latter is counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who constructs it has more honor than the house. 4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God. 5 And Moses as an attendant was faithful in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterwards, 6but Christ [was faithful] as a Son over the house of that One. We are the house of that One, if we make fast our hold on our freeness of speech and our boasting over the hope firm to the end."

So when you picture in your mind Christ hanging on the cross and what He 'looked like', your picturing what humanity looked like to God. And God being in the Person of Christ, was the only way to heal humanity.

I'm afraid we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

The Arc and other things were obviously what was necessary for that time. As I stated above, it is in the relation. Even your body, as scripture demonstrates in the care of it both living and dead, is a relic of God's. Which is why EO do not agree with cremation of the body, as it is seen as desecrating a holy relic of God's. ie. your body is a temple

Another example would be
Act 5:12-15
Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Act 19:11 ¶ And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Nowadays no priest of Apostolic succession serves at the altar without a special cloth with relics of the saints sewn in them (antimis or antimension )..

There are no accounts of the Apostles bodies being used after their death. The abilities of Paul and others were from holy spirit, not from any magic contained in their body or clothing . Therefore, any abilities a follower of Christ might desire or want would come through God's holy spirit, not from pieces of dead persons, or their clothing.

On a world wide scale, you can't say that for certain and neither can I. As we do not know all the laws of other countries. What I posted to you on this was something that developed from experience and necessity.

Most countries recognize legal documentation. If the Churches name is on the property, it seems rather ludicrous to suggest that they would need to worry about one of their representatives passing it on as an inheritance. You cannot pass on what does not belong to you. Is it possible that some countries do not accept legal documentation of land titles? I suppose it is possible. Unlikely, but possible.

When Jesus is on the mount of Transfiguration and the disciples see Moses and Elijah, do you believe they are seeing other gods. I don't think you do and neither does anyone else.

What has the transfiguration and those who were present in vision, have to do with who one should pray to?

Far from being a prohibition against using these terms under any circumstances, it is a warning not to use them undeservedly. Both terms are applied to men in the NT. "Father" is used in Luke 16:24, 1 Cor. 4:15, and Col. 3:21. In the earliest Christian communities, this term was applied to bishops and presbyter, because they represent the Father in the Church. "Teacher" is used in John 3:10, Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph 4:11, and 2 Tim. 1:11.

There is a difference between stating what a person is or their abilities and addressing them by titles. For example Abraham was a forefather. In the parable at Luke 16:24 he is labeled as such, This is not a religious title. In 1Cor.4:15 Paul is speaking of the relationship that has developed between himself and those that he taught, but he was never addressed as “Father”. Colossians is speaking of literal fathers and how they should treat their children. It has nothing to do with religious titles.
John , Acts, Eph, 2 Tim, and 1 Cor. Are speaking of people abilities, not any titles they held. 1Cor. 12:28 “And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. “
None received the title of “different tongues” or “powerful works,” any more than they received a title of “teacher" or "prophet." I am not saying that there are not those who take the lead in the congregation so far as teaching and preaching, however they are not set aside having special titles, dress, etc. All were to be brothers.

We are all equal in God's eyes and we should build unity among ourselves and not division. That we are all on equal ground is evident in things like baptism, prayer and worship. When you come right down to it, you and I know as much as a new born babe does about these things of God. We may think that we articulate and express them verbally better than a new born babe, but that is a matter of our own personal perception.

Agreed

[Teke]

Juju, can you document that what you are proposing is what the Church has always taught and believed from Jesus and the Apostles onward to date?

If not, why do you believe it?

[Teke]

There are no accounts of the Apostles bodies being used after their death. The abilities of Paul and others were from holy spirit, not from any magic contained in their body or clothing . Therefore, any abilities a follower of Christ might desire or want would come through God's holy spirit, not from pieces of dead persons, or their clothing.

Perhaps you could explain what "grace" means to a JW and what, if any operation that has with salvation and how you relate it to Christ and/or God.

What has the transfiguration and those who were present in vision, have to do with who one should pray to?

What does the Transfiguration mean to you?
Do you believe that all in heaven and earth worship God together?

There is a difference between stating what a person is or their abilities and addressing them by titles. For example Abraham was a forefather. In the parable at Luke 16:24 he is labeled as such, This is not a religious title. In 1Cor.4:15 Paul is speaking of the relationship that has developed between himself and those that he taught, but he was never addressed as “Father”. Colossians is speaking of literal fathers and how they should treat their children. It has nothing to do with religious titles. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
John , Acts, Eph, 2 Tim, and 1 Cor. Are speaking of people abilities, not any titles they held. 1Cor. 12:28 “And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. “
None received the title of “different tongues” or “powerful works,” any more than they received a title of “teacher" or "prophet." I am not saying that there are not those who take the lead in the congregation so far as teaching and preaching, however they are not set aside having special titles, dress, etc. All were to be brothers.

Agreed

Your speaking according to your "structural authority" of your denomination. Individuals joined decide their structural authority or which structural authority (religion) they place themselves under, if any.

If we go all the way in your direction, following it to the conclusion, why have any religion at all. Then there would certainly be no differences.

[oppiweb]

When dealing with a JW, I just ask them to explain John 6:45 to me.

There version of the Bible looks like this :

"It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by by Jehovah. Everyone that has heard from the Farther and has learned comes to me"

The more they try to explain this one verse, the more they see for themselves that Jesus is to be their Teacher and that He is therefore also God!

[Sold Out]

Why do you think the Pharisees/Jews wanted to kill Jesus?

[jujubea]

Why do you think the Pharisees/Jews wanted to kill Jesus?

John 11:47 "Consequently the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the San´he·drin together and began to say: "What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? 48 If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." 49 But a certain one of them, Ca´ia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: "YOU do not know anything at all, 50 and YOU do not reason out that it is to YOUR benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed." 51 This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one. 53 Therefore from that day on they took counsel to kill him.

[Sold Out]

John 11:47 "Consequently the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the San´he·drin together and began to say: "What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? 48 If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." 49 But a certain one of them, Ca´ia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: "YOU do not know anything at all, 50 and YOU do not reason out that it is to YOUR benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed." 51 This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one. 53 Therefore from that day on they took counsel to kill him.

"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:32,33

[jujubea]

"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:32,33

"the Pharisees said: 'This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el´ze·bub, the ruler of the demons.'" Matthew 12:24

Simply because the Pharisees made assertions, did not make them true or correct. In John 10:34-36 Jesus refuted their accusations of blashpemy as well as their accusation that he called himself God.

[Sold Out]

"

Simply because the Pharisees made assertions, did not make them true or correct. In John 10:34-36 Jesus refuted their accusations of blashpemy as well as their accusation that he called himself God.

Scripture to back this up please.

[RSiscoe]

"the Pharisees said: 'This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el´ze·bub, the ruler of the demons.'" Matthew 12:24

Simply because the Pharisees made assertions, did not make them true or correct. In John 10:34-36 Jesus refuted their accusations of blashpemy as well as their accusation that he called himself God.

Jujubea,

To you accept the teaching of the apostles, as contained in the Bible, as authoritative?

[jujubea]

Jujubea,

To you accept the teaching of the apostles, as contained in the Bible, as authoritative?

Yes, I consider 2 Tim. 3:16-17 " All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." To be true and correct.

[jujubea]

Scripture to back this up please.

?? I sited the scripture.

[jujubea]

Perhaps you could explain what "grace" means to a JW and what, if any operation that has with salvation and how you relate it to Christ and/or God.




What does the Transfiguration mean to you?
Do you believe that all in heaven and earth worship God together?



Your speaking according to your "structural authority" of your denomination. Individuals joined decide their structural authority or which structural authority (religion) they place themselves under, if any.

If we go all the way in your direction, following it to the conclusion, why have any religion at all. Then there would certainly be no differences.

The original point was that Jesus himself was the one who said all Christians were to be brothers and not to take on titles.

[jujubea]

When dealing with a JW, I just ask them to explain John 6:45 to me.

There version of the Bible looks like this :

"It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by by Jehovah. Everyone that has heard from the Farther and has learned comes to me"

The more they try to explain this one verse, the more they see for themselves that Jesus is to be their Teacher and that He is therefore also God!

If we have taken note of what Jehovah taught through the prophets, we will recognize that Jesus is the messiah of which they prophesied, and come to him. You cannot approach God, except through his high priest and mediator, Jesus Christ.

Jehovah taught people throughout the centuries through Abraham, Noah, Moses, Isaiah, Paul, Peter and all the other persons who bore witness about him. As Hebrews 1:1 points out "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son,."

Anyone who listened to the prophets, was taught by Jehovah, the same is true of those who listen to his Son.