PDA

View Full Version : Is there any danger in believing in the pre-trib rapture?



Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 05:59 AM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.

quiet dove
Sep 11th 2007, 06:07 AM
Let me just ask this to help me better understand and not have to read all over to figure it out, which are you. Post trib, amil, or p preterist. So I dont misunderstand where you are coming from.

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 06:12 AM
Let me just ask this to help me better understand and not have to read all over to figure it out, which are you. Post trib, amil, or p preterist. So I dont misunderstand where you are coming from.

I am post trib but that shouldn't matter in this thread. I am looking to hear from anyone no matter what position they have concerning any possible dangers there are in believing in pre-trib. Hopefully someone will post that can explain it better than I did in the other thread.

quiet dove
Sep 11th 2007, 06:19 AM
I am post trib but that shouldn't matter in this thread. I am looking to hear from anyone no matter what position they have concerning any possible dangers there are in believing in pre-trib. Hopefully someone will post that can explain it better than I did in the other thread.

No, I didnt ask because of that, but just so I could understand your views better.

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 07:15 AM
No, I didnt ask because of that, but just so I could understand your views better.

******


Ok.

Duane Morse
Sep 11th 2007, 08:27 AM
I think the only real danger is if you are counting on being raptured out and it does not happen the way you expect.
You may lose faith and falter, or worse.

The same danger is not present with post-tribbers, since we expect to go through the trib anyway.

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 08:31 AM
I think the only real danger is if you are counting on being raptured out and it does not happen the way you expect.
You may lose faith and falter, or worse.

The same danger is not present with post-tribbers, since we expect to go through the trib anyway.

Do you think there is any chance that Satan could exploit that belief and cause some possible deception? I am worried that the Antichrist could provide a very real and similar imitation of a rapture to satisfy someone.

Steven3
Sep 11th 2007, 08:36 AM
Hi Naphal
I don't know if these count as "dangers", but problems I see would include:

1. simply not reading the Bible correctly. I've just done a large post (in the thread Why a rapture? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=99519&highlight=rapture) started by Lellison) picking up Lou M's comment on apantesis. Search for apantesis and it should come up. The bottom line is that 1Thess4;17, and the whole rapture-back-to-heaven idea is based on a misreading of the word "meet", which doesn't allow the "meet and then turn round and go back" idea.

2. the second problem might be that a lot of people think, oh, lets not preach to my neigbor or workmate, we'll wait for the rapture then he'll have 30 days, 3 1/2 years, etc to repent and be converted.

3. the third problem might be that people think, well Christ is not interested in the earth, he's going to take us to heaven and then blow the world up. So all those prophecies about the earth being full of God's glory, full of knowledge of the Lord, won't come true.

4. the fourth problem might be that "false messiahs" can take advantage of the "invisible coming" idea. Christ's coming is only known to an elite initiated into the mystery. Yet Christ said if someone comes and says 'he is in secret chambers' don't listen, don't go out.

5. The other problem is that these 'Left Behind' films and books are really tacky. But I don't suppose that counts as a scriptural objection ;)

S

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 08:38 AM
5. The other problem is that these 'Left Behind' films and books are really tacky. But I don't suppose that counts as a scriptural objection ;)


lol

Personally number 4 is my strongest concern but I see your point in the rest.

Duane Morse
Sep 11th 2007, 09:13 AM
Do you think there is any chance that Satan could exploit that belief and cause some possible deception? I am worried that the Antichrist could provide a very real and similar imitation of a rapture to satisfy someone.
If the belief is false, he is already exploiting it.

But I doubt that the anti-Christ could provide any imitation that could be truly believed.

Paul_born_again
Sep 11th 2007, 02:26 PM
Is there any danger in believing in the pre-trib rapture?

I personally think so, but only if a person's belief it so strong that they refuse to even consider another viewpoint. And this is multiplied when that person is the leader of a church, and preaches this to the congregation, and they do not investigate scripture themselves for the answers.

If someone has a belief, but admits that they may be wrong, I don't think theres any danger in that.

(This can also be applied to other end-times teachings as well, but since we are speaking of pre-trib rapture here...)

For example, I have heard pastors preach about the horrible times in the end, and end their sermon with "but don't worry about any of this, because we won't be here", and then ends the sermon with no mention of the other viewpoints out there, and no mention that millions of people hold those other viewpoints.

I think it's important for all of us to humble ourselves before God, acknowledge that we don't have all the answers, and ask Him to help us not be deceived when this time comes.

HisLeast
Sep 11th 2007, 02:35 PM
I think the chief danger of any of the end time "doctrines" is their ability to utterly rob us love. We've seen it too many times here to count. Everything degenerating into cruel digs and potshots thinly vieled by subtle and pseudo-civilized language. There's probably more locked threads here than the rest of the forums combined, and in my short time here I believe I've seen the entire End Times sections shut down twice.

AlainaJ
Sep 11th 2007, 02:48 PM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.


I beleive in one second coming or Day of the Lord...so I guess you can say that is post trib- but to me the world is the tribulation we must overcome by faith in Jesus Christ.

Dangers in pre-trib theology......yes.

1. Christian's unprepared to suffer for their faith......

2. What happens if there is no "pre-trib" rapture? How many beleivers will lose thier faith? Just think...world wars, horrible terrors, persecution and no rapture? How many will doubt the Word of God and turn after the devil?

3. How about preparing for the end of days...survival etc......

Just some thoughts:hmm:

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 02:51 PM
I think the chief danger of any of the end time "doctrines" is their ability to utterly rob us love. We've seen it too many times here to count. Everything degenerating into cruel digs and potshots thinly vieled by subtle and pseudo-civilized language. There's probably more locked threads here than the rest of the forums combined, and in my short time here I believe I've seen the entire End Times sections shut down twice.

I don't think this is really related to the interest of this thread or even belongs here frankly. Can you address the pre-trib at all?

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2007, 03:01 PM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.If the doctrine were only about a pre-trib rapture, I would have no problem with it. But it comes in a whole dispensational, futurist wrapping which cannot be separated from it; including ideas for the millennial kingdom and how Israel must suffer the tribulation to be brought to faith and on and on. What ends up happening is that the very gospel is changed by its teachings to accomodate its Zionist leanings.

I also see a denial of who Christ is and what He accomplished in the 1st coming at work, when passages like Dan 9:24 are said to be unfulfilled. I think the doctrine puts blinders upon those reading the prophecies so that they do not see Christ but only Israel.

Then you have all the fantastic things that are said about a coming Antichrist which is pure fear-mongering and not edifying to the body of Christ who scripture says is to stand fast and not be moved by news headlines. The doctrine does not provoke us to good works borne of faith as we watch and eagerly await the Lord's return - loving the brethren. Instead some use the doctrine as their basis for evangelizing.

And like all heresies, it divides the body in the very Hope which ought to give us great unity.

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 03:07 PM
If the doctrine were only about a pre-trib rapture, I would have no problem with it. But it comes in a whole dispensational, futurist wrapping which cannot be separated from it; including ideas for the millennial kingdom and how Israel must suffer the tribulation to be brought to faith and on and on. What ends up happening is that the very gospel is changed by its teachings to accomodate its Zionist leanings.

I also see a denial of who Christ is and what He accomplished in the 1st coming at work, when passages like Dan 9:24 are said to be unfulfilled. I think the doctrine puts blinders upon those reading the prophecies so that they do not see Christ but only Israel.

Then you have all the fantastic things that are said about a coming Antichrist which is pure fear-mongering and not edifying to the body of Christ who scripture says is to stand fast and not be moved by news headlines. The doctrine does not provoke us to good works borne of faith as we watch and eagerly await the Lord's return - loving the brethren. Instead some use the doctrine as their basis for evangelizing.

And like all heresies, it divides the body in the very Hope which ought to give us great unity.



Can you add anything to the topic? None of this really applies. Most of what you said is severely of topic and I don't want the thread side tracked into those areas.

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2007, 03:16 PM
Can you add anything to the topic? None of this really applies. Most of what you said is severely of topic and I don't want the thread side tracked into those areas.You asked for what I considered to be dangers didn't you? Did you mean something other than what you said?

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 03:19 PM
I said to keep things about the pre-trib but you went in many other directions.

SueMerritt
Sep 11th 2007, 03:20 PM
There are two reasons why pre-trib is dangerous and these have been discussion here already.

1. Believers will not be prepared for what is ahead.

2. Believers might lose their faith because of not being prepared for what is ahead.

We need to prepare for what is ahead. That's why Jesus told us to keep watch and be ready over and over again.

anglican-cat
Sep 11th 2007, 03:25 PM
You asked for what I considered to be dangers didn't you? Did you mean something other than what you said?
I agree with MoGrace in regard to Zionist trappings and other Dispy problems, but I see where you are coming from with your question...If you believe as a matter of "personal piety" in a Pre-Trib position that is not an issue that will affect your salvation....heck.....sometimes I wish I could accept it. But that aside if that is what you mean by danger i believing in that then, no. I would say it is not an accurate reflection of scripture but I would not call it heresy. My 2 cents.

John146
Sep 11th 2007, 04:37 PM
I said to keep things about the pre-trib but you went in many other directions.

But pre-trib and dispensationalism go hand in hand and therefore I believe her post was completely on topic.

Joe King
Sep 11th 2007, 04:43 PM
The easiest way to deal with the rapture is this. PLAN ON BEING LEFT BEHIND.

anglican-cat
Sep 11th 2007, 04:51 PM
But pre-trib and dispensationalism go hand in hand and therefore I believe her post was completely on topic.
Yes I agree! BUT the question at hand seemed to be whether or not salvation is based on whether one believes in a Pre-Trib or not, there is in my humble opinion no basis for saying it is dangerous in that sense. There are always snares when w embrace an idea in conflict with scripture. All I say is not every mistake is full-blown heresy. I used to be Dispy...had a Ryrie and everything, I "outgrew" it. Having said that I trusted the Risen Savior for my salvation during this period and if I had dropped dead I think I would have been saved due to my faith in Jesus Christ and his finished work. In any event I read Late Great Planet Earth, :lol:, and like most Christians in our late 30' and early 40's a lot of use were either Dispy or influenced by it. Shoot, I remember when ANYTHING happened in the Middle East that touched Israel made me thing I better clean house!:)

HisLeast
Sep 11th 2007, 04:53 PM
1. Believers will not be prepared for what is ahead.
2. Believers might lose their faith because of not being prepared for what is ahead.

I keep hearing this but I can't believe it. Does holding to a post trib viewpoint make it any easier to actually bare tribulation? I personally think thats all talk and no walk. What's going to get someone through the worst years the earth has ever seen is a faith built on more than eschatological preference.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the last person I heard speak about eschatology from a pre-trib point of view is an ex-muslim Nigerian who was ostracized by his family and has scars all over his body BECAUSE
of his faith in Christ. He's allready seen more tribulation than a lot of Westerners combined... yet some with a post trib viewpoint would smugly state they're "more prepared" than he.

May we not be the generation that has to find out.

HisLeast
Sep 11th 2007, 04:55 PM
I don't think this is really related to the interest of this thread or even belongs here frankly. Can you address the pre-trib at all?

I did. Pre-trib is in a set of eschatological beliefs that I was speaking about communally.

AlainaJ
Sep 11th 2007, 04:59 PM
[quote=HisLeast;1378209]I keep hearing this but I can't believe it. Does holding to a post trib viewpoint make it any easier to actually bare tribulation? I personally think thats all talk and no walk. What's going to get someone through the worst years the earth has ever seen is a faith built on more than eschatological preference.

Well it is better then being deceived when the time comes. We in the western world have not truly sufferred for our faith yet....but the Bible says all who live Godly will face persecution.

Question? How many of you have sufferred for Godly living and your faith?:hmm:

How many of you have forsaken ALL and followed Jesus regardless of the costs?

Examples:
Forsoke family to follow Jesus?
Lost a job becuase of your faith or convictions?
Lost friends becuase you choose to live Godly and follow the Lord?

Alaina:)

John146
Sep 11th 2007, 05:00 PM
Yes I agree! BUT the question at hand seemed to be whether or not salvation is based on whether one believes in a Pre-Trib or not, there is in my humble opinion no basis for saying it is dangerous in that sense.

In the original question he didn't say anything about how it related to salvation. He just asked what dangers there might be in believing in the pre-trib doctrine. I don't personally agree with anyone who says someone would be in danger of losing their salvation as a result of believing in pre-trib. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Where is pre-trib or post-trib in that? I don't see it. Therefore, our eschatological beliefs don't determine our salvation. But they can affect the way we live our lives.

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2007, 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SueMerritt http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1378103#post1378103)
1. Believers will not be prepared for what is ahead.
2. Believers might lose their faith because of not being prepared for what is ahead.

I keep hearing this but I can't believe it. Does holding to a post trib viewpoint make it any easier to actually bare tribulation? I personally think thats all talk and no walk. What's going to get someone through the worst years the earth has ever seen is a faith built on more than eschatological preference.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the last person I heard speak about eschatology from a pre-trib point of view is an ex-muslim Nigerian who was ostracized by his family and has scars all over his body BECAUSE
of his faith in Christ. He's allready seen more tribulation than a lot of Westerners combined... yet some with a post trib viewpoint would smugly state they're "more prepared" than he.

May we not be the generation that has to find out.I don't believe it either but for a different reason. Mainly because the tribulation that the Church faces is one of spiritual deception. Not that we don't see real persecution taking place in the world against Christians - which has been true since its inception. But the NT warnings seem to be more about false prophets, teachers, brethren, Judaizers - who try to lead us astray from the faith. John's understanding of anti-christ was that there were many already in his day. What Revelation shows us is that this beast is satanically empowered and coupled to a false prophet to seduce his followers into idolatry. That is certainly going on today and increasing in the last 100 years as CHRISTIAN cults arise and prosper.

anglican-cat
Sep 11th 2007, 05:06 PM
In the original question he didn't say anything about how it related to salvation. He just asked what dangers there might be in believing in the pre-trib doctrine. I don't personally agree with anyone who says someone would be in danger of losing their salvation as a result of believing in pre-trib. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Where is pre-trib or post-trib in that? I don't see it. Therefore, our eschatological beliefs don't determine our salvation. But they can affect the way we live our lives.
I would agree with you 110%! In fact the problems in the Dispy system led me to reject it. But I have a confession....my Father-in-Law believes all that and I read his copy of the last Hal Lindsy book.....just for kicks!:)

Romulus
Sep 11th 2007, 05:47 PM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.

I don't believe there is a outright danger in believing in pre-trib doctrine in regards to salvation or harming of ones soul since it is simply believing that you will be with the Lord, but what I do believe is that it can promote a pessimistic worldview and perhaps an ineffectiveness(sometimes) in ones work for the Kingdom. I agree with Mograce2u that Dispensationalism as a whole can fall into this category as well. The belief that Jesus will return and take us physically with Him is in itself not dangerous, I would love if that would happen. Who wouldn't want to be with the Lord in heaven? Anyhow, the view that God will rescue us before He destroys this world can lead to a pessimistic worldview that no matter what we do the Gospel will not take hold of the nations and that the world will get wose and worse no matter what happens because scripture has prophecied that it will. It is like asking to run a race and realizing that even before you begin to run it, you will not win. In the big picture, yes we will witness and bring many to Christ, but the world as a whole will reject Him and the Church will always be a minority and we will fail in the great commission. To bring the Gospel to the nations.......not individuals. It CAN lead to the belief that we do not have to endure hardship because I will at anytime be raptured out of the world.

This belief is in my opinion contrary to the idea that the Gospel is able to convert the world and the Kingdom has been advancing with authority not because the newspaper says so, but because scripture says it will not fail. Christ is on the throne and is ruling from heaven today. I should live as if I will be here for the rest of my days and I must understand that the work I do today will effect generations. Every nation that is not under Christ's Lordship will eventually fall. I believe this for all nations as well as all other religions not bowing to the authority of Christ. It is not done by force such as a conquering army but by each believer in Christ living out the Gospel in Love and not being afraid to proclaim who we know. As more and more see and experience His love through us they will become part of the Kingdom, an intern they will be a witness to those around them, and so on and so on. Many have given up on this idea. There is a great saying I heard in my Church

We are not fighting for victory, but FROM victory!

Again, I don't believe all dispensationalists have this issue. Many do evangelize so well because they believe that the time is short. This in itself does advance the Kingdom as well so I do not wish to put anyone down.

Blessings!

Joe King
Sep 11th 2007, 05:56 PM
I now believe in a post-trib rapture because God says that the ones who endure during the time of great distress will reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Gard
Sep 11th 2007, 06:15 PM
As a recent convert to the post-trib point of view, i believe the greatest danger to the pre-trib belief is that when it doesn't happen, the faith of many believers will be shattered beyond repair.

HisLeast
Sep 11th 2007, 06:35 PM
As a recent convert to the post-trib point of view, i believe the greatest danger to the pre-trib belief is that when it doesn't happen, the faith of many believers will be shattered beyond repair.

Based on what evidence? Are post-trib believer's "tougher" some how for holding a pre-trib view?

Romulus
Sep 11th 2007, 06:38 PM
As a recent convert to the post-trib point of view, i believe the greatest danger to the pre-trib belief is that when it doesn't happen, the faith of many believers will be shattered beyond repair.

Since the pre-trip rapture doctrine is based on the iminent rapture of the faithful, if it doesn't happen how would you know that it hasn't happened? If you are expecting to be raptured you are waiting for it and you will wait for it even your whole life. You have faith. Then you will be with the Lord anyway when you die not giving up that the the rapture is iminent, so how could you know that it would not happen? Someone who believes this will not give up on it since that is the doctrine.

Am I making sense here?

The only thing that would shatter this belief is if the Great Tribulation begins and the rapture has not happened. I believe that is what you are referring to. Even if this is so, prophecy is still being fulfilled in front of you , so whether pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib the rapture will happen. That they are sure of. Would you give up your faith knowing that the rapture would now (during the tribulation) happen within a 7 year period. I would think it would be strengthened even more now that you know it is about to happen rather then now when it could happen at any time.

Just my opinion seeing through the eyes of a pre-trib believer(I used to be one). I am a full-preterist so my rapture views are forbidden......:(

Oh well! ;)

Lighthope
Sep 11th 2007, 09:38 PM
The biggest danger of believing in a pre-trib rapture is that people who believe in such will not be ready to survive the Tribulation. They won't have supplies ready, they may not recognise some of the signs because they aren't looking.

Hope for a pre-trib, but prepare for a post-trib.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - Priests would make great husbands. They already took vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience!

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 09:46 PM
The biggest danger of believing in a pre-trib rapture is that people who believe in such will not be ready to survive the Tribulation. They won't have supplies ready, they may not recognise some of the signs because they aren't looking.

Hope for a pre-trib, but prepare for a post-trib.



Yes that's a great way to word it. I do find it is disconcerting that pre-tribbers tend to be solely focused on this rapture by Jesus but put almost no effort or study into what occurs in the tribulation obviously because they are certain they won't be here for it. That's very dangerous IMO. They know little to nothing about Who or what the AC and what he does despite so many warnings and descriptions.

anglican-cat
Sep 11th 2007, 09:57 PM
Yes that's a great way to word it. I do find it is disconcerting that pre-tribbers tend to be solely focused on this rapture by Jesus but put almost no effort or study into what occurs in the tribulation obviously because they are certain they won't be here for it. That's very dangerous IMO. They know little to nothing about Who or what the AC and what he does despite so many warnings and descriptions.
This is a good way to put it. When I was Dispie I thought about my salvation and Christ, but I was consumed with the Rapture! You know? It was like I "saw" it coming in every newspaper headline and in the news. I almost looked forward to bad news since I thought a bunch of bad stuff would....make Him "hurry" and come back. As I look back on it older and hopefully wiser, I realize what negative and unhealthy mindset that is for a child of God. Good or evil...we are saved, we are sealed....we are His! I still believe He will come for us but in an hour we do not expect....until then the best I can do as a Christian man is "Occupy till I come."

Vickilynn
Sep 12th 2007, 01:55 AM
The biggest danger of believing in a pre-trib rapture is that people who believe in such will not be ready to survive the Tribulation. They won't have supplies ready, they may not recognise some of the signs because they aren't looking.

Shalom,

Actually, that's a wide generality that does not apply to individuals.

Some Pre-tribbers are very prepared with supplies, watching the signs, but still praying for a pre-trib rapture.


Hope for a pre-trib, but prepare for a post-trib.

Yup, that's wisdom.

Bottom line, I don't believe there are any "dangers" associated with believing in the Pre-Trib Rapture because if we're wrong, G-d is able to sustain us. Don't sell your fellow Believers so short and judge them so harshly.

Nihil Obstat
Sep 12th 2007, 02:27 AM
"Hope for a pre-trib"? If you believe that Jesus taught post-trib (and He did), then why put your hope in something that will not happen? We are to put our hope in that which is sure to come. The biblical definition of "hope" isn't wishing; it's faith (Heb. 11:1). I have faith that we will be victorious through the great tribulation. It's impossible to hope for something that you are unsure of; to fall into that is called presumption. You cannot prepare for a post-trib while "hoping" for a pre-trib; you may stock food and water, but your heart will not be prepared. This is a stinging, sobering truth, but it is truth, and the sooner that we get revelation of this, the better prepared we will be for the coming days - why? - because our hope will only then be secured in that which will surely come to pass.

Vickilynn
Sep 12th 2007, 03:21 AM
"Hope for a pre-trib"? If you believe that Jesus taught post-trib (and He did), then why put your hope in something that will not happen? We are to put our hope in that which is sure to come. The biblical definition of "hope" isn't wishing; it's faith (Heb. 11:1). I have faith that we will be victorious through the great tribulation. It's impossible to hope for something that you are unsure of; to fall into that is called presumption. You cannot prepare for a post-trib while "hoping" for a pre-trib; you may stock food and water, but your heart will not be prepared. This is a stinging, sobering truth, but it is truth, and the sooner that we get revelation of this, the better prepared we will be for the coming days - why? - because our hope will only then be secured in that which will surely come to pass.

Shalom,

Have you never heard the adage....

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best? :hmm:

I say, "Prepare for the worst and pray for the best!" ;)

Our hope is in JESUS, not in whether we prepare with food or water or whether there is a pre-trib rapture or not. Our hope should be in JESUS alone, that He will sustain us, no matter what happens.

Steven3
Sep 12th 2007, 11:23 AM
Hi Lighthope :)
They won't have supplies readySupplies? What kind of supplies?

Surely oil in our lamps is the best preparation for welcoming Christ's return to earth?

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Sep 12th 2007, 11:31 AM
Hi Vickilynn :)
Our hope is in JESUS, not in whether we prepare with food or water or whether there is a pre-trib rapture or not. Our hope should be in JESUS alone, that He will sustain us, no matter what happens.

Well said. I used to work with a Mormon who stockpiled a years canned food in his cellar. If we want to stockpile grace with Christ distributing those cans down at the homeless shelter would be more use.

When Christ comes back it's the servant who has been too busy doing showy works to give a cup of cool water that's in trouble.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

What Christians need to worry about is not "the tribulation" (verse references???) but Christ himself.
God bless
Steven

the rookie
Sep 12th 2007, 01:46 PM
In regards to an earlier part of this discussion, it is helpful to distinguish between dispensationalism and futurism / premillennialism. Often the two are confused and blended in unhelpful ways. Seeing a plan / function / or future for the nation of Israel, a future Antichrist, and and a future reign of Jesus on the earth are of the latter, not exclusive to dispensationalism. If one finds those viewpoints harmful or potentially dangerous, then start another thread. Also, the use of the term "Dispy" is unhelpful and unproductive - let's not go there.

In regards to the OP, I actually don't agree with most of what has been posted regarding dispensationalism. Most assume the greatest "harm" in the theology is the way in which it leaves the body of Christ unprepared for the coming "shaking of all that can be shaken...that the things which cannot be shaken may remain" (Heb. 12:28; Hag. 2:6). While that is a concern, I think that dispensationalism theologically has graver implications that most do not think about.

#1. It creates a false dichotomy between the church and Israel related to the plans and promises of God.

While there is clearly a coming fulfillment of covenent promises of God to Abraham, Moses, and David (not discussing for the moment individual promises that God made to Phineas, the Sons of Zadok, Zerubbabel, etc.) particularly related to Israel's function; this does not negate the desire of God to graft Gentiles into one olive tree and birth one new man from two. The mystery of how both can be fully realized in the brilliance of God's plan is one largely unexplored by dispensational thinkers - leaving little thought to how Gentiles will actually provoke Jews to jealousy prior to the second coming.

#2. It creates a false dichotomy between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

This is the heart of the error related to the "dual plan" - a false dichotomy that unintentionally divides the scriptures and, in the name of context, relegates one testament (and the gospels and Revelation) to the Jews while leaving the epistles to the Gentile church. Thus a pre-trib thinker must wrestle with the fact that the deeper ramifications of their theology (beyond, "we won't be here for judgment") leave the Sermon on the Mount for the Jews and make those passages irrelevant to the Gentile church. This false dicotomy also subtly opens the door for God to act one way towards humans in one time frame while acting in another manner elsewhere in history, which leads to the next point:

#3. It creates a fractured view of the person and leadership of God

By imagining that the church leaving the earth is the best we can hope for related to the mercy of God and His commitment to the nations is to accidentally disconnect from the brilliance and perfection of His leadership in involving the church in His end-time drama related to His plan for mercy and judgment. The best is yet to come for the church in the soveriegnty of God because He wants to do more than judge the earth, He wants to save it. Thus the involvement of the church is critical - but there are key principles of God's leadership that are overlooked if you simply imagine that we will be gone during the most dramatic time in history.

I'm out of time - I'll explain more later.

third hero
Sep 12th 2007, 02:22 PM
Based on what evidence? Are post-trib believer's "tougher" some how for holding a pre-trib view?

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Matthew 24:10

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; -2 Thessalonians 2:3

What do these verses have in common? One fact, there will be those who will first proclaim themselves to be Christian who will then, at some point, turn from the faith, hate, and betray each other. This is known as the apostacy, or the great falling away, that precedes the revealing of the man of sin.

When one takes out the thought of Christ coming in to rescue us from persecution, that causes a person, like myself, to seek a clearer and more meaningful relationship with God. We do so for the simple purpose of realizing that without God's help, this statement would come true:

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: Matthew 24:22a

We understand the need to not only have a firm relationship with Lord Jesus, but also to help our brothers and sisters develope a better relationship with Him as well. When we realize that we are the TARGETS of persecution and great distress, the whole "Great Tribulation" comes into a clearer focus.

I am by no means saying that the pre-trib model is heresy, like full-preterism for example. What I am saying is that unless one realizes the dangers present in that doctrine, that someone may fall victim to the sways of the enemy, especially if the Lord does not return according to the dispensational POV timeline.

Another note: As I have said before, and QD is one of my witnesses, it is not inherantly bad, or evil to believe in the pre-trib POV. I caution all who do so to understand that if they are wrong, that they need to be prepared to endure until the end, just like the rest of us. Whether one believes in pre-trib or post-trib, what matters is that we continue to seek Lord Jesus with all of our souls, hearts, minds, and strength until the time comes when we will all see Him coming on clouds of heaven, picking each and every one of us up.

Gard
Sep 12th 2007, 03:41 PM
Based on what evidence? Are post-trib believer's "tougher" some how for holding a pre-trib view?


I should have clarified my statement a little more. My evidence is nothing but human nature itself. There are many believers out there who do not dig into the Word on their own. they rely solely on what popular books and preachers (usually a televangelist) tells them. That makes their faith a very fragile thing because the foundation is not solid. Most popular preachers and ministers teach a pre-trib rapture. If or when the rapture does not happen, many of them will be scared enough and disappointed enough to walk away from the faith. They will say, "if the Rapture was a lie, then why should i believe the rest?" People every day walk away from God simply because their prayer was not answered. Imagin how much more devestating it would be for them when something as fundamental as a pre-trib rapture fails to materialize and they find themselves in a world decimated by the wrath. Because their faith depends on what someone told them rather than God's Word, it will be easy for them to turn their backs and follow a false messiah because he will tell them what they want to hear.

John68
Sep 12th 2007, 08:33 PM
How many post tribbers actually have enough supplies to get by 3 1/2 years IF it sould last that long. Thats ALOT of supplies! What if you have to hit the road and cant take all that stuff with you? I can see alot of these folks thinking they are all prepared and then freakin out(falling away) if the "survival plan" doesnt go right. Ill put my faith in Jesus and if I get killed early on then I will be with him that much quicker! Better yet- Pre Trib is OK by me! Either way -HIS will be done,not mine.

DIZZY
Sep 12th 2007, 09:04 PM
Do you think there is any chance that Satan could exploit that belief and cause some possible deception? I am worried that the Antichrist could provide a very real and similar imitation of a rapture to satisfy someone.

Only God can take a mans life from him.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So Satan can't send a deception of that kind.

Dizzy

ross3421
Sep 12th 2007, 09:05 PM
What will happen to all the preachers which are telling thier members not to worry God will be faithful and Rapture out his church but it does not occur?

Note as the time draws near one would think the teaching of the Rapture will increase.......


Also, do you think people read less of Revelation due to the fact they believe they will not be here anyway?

Mark.

Naphal
Sep 12th 2007, 09:08 PM
Only God can take a mans life from him.

That's not true. Man commits murder all the time.

Vickilynn
Sep 12th 2007, 09:17 PM
How many post tribbers actually have enough supplies to get by 3 1/2 years IF it sould last that long. Thats ALOT of supplies!

Shalom,

You'd be surprised. Yes, I know people who are making those plans.


What if you have to hit the road and cant take all that stuff with you? Trust the L-rd to lead.



I can see alot of these folks thinking they are all prepared and then freakin out(falling away) if the "survival plan" doesnt go right. Hmmm, I think that is left for G-d to judge. We cannot judge the hearts of other Believers.


Ill put my faith in Jesus and if I get killed early on then I will be with him that much quicker!Yes and other people put their faith and trust in Yeshua, but may make different preparations. We are not to judge or mock others.


Better yet- Pre Trib is OK by me! Either way -HIS will be done,not mine.His will be done. Best words I've seen! :idea:

DIZZY
Sep 12th 2007, 09:25 PM
As a recent convert to the post-trib point of view, i believe the greatest danger to the pre-trib belief is that when it doesn't happen, the faith of many believers will be shattered beyond repair.

What did you believe before you were converted?

Dizzy

Lou M.
Sep 13th 2007, 01:50 AM
Based on what evidence?

How about historical evidence?

Well does'nt pre-trib. teach that the Day of the Lord is imminent?

Did'nt Paul say something about those who taught such?

"Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God."
Now conserning the op, one of the dangers I see is that some when they have realised the difficulties of the previous passage of Scripture have sought to change the meanings of some words of the Scripture in an attempt to accommodate the doctrine.
In this continuing evolution of the doctrine the 'falling away' is made to mean the rapture of the church.

Naphal
Sep 13th 2007, 01:54 AM
How about historical evidence?

Well does'nt pre-trib. teach that the Day of the Lord is imminent?


Did'nt Paul say something about those who taught such?
"Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God."
Now conserning the op, one of the dangers I see is that some when they have realised the difficulties of the previous passage of Scripture have sought to change the meanings of some words of the Scripture in an attempt to accommodate the doctrine.
In this continuing evolution of the doctrine the 'falling away' is made to mean the rapture of the church.


I agree they are related.

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 02:08 AM
That's not true. Man commits murder all the time.


Matthew 10:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God controls the physical and the spiritual. When God takes His church believers all over the earth will disappear leaving only thier physical materials behind not the bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So our bodies change, Satan can't perform this miracle for he doesn't control the spirit. He may be a great deceiver but he can't copy this miracle. There would be bodies left everwhere, he'd have to do some pretty hard work getting rid of the bodies.

Man may commit murder but God is still in control of both body and soul.
If this wasn't true then God is a lair.http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon5.gif

Dizzy

jeffweeder
Sep 13th 2007, 02:12 AM
In this continuing evolution of the doctrine the 'falling away' is made to mean the rapture of the church.

Which wouldnt make any sense as Paul is saying our gathering to him-(which must mean rapture) wont happen until this apostasy and man of sin is revealed.
The apostasy paves the way for the man of sin to take his seat.
All through the NT you read of it.
Jesus said many shall fall away and betray and hate each other, love grows cold, "lawlessness " is increased....cherry ripe for the man of sin to decieve the world into thinking he is god. He tells them a lie, most believe.
The church is believing it too, and thats the apostasy.
Its only the church that possesses the truth to give the world hope, so if this caves in, i can understand that as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be the day the son of man is revealed. Gee, we must be gettings close.
Psalm 2 is the same.

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 02:13 AM
How about historical evidence?

Well does'nt pre-trib. teach that the Day of the Lord is imminent?


Did'nt Paul say something about those who taught such?
"Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God."
Now conserning the op, one of the dangers I see is that some when they have realised the difficulties of the previous passage of Scripture have sought to change the meanings of some words of the Scripture in an attempt to accommodate the doctrine.
In this continuing evolution of the doctrine the 'falling away' is made to mean the rapture of the church.

The falling away isn't talking about the rapture. I don't know where you get that from.

Dizzy

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 02:23 AM
Which wouldnt make any sense as Paul is saying our gathering to him-(which must mean rapture) wont happen until this apostasy and man of sin is revealed.
The apostasy paves the way for the man of sin to take his seat.
All through the NT you read of it.
Jesus said many shall fall away and betray and hate each other, love grows cold, "lawlessness " is increased....cherry ripe for the man of sin to decieve the world into thinking he is god. He tells them a lie, most believe.
The church is believing it too, and thats the apostasy.
Its only the church that possesses the truth to give the world hope, so if this caves in, i can understand that as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be the day the son of man is revealed. Gee, we must be gettings close.
Psalm 2 is the same.

Luke 17:25-27
25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Do you understand what this is talking about?

Dizzy

Saved!
Sep 13th 2007, 02:38 AM
Two ideas from this thread.

First, I am one of the ones that does fear for pre-tribbers if the post-tribbers are correct. The majority of my family, friends and acquaintances are pre-tribbers because that is all they have ever known and they think I am odd because I feel otherwise.

My concern is that they will not be careful about being deceived....that they will not keep their eyes open for the "Mark" or potential antichrist...that they will assume they are not Saved because they weren't raptured away from the tribulation....that they will be vulnerable to "whatever" trials they may face because they didn't prepare spiritually for possibility of being here during the tribulation, etc.

Second, I, too used to stock up on supplies so that I would be more prepared to take care of my family as we attempted to "ride out" the tribulation period. But, I spoke to a preacher who made me realize this: I can hoard up all that I want. But, when the time comes, and everyone is desperate, someone would certainly harm us to get our supplies...and I am certain someone would find out, it is unavoidable. But, I also realized something on my own....I can feasibly save up for my family, as well as find somewhere to escape and hide. But, what about my parents, brother and his family, aunts and uncles, friends...hungry children and strangers I don't know? I can't do it for everyone, nor can I leave any of them behind to fend for themselves. I'd be better off proclaiming my devotion to my Lord, sticking with my "people", losing my head right at the beginning and going on to my rest. That is my plan for now...and I'm OK with it.

Mograce2U
Sep 13th 2007, 02:48 AM
But what if this God-awful tribulation everybody is so worried about is not what we think at all, nor have to face? What if instead it is an unspecified period of time when Satan once again is able to deceive as he did in the 1st century? It seems to me that what the first Christians went through is likely to be what the last Christians will have to go through - when death was not the biggest problem they faced. Rather it was false prophets, false teachers, false brethren, false signs and wonders, heresies - all done in an attempt to lead us astray from the faith. If the whole world is gathered against the saints must it be to kill them?

Martyrdom has not stopped Christianity so far - rather persecution causes it to spread. Is not the whole world already trying to disenfranchise true faith even now? Christendom is more split than unified in our day on many fronts. Which sounds like Satan's little season of tribulation has begun to me...

jeffweeder
Sep 13th 2007, 02:49 AM
Do you understand what this is talking about?

Dizzy

talks about how peoples minds were continually on evil, didnt care for truth anymore.
They rejected the only righteous man left on earth.


What are your insights into it?

peace

BM5
Sep 13th 2007, 03:03 AM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.



Haven't read all the posts here so am only responding to you. I don't think there is any danger in believing in the pre-trib translation, but I would caution you not to be presumptious about being included in it. I think many will be left in stark consternation because of their presumption about God.

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 03:14 AM
How about historical evidence?

Well does'nt pre-trib. teach that the Day of the Lord is imminent?


Did'nt Paul say something about those who taught such?
"Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God."
Now conserning the op, one of the dangers I see is that some when they have realised the difficulties of the previous passage of Scripture have sought to change the meanings of some words of the Scripture in an attempt to accommodate the doctrine.
In this continuing evolution of the doctrine the 'falling away' is made to mean the rapture of the church.


Rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Day of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Revelation 3:3

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.


The rapture is a totally different event than to that of the Day of the Lord.

Dizzy

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 04:01 AM
talks about how peoples minds were continually on evil, didnt care for truth anymore.
They rejected the only righteous man left on earth.


What are your insights into it?

peace
In the days of Noah God had him build an ark an preach of destruction. No one believed, they were to busy with their worldly pleasures to contemplate what message God had given them through Noah. So when the floods came they were taken away and Noah and his family were left behind.

The same thing will happen again before the great tribulation Christ will
come and take His believers out of the world and leave the unbelievers behind.

Dizzy :idea:

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 04:11 AM
I now believe in a post-trib rapture because God says that the ones who endure during the time of great distress will reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Where is this verse?

Dizzy:hmm:

NightWatchman
Sep 13th 2007, 04:37 AM
Before the great tribulation Christ will
come and take His believers out of the world and leave the unbelievers behind.

Dizzy :idea:
Do you believe that if you are sinning at the moment of rapture,
that you will be left behind?
This seems to be a common belief, which is why I don't subscribe to this idea.

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 04:48 AM
Do you believe that if you are sinning at the moment of rapture,
that you will be left behind?
This seems to be a common belief, which is why I don't subscribe to this idea.

No!

I will be a sinner until the Lord takes me home, which will be the day of the Lord's rapture.

Just because I am a sinner doesn't mean I will be left behind. I believe in Jesus Christ and what He done for me on the cross. Doesn't the bible say if you believe you shall be saved? No attachments

Dizzy:D

My heart's Desire
Sep 13th 2007, 05:35 AM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.

I believe there is NO danger at all in believing in the pre-trib doctrine except for someone to "Not know Jesus as their LORD and Savior!" And this would apply to any time or with any doctrine.

Amazedgrace21
Sep 13th 2007, 06:36 AM
I imagine the dangers in believing in the the pre-trib rapture, and being wrong are different than not believing in it and being wrong..

From that standpoint, it would appear that were the ones who thought they were going to be raptured sooner than later..would suffer tremendous physical hardship..but were they to turn away from their faith as a result of their suffering, in the event a pretrib rapture did not occur, I would question it's authenticity to begin with.

However were the the pre-trib rapture to occur, then those left behind would be in dire straits..for being left behind, they would not acknowledge the Rapture having occured and in all probability be "in denial" and fully susceptible to the great deception.

I simply believe nothing can seperate us from Christ if we are genuinely his.

I also believe there are very specific prophetic events that will transpire in a sequence and magnitude there will eventually be no conceivable way anyone will be unable to recognize the wrath of God is "God's"..nor is there a darn thing anyone could do or prepare to escape and survive that..apart from God's intervention.

If we are to suffer as in persecution for anything during the Tribulation, it will be for our faith. If we are not suffering persecution..then that is not a "good thing" now AND THAT would be a very serious sign of danger IMHO..

If we are to suffer in any other way, it will be for our physical well being..and most everyone else will be in the same boat..what will set us apart from those are will be how we meet this suffering..will we persevere in spite of it or won't we.

jeffweeder
Sep 13th 2007, 07:15 AM
In the days of Noah God had him build an ark an preach of destruction. No one believed, they were to busy with their worldly pleasures to contemplate what message God had given them through Noah. So when the floods came they were taken away and Noah and his family were left behind.


YES


The same thing will happen again before the great tribulation Christ will
come and take His believers out of the world and leave the unbelievers behind.


The unbelievers were not left behind, Noah was.

Matt 13 tells you that the wicked are first bound and then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

2thess 1 promises you that the time will come when Jesus will come and bring justice, and all who have afflicted you and rejected the gospel will suffer eternal seperation. He does this on the day he comes to be glorified in all that believed the gospel and recieve them to himself.--rapture day.

Duane Morse
Sep 13th 2007, 07:28 AM
I guess it is all in the semantics.

To my way of thinking, the unbelievers were left behind and Noah was brought through - and forward.

The unbelievers were 'left behind' because they stopped (where they were), while Noah went on into the future (where he went).

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 07:54 AM
Hi My hearts disire, How true you are.
Dizzy

jeffweeder
Sep 13th 2007, 08:12 AM
. So when the floods came they were taken away and Noah and his family were left behind.



The same thing will happen again before the great tribulation Christ will
come and take His believers out of the world and leave the unbelievers behind.


Im a little confused, you said Noah -the righteous was left behind, then you said the unrighteous are left behind---This is not the same.

Steven3
Sep 13th 2007, 08:30 AM
Hello folks,
Please don't be upset with the following, it's only one person's perspective.

I responded to the OP (original post) with a couple of suggestions already - but, sorry to say (and I say this with respect of other people's sincere views) in reading the 3 simultaneous threads on the rapture on the forum I've come up with 2 more reservations to add:

6. a case of the hireling runs away?
Possible development of an unhealthy, even selfish, focus on us "escaping" tribulation rather than concern for our neighbors or eagerness and urgency to see Christ come back and wipe away every tear - which would start with solving famine, poverty, disease and war in the developing world.

7. possibility of mistaking the real Christ for the Antichrist?
Some of the characteristics people are describing of the Antichrist (eg appearing in Jerusalem) to me look alarmingly similar to genuine characteristics of the real Messiah. Likewise some of the characteristics of some understandings of the rapture (eg a secret preparation for a Heaven's Gate type departure), are alarmingly similar to what Christ said about not going out into the desert - "where the corpse-falsemessiah is there the vulture-followers will gather". Is there a chance of some Christians mistaking the real Christ for Antichrist because they've misread what Christ says about his return?



Anyway, to address the post title "I choose to be left behind":

I'm sorry to say this but if an angel appeared on my doorstep tomorrow and said "time to go, time to go and meet Christ in the air, and then onwards with him back to heaven for 30 days or 3 1/2 years" Thanks, but, sorry, I would not be interested.

Instead I would ask the angel for permission to spend the 30 days or 3 1/2 years here on earth, regardless of any "tribulation" (if that is scriptural) and I'll take my chances here. There's too much to do. If all the Christians are to be raptured upwards (not sideways) then it's even more needful that some of us stay behind to preach the Gospel and offer help to the suffering.

That's how I feel about it after having read most posts on all 3 threads.
God bless :)
Steven

Duane Morse
Sep 13th 2007, 08:43 AM
I'm sorry to say this but if an angel appeared on my doorstep tomorrow and said "time to go, time to go and meet Christ in the air, and then onwards with him back to heaven for 30 days or 3 1/2 years" Thanks, but, sorry, I would not be interested.

Instead I would ask the angel for permission to spend the 30 days or 3 1/2 years here on earth, regardless of any "tribulation" (if that is scriptural) and I'll take my chances here. There's too much to do. If all the Christians are to be raptured upwards (not sideways) then it's even more needful that some of us stay behind to preach the Gospel and offer help to the suffering.

That's how I feel about it after having read most posts on all 3 threads.
God bless :)
Steven
2co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Well, I agree, to a very certain extent.

third hero
Sep 13th 2007, 08:51 AM
But what if this God-awful tribulation everybody is so worried about is not what we think at all, nor have to face? What if instead it is an unspecified period of time when Satan once again is able to deceive as he did in the 1st century? It seems to me that what the first Christians went through is likely to be what the last Christians will have to go through - when death was not the biggest problem they faced. Rather it was false prophets, false teachers, false brethren, false signs and wonders, heresies - all done in an attempt to lead us astray from the faith. If the whole world is gathered against the saints must it be to kill them?

Martyrdom has not stopped Christianity so far - rather persecution causes it to spread. Is not the whole world already trying to disenfranchise true faith even now? Christendom is more split than unified in our day on many fronts. Which sounds like Satan's little season of tribulation has begun to me...

One problem with this notion.

The Great Tribulation is a specified period of time that has been outlined by Christ. It is mentioned both in the Gospels and in Revelation, at least twice. According to the words of Our Lord, this period will be unrivaled in human history, even eclipsing the Roman persecutions of the first century.

Since the Roman persecutions, we have had to deal with suffering that not only rivaled the Romans, but in some cases (Spanish Inquisition, for instance) trumped the Roman persecutions. There is a reason why a Lot of people believe that the RCC is part of the beast system. Study how the Catholic clergy executed people during the dark and middle ages andx you get an idea of the evil at play here. Impalings, which is actually worse than crucifixions, skinning people alive, burning them at the stake, and pulling them apart limb by limb are just some of the barbaric methods the RCC employed after they took over the Western Roman provinces. And yes, most of those slain wer Christians who did not bow to the universalism of the RCC.

So, you see, according to the historical records, Satan was very busy during the times where some would say that he was sealed up. His fingerprints are found throughout history, and there is not one moment that he was "sealed up away from the earth, that he may deceive the nations no more". From Mohammad and Islam in the 7th century, to the rise of the RCC, to the many wars over power, Satan indeed was very busy in hunan history.

Moreover, according to both Matthew 24 and Revelation 7, 13, 14, & 20, the great Tribulation is to have a starting point, a period of unrivaled suffering, and an ending point, being the Return of the Lord. Scri[ture is clear on this. Moreover, certain things must transpire during this time period. Am distinct Mark has to be used by a certain False Prophet to divide the believer from the non. Statues have to be erected that can speak of their own accord, which was not even possible until recent history. MOreover, Babylon has to be a ten-nation conglamorate, with the ten kings giving the Beast their authority as heads of state. There is no mistaking this period of time, a period that only last 42 months.

SO, I know that the seige in Jerusalem was horrible, but no matter how horrid it was, it never had the items listed as things that must happen during the Great Tribulation happen. Sorry, mograce2u, but this is most believers' stance on this subject, and I stand in agreement with them.

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 09:15 AM
. So when the floods came they were taken away and Noah and his family were left behind.



The same thing will happen again before the great tribulation Christ will
come and take His believers out of the world and leave the unbelievers behind.


Im a little confused, you said Noah -the righteous was left behind, then you said the unrighteous are left behind---This is not the same.

Sorry jettweeder
It doesn't pay to have a headache a write at the same time. That is a typo it is meant to be believers.
Dizzy

Naphal
Sep 13th 2007, 09:41 AM
Haven't read all the posts here so am only responding to you. I don't think there is any danger in believing in the pre-trib translation, but I would caution you not to be presumptious about being included in it. I think many will be left in stark consternation because of their presumption about God.

I'm not sure what you mean but I can assure you I will have no part of a pre-trib rapture. :)

Gard
Sep 13th 2007, 03:27 PM
What did you believe before you were converted?

Dizzy

I believed in a pre-trib rapture. That was what I was always taught. But something i could never get out of my mind was why the scriptures that are usually used to prove the pre-trib point of view are so vague about the whole thing. Now i know why.

Amazedgrace21
Sep 13th 2007, 04:43 PM
As I am not fully persuaded as to when the rapture will occur, pre-trib or not..

Perhaps what always has me a bit confused is the entire concept of the "harpazo" in respect to "if" anyone is going anywhere, it will be by virture of Christ alone..issuing the command to "meet Him in the clouds" and collecting "His own" to himself..and gathering "His own" to himself..that this time will be determined by God alone.

So the time when it occurs is one thing but the event itself is another..

When God called Noah to enter the Ark..Noah had a choice to obey or not, which he responded to and did so by faith..but he alone was issued this invitation because God found him "just".

So perhaps this is far too simplified..but it will not be an angel "commanding" us to be gathered and taken up to Christ..it will be Christ doing the commanding..no choice here IMHO..those that belong to him, will rise up..those who don't will not..

From this understanding of the event itself..I would not chose to be "not invited" then than I desire to not be invited now..to be commanded to meet Christ in the clouds..as one of his that he is "gathering".

Satan is not Christ..and only Christ can and will issue this command..and it will only be issued to those who "belong" to Christ..that God's wrath is not appointed for those who are "his own", anymore than God's wrath was appointed for Noah..that seems to be "good news"..IMHO..

So I would not take that to mean the "hirelings" have run away from anything..there will be no case of mistaken identity as to who does the "commanding" that brings about the event itself..that this is not about "negotiating" with any angels whatsoever..it's a spontaneous event.."in a blink of an eye"

The events of the flood were a judgement God brought upon the circumstances that were present at that time in respect to dealing with Satans efforts to corrupt the blood line of Christ and the nature of how he was going about it..and this failed..Christ was born..Christ lived, Christ died, Christ rose from the dead, Christ ascended into Heaven so that the Holy Spirit could come and to go prepare the "mansion" and return for us at God's appointed time to establish His Kingdom on earth..for the 1000 yrs.

No more "arks" to build..to escape..the wrath of god..we don't have to be in the "ark" we have to be "in Christ"..to escape that, and Christ promised we would..that will be the great tribulation, it is my humble understanding will be a literal future event..a time when great wickedness will abound..a time when the future tribulation saints will be set apart and sealed as we already are.."now"..so the Rapture IMHO is a promise of great joy and comfort..in respect to escaping the Wrath..


We are already sealed in Christ are we not? We are the "wheat" are we not? So we could not be "raptured away" at any point prior to or during the tribulation to be destroyed by Christ now could we? But we can only "be raptured" by Christ..at all..and only for the marraige feast of the Lamb..as "his bride"..there is no danger in being raptured at all IMHO..and I have no problem with "the when" either..just "if" I were not..that literally scares the hell out of me..:eek:

Matt 13 tells you that the wicked are first bound and then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

Just my humble observations..

Vickilynn
Sep 13th 2007, 04:54 PM
I believe there is NO danger at all in believing in the pre-trib doctrine except for someone to "Not know Jesus as their LORD and Savior!" And this would apply to any time or with any doctrine.

Shalom,

Amen and amen. Well-said!!

ross3421
Sep 13th 2007, 07:22 PM
What will happen to all the preachers which are telling thier members not to worry God will be faithful and Rapture out his church but it does not occur?

Imagine the senerio..... intense rumors of wars ect. are breaking out across the globe as the preachers are saying don't worry we will be gone. The teaching of the Rapture increases however the wars come about, plagues follow, and then those upon the earth need to make a life or death decison.

Those told in error that they were to be taken would now find themselves in the midst of tribulation asking thier preacher "but you told us!" and so on.

How angry will they get?
Will the preachers be able to stand?


Mark.

Amazedgrace21
Sep 13th 2007, 08:53 PM
What will happen to all the preachers which are telling thier members not to worry God will be faithful and Rapture out his church but it does not occur?

Imagine the senerio..... intense rumors of wars ect. are breaking out across the globe as the preachers are saying don't worry we will be gone. The teaching of the Rapture increases however the wars come about, plagues follow, and then those upon the earth need to make a life or death decison.

Those told in error that they were to be taken would now find themselves in the midst of tribulation asking thier preacher "but you told us!" and so on.

How angry will they get?
Will the preachers be able to stand?


Mark.

Mark,

I can only speak for myself..but I knew "zip-nada" about the rapture for years..I was blissfully ignorant..I accepted Christ as my Savior because I knew I was a sinner, my heart was broken, I was so profoundly convicted when I came to understand what Christ did for us on that cross..

I had absolutely no doubt that Christ was returning one day, that much Iuderstood..but Revelations made very little sense to me..I was "stupified"

Over the last decade or so , it's come into focus for me from much study what tremendous significance this has..so much that has happened in my own lifetime just signifies that we are definately seeing "sign's" of what Christ said to watch for..all of myhope and asurance is in the present tense..based upon what Christ has already done for me..I look forward by faith with great hope for being reunited with Christ one day..

I guess what I am saying is that, what will be , "will be" and I only yearn for God's will to be done..and as much as it can be on earth as it is in heaven.

If folks get all mad and "blame" their Pastors because they were not Raptured out of a world going to hell in a handbasket , then they have got all of their priorites wrong IMHO..its not about that at all..

Sort of like.."if" hypothetically, they recognized the tribulation had started..and if they understood what the tribulations was about..as bad as anything and everything can get, probably will..the very fact that is happening is prophecy coming alive and that Christ is on His way..all the more reason to be ready and waiting IMHO..to share the good news..no matter what..and all the more urgency to do so IMHO.

God is always faithful..that should never be doubted..and if someone finds doubt about God..it is never about God's lack of faithfulness but theirs..

I look up in the sense that I know Christ will make his appearance from "above"..I look around, in the sense that Christ said to "watch"..my faith is in Christ and what he has "already done"...nor am I concerned with what way Christ takes me home..only that I am going home..to Him..

No one is going to reject Christ because they did not know better,or were not given a choice to accept Him either ..they simply did.. and that was their final choice...a very, sad and bad one for their sake.

For me, personally, the Tribulation is about as clear, as fair God can make that clear..all knees will bend..because this was always true..:hug:

yoSAMite
Sep 13th 2007, 09:17 PM
I see absolutely no danger in believing in the pre-trib rapture. In fact the more I read other views, the stronger my belief becomes. Acts 17:11 soundly tells us that we are responsible for our beliefs, not a pastor, a teacher or anyone else. I take full responsibility for my pre-trib views, they make the most sense to me in my study of the Bible.

What I do find dangerous is when people take their eyes off Jesus and concentrate on unimportant "signs" and such. From what I've read here it seems that those who's focus shifted from Jesus also seemed to change their rapture views.

I find the question interesting in that it presumes this view is wrong and some other view is correct. What if there is no rapture at all, would the same concerns be voiced?

One's rapture view is not essential to faith in Jesus, so I don't believe there are any eternal consequences. And if I'm wrong (which I doubt), I will still believe in Jesus just as much as I do now.

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 09:18 PM
I believed in a pre-trib rapture. That was what I was always taught. But something i could never get out of my mind was why the scriptures that are usually used to prove the pre-trib point of view are so vague about the whole thing. Now i know why.


I don't believe the scriptures are so vague.
I could give you a great study on Revelation and the end times if you want.

DIZZY:thumbsup:

DIZZY
Sep 13th 2007, 09:21 PM
I see absolutely no danger in believing in the pre-trib rapture. In fact the more I read other views, the stronger my belief becomes. Acts 17:11 soundly tells us that we are responsible for our beliefs, not a pastor, a teacher or anyone else. I take full responsibility for my pre-trib views, they make the most sense to me in my study of the Bible.

What I do find dangerous is when people take their eyes off Jesus and concentrate on unimportant "signs" and such. From what I've read here it seems that those who's focus shifted from Jesus also seemed to change their rapture views.

I find the question interesting in that it presumes this view is wrong and some other view is correct. What if there is no rapture at all, would the same concerns be voiced?

One's rapture view is not essential to faith in Jesus, so I don't believe there are any eternal consequences. And if I'm wrong (which I doubt), I will still believe in Jesus just as much as I do now.


That was a great reply
Dizzy:amen:

HisLeast
Sep 13th 2007, 09:21 PM
Here's what I don't get about the disdain shown to pre-tribbers. The idea I've heard over and over is "they believe there will be an escape, but when the escape doesn't come, they'll lose faith"

Don't you think its much more likely that they'll simply change eschatology? If someone realized they were in the tribulation, doesn't that immediately validate the rest of scriptures for them? "There IS a tribulation, therefore scriptures are true". I don't see how someone can realize they're in the tribulation and then say "oh well, I can't have faith in Christ anymore". Its a square peg in a round hole.

My heart's Desire
Sep 13th 2007, 10:59 PM
Hi My hearts disire, How true you are.
Dizzy

Thank you! I thought I'd just answer the main Op's question with a simple answer. As you can tell the thread is becoming one of those for/against pre-trib things. I could say alot about it, but every poster have such things that have deep thoughts to them, I'd be in Bible Study for another 72 hours just on this thread alone!
:spin:

ross3421
Sep 13th 2007, 11:11 PM
Mark,

I can only speak for myself..but I knew "zip-nada" about the rapture for years..I was blissfully ignorant..I accepted Christ as my Savior because I knew I was a sinner, my heart was broken, I was so profoundly convicted when I came to understand what Christ did for us on that cross..

I had absolutely no doubt that Christ was returning one day, that much Iuderstood..but Revelations made very little sense to me..I was "stupified"

Over the last decade or so , it's come into focus for me from much study what tremendous significance this has..so much that has happened in my own lifetime just signifies that we are definately seeing "sign's" of what Christ said to watch for..all of myhope and asurance is in the present tense..based upon what Christ has already done for me..I look forward by faith with great hope for being reunited with Christ one day..

I guess what I am saying is that, what will be , "will be" and I only yearn for God's will to be done..and as much as it can be on earth as it is in heaven.

If folks get all mad and "blame" their Pastors because they were not Raptured out of a world going to hell in a handbasket , then they have got all of their priorites wrong IMHO..its not about that at all..

Sort of like.."if" hypothetically, they recognized the tribulation had started..and if they understood what the tribulations was about..as bad as anything and everything can get, probably will..the very fact that is happening is prophecy coming alive and that Christ is on His way..all the more reason to be ready and waiting IMHO..to share the good news..no matter what..and all the more urgency to do so IMHO.

God is always faithful..that should never be doubted..and if someone finds doubt about God..it is never about God's lack of faithfulness but theirs..

I look up in the sense that I know Christ will make his appearance from "above"..I look around, in the sense that Christ said to "watch"..my faith is in Christ and what he has "already done"...nor am I concerned with what way Christ takes me home..only that I am going home..to Him..

No one is going to reject Christ because they did not know better,or were not given a choice to accept Him either ..they simply did.. and that was their final choice...a very, sad and bad one for their sake.

For me, personally, the Tribulation is about as clear, as fair God can make that clear..all knees will bend..because this was always true..:hug:


My concern is for those pastors. Imagine not only the sadness that he ignorantly told them a lie but the humility needed to admit error. Will he stand or fall?

Lou M.
Sep 14th 2007, 01:10 AM
Danger #2 is that the pre-trib doctrine can be compared to the old testament prophecies of peace and safety before trouble. And this is what I believe Paul and Jesus warned against and is not without precedence.

Corrie ten Boom has warned:

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next."

Lou M.
Sep 14th 2007, 01:47 AM
I believe that the Church has bought a "bag of goods" that along with the will lend to her apostacy when the reality 'hits the fan'.
When the Church who has been taught that she would not be here when the 'great tribulation' by anti-Christ occurrs, suddenly finds herself in the midst of that 'great tribulation'; I fear that what will immediately follow is a distrust of God's Word and a distrust of those who had led them to believe in a pre-tribulational rapture rendering them unprepaired for the time ahead and easy prey for what Jesus warned us about.
I sure hope I'm way of base about this but I can see those 'leaders' saying something like, "Ok, we were wrong about what the rapture meant for us but we know that the Lord must be here for our protection because anti-Christ is here."
This may thrust them directly into the hands of those whom Jesus warned:

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

My only request is that you will not take man's word over God's Word, that you will study this doctrine for yourself being true and honest with His Word.

jeffweeder
Sep 14th 2007, 01:50 AM
Very nice post lou.

There is no way to escape it.
If they persecuted me, they will persecute you.

Mograce2U
Sep 14th 2007, 04:49 AM
Here's what I don't get about the disdain shown to pre-tribbers. The idea I've heard over and over is "they believe there will be an escape, but when the escape doesn't come, they'll lose faith"

Don't you think its much more likely that they'll simply change eschatology? If someone realized they were in the tribulation, doesn't that immediately validate the rest of scriptures for them? "There IS a tribulation, therefore scriptures are true". I don't see how someone can realize they're in the tribulation and then say "oh well, I can't have faith in Christ anymore". Its a square peg in a round hole.You are too cute! If it were that easy why not do it now? :P

Ezekiel_37
Sep 14th 2007, 05:00 AM
the pre trib rapture teaches folks to accept the next Jesus to come on the scene....

we know that the next one will be the fake one....so in essence, pre trib teaches to accept the son of Perdition, hence take the mark of the beast...

I would also suggest reading Ez 28...God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls...

Mograce2U
Sep 14th 2007, 05:14 AM
the pre trib rapture teaches folks to accept the next Jesus to come on the scene....

we know that the next one will be the fake one....so in essence, pre trib teaches to accept the son of Perdition, hence take the mark of the beast...

I would also suggest reading Ez 28...God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls...
I am not a pre-tribber but your post seems way out of line to me.

ForceMajuere
Sep 14th 2007, 06:11 AM
There's been many discussions on 'pre-trib' rapture and it's origin which is dispensationalism. So much has been said on these that all I can say is 'sameathing'.

3 Reasons for not 'pre-trib':(this is what I believe the Lord gave me)

1) The Lord shall suddenly appear and all nations shall see Him

2) The Day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night; there will be no warning for individuals

3) The Lord desires that none perish but that all have eternal life; to remove church is to remove those who would bear witness to those in need.

Every example of God's judgement unto death has been an immediate severing of the wicked from the righteous.

Lot, the perfect example of the last day believer was removed as God rained down judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah-where's the 'pre-trib' example here?

Pharoah and his armies were drowned as the Children of Israel were led try-shod through the Red Sea. The perfect picture of the 'rapture' for the righteous as the wicked are destroyed.

Noah, 'preached' for 100 years, before God closed him in the ark and the others at the same time were being destroyed.

Here's a response to those who are 'waiting' for the "great tribulation". It's already here! The Anti-Christ is already here and ruling in the earth, many (not all) of the plagues have been poured out upon the earth, and the biggest sign (Israel-as a nation) is a reality in our day and time.

Of course, those who interpret Revelations only literally have no clue what I'm talking about; I believe most of those in the 'pre-trib' camp are in this catagory.

Sincerely,
FM

Steven3
Sep 14th 2007, 08:41 AM
Hi ForceMajeure :)
Good post
There's been many discussions on 'pre-trib' rapture and it's origin which is dispensationalism. So much has been said on these that all I can say is 'sameathing'.

3 Reasons for not 'pre-trib':(this is what I believe the Lord gave me)

1) The Lord shall suddenly appear and all nations shall see Him

2) The Day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night; there will be no warning for individuals

3) The Lord desires that none perish but that all have eternal life; to remove church is to remove those who would bear witness to those in need.

That looks like not what the Lord gave you, but what the Lord gave everyone, because that's what's in the Bible.

As far as I can see this hiding in heaven for 30 days, 3 1/2 years doesn't have a single verse to support it outside Revelation, which is where I was always taught we should go only after having established what OT, Gospels and Epistles teach first.

The only non-Revelation verse which is being cited in favour of 'pre-trib' is 1Thess4:17, which in the Greek doesn't allow the a rapture back to heaven since the word "meet" means "welcome a guest to come in".

See how the Greek word APANTESIS is used in other verses:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G529&Version=kjv

God bless :)
Steven

Steven3
Sep 14th 2007, 08:53 AM
Hi Ezekiel37 :)
the pre trib rapture teaches folks to accept the next Jesus to come on the scene....

we know that the next one will be the fake one....so in essence, pre trib teaches to accept the son of Perdition, hence take the mark of the beast...Sorry but how do we know this for certain? The 1John "Antichrist" was already there, and the 2Thess "Son of Perdition" was soon, so these verse don't have to be read as a literal man, or demon, 2000 years after John and Paul wrote. Are we sure? Because I for one don't see it has to be read that way. For example who is he who restrains the Son of Perdition if not Paul himself:

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

Paul died in AD60s under Nero if 2Tim4:6-8 are anything to go by. That means that the Man of Lawlessness (ESV), Son of Perdition, should have been revealed 1,950 years ago, not now.
God bless
Steven

Amazedgrace21
Sep 14th 2007, 02:18 PM
I sincerely do not believe that the evidence points to the Tribulation being anything but a future event of this world's darkest hour's..

What does concern me about the discussions of the Rapture is that there should be no "fear" on the part of any Christians with respect towards this event as it heralds in the return of Christ..regardless of which way we lean towards the rapture..it's not an essential doctrine of salvation..

The Tribulation is in effect a judgement upon the wicked, not Christ's own..and from an essential doctrine standpoint this is what concerns me..

Doesn't it seem to stand to reason that if we are soundly secure in our faith "now" and basically "living the talk and walking the walk"..that we are not going to be deceived, that we can trust the Word of God in this respect..that what ever happens, were this to come as a literal event in our lifetimes..we have nothing to fear at all?

That this should never be based upon the security of the circumstances we may find ourselves facing in the world, but only upon Christ?

That seems to be the greatest imperative that our faith is not reduced to a heap of ashes because we did not continue to trust in God without waivering as did Joseph, Moses, Noah, Peter, Paul..?

As for the example of the Pastors who would be overcome with doubts or fears were they to find out they had taught the wrong truth about Rapture?..OK>>so if they are able to recognize they gave the wrong response to their treatment of the Rapture..they erred in their human ways of trying to do the right thing..to prepare their flock for Christs return..

The terrible wage of their error would be limited to that unless they rejected God based upon their errors, not His..

My concern is that we take a position that encourages others to look towards any final answer to this subject of the Rapture with a "self-centered" perspective..and not a Christ focused one..and stay on task with what motivates us to persevere in any circumstances. Not to give this treatment of the Rapture with such a confined and restricted doctrinal standpoint we are "pawns" used by Satan in trying to be in the right camp as the priority and simply keep the focus on the true accusations about Christ that arise from these speculations tend to give voice to that truh, that all need Him..NOW>>

The last words Christ gave the Apostles in their lifetimes were sufficient in their focus and emphasis to allow them to persevere in establishing his Church and to navigate through all kinds of circumstances we can't begin to imagine "having to endure"..not yet as in it personally touching our lives..they did not "fear death or persecution"..and God used them strategically because of this..

Now IMHO..as fascinating as the details are about the Rapture..the only detail that signifies a sound truth that is central to my faith is that "He is risen" and He is coming back..at any time..be ready, do you know Christ, have you accepted Him as your Savior?"

If those questions are asked..the rest will be OK, if they are answered affirmatively?The divine reassurance in truly having that answer is all that matters..and will equip us to handle what ever 'real world problems" arrive..that should captivate our hearts, our minds when we look at the state of affairs in this world and see these signs all around us.

Do we have this faith now and even if we do not see any rapture in our lifetimes..will prepare us if indeed we find we are literally entering the times of literal Tribulation in our lifetimes..

..I am simply suggestioning that we have to agree at the progressive turn for the worst in this world..and how many are under tremendous pressure by this culture and its refusal to embrace any biblical truth of Christ..and not worry so much about all of this Rapture stuff..to motivate others to consider why they need God "now"..or burden us with fears about anything to the extent we do not maintain our peace and focus on Christ.

The Apostles got that.."the priority" was "why" we are to watch and persevere..He is Risen!..Thats the good news..and the only thing that matter's!:hug:

If I were to approach this in a nutshell..how much lighter any trials become when we realize God's grace is not only the happy ending but the peace we can have during any painful journey when we trust in God --all the way!

YSIC,
Grace

ForceMajuere
Sep 14th 2007, 04:43 PM
I sincerely do not believe that the evidence points to the Tribulation being anything but a future event of this world's darkest hour's..

The Tribulation is in effect a judgement upon the wicked, not Christ's own..and from an essential doctrine standpoint this is what concerns me..

Doesn't it seem to stand to reason that if we are soundly secure in our faith "now" and basically "living the talk and walking the walk"..that we are not going to be deceived, that we can trust the Word of God in this respect..that what ever happens, were this to come as a literal event in our lifetimes..we have nothing to fear at all?



Rev. 18:23 "For by thy sorceries were all nations deceived".

We have all been deceived. I include myself in the mix. Because Protestant Christianity has had their flintlock rifles pointed at a 'literal' Anti-Christ (Nicoli Carpathian or some sort) we have ignored the signs that God has given all the churches(including the Roman Catholic Church) that spell out the Truth of the events that will take place on earth.

We want our news to be related to us by war correspondants or play by play broadcasters; God just simply isn't jumping through our hoop!

Now, your enemy and mine had opened up his play book in Gen. 3:5 when he said,"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as 'gods', knowing good and evil." This is the Great Lie, all other lies proceed from this one, and truth be told, man has bit on this lie ever since.

So much so that we have erected a society, devoid of the influence of God, subject entirely to the whim of man, and for the exception of a few whiney Christians, has made this lie a reality.

Where do we get our information from? Where do we get our medicine from? Our social services? Our education? Our economy? Our entertainment? Our laws as they are now interpreted? From God? Your kidding!

It is amazing that in this age and time God has revealed this Truth of Secular Humanism and it's ravages all across the spectrum of Christianity; from Oral Roberts and Jerry Fallwell, Tim LaHaye, Bill Gothard, Francis Shaeffer, to-quess who- Pope Benedict XVI who has recently written an encyclical on it.

All the Judgements of God are against it; for it is the 'god' of man's making.

Here is a secret-how did God judge the 'gods' of Egypt and spare the Children of Israel? He didn't spare them from the wrath of the Egyptians, but from the plagues that were pronounced on them. You discover this and you will have insight into how the plagues of Revelations are played out.

Sincerely,
FM

Mograce2U
Sep 14th 2007, 04:47 PM
ForceMajuere,
Have you noticed we don't even rely on the blessing of rain anymore, I'm surprised we don't thank ourselves for our crops...

Mograce2U
Sep 14th 2007, 04:49 PM
Grace, #98 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1381390&postcount=98)
I tried to rep you for this post - I like your style!

Naphal
Sep 14th 2007, 08:11 PM
Here's what I don't get about the disdain shown to pre-tribbers. The idea I've heard over and over is "they believe there will be an escape, but when the escape doesn't come, they'll lose faith"

Don't you think its much more likely that they'll simply change eschatology?

It isn't disdain, it's concern. Yes they will change eschatology but the concern is that they also might change religions and fall away in the Apostasy. It is a poor time to believe so strongly in the pre-trib rapture and suddenly realize you had been wrong and have the Antichrist present to take advantage of that difficult time.

Naphal
Sep 14th 2007, 08:19 PM
Lets try to stay on track. This thread isn't for providing support for the pre-trib doctrine or to question modern Christian in other areas of doctrine. It is only for discussing any possible dangers in believing the pre-trib doctrine. I'd like opinions and scriptures from anyone, even those who believe in the pre-trib.

DIZZY
Sep 14th 2007, 09:00 PM
I believe that the Church has bought a "bag of goods" that along with the will lend to her apostacy when the reality 'hits the fan'.
When the Church who has been taught that she would not be here when the 'great tribulation' by anti-Christ occurrs, suddenly finds herself in the midst of that 'great tribulation'; I fear that what will immediately follow is a distrust of God's Word and a distrust of those who had led them to believe in a pre-tribulational rapture rendering them unprepaired for the time ahead and easy prey for what Jesus warned us about.
I sure hope I'm way of base about this but I can see those 'leaders' saying something like, "Ok, we were wrong about what the rapture meant for us but we know that the Lord must be here for our protection because anti-Christ is here."

This may thrust them directly into the hands of those whom Jesus warned:
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

My only request is that you will not take man's word over God's Word, that you will study this doctrine for yourself being true and honest with His Word.

(If) the pre-trib isn't ture then I have nothing to worry about. (If) my Lord wants me to suffer for Him I am willing to do that too.

My salvation doestn't depend on whether I am a pre-trib, post-trib or whatever, my salvation belongs to Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour.

I have no fear in dying, which ever way my Lord wants to take me home I will be happy with. If Daniel was willing to go into the lions den, Joseph into a pit, and if Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego can be thrown into a fire and the Lord protect them, then I have nothing to fear (if) I have to go through the tribulation period. Either way I am saved. Priase the Lord.

Dizzy:amen:

DIZZY
Sep 14th 2007, 09:12 PM
It isn't disdain, it's concern. Yes they will change eschatology but the concern is that they also might change religions and fall away in the Apostasy. It is a poor time to believe so strongly in the pre-trib rapture and suddenly realize you had been wrong and have the Antichrist present to take advantage of that difficult time.


Were you ever wrong with what you believed at anytime?
If you are wrong it doesn't change your faith, it makes you look for the truth, especially if you are a true believer in Christ.
What if you are wrong and there is a pre-trib?
Will that make you disbelieve or believe?
Will you turn away from your faith because you were not taken home?

Thank God our salavation only depends on believing in Him and what He has done for us.
Acts 16:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=16&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Dizzy:pp

DIZZY
Sep 14th 2007, 09:51 PM
the pre trib rapture teaches folks to accept the next Jesus to come on the scene....

we know that the next one will be the fake one....so in essence, pre trib teaches to accept the son of Perdition, hence take the mark of the beast...

I would also suggest reading Ez 28...God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls...

With the pre-trib rapture Christ comes unseen by the world and takes His church away. The only veiwing of this scene is when they see catastrophe in the world. Loved ones missing unexplained etc.

Dizzy:idea:

jesuslover1968
Sep 14th 2007, 10:06 PM
I believe in a pre-trib rapture and I see no dangers whatsoever. If there isn't a pre-trib rapture, then I was wrong, pure and simple, not through any fault of God's, but my own. If there is no rapture, then I will go through the tribulation. God tells us in His Word that He will never give us more than we can handle, so I trust in THAT. If the trib is what He has in store for me, who am I to question that?
I think the statement that pre-tribs are in danger of accepting the false christ is ludicrous. Even if we are not raptured, ANY true Christian will know the Shepherd, and the Shepherd knows His sheep. If a man comes on the scene and signs a covenant with Israel, that is a sure sign he ain't Jesus, huh? I think that was a very inappropriate statement.
I like this thread though and would like to see threads with the same question posed about the other views.
As far as our salvation being safe in just believing in the Lord, that ain't so, either. The free gift of salvation is more than just believing. Even satan and his demons believe. It is having faith, accepting Jesus, following Christ in obedience and repenting for our sins. In that, it is required that we believe His every Word. The Bible is the Word, and Jesus IS that Word.
So, in conclusion, I think the question should rather be, if we interpret wrong, will it effect us in any way? ( and this would include all views )

DIZZY
Sep 14th 2007, 10:11 PM
Rapture, the—translation of saved at Christ’s return
Not all will sleep 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:15, 17
Dead in Christ will rise 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:13, 14, 16
Living to be transformed 1 Cor. 15:51–53
Saints caught up 1 Thess. 4:16, 17

Kepts from Satan and God's wrath
Revelation 3:10
10 because you have kept My command to persevere, I also
will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

If these are wrong. Can someone please explain what they mean?
I want proof that God is wrong. :bible:

It has been asked for verses that support the rapture theory. These verses support the pre-trib, I hope they can help you and these verses come from the word of God not mans belief.

Dizzyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon1.gif

DIZZY
Sep 14th 2007, 10:24 PM
I believe in a pre-trib rapture and I see no dangers whatsoever. If there isn't a pre-trib rapture, then I was wrong, pure and simple, not through any fault of God's, but my own. If there is no rapture, then I will go through the tribulation. God tells us in His Word that He will never give us more than we can handle, so I trust in THAT. If the trib is what He has in store for me, who am I to question that?
I think the statement that pre-tribs are in danger of accepting the false christ is ludicrous. Even if we are not raptured, ANY true Christian will know the Shepherd, and the Shepherd knows His sheep. If a man comes on the scene and signs a covenant with Israel, that is a sure sign he ain't Jesus, huh? I think that was a very inappropriate statement.
I like this thread though and would like to see threads with the same question posed about the other views.
As far as our salvation being safe in just believing in the Lord, that ain't so, either. The free gift of salvation is more than just believing. Even satan and his demons believe. It is having faith, accepting Jesus, following Christ in obedience and repenting for our sins. In that, it is required that we believe His every Word. The Bible is the Word, and Jesus IS that Word.
So, in conclusion, I think the question should rather be, if we interpret wrong, will it effect us in any way? ( and this would include all views )

Well said,
My faith is in no other and I do know it is more than just believing.
James 2:17-19
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

I am obedient until my ressurection not death for Christ will raise me just as He was raised. I shall be forever be in is loving arms no matter what the out come.

Dizzy;)

Amazedgrace21
Sep 14th 2007, 10:43 PM
It isn't disdain, it's concern. Yes they will change eschatology but the concern is that they also might change religions and fall away in the Apostasy. It is a poor time to believe so strongly in the pre-trib rapture and suddenly realize you had been wrong and have the Antichrist present to take advantage of that difficult time.


They(pre-tribbers) might change religions and fall away?
lol!

I am a Christian who has not closed the door on the doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture because I continue to study it in deep prayer..and will continue to work on "sorting it out" with the Holy Spirit..I practice no "religion"..and it is not why I "believe"...

I don't believe in the "pre-trib" rapture, I believe in Christ..I lean towards the pre-trib rapture but "I stand" on Christ..no one is going to "steal" that from me..I am the "only one" who can throw that away..

Satan is alive and well, very present and always so, to take advantage of souls, in good times or difficult ones..that's why I study Revelation as a matter of fact..to educate myself and share these things with others as to his "tactic's'..and enjoy the "butt whoopin'" he's gonna get..

It's also a character study of people. and nations have always responded to Christ..the things that have deceived them all along are the very things they will continue to be deceived by.."lies"..about their unregenerated heart, coming from "their own hearts"..no one elses

The "danger" of this stage of biblical history is that it will be a time of enormous wickedness and trials of suffering..those who are sealed in Christ will be openly persecuted and in dire "physical/mortal" danger all along the way..but never their souls..unless they were not "safe" going into this ordeal.

Figuring out when the rapture will occur and getting it right will simply not make any of this go away or "less" dangerous IMHO..any more than getting it wrong..

karenoka27
Sep 14th 2007, 10:45 PM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.

I haven't read all of the posts as there are so many..but I will say this in response to your question..

no danger at all. If for some reason my believing in a rapture before the tribulation occured...which I don't...
1 Thessalonians 4:17-"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

then I believe that God will give us the grace and strength to endure through any hardships just as he does with those under persecution in other countries today.

third hero
Sep 15th 2007, 12:23 AM
I believe in a pre-trib rapture and I see no dangers whatsoever. If there isn't a pre-trib rapture, then I was wrong, pure and simple, not through any fault of God's, but my own. If there is no rapture, then I will go through the tribulation. God tells us in His Word that He will never give us more than we can handle, so I trust in THAT. If the trib is what He has in store for me, who am I to question that?
I think the statement that pre-tribs are in danger of accepting the false christ is ludicrous. Even if we are not raptured, ANY true Christian will know the Shepherd, and the Shepherd knows His sheep. If a man comes on the scene and signs a covenant with Israel, that is a sure sign he ain't Jesus, huh? I think that was a very inappropriate statement.
I like this thread though and would like to see threads with the same question posed about the other views.
As far as our salvation being safe in just believing in the Lord, that ain't so, either. The free gift of salvation is more than just believing. Even satan and his demons believe. It is having faith, accepting Jesus, following Christ in obedience and repenting for our sins. In that, it is required that we believe His every Word. The Bible is the Word, and Jesus IS that Word.
So, in conclusion, I think the question should rather be, if we interpret wrong, will it effect us in any way? ( and this would include all views )

Jesuslover,
If every pre-tribber I talked to said what you wrote, then there would be no need to even have a thread like this on this forum. The fact is that there are those who take the pre-trib doctrine as seriously as salovation itself, and base their salvation on their end-times view. This poses a tremendous danger.

Here, I will show you another example, and this time, I will show a fallacy in the post-trib POV, and this is what I believe. I have heard this from "post-tribbers" (none of them on this board, thank GOD!!!!!) Well, we have nothing to worry about until the Beast shows himself, so we can basically do whatever we want. I have also heard the "well, all we have to do is not take the mark, and we'll be fine" thought.

The fallacy is obvious. Even if CHristians in the West have nothing to worry about until the revelation of the Beast, our salvation is guarenteed by faith, and that faith is shown by the level of obedience we show to Lord Jesus. To go back into sin and die in that state, even if the beast does not show up until after your death, only guarentees your ticket to the Lake of Fire. We must obey the Lord at all times, even if it is solely to reflect His Glory that He put in us at the point of our repentence.

So you see, there are fallacies in every end-times discipline, and we are to make sure that each one of us are actually following the Lord Jesus above all else.

Amazedgrace21
Sep 15th 2007, 01:29 AM
Jesuslover,
If every pre-tribber I talked to said what you wrote, then there would be no need to even have a thread like this on this forum. The fact is that there are those who take the pre-trib doctrine as seriously as salovation itself, and base their salvation on their end-times view. This poses a tremendous danger.

Here, I will show you another example, and this time, I will show a fallacy in the post-trib POV, and this is what I believe. I have heard this from "post-tribbers" (none of them on this board, thank GOD!!!!!) Well, we have nothing to worry about until the Beast shows himself, so we can basically do whatever we want. I have also heard the "well, all we have to do is not take the mark, and we'll be fine" thought.

The fallacy is obvious. Even if CHristians in the West have nothing to worry about until the revelation of the Beast, our salvation is guarenteed by faith, and that faith is shown by the level of obedience we show to Lord Jesus. To go back into sin and die in that state, even if the beast does not show up until after your death, only guarentees your ticket to the Lake of Fire. We must obey the Lord at all times, even if it is solely to reflect His Glory that He put in us at the point of our repentence.

So you see, there are fallacies in every end-times discipline, and we are to make sure that each one of us are actually following the Lord Jesus above all else.

I think there's a lot of sound wisdom in what you shared here brother, thank you and well done!:)

I genuinely do not dismiss the concern's we need to have for other's, nor diminish a healthy sense of "self-preservation" considering what can not be ignored regarding this season of biblical history we have been told to "count upon".

If I find a fault with the position of "pre-trib" rapture that IS DANGEROUS it is in those who do abide by this at times observe it with the wrong biblical position of faith..in respect to the example you sited..

In reading series like the "Left Behind" ones..I noted so many concerns about essential doctrines regarding "salvation"..that for the unsaved would be dangerously misleading albeit I do not believe that was the intent..perhaps some very "loose handling" of the word for artistic liberty to support the story line.

This one verse..carries so much weight and significance for believers when we don't get so caught up in 'the ride' as much as the destination and who is at the end of it

1 Thessalonians 4:17-"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I often sit back and reflect upon what message we are communicating to the world when we make the focal point..about what we are leaving behind ( and why) opposed to where we are going..( and why).

I find "rapture frenzy' so discouraging in respect to all of the "anticipating, watching,preparing and getting ready "for the return of our Lord that we are counciled by the Lord himself to do..in the Olivet Discourse

Five times he told his disciples to "Take heed." (blepo, "to beware, discerning, to watch out"). The entire age would be filled with increasing deception and of disinformation and misinformation arising from secular and religious sources alike. Natural disasters, wars, famines and plagues were to be expected anywhere, anytime.



it is extremely important that we understand these scriptures, for if we do not understand them we will not watch in the way he expects. And if we do not watch we will be deceived and miss much, if not all, of the exciting possibilities of the present hour. So let us listen carefully to his parable of the household, verses 45-47:

"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions."

This parable is suitable for the instruction of those who are awaiting the Lord's return, if this is not clearly its intent.

The master of the household is gone but he has entrusted certain work to his steward until he returns. That work is primarily a ministry to the rest of the household, and notably, "to give them their food at the proper time."

I think we need to deal with themin the appropriate way that glorifies the Lord and never settle for mediocrity in abiding by this faithfully..

Consequently we should not be surprised to hear Jesus say that when the master of the house returns he will confront the faithless servant and "will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

The second coming of Jesus Christ, both from the standpoint of warning unbelievers of the coming judgment and of encouraging believers with the promise of reward to come, is a highly motivating subject.

The apostle Paul, realizing that Christ will come to judge unbelievers, says in 2 Corinthians 5:11,

"Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." Paul says in verse 9, "We labor that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." We are to serve the Lord because we want to be found faithful at His return.:pray:

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 01:53 AM
Jesuslover,
If every pre-tribber I talked to said what you wrote, then there would be no need to even have a thread like this on this forum. The fact is that there are those who take the pre-trib doctrine as seriously as salovation itself, and base their salvation on their end-times view. This poses a tremendous danger.

Here, I will show you another example, and this time, I will show a fallacy in the post-trib POV, and this is what I believe. I have heard this from "post-tribbers" (none of them on this board, thank GOD!!!!!) Well, we have nothing to worry about until the Beast shows himself, so we can basically do whatever we want. I have also heard the "well, all we have to do is not take the mark, and we'll be fine" thought.

The fallacy is obvious. Even if CHristians in the West have nothing to worry about until the revelation of the Beast, our salvation is guarenteed by faith, and that faith is shown by the level of obedience we show to Lord Jesus. To go back into sin and die in that state, even if the beast does not show up until after your death, only guarentees your ticket to the Lake of Fire. We must obey the Lord at all times, even if it is solely to reflect His Glory that He put in us at the point of our repentence.

So you see, there are fallacies in every end-times discipline, and we are to make sure that each one of us are actually following the Lord Jesus above all else.


(quoet:third hero)
The fact is that there are those who take the pre-trib doctrine as seriously as salvation itself, and base their salvation on their end-times view.

These people who base their salvation on their end times veiw must not be saved in the first place. For salvation is not based on what we believe about the end times, it is based on Jesus Christ and faith in what he has done for us.

Look at the book of Revelation. John didn't know everything until it was revealed to him through Jesus Christ Himself. Revelation is given to to John by Christ about esus Christ, for believers, so we can know what is to come. Not when but what.

Revelation 1



1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The bible tells us He is coming which means He is on His way already. Don't know when but He is coming.

As a pre-trib believer this makes me want to spread the truth more earnestly to others.

Dizzy;)

jeffweeder
Sep 15th 2007, 02:45 AM
Hi Dizzy


Revelation 3:10
10 because you have kept My command to persevere, I also
will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

If these are wrong. Can someone please explain what they mean?

This is why i dont think it refers to a rapture
We are kept from the hour of trail of the evil one, but we are still here.

JN 17
13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from[Or out of the power of] the evil one.


1 thess 4, as Paul says is according to the word of the lord.
Its the lords teaching, and Jesus said he would come after the tribulation.
He never mentions coming before it, but speaks of his one coming again.




15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Word of the Lord



29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[20][Or chosen ones ] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

My heart's Desire
Sep 15th 2007, 02:56 AM
Hi Dizzy



This is why i dont think it refers to a rapture
We are kept from the hour of trail of the evil one, but we are still here.

JN 17
13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from[Or out of the power of] the evil one.

1 thess 4, as Paul says is according to the word of the lord.
Its the lords teaching, and Jesus said he would come after the tribulation.
He never mentions coming before it, but speaks of his one coming again.




Word of the Lord

Yes, but I believe it to mean that we are not taken to Heaven the minute we are saved, and we are kept from the evil one, every day of our lives here, using Jn 17:15

My heart's Desire
Sep 15th 2007, 03:18 AM
I believe that the Church has bought a "bag of goods" that along with the will lend to her apostacy when the reality 'hits the fan'.
When the Church who has been taught that she would not be here when the 'great tribulation' by anti-Christ occurrs, suddenly finds herself in the midst of that 'great tribulation'; I fear that what will immediately follow is a distrust of God's Word and a distrust of those who had led them to believe in a pre-tribulational rapture rendering them unprepaired for the time ahead and easy prey for what Jesus warned us about.
I sure hope I'm way of base about this but I can see those 'leaders' saying something like, "Ok, we were wrong about what the rapture meant for us but we know that the Lord must be here for our protection because anti-Christ is here."
This may thrust them directly into the hands of those whom Jesus warned:

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

My only request is that you will not take man's word over God's Word, that you will study this doctrine for yourself being true and honest with His Word.

From what you've said here, I don't see a danger in the Pre-trib belief itself. If they fall away if things don't happen as they have been taught, then that shows a fault in what or whom they are really putting their faith in. Then in that regard, that would make it a salvation issue, IMO. As the Word does warn us about false prophets and such, but the verse above says "if possible" to deceive. Couldn't that mean also that it is impossible to deceive them? The Word says that we are not in darkness but in the light. He certainly has given us warning about these things. That tells me how much more we should nurture young believers more in their actual faith. Your request that we only take God's Word to heart about these things and not man's is well founded.

Naphal
Sep 15th 2007, 03:55 AM
Were you ever wrong with what you believed at anytime?

Yes. I once believed in a false doctrine made up by man called the pre-trib rapture :)





If you are wrong it doesn't change your faith, it makes you look for the truth, especially if you are a true believer in Christ.
What if you are wrong and there is a pre-trib?



There is no harm but there is the possibility of great harm in not believing i the post trib rapture as seen in this very thread.





Will that make you disbelieve or believe?
Will you turn away from your faith because you were not taken home?



I am more on the side that believes the devil, who will appear as Jesus and say he is Jesus, will have a true and very real rapture which naturally will be exactly what those who believe in pre-trib will be looking for.

Amazedgrace21
Sep 15th 2007, 06:00 AM
Naphal,

You said:

I am more on the side that believes the devil, who will appear as Jesus and say he is Jesus, will have a true and very real rapture which naturally will be exactly what those who believe in pre-trib will be looking for.


This point you have rasied is something that would have very serious merit and I am asking out of genuine sincerity if you could provide a scriptural basis for this concern..because I am not familiar as such with this concern.

What I mean is that in an example like the "Left Behind Series"..one of the concerns I had was with claims of powers that were ascribed to the Nicholas Carpethia character, as the antichrist..being similar to the attributes you are suggesting Satan will have in terms of "powers and abilities"..

In one of the exerpts in the seriesbook.. the antichrist character claimed, as Satan to be Christ and to have all the powers of Jesus in the ressurection scene, obviously spoke like Christ:



Nicolae raised his hands to shoulder height and said loudly enough for everyone to hear, without aid of a microphone, "Peace. Be still." With that the clouds ascended and vanished, and the sun reappeared in all its brilliance and heat. People squinted and covered their eyes.

"Peace be unto you," he said. "My peace I give you. Please stand." He paused while everyone rose, eyes still locked on him, bodies rigid with fear. "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in me."

Murmuring began. David heard people marveling that he was not using a microphone, but neither was he raising his voice. And yet everyone could hear.

It was as if Carpathia read their minds. "You marvel that I speak directly to your hearts without amplification, yet you saw me raise myself from the dead.

Who but the most high god has power over death? Who but god controls the earth and sky?" (The Indwelling, 366-67).

Now that just struck me as absurd for these reasons...Satan can parody the work of Christ through "all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9), but he cannot literally do what Christ did-namely, raise himself from the dead.What is at stake here is nothing less than the deity and resurrection of Christ.

In a Christian worldview, only God has the power to raise the dead. If Antichrist could "raise [himself] from the dead" and control "the earth and sky," Christianity would lose the basis for believing that Christ's resurrection vindicates his claim to deity if I am not mistaken.

IMHO, the notion that Satan can perform acts that are indistinguishable from genuine miracles suggests a dualistic worldview in which God and Satan are equal powers competing for dominance and also in that it attributes powers to the beast that belong only to God.

So what is the scriptural basis that Satan has the ability to pull off a very real,world wide Rapture?

What ever Satan is capable of..he is and remains on God's leash..so it would be consistent for Satan to attempt much greater schemes of deception and lawlessness as scripture has pointed our attention to during the Tribulation..but I am not familiar with this "ability" ever belonging to Satan at any time scripturally as one of the "signs and wonders"

At no time did Christ ever say he would return and "reinact' his death and ressurection either..so if some demonic clown is doing this , I believe that is not going to fool anyone except a fool...

I have no doubt's that Satan will indeed attempt a lot of parody miracles..to deceive those who are not aware of his tactics..but he never has had the powers that only belong to God.:confused

Duane Morse
Sep 15th 2007, 06:38 AM
Re 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Amazedgrace21
Sep 15th 2007, 07:36 AM
Re 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Thank you Duanne Morris for these verses, I am familiar with them..and it is my understanding that the second beast coming out of the earth would be the counterfeit of the Holy Spirit

And yes he does great wonders...by the means of those miracles which he had power to do..the power to give life to the image of the beast..

Got all that..but calling down "fire" is not any different then the "hat tricks" Pharroh's court magicians did..and that is the only "wonder" directly emphasized..so that's a clue..any one commanding fire to come down is on the "bad team"..

Which those powers he had to do..IMHO suggests that there is a limit to what powers he has to do..nor confirms he has powers and abilities..equal to God's..

Having power to give life to the "image" of the beast..is something that clearly sets apart the beast..Jesus never went around giving life to images of anything..Jesus never commanded anyone to worship images of ANYTHING, mute or talking "images" lol!Christ never instituted punishments and consequences of death penalites to be performed by men, demanded us to take "marks" of worship to buy or sell anything..

Huge clue..stay clear of talking images..lol...if we see a world leader coming back to life after a deadly wound..thats God saying "run!", again this is not a miracle Christ will be re-inacting ever again..

I am not mocking or trying to be sarcastic, really I am not..but here we have been given such precious and solid council from God to use some "common sense" here..

All these things are exactly what the antichrist will be doing that are so clearly designated that are completely scripturally backed as everything Christ never commanded or demanded of us..it would take very little effort of deception on Satans part to convince many of much..when it comes to folks today who hero worship the likes of Madona or Michael Jackson...live in virtual reality worlds and can't cope with the real world..

I am concerned what signs and wonders Satan has ever had any history of being able to produce..that could not be recognized or would be confused as having equal footing with God's abilities..and I know of no such ability in the bible..Moses staff consumed the other snakes...in other words every step of the way the beast tries to steal God's glory, God has arranged spectacular responses..and consequences just as he demonstrated to the Egyptians..

Turning a goblet of water into blood is not a miracle..turning the oceans and seas, lakes and rivers into blood "is"..:hmm:

Christ did not kill those who would not worship him..he laid down his life for us

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 07:48 AM
Hi Dizzy



This is why i dont think it refers to a rapture
We are kept from the hour of trail of the evil one, but we are still here.

JN 17
13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from[Or out of the power of] the evil one.



1 thess 4, as Paul says is according to the word of the lord.
Its the lords teaching, and Jesus said he would come after the tribulation.
He never mentions coming before it, but speaks of his one coming again.




Word of the Lord

Hi Jeffweeder,
John 17 has nothing to do with the rapture.
John 17:15
Christ is asking God to keep the disciples faith strong whilst they are still in the world.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 you highlighted the word trumpet.

Lets have a look at this verse

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The trumpet is used to bring attention to something, or for war etc. If we look at the previous verse,verse 15, who is it talking about? The saved.Look at the last verse, verse 17, who is it talking about? The saved. Therefore the trumpet is for the saved not the world.

Then you have highlighted in the air in verse 17. Where else are we going to meet Him.

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 07:59 AM
Hi Dizzy



This is why i dont think it refers to a rapture
We are kept from the hour of trail of the evil one, but we are still here.

JN 17
13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from[Or out of the power of] the evil one.


1 thess 4, as Paul says is according to the word of the lord.
Its the lords teaching, and Jesus said he would come after the tribulation.
He never mentions coming before it, but speaks of his one coming again.




Word of the Lord

Matthew 24:29:30
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These verses are speeking of the day of the Lord not the rapture.
For with the rapture Christ just calls us with a trumpet and we meet Him in the air. He doesn't send His angels to gather us upfrom the four winds,from on end of heaven to the other.

Dizzy:hmm:

Duane Morse
Sep 15th 2007, 08:13 AM
Thank you Duanne Morris for these verses, I am familiar with them..and it is my understanding that the second beast coming out of the earth would be the counterfeit of the Holy Spirit

And yes he does great wonders...by the means of those miracles which he had power to do..the power to give life to the image of the beast..

Got all that..but calling down "fire" is not any different then the "hat tricks" Pharroh's court magicians did..and that is the only "wonder" directly emphasized..so that's a clue..any one commanding fire to come down is on the "bad team"..

Which those powers he had to do..IMHO suggests that there is a limit to what powers he has to do..nor confirms he has powers and abilities..equal to God's..

Having power to give life to the "image" of the beast..is something that clearly sets apart the beast..Jesus never went around giving life to images of anything..Jesus never commanded anyone to worship images of ANYTHING, mute or talking "images" lol!Christ never instituted punishments and consequences of death penalites to be performed by men, demanded us to take "marks" of worship to buy or sell anything..

Huge clue..stay clear of talking images..lol...if we see a world leader coming back to life after a deadly wound..thats God saying "run!", again this is not a miracle Christ will be re-inacting ever again..

I am not mocking or trying to be sarcastic, really I am not..but here we have been given such precious and solid council from God to use some "common sense" here..

All these things are exactly what the antichrist will be doing that are so clearly designated that are completely scripturally backed as everything Christ never commanded or demanded of us..it would take very little effort of deception on Satans part to convince many of much..when it comes to folks today who hero worship the likes of Madona or Michael Jackson...live in virtual reality worlds and can't cope with the real world..

I am concerned what signs and wonders Satan has ever had any history of being able to produce..that could not be recognized or would be confused as having equal footing with God's abilities..and I know of no such ability in the bible..Moses staff consumed the other snakes...in other words every step of the way the beast tries to steal God's glory, God has arranged spectacular responses..and consequences just as he demonstrated to the Egyptians..

Turning a goblet of water into blood is not a miracle..turning the oceans and seas, lakes and rivers into blood "is"..:hmm:

Christ did not kill those who would not worship him..he laid down his life for us
In many ways I agree with you.
But still, we should not underestimate the extent of the 'wonders and miracles' that this one could perform.

I have no doubt that they will be enough to sway at least some of us.

As to God's responses - they are just that, responses.

The anti-Christ will have the first act (and perhaps the second and third...), but the final act will always be the Lord's.
So, we should be vigilant enough to await the final act.

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 10:16 AM
Hi Dizzy



This is why i dont think it refers to a rapture
We are kept from the hour of trail of the evil one, but we are still here.

JN 17
13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from[Or out of the power of] the evil one.


1 thess 4, as Paul says is according to the word of the lord.
Its the lords teaching, and Jesus said he would come after the tribulation.
He never mentions coming before it, but speaks of his one coming again.


Word of the Lord


Yes. I once believed in a false doctrine made up by man called the pre-trib rapture :)


There is no harm but there is the possibility of great harm in not believing i the post trib rapture as seen in this very thread.


I am more on the side that believes the devil, who will appear as Jesus and say he is Jesus, will have a true and very real rapture which naturally will be exactly what those who believe in pre-trib will be looking for.

Show me where in the bible Satan will rapture people.http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon5.gif
Dizzy

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 11:15 AM
Hi Dizzy
Hi Jeffweeder,John 17:15 has nothing to do with the rapture. Christ is asking God to keep the disciples faith strong whilst they are still in the world.

Well that's also true, but John 17:15 does rather have something to do with the rapture if the rapture being taught is one that does take people away from relatives and neighbors for 30 days or 3 1/2 years.

Good verse Jeffweeder.
S.

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 11:23 AM
Hi Dizzy

Well that's also true, but John 17:15 does rather have something to do with the rapture if the rapture being taught is one that does take people away from relatives and neighbors for 30 days or 3 1/2 years.

Good verse Jeffweeder.
S.

What do you mean by this?

Dizzyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon5.gif

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 11:39 AM
Hi Dizzy :)
What do you mean by this?

http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon5.gif

John 17:15 is teaching against hermits (Christians who hide in caves) stylites (Christians who go and sit on poles), Jesus is saying Father - let them engage with the world, but keep them unspotted from the world. Living in the world but not of it.

Nevertheless the teaching does have an application to the rapture if the rapture is all about "leaving behind" those who most desperately need Christians preaching to and helping them.

Put simply - going to heaven is selfish.

God bless :)
Steven

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 11:56 AM
Hi Dizzy :)

John 17:15 is teaching against hermits (Christians who hide in caves) stylites (Christians who go and sit on poles), Jesus is saying Father - let them engage with the world, but keep them unspotted from the world. Living in the world but not of it.

Nevertheless the teaching does have an application to the rapture if the rapture is all about "leaving behind" those who most desperately need Christians preaching to and helping them.


Put simply - going to heaven is selfish.

Christ went to heaven. Are you say Jesus Christ was selfish.

God bless :)
Steven

I think you are grasping at straws there.

Jesus is praying that the disciples are not taken out of the world. He asks the Father to keep them from the evil one.

There is no mention of rapture here. We are living in this world but we don't have to be apart of its evil satanic ways. Through our faith and submission to God we are kept from the evil one.

James 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
[ Humility Cures Worldliness ] Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Show me how you can see the rapture portraited in John 17:15. So far you have not done this.


Dizzy:confused

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 12:08 PM
Hi Dizzy
Christ going to heaven would be the exception - since he's not unemployed up there as we would be. For the rest of us, yes, to go to heaven would be selfish.


Show me how you can see the rapture portrayed in John 17:15. So far you have not done this.I didn't say it was, neither did Jeffweeder. It can't be as it isn't a Biblical concept. But as Jeffweeder pointed out the basic idea - of Christians running away from the world, is counter to Christ's prayer not to take them out of the world.

Whether someone hides in a cave, or up a pole, or up in heaven, it's still counter to the spirit of John 17:15
God bless
S

Amazedgrace21
Sep 15th 2007, 12:16 PM
In many ways I agree with you.
But still, we should not underestimate the extent of the 'wonders and miracles' that this one could perform.

I have no doubt that they will be enough to sway at least some of us.

As to God's responses - they are just that, responses.

The anti-Christ will have the first act (and perhaps the second and third...), but the final act will always be the Lord's.
So, we should be vigilant enough to await the final act.

I would never underestimate Satan at..IMHO, too many have..and if Christ says, "take heed" even once..it would be absolutely reckless and arrogant to ignore the level of concern with multiple warnings of "taking heed"!!:)

In otherwords DuaneMorris..that is why I urge others why we need Christ, so "urgently" and that we need to be grounded in the Word of God, to be aware of what is up with Satan's "act" but to be firmly rooted in the courage, peace and confidence of blessed assurance of God's abilities being more than suited to deal with this "scoundrel".and his cheap and very wicked agenda of mocking Christ by immitating him..

God set the stage, it is his story, the opening act of creation is God's alone...He is and remains the first and last word of everything..and will be "responding" to those along with Satan due to their wickedness...for putting their faith into "signs and wonders"..that are not of God..

People followed Hitler, people followed Jim Jones, people load up bombs and walk into public places and blow themselves up, people walk into small country schools and murder children, people put Christ on the cross..and people will follow "this one" too right into hell..because people are capable of great evil..

The only thing that ever has or can seperate "some of us" from some of them is Christ..so there will be none of us who will be deceived at all..unless "were it to be possible"..per Christ, this is "not possible"!

We must never under estimate the extent of this :spin: ...IMHO any ways!

There will be no excuses..saying the "devil made me do it!" will be like children who have cookie crumbs sprouting all around their moth and lip's sayin "What cookie, I never saw any cookie..have no clue what you are talking about and who took your cookie!"

That's why I do not attribute the nature of the dangers of the pre-trib rapture as "having merit " on the basis Satan could pull this one off..I simply don't have a scriptural basis to give Satan this much credit..while I do give people much credit for following their evil inclinations to sorely set themselves up for failure when they demand "signs and wonders".

Christ has promised there will be a gathering of his elect from the four corners of the world..as a sign and wonder God will provide..so this doctrine has no "evil" implied for those who are "gathered, taken up", nor will Satan be doing this 'sign and wonder' at ANY TIME..no matter when it occurs unless it is supprted directly by scripture Satan has "this" ability..

I am simply not seeing it in the Word of God and if it's there and I have missed it..I sure would appreciate it being shown..I am willing to be corrected and unstupified if I have indeed underestimated Satan or overestimated God in error!..:)

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 12:47 PM
Hi Dizzy
Christ going to heaven would be the exception - since he's not unemployed up there as we would be. For the rest of us, yes, to go to heaven would be selfish.



I don't think it is. It can't be as it isn't a Biblical concept. But as Jeffweeder pointed out the basic idea - of Christians running away from the world, is counter to Christ's prayer not to take them out of the world.


How can christians run out of the world? Only Christ can take them out of the world. We can't hide ourselves. This verse stiil has nothing to do with the time of the rapture.

I feel Jeffweeder is on the wrong track too.
Are you following what he is teaching?
Or are you following the word of God?
Don't believe me or him check it out for yourself.
Ask God and He will reveal the truth to you.

If you want some verses to look up I can post them for you. But you will have to read them and study for yourself to find the gems that God has hidden. I am but a man I am fallible so don't trust me. Ask God for help.

Dizzy:D:spin::lol::bounce:



Whether someone hides in a cave, or up a pole, or up in heaven, it's still counter to the spirit of John 17:15
God bless
S


John17:15
15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

[/QUOTE]
Having spoken of what he has done for the disciples while with them Jesus returns to his request that the Father keep them (v. 11b), which he now specifies in two ways. First, this protection is to be in the midst of the world, not through removal from it (v. 15). In their identification with Jesus they draw upon themselves the world's hatred of him, but they also share in his mission to the world, as will be spelled out shortly (v. 18). Second, the protection is from the evil one (v. 15). Behind this world, which hates them, is the evil one, for "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 Jn 5:19). The warfare motif runs throughout Scripture (cf. Boyd 1997) and is fundamental in Jesus' own understanding of reality.[/QUOTE BibleGateway.com]commentary]

Dizzyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 01:12 PM
Hi Dizzy :)
I feel Jeffweeder is on the wrong track too. Are you following what he is teaching?Well he made a good comment about John17:15, one that you haven't answered by saying it's not about the rapture, I assume Jeff knows that, so that's a good start in my eyes.


Or are you following the word of God? Don't believe me or him check it out for yourself. Ask God and He will reveal the truth to you. You think I haven't done that? That's why I'm pointing out the other verses and the Greek to you. You don't think that rather than "reveal" truth God intends us to sit down and read his word in a consistent manner, to use study aids such as concordances, and not to jump in at the deep end in Revelation.

Back to the basic problem - you're misreading 1Thess4:17 - Paul clearly says that the living and dead are gathered to welcome (apantesis) Christ, but Paul does not say where they go next. Because he assumes they already know that... Yes, yes, I know that many people want Christ to turn round and go back to heaven, I imagine some people want it so badly that there will be some mid air argument with Christ when he comes, but the rest of the NT teaches that Christ is coming down to earth so that every eye will see him and his kingdom will be established. This word apantesis in 1Thess4:17 cannot mean that the bridesmaids go out to meet the groom and then run off with him, abandoning the bride, back to his village. If we're fortunate enough to be "raptured" as 1Thess4:17 then it will be earth-earth like Philip, not up to heaven, the Bible never, ever, not one single verse, promises that.
God bless
Steven

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 01:27 PM
Hi Dizzy :)Well he made a good comment about John17:15, one that you haven't answered by saying it's not about the rapture, I assume Jeff knows that, so that's a good start in my eyes.

You think I haven't done that? That's why I'm pointing out the other verses and the Greek to you. You don't think that rather than "reveal" truth God intends us to sit down and read his word in a consistent manner, to use study aids such as concordances, and not to jump in at the deep end in Revelation.

Back to the basic problem - you're misreading 1Thess4:17 - Paul clearly says that the living and dead are gathered to welcome (apantesis) Christ, but Paul does not say where they go next. Because he assumes they already know that... Yes, yes, I know that many people want Christ to turn round and go back to heaven, I imagine some people want it so badly that there will be some mid air argument with Christ when he comes, but the rest of the NT teaches that Christ is coming down to earth so that every eye will see him and his kingdom will be established. This word apantesis in 1Thess4:17 cannot mean that the bridesmaids go out to meet the groom and then run off with him, abandoning the bride, back to his village. If we're fortunate enough to be "raptured" as 1Thess4:17 then it will be earth-earth like Philip, not up to heaven, the Bible never, ever, not one single verse, promises that.
God bless
Steven

Where is Christ?

John 14:2-4
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Dizzy;)

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 01:52 PM
Hi Dizzy
Where is Christ?

John 14:2-4
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Dizzy;)

Well if he says "I will come again and receive you to Myself" then according to Acts 1:11 he'll probably be in Jerusalem. He certainly won't be in heaven any more. In any case the "mansion" (same Greek word, mone, Strongs 3438) came down already in 14:23. Only two uses of "mansion" in the NT.
God bless
S.

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 02:33 PM
Hi Dizzy

Well if he says "I will come again and receive you to Myself" then according to Acts 1:11 he'll probably be in Jerusalem. He certainly won't be in heaven any more. In any case the "mansion" (same Greek word, mone, Strongs 3438) came down already in 14:23. Only two uses of "mansion" in the NT.
God bless
S.

Acts 1:9-11

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

This verse tells us Christ will come back the same way He left, a cloud recieved Him up.

He will return with the clouds.
Here are some verses to look up.

Rapture, the—translation of saved at Christ’s return
Not all will sleep 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:15, 17
Dead in Christ will rise 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:13, 14, 16
Living to be transformed 1 Cor. 15:51–53
Saints caught up 1 Thess. 4:16, 17

Day of the Lord
In Old Testament:
Punishment of faithless Is. 13:6–13; Amos 5:18–20
Day of wrath Is. 2:6–22
Restoration of remnant Is. 10:20–22; Hos. 2:16–20

In New Testament:
The last times Matt. 24:29; 2 Pet. 3:10
The great day Rev. 16:14

H Christ’s second coming—Christ’s return will mark the judgment of all mankind (1:10; 2:19; 3:13; 4:16; 5:23; Psalm 50:3–4; Daniel 7:13; Matthew 24:36; 25:31; Mark 13:32; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 1:8; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 3:12; Jude 1:14; Revelation 1:7)

Study for yourself these verses and God will bring you to the right conclusion.


Dizzy:bible:

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 04:28 PM
Hello again my friend :)
This verse tells us Christ will come back the same way He left, a cloud recieved Him up.Yes, and then he kept going, he didn't turn round halfway and come back ;) If our Lord comes back in the same way we should expect

Acts 1:9 Mount of Olives -> clouds -> Heaven
Acts 1:11 = Heaven -> clouds -> Mount of Olives.

Take care Dizzy ;)
Cheers!
S

DIZZY
Sep 15th 2007, 10:36 PM
Hello again my friend :)Yes, and then he kept going, he didn't turn round halfway and come back ;) If our Lord comes back in the same way we should expect

Acts 1:9 Mount of Olives -> clouds -> Heaven
Acts 1:11 = Heaven -> clouds -> Mount of Olives.

Take care Dizzy ;)
Cheers!
S

Why would He call us up to meet Him if He was going to come down anyway. Would He not just gather His church to Him in Jerusalem, He has the power to do that. Like in Matthew.

Matthew 24:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This verse is actually refering to the Day of the Lord, notice The angels gather the elect.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Notice the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call the church is taken up.

Revelation 19:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=19&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Revelation 19:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=19&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Revelation 21:9-10
9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

You are right the bride(church) is taken up to go to Jerusalem.:spin::D:bounce:
The Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

Heaven>Air>Heavenhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Dizzyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon1.gif

Naphal
Sep 16th 2007, 05:07 AM
Naphal,

This point you have rasied is something that would have very serious merit and I am asking out of genuine sincerity if you could provide a scriptural basis for this concern..because I am not familiar as such with this concern.

It's long:

Who is the wicked one spoken of in these verses?

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

We all know this is satan.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

We all know this is satan.

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

We all know this is satan.

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

We all know this is satan.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Here we are told directly it is the devil!

Now that we have that established:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Paul calls the Antichrist three names, all names of Satan but one, "that Wicked", is the easiest to prove to be none other than Satan.

Don't worry that this says "Wicked" while the others say "wicked one". It is the same wording, and the word "one" is added for clarity the other times.


Matt 13:38
38 Ho dé agrós estin ho kósmos Tó dé kalón spérma
3588 1161 68 2076 3588 2889 3588 1161 2570 4690
The field is the world; the good seed
hoútoí eisin hoi huioí teés basileías Tá dé zizániá
3778 1526 3588 5207 3588 932 3588 1161 2215
are the children of the kingdom; the but tares
eisin hoi huioí toú poneeroú
1526 3588 5207 3588 4190 9999
are the children of the wicked one;
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

9999 means the word "one" was added.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Realize that Paul is referring to what Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Satan is called the son of perdition because that's his fate:

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Isaiah makes clear it is Satan that is cast into that pit as well as the 5th trump which calls Satan the "angel of the pit", not to mention Satan being cast into the pit for 1000 years.


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Paul not only calls Satan the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition" but also calls him a third name "that Wicked". Those three names should be enough for any bible reading Christian to fully recognize who Paul is speaking about.

"whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"

(the word after in the Greek does not mean "after" as in chronological order but "after" as in "like" or "according to")

So why you ask does Paul say this Wicked person comes "after" the workings of Satan?

Because it is Satan. He comes "after" or LIKE Satan because he is satan...this Antichrist role Satan will play is "like" himself because Satan likes to deceive with "power and signs and lying wonders"

This is like saying "the Terminator is after or like the working of Arnold Schwarzenegger". Why is that? Because the Terminator is a ROLE Schwarzenegger played and was in fact Schwarzenegger all along. The Antichrist will also be a ROLE that Satan plays, and yes, will have been Satan all along too. Don't be deceived.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So who is the beast that comes out of the pit and goes into perdition?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Its Satan of course, the son of perdition. Perdition means to perish and that's what will happen to Satan after he ascends from the pit.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't think the beast and the FP are literal things or people, its all symbology partially explained in Rev 17.

Anyone looking for some wicked human antichrist-man is going to be fooled when Satan appears pretending to be Christ, known as the Antichrist. Do not be fooled by a type or foreshadow or similarity of the Antichrist. I have no doubt that some human man will come on the scene and make most Christians think he is fulfilling the Antichrist prophecies...but he wont be the actual AC, but only a type...only a trick to fool Christians looking for "an" AC.

The Antichrist and the False prophet are one in the same, the same being. It's like saying the President and George Bush. The one often called the "political beast" is the first beast of Rev 13 which is a governmental system ruling the world and the "religious" beast is the false prophet/Antichrist whom is a single being that claims to be God and rules over the first beast and thus the world.


1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Antichrist will come, but until then many types of the AC shall come...do NOT fall for a type as the real thing. There are all those that deny Christ which makes them Antichrist's because they oppose Christ but the other thing John wrote about is the singular, specific one that is called Antichrist. He is not merely just one of the others. He is unique and he is the one that is most dangerous. He is called by many other names than Antichrist but Antichrist is the most used in Christianity.

The AC will be Satan, a supernatural being who will claim to be God, specifically Jesus Christ. He will have "powers" and will look like and present himself as Christ and that's how he is able to fool the world, even Christians. Most Christians as yourself are expecting a human AC and Satan knows this and will take advantage of it.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:




Now that just struck me as absurd for these reasons...Satan can parody the work of Christ through "all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9), but he cannot literally do what Christ did-namely, raise himself from the dead.What is at stake here is nothing less than the deity and resurrection of Christ.

The problem with such assumption is that there is no actual evidence to base that on. We don't know what amount of power Satan has. I think we can safely assume he doesn't out-power God since God wins in the end and I believe what powers Satan does have is only because God allows them but how much power has God allowed Satan to have? I believe it is ERROR to assume Satan cannot do this or that because God has granted him the power to deceive the world and that means Christianity because the Apostasy means a falling away from the true God to a false god and that can only occur to those that have the true God, Christians. God is going to allow a huge portion of Christianity to be deceived just like he allowed most of Israel to chase after false gods. When it comes down to it, God's people have always committed Adultery and the apostasy shall be no different.




IMHO, the notion that Satan can perform acts that are indistinguishable from genuine miracles suggests a dualistic worldview in which God and Satan are equal powers competing for dominance and also in that it attributes powers to the beast that belong only to God.


Are you prepared to deal with and face that? Or, will you just believe that Satan cannot do this or that?




So what is the scriptural basis that Satan has the ability to pull off a very real,world wide Rapture?

What is the scriptural basis he cannot? It would be a simple thing.

Remember this about the Antichrist:


2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

1: all power
2: and signs:
3: and lying wonders

He will use a combination of these three to make the Apostasy (those that have God to fall away from God) a reality. God will allow it.


2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,





What ever Satan is capable of..he is and remains on God's leash..so it would be consistent for Satan to attempt much greater schemes of deception and lawlessness as scripture has pointed our attention to during the Tribulation..but I am not familiar with this "ability" ever belonging to Satan at any time scripturally as one of the "signs and wonders"

You left out "all power". All power sounds pretty powerful don't you think?




At no time did Christ ever say he would return and "reinact' his death and ressurection either..so if some demonic clown is doing this , I believe that is not going to fool anyone except a fool...

Yes, only fools will believe it, and they will number in the Billions IMO.



I have no doubt's that Satan will indeed attempt a lot of parody miracles..to deceive those who are not aware of his tactics..but he never has had the powers that only belong to God.:confused

Sounds like you have nothing to worry about :)

ForceMajuere
Sep 16th 2007, 06:35 AM
"whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"


You left out "all power". All power sounds pretty powerful don't you think?





Yes, only fools will believe it, and they will number in the Billions IMO.




Sounds like you have nothing to worry about :)

Before we start attributing to Satan the omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence of God we need to understand what power Satan does have and what power he doesn't have.

In Matt. 12:24 Jesus was accused by the Scribes and Pharisees of "casting out demons by the prince of demons". Jesus refutes that by saying,"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out the devils, by whom do your childrren cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

But if I cast out devils by the kingdom of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."

Later, in vs. 31 He says,"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

In the parallel verse, Mark 3:29-30 it adds,"Because they said, "He hath an unclean spirit."

Please, do not attribute to Satan the works that God performs, healings, miracles, deliverences. These are the signs that the Holy Spirit, the Author of these signs, is with us. Jesus says in John 10:38,"But if I do, though ye believe not Me, believe the works: that ye may know that the Father is in Me and I in the Father."

To attribute them to Satan as well as God is to be in danger of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. God never has and never will lend His Throne to the devil; to believe that He has is the ultimate deception.

Now, to say that Satan is powerless is a lie as well; but understand that the miracles talked of are lying wonders. Why?

Because they lend the thought that they are being approved by God when the are not!

In Rev.13:13 it says,"And he doth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Now, you can interpert this text literally(historically/grammatically) and say that we are waiting for this guy who will make the appearance of fire come down from heaven-for my next magic trick.

Or, we can interpret the Truth of the text which means that just as Elijah called down fire from heaven, showing to the prophets of Baal who the True God was, this one will figuratively 'call down fire from heaven' to give the appearance of God's approval.

Here is a secret:

We are talking about the Anti-christ, which is opposite to the True Christ.

Christ is not Jesus's last name, it is literally 'Christos' or Annointed One.

The Anti-christ is the Anti-annointed, no true annointing can be attributed to him.

The works of healing, deliverence, miracles cannot come from this 'anti-annointing'.

The appearence of healing, deliverence, miraculous without the annointing of God is this one's domain.

Science performs these miracles! In the name of 'mankind' in the apparent approval of God.

The annointing of God perfectly heals, delivers, sets free. Much more than 'miracle drug therapy, anti-depressants, miracle surgery.

But, unless one's heart is set on God, one will continue to awe and wonder over the 'miracles of Modern Science' which only treat the body and not the soul and remain deceived about the condition of their heart.

Sincerely,
FM

Naphal
Sep 16th 2007, 06:43 AM
Christ is not Jesus's last name, it is literally 'Christos' or Annointed One.

That's not his "last name". Jesus has only a first name. Christ or Christos is a title that affirms that he is the anointed of God.

Steven3
Sep 16th 2007, 12:14 PM
Hi Dizzy
Why would He call us up to meet Him if He was going to come down anyway. Would He not just gather His church to Him in Jerusalem, He has the power to do that. Like in Matthew.I'm not sure I understand the question. You're saying why don't they come to Jerusalem by commercial airline? :confused One might as well ask why didn't God make Philip travel by foot to Azotus? Why instead "rapture" him there? I can only assume that gathering by Angel-Air makes more sense than by Northwest or United. Remember that when Christ spoke the Olivet prophecy airplanes and steamships hadn't been invented so angels were the only option.


The Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

Heaven>Air>Heavenhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I really don't want to get drawn into discussing Revelation, but the New Jerusalem is mentioned three times Revelation 3:12 21:2, 9 in each case with no hint that the New Jerusalem comes down halfway from heaven then goes back up to heaven. So for the time being I'll stick with "in like manner"
Acts 1:9 MtOlives>Air>Heaven
Acts 1:11 Heaven>Air>MtOlives
God bless you :)
Steven

DIZZY
Sep 16th 2007, 12:55 PM
Hi DizzyI'm not sure I understand the question. [quote]You're saying why don't they come to Jerusalem by commercial airline? :confused
Hi Steven,
No. I am saying they never came back to the earthly Jerusalem.


One might as well ask why didn't God make Philip travel by foot to Azotus? Why instead "rapture" him there?


If God could take Philip to Azotus don't you think he could just take the church to Jerusalem. He only has to say the word. But that is not what He did.


I can only assume that gathering by Angel-Air makes more sense than by Northwest or United. Remember that when Christ spoke the Olivet prophecy airplanes and steamships hadn't been invented so angels were the only option.

Great sense of humor Steven. :rolleyes:

I really don't want to get drawn into discussing Revelation, but the New Jerusalem is mentioned three times Revelation 3:12 21:2, 9 in each case with no hint that the New Jerusalem comes down halfway from heaven then goes back up to heaven. So for the time being I'll stick with "in like manner"


Revelation 3:12 this is still talking about the church (Christs bride).

Revelation 21:2,9 still talking about the bride and where is the New Jerusalem? Coming down out of heaven.

I never said the New Jerusalem comes down half way from heaven and then goes back.

What I said was The church is caught up to the Lamb and taken to the New Jerusalem.

Dizzyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Amazedgrace21
Sep 16th 2007, 01:46 PM
Naphal,

Thanks so much for coming back and responding to my request..I am going to print this out , as you said, it is a "long response" and give it very serious prayerful attention..I appreciate very much that you made the time and gave this so much effort!:hug:

YSIC,
Grace

PS..also thank you for correcting my ommission of the part about "all powers"..I picked up on that while I went back to do some studying..I am indeed concerned and in sincere search of what "extent of power" those "powers" entail..

Mograce2U
Sep 16th 2007, 04:17 PM
We don't need a physical human being in order to see a false Jesus at work by the power of Satan. Especially given that we do not see the real Jesus whom we worship in Spirit and in truth, in the flesh now either. Our faith lies in our belief and understanding of His Messiahship thru the words of the Father He spoke and the works of the Father which He did - the record God has given us of His Son.

The false Jesus however works by Satan thru lies and deceiving wonders, denying that the things we believe by faith are true. Doctrines of demons lead people to deny the virgin birth, the triune nature of our Lord, His death and resurrection, His kingship as Lord of lords, the reality of hell and that willful sin will be judged - plus much more. In effect, he counters every tenet of The Faith with the same tactic he used first in the Garden - "Hath God really said?", and then he brings in another "way" to look at what God has said.

We see too that he is able to perform "wonders" thru occultic means. The power behind the idol is a demon; he offers men health and wealth and false doctrines by which to achieve these things for those who worship him. He is able to bring ecstatic experiences and "spiritual" phenomenon thru visions and dreams and even statues that weep, bleed or speak.

The mark that is upon the idolator is seen in his sin of covetousness - which is what causes him to break those other five commands given to Moses for how we ought not to treat one another. It is a covetousness which is not just about material gain however, but one which thinks it can get God to serve him by what he does. This false pride that man has in himself is what gives the devil a foothold in his life - and in his thoughts, so that nothing he does is without this taint of self-centeredness.

The fire he is able to call down from heaven is the fire of judgment that will fall upon those men who listen to his lies.

HisLeast
Sep 16th 2007, 06:15 PM
It isn't disdain, it's concern. Yes they will change eschatology but the concern is that they also might change religions and fall away in the Apostasy. It is a poor time to believe so strongly in the pre-trib rapture and suddenly realize you had been wrong and have the Antichrist present to take advantage of that difficult time.

Concern is it? Was it our profound and loving concern that has seen the whole eschatology forum closed twice? Maybe there are a couple people have a genuine concern, but for the most part its disdain, and not very well hidden either. But back to your more cogent points...

" they also might change religions and fall away in the Apostasy "
And why won't post-tribbers be caught in the same apostasy? Where's your 'concern' for them?

It is a poor time to believe so strongly in the pre-trib rapture and suddenly realize you had been wrong and have the Antichrist present to take advantage of that difficult time

So, lets assume a pre-tribber is caught in the tribulation and knows it. Are you saying the Holy Spirit is powerless to give that pre-tribber the words to say. Is the Lord powerless to help his sheep endure?

So I got back to my first answer. The "danger" isn't believing in pre-trib or post-trib, a-trib, mid-trib, whatever-trib. The danger is in how these discussions sucks the love right out of our dialogues, and makes hypocrites of us all.

Mograce2U
Sep 16th 2007, 06:53 PM
HisLeast,

So I got back to my first answer. The "danger" isn't believing in pre-trib or post-trib, a-trib, mid-trib, whatever-trib. The danger is in how these discussions sucks the love right out of our dialogues, and makes hypocrites of us all.I couldn't rep you (again) for this one [and seeing you don't care much for my sense of humor], would you be surprised that I agree with you here?

quiet dove
Sep 16th 2007, 07:00 PM
Actually, the pre tribber doesnt have to wait to take a beating from the world, it gets pretty rough in here, out of love of course. But somehow some of us manage to hang on and not be shaken. Hmm, ............that must be faith.:eek:

Just for the record, I have been accused of:
--not understanding the Gospel to start with
--not believeing Christ was victorious on the cross
--blasphemy
--believing doctrines of devils
--believing a doctrine that was started by the vision of a "post trib" teenager, (something I have refuted over and over and have been ignored)
--believing there are two gospels and me not understanding either one of them
--not being capable of reading the Bible for myself
--denying the truth in the Bible and denying tha the Bible is infallible
--not to mention being weak in faith and easily fooled by false prophets
And all that from fellow brothers and sisters!
I think my faith along with most other pre tribbers is pretty strong, a lot stronger then we get credit for.


No, my joy remains steadfast in the character, integrity, promises that are sustained by who and what my Savior is. My joy in knowing that at any moment, one way or another, I could see my Savior. I dont know why those anticipating enduring the tribulation are waiting, get on a plane, fly to China or the Middle East and jump on in to the persecution that you are so prepared to endure. Why wait, is it only the tribulation saints that are worthy of your sacrifice? Load up a bunch of food and get on a plane!! Apparently no post tribbers are any more in a hurry to suffer persecution that any pre tribber. The ones already in mission fields across the earth risking their lives are the heros, none of us are. Al those already risking their lives, I wonder which they would choose, all the rest of the believers joining them or being rapture and taken, in the twinkling of an eye. I know which I would want if I were sitting in prison right now for my faith!

I am still curoius and my question remains unanswered Naphal, how is you so easily believe Satan can resurrect the dead saints, call living saints to the air, give them incoruptible bodies? yet you give him no credit for being able to create false signs and wonders that imitate the Second Coming? Surely if he can do the former he is capable of the latter.

jesuslover1968
Sep 16th 2007, 11:58 PM
Just for the record, I have been accused of:
--not understanding the Gospel to start with
--not believeing Christ was victorious on the cross
--blasphemy
--believing doctrines of devils
--believing a doctrine that was started by the vision of a "post trib" teenager, (something I have refuted over and over and have been ignored)
--believing there are two gospels and me not understanding either one of them
--not being capable of reading the Bible for myself
--denying the truth in the Bible and denying tha the Bible is infallible
--not to mention being weak in faith and easily fooled by false prophets
And all that from fellow brothers and sisters!
I think my faith along with most other pre tribbers is pretty strong, a lot stronger then we get credit for.


I have to address this...lol....cause I have been told much the same thing, and sometimes not in as nice a way...:lol:
I will try to get my post up soon of how I think it's all gonna go.

My heart's Desire
Sep 17th 2007, 03:49 AM
This is kind of a "besides the point" question, but if the last day judgements are as horrible as we believe them to be (and I believe they will be) then how on earth will people be marrying, eating, drinking, grinding at the mill (normal) every day things, etc before the Lord comes as stated in Matthew 24? You know...while the water can't be drunk, the antichrist is here, hailstones falling, earthquakes etc. It has got to be a timing thing and infomational thing of some sort for the Lord does say that it happens this way as far as timing.
Sorry, don't mean to sidetrack. Ek, it is late. I can't even say what I'm trying to say! :) ahhh, what was the question?

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 05:28 AM
Naphal,

Thanks so much for coming back and responding to my request..I am going to print this out , as you said, it is a "long response" and give it very serious prayerful attention..I appreciate very much that you made the time and gave this so much effort!:hug:

YSIC,
Grace

PS..also thank you for correcting my ommission of the part about "all powers"..I picked up on that while I went back to do some studying..I am indeed concerned and in sincere search of what "extent of power" those "powers" entail..


Thank you and I am glad you are enjoying so far. Please take your time and respond back to me when you can. I believe it is important to understand the possibilities concerning the extent and amount of power God grants Satan. I think most people underestimate what God has allowed him to become and is why he has done so much harm.

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 05:36 AM
Concern is it?

Yes.




" they also might change religions and fall away in the Apostasy "
And why won't post-tribbers be caught in the same apostasy? Where's your 'concern' for them?


I won't answer this because I said very clearly that this thread is only for discussing the dangers of the pre-trib. If you wish to start a thread about post-trib, and let me know of it, I will respond there.



The danger is in how these discussions sucks the love right out of our dialogues, and makes hypocrites of us all.

I have seen love and true concern shown by most in this thread. I can't say the same about your post however. True love and concern for ones soul is the basis behind spreading the gospel, teaching truth and reaching people. I honestly believe there is extreme danger in the pre-trib doctrine. I pray for a revival and a shift in the church from this doctrine to one that I believe is scripturally sound and is less likely to lead someone into deception. It isn't the only doctrine I am concerned with but in this thread it is the subject and topic. Instead of being so insulted and defensive why not accept the concerns graciously and then start a thread where you share your true and honest concerns?

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 05:41 AM
I am still curoius and my question remains unanswered Naphal, how is you so easily believe Satan can resurrect the dead saints, call living saints to the air, give them incoruptible bodies? yet you give him no credit for being able to create false signs and wonders that imitate the Second Coming? Surely if he can do the former he is capable of the latter.

I haven't commented on the second because I don't want that discussion a part of this thread. Please start a thread on dangers of the post-trib and alert me to it and I will comment. Please do not assume I don't see dangers in other positions than just the pre-trib.

As for the first question, I believe the Antichrist is actually going to be Satan and scripture says he is given "all power and signs and lying wonders" to make the Apostasy come to fruition.

ForceMajuere
Sep 17th 2007, 05:13 PM
This is kind of a "besides the point" question, but if the last day judgements are as horrible as we believe them to be (and I believe they will be) then how on earth will people be marrying, eating, drinking, grinding at the mill (normal) every day things, etc before the Lord comes as stated in Matthew 24? You know...while the water can't be drunk, the antichrist is here, hailstones falling, earthquakes etc. It has got to be a timing thing and infomational thing of some sort for the Lord does say that it happens this way as far as timing.
Sorry, don't mean to sidetrack. Ek, it is late. I can't even say what I'm trying to say! :) ahhh, what was the question?

True.

Judgements don't all happen 'at once' or on a literal '7' year theological time grid. They don't happen at the same time all over the world.

God wants the world to repent; you notice at the end of many of them,"and they repented not". He desires that none shall perish, but that all will have eternal life.

This is why the church must be here, it is to show the way of salvation to a sin sick, dying world.

Sincerely,
FM

quiet dove
Sep 17th 2007, 08:48 PM
I haven't commented on the second because I don't want that discussion a part of this thread. Please start a thread on dangers of the post-trib and alert me to it and I will comment. Please do not assume I don't see dangers in other positions than just the pre-trib.

As for the first question, I believe the Antichrist is actually going to be Satan and scripture says he is given "all power and signs and lying wonders" to make the Apostasy come to fruition.

Based on your statements in previous post I would think it a legitimate question.



post 9 by you
Personally number 4 is my strongest concern but I see your point in the rest.
Number 4 being in post 8 (by another poster):
4. the fourth problem might be that "false messiahs" can take advantage of the "invisible coming" idea. Christ's coming is only known to an elite initiated into the mystery. Yet Christ said if someone comes and says 'he is in secret chambers' don't listen, don't go out.


post 7 by you
Do you think there is any chance that Satan could exploit that belief and cause some possible deception? I am worried that the Antichrist could provide a very real and similar imitation of a rapture to satisfy someone.

post 139 by you
I believe it is ERROR to assume Satan cannot do this (raise himself from the dead) or that because God has granted him the power to deceive the world and that means Christianity because the Apostasy means a falling away from the true God to a false god and that can only occur to those that have the true God, Christians. God is going to allow a huge portion of Christianity to be deceived just like he allowed most of Israel to chase after false gods. When it comes down to it, God's people have always committed Adultery and the apostasy shall be no different.

What is the scriptural basis he cannot? It would be a simple thing. (to imitate a world wide rapture)


It is very clearly implied that Satan's ability with signs and wonders you fear he could imitate the rapture, is not imitating the Second Advent of Christ just as real a threat within the context, irreguardless of pre or post trib?

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 10:24 PM
It is very clearly implied that Satan's ability with signs and wonders you fear he could imitate the rapture, is not imitating the Second Advent of Christ just as real a threat within the context, irreguardless of pre or post trib?

It is the pre trib position that sets people up to look for Jesus before the Antichrist comes which makes it easier for them to be deceived since they expect not to have to face the Antichrist. At least the post trib belief warns that the deception comes first before Christ returns and that lines up with whatPaul taught concerning Jesus not returning until after the Antichrist has been revealed. Being post trib doesn't guarantee one not to be deceived as there are many other things to be mistaken about but it is less dangerous than pre-trib which is IMO the doctrine that aids the Apostasy. Keep in mind God has allowed this great falling away to occur.

quiet dove
Sep 18th 2007, 04:02 AM
It is the pre trib position that sets people up to look for Jesus before the Antichrist comes which makes it easier for them to be deceived since they expect not to have to face the Antichrist. At least the post trib belief warns that the deception comes first before Christ returns and that lines up with whatPaul taught concerning Jesus not returning until after the Antichrist has been revealed. Being post trib doesn't guarantee one not to be deceived as there are many other things to be mistaken about but it is less dangerous than pre-trib which is IMO the doctrine that aids the Apostasy. Keep in mind God has allowed this great falling away to occur.

It does not set people up to look for Jesus on the earth, but to be called to Him, therefore there is no man going to convince me that he is Christ if his feet on on this earth, period. Even if there is not a pre trib rapture I nor most pre tribbers would be fool enough to say "oops, that guy walking around must be Jesus" simply because there has been no rapture.
The pre trib rapture is not teaching any return of Christ but a calling away of His people, therefore, either we will be taken from the earth, by no means of our own, or we will be here for the tribulation. Either way, the AC will not be accepted. Jesus isnt going to be walking around saying accept me and get raptured so there is no further decision to be made on the part of the believer. It will just happen, so there is no making the wrong choice and being decieved by the AC.

I disagree with your interpretation of the apostacy.....but....since you brought it up.:)

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
apostacy - 1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

If one is truly in Christ, and is truly the temple of God, then there will be no Satan sitting in that temple. Only those who “profess” to be believers but in reality are not could be apart of the apostacy.

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 04:43 AM
The pre trib rapture is not teaching any return of Christ but a calling away of His people, therefore, either we will be taken from the earth, by no means of our own, or we will be here for the tribulation.


The pre-trib teaches a secret return of Christ to rapture the church. I believe the Antichrist will take advantage of that belief in fact I believe Satan is the one who inspired that doctrine in the first place.




Either way, the AC will not be accepted.

That's not what Paul says. The Antichrist will be accepted and so many will fall away from God and Christ to him that it is called a falling away, Apostasy in the Greek.


Jesus isnt going to be walking around saying accept me and get raptured so there is no further decision to be made on the part of the believer. It will just happen, so there is no making the wrong choice and being decieved by the AC.

Yes I understand that is what is believed but I believe it won't be that cut and dry.



I disagree with your interpretation of the apostacy.....but....since you brought it up.:)

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
apostacy - 1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

If one is truly in Christ, and is truly the temple of God, then there will be no Satan sitting in that temple. Only those who “profess” to be believers but in reality are not could be apart of the apostacy.


Sorry but the Apostasy isn't comprised of fake Christians who never were true Christians anyways. That's not what the word means. It means for those who actually are Christians to fall away to another god. They won't know it's a false Jesus until it's too late. They will believe the entire time that they were faithful. That's what Apostasy is. Perhaps that will help explain why people like me are so concerned for those that believe in the pre-trib. We believe it is a unique time of danger that God allows, where Christians can be deceived into falling away from Christ.

My heart's Desire
Sep 18th 2007, 04:56 AM
True.

Judgements don't all happen 'at once' or on a literal '7' year theological time grid. They don't happen at the same time all over the world.

God wants the world to repent; you notice at the end of many of them,"and they repented not". He desires that none shall perish, but that all will have eternal life.

This is why the church must be here, it is to show the way of salvation to a sin sick, dying world.

Sincerely,
FM

I don't know if the judgements happen the same time all over the world, but I believe the "they repented not" is there is to show that is why the judgements are there to begin with. It is judgement on an unbelieving world.
It shows that even in judgement they do NOT repent.
Of course I do agree that God does want all to be saved who will. I like to believe that He is very longsuffering in that regards, as scripture says that He is longsuffering. I don't neccessarily think that it has to be the church during that time to show Him to people.
Romans says that what is known about God is evident within them for God made it evident to them. Sorry, that is outside the scope of the question. I will think further on your comment in a thoughtful way. :)

third hero
Sep 18th 2007, 05:02 PM
I will post this on both threads dealing with this question of th dangers of pre-trib POV.

Yaqub, a contributor, left me a post with this linkl to it. http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/isa.html . IN it, it showsd clearly why all who believe in the POst-trib POV are so afraid of those believing in the pre-trib POV will fall into the hands of the man of sin. Here's an exerpt that I believe that everyone should read.

It is important to remember that in Islam, Isa, also known as Isa ibn Mary (Jesus son of Mary), is not regarded as the Son of God, and Islam denies that Jesus is God come in the flesh. Moreover, Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross, but that Allah had someone else put on the cross, so that many Jews and Christians have been misled. Instead, Muslims believe that Isa was taken into heaven without dying and that He is now in heaven. He is then supposed to descend from heaven at the Last Days and correct all the mistakes in Christianity (i.e., that Jesus taught about Islam, not the Christianity we see today), thereby causing many Christians to abandon Christianity and become Muslims. Even though Isa retains the title of Messiah in Islam, it is essentially devoid of the Messianic meanings in the Bible. However the messianic element is present in his coming in the End Times, albeit in a very different and unexpected form. Just as the Jesus in Islam and the Jesus in Christianity are very different, so we shall also see that the Isa that is to come in the End Times will be very different from the description of the second coming of Jesus.

If this is not a direct relationship to the "oh well, I was wrong" way of taking the disappointment of there being no rapture before the beginning of th Great Tribulation, then I do not know what is.

Mograce2U
Sep 18th 2007, 05:32 PM
Making One's Calling and Election Sure
(2 Pet 1:3-11 KJV) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: {4} Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. {5} And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; {6} And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; {7} And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. {8} For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {9} But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. {10} Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: {11} For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Here we find our instruction for how to be victorious thru any trial so that we will not fall in it. The idea that a tribulation is coming which is so fearsome that we must do something other than what this passage says lest we fall away, is contrary to what scripture says is possible regardless of what we face - even facing death. The testimonies of the martyrs are proof of that. The battle we are in is a spiritual battle to which no earthly trouble can compare.

What could cause us to fall however, is if these things above are not what we are diligent about doing. If we are serving Christ by loving the brethren then we will be strong in the faith and overcome. This is where spiritual deception comes into play. You cannot deceive one who is holding to truth and following Christ. You can however deceive one who is not. No true follower of Christ will succumb to an idol if he is following the Lord in this way. We hold fast to truth by holding fast to love because we are trusting in Christ to bring us thru. Goodness is what overcomes evil.

The only Christian who is in danger of falling away from the faith to follow an idol is one who does not yet know where his strength lies, and is seeking after his power in some other fashion. This has already invaded Christendom and is spreading in leaps and bounds. False doctrine leads one into sin and gives the devil a foothold in his life; whereas sound doctrine leads one to a life of love as he grows in his knowledge of Christ and His goodness.

The only anti-christ we must face and recognize for who he is - is the false Christ in which we believe that causes us to deny the true Christ and turn back to unbelief as we deny what He has wrought in us. This is the only thing that can turn one into an apostate and mark us as idolators. No evil earthly monarch is going to do that - but the devil? Well he does try... Little children flee idolatry! Why? because that is what will deceive you and lead you astray from your hope in Christ.

The idol that sits in the temple of God is the one you let into your heart whom you call "Jesus", but who is not the Lord. He is spawned by listening to doctrines of demons which deceive you to think that you have power with God by the things you do which in reality only serve the flesh. You see him everywhere in the world among men who are trusting in themselves. Who, if they feared God, would humble themselves and repent.

True humility sees Jesus on the throne ruling and reigning in our heart. What makes us self-righteous and proud of ourselves however is because we are worshipping another Jesus, brought to us by another gospel whose spirit is not holy. This is what we need to be able to discern. Not from news headlines, but by believing the record we have been given of His Son. This is what was revealed to John and our study of it ought to bring us to a greater knowledge of the true Jesus - which seeking after how to identify an imposter in the world will never accomplish. Satan hides himself from our view but not from our minds.

Which is WHY we are told to put our eyes (minds) on things above and not upon the things of this world which are passing away (Col 3:2).

If you are looking to the world to find your hope in Christ, you will miss the mark, and fail to fulfill the high calling of Christ Jesus upon your life. Worldliness with its self-centered focus is the mark of idolatry that is already upon those who are headed for destruction. While those who are headed for the kingdom of God have learned that mercy born of love is the way to find Life.

The danger that exists in any teaching we embrace is whether it is pulling us away or leading us to know Christ better as scripture and the Holy Spirit reveals Him to us. Nothing can replace the need to be a good Berean and search out the truth for yourself.

quiet dove
Sep 18th 2007, 09:35 PM
Naphal
To separate this sentence from the paragraph is to take it completely out of context!!

“Either way, the AC will not be accepted.”

“The pre trib rapture is not teaching any return of Christ but a calling away of His people, therefore, either we will be taken from the earth, by no means of our own, or we will be here for the tribulation. Either way, the AC will not be accepted. Jesus isnt going to be walking around saying accept me and get raptured so there is no further decision to be made on the part of the believer. It will just happen, so there is no making the wrong choice and being decieved by the AC.”


That's not what Paul says. The Antichrist will be accepted and so many will fall away from God and Christ to him that it is called a falling away, Apostasy in the Greek.


Sorry but the Apostasy isn't comprised of fake Christians who never were true Christians anyways. That's not what the word means. It means for those who actually are Christians to fall away to another god. They won't know it's a false Jesus until it's too late. They will believe the entire time that they were faithful. That's what Apostasy is. Perhaps that will help explain why people like me are so concerned for those that believe in the pre-trib. We believe it is a unique time of danger that God allows, where Christians can be deceived into falling away from Christ.

I understand that the majority will accept the false, but those who are truly Christ will not, limiting the usage and complete definition of apostacyIMO is causing contradiction with other scriptures, some I already stated, but ones such as this.

Joh 10:4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him. For they know his voice. 5 And they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you, 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one!

The definition of apostacy
1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

It can mean either and within other scripture we are told that Christ will loose none of His own. Even for the true believer, apostacy requires a willful decision to deny Christ. And for you to assume that because a pre tribber had misunderstood when the rapture would occur they would simply deny Christ all together is something you need to show caution with and ask yourself, what would you do if you found yourself in those shoes? Would you simply deny Christ all together because you misunderstood something taught in the Bible?


The pre-trib teaches a secret return of Christ to rapture the church. I believe the Antichrist will take advantage of that belief in fact I believe Satan is the one who inspired that doctrine in the first place.


It is hardly a secret, google it and see how much a “secret” it is.

This takes us back to my original question, one you have not answered in this thread or the thread this one sprang off of. Should I start a thread addressing this particular question in order for you to answer it? And don’t just tell me that Jesus said not to be fooled, because we both already know that and like I have said, if Satan can fool a person on way, whats to keep him from fooling him in another way?

My question again:
If it is possible for Satan to imitate and fake the rapture, surely it is possible for him to do the same in making people believe Jesus has returned. I will never believe it possible for Satan to resurrect the dead believers and along with them, give the alive ones an resurrected, incorruptible, body.

The only way Satan could even attemp a fake rapture would be to wipe every believer off the face of the earth, in which case you would be included and dead just like all us pre tribbers. And either way, dead by Satans acts or raptured by Christ, we would not be here for the tribulation, I am going with Christ at His trumpet call for the rapture.

third hero
Sep 18th 2007, 09:55 PM
Mograce2u,
I totally agree with you, especially your first two paragraphs. It truly is a spiritual battle, one in which we must be prepared for. THe purpose of many post-tribbers is to show all believers that we must be prepared by going to the Lord honestly, wholeheartedly, and earnestly, (diligently) seeking after Him. This includes learning His commandments (Christ's words found within the pages of the Gospel {no, I am not a Judaizer!}) and following them. This includes loving your neighbor as yourself, loving each other as He has loved us, and a myriad of other commandments that Christ specifically taught us. This is the only way to overcome and defeat the beast, and every other tribulation that comes about.

It is the fear of many post-tribbers that the idea of Christ swooping in and taking us out of here before the great test is that this results in causing believers to become wimpy in their faith. They kick back their feet in complacency, thinking that they have nothing to worry about, since God will get us before all of the tribulations that Christ told us about will not happen to them. It is the purpose of every believer to encourage each other in the faith, and that includes exorting each other. "Like iron sharpening iron" is the phrase I hear a lot, especially when it comes to strong believers gathering and fellowshipping with each other. We need to be prepared.

Let the truth ber told, Christ told us that tribulations will come where all nations will hate us on His account. It is beginning to happen in the West right now, and it has been happening in the East for the last 100 years. I believe that the pre-trib POV will cause many to fall by the wayside, just as Christ foretold in Matthew 24:10-14. And this is not even THE Great Tribulation.

What will happen when the progressives gain control of the US and begin their extermination of Christianity as they have been orchestrating for the last 20 years? Who will stand? And this is NOT even the Great Tribulation, but a tribulation nevertheless. The pre-trib POV leaves one weak, and not diligently seeking after the Lord Jesus. There are exceptions, but the rule, as I have witnessed it, is that many have become complacent. I even look back to the last great tribulation that Christianity faced, which was the Bolshavik Revolution in 1907-1910. The pre-trib POV was preached in the Russian churches clear until the Bolshaviks begun the Great Russian Tribulation. (BTW, do not think that Russia is going to get away with killing millions of believers, because they will not.) Many Russian "belivers" betrayed and turn each other into the government at that time. And just as many walked away from the faith. I do not want to see the same thing happen worldwide.

I thank God that the Chinese believers and the ones on the Indonesian Islands were spiritually prepared to undergo the tribulations that they are facing right now. Maybe we all can learn a thing or two from them about being spiritually prepared.

cwb
Sep 18th 2007, 10:38 PM
It is the fear of many post-tribbers that the idea of Christ swooping in and taking us out of here before the great test is that this results in causing believers to become wimpy in their faith.


Now I am wimpy because I am pre-trib.

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 11:13 PM
Naphal
To separate this sentence from the paragraph is to take it completely out of context!!

“Either way, the AC will not be accepted.”

I disagree with that.



“ limiting the usage and complete definition of apostacyIMO is causing contradiction with other scriptures,


We can't redefine Apostasy to fit our beliefs. It means what it means. Addressed to Christians by Paul, Apostasy means to fall away from Christ.




some I already stated, but ones such as this.

Joh 10:4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him. For they know his voice. 5 And they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you, 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one!


The Apostasy is a time where the above doesn't apply. The tribulation period is a time of TESTING to test one's ability to follow Christ by having a false Christ present.




The definition of apostacy
1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

It can mean either and within other scripture we are told that Christ will loose none of His own.


There is no "either" as if there are two choices. All parts of that definition have the same meaning. I believe you are misusing "professed" to mean something not intended in this definition. The Apostasy has nothing to do with fake Christians suddenly giving up calling themselves Christians. That would not be an Apostasy because you call fall away from Christ if you didn't have him already.



Even for the true believer, apostacy requires a willful decision to deny Christ.

No, it doesn't have to be willful. It can be done through deception and that's exactly how it shall be done.




And for you to assume that because a pre tribber had misunderstood when the rapture would occur they would simply deny Christ all together is something you need to show caution with and ask yourself, what would you do if you found yourself in those shoes? Would you simply deny Christ all together because you misunderstood something taught in the Bible?

That's not how the Apostasy occurs. No one will know they are committing it.




It is hardly a secret, google it and see how much a “secret” it is.

Not a secret in that sense. Secret as in Christ will come and rapture people withiut the world knowing. They will only realize it when so many people have disappeared. Christ isn't going to actually do that but that's what the pre-trib doctrine teaches.




This takes us back to my original question, one you have not answered in this thread or the thread this one sprang off of. Should I start a thread addressing this particular question in order for you to answer it?

I asked you to alert me to it.



And don’t just tell me that Jesus said not to be fooled, because we both already know that and like I have said, if Satan can fool a person on way, whats to keep him from fooling him in another way?

Being prepared with the warnings of Christ and Paul etc against the concept of a pre-trib rapture is the answer. Believing differently than they taught is where the danger begins.





My question again:
If it is possible for Satan to imitate and fake the rapture, surely it is possible for him to do the same in making people believe Jesus has returned.


I believe he will try many things but if one obeys the command of Christ, they cannot be deceived. He said "believe it not". Never believe that Christ has returned and you won't be deceived.




I will never believe it possible for Satan to resurrect the dead believers and along with them, give the alive ones an resurrected, incorruptible, body.

And I will never believe it is impossible for God to allow Satan to do this to cause the Apostasy. God allows him "all power" among other things to do this. This is the greatest test God will ever give us.




The only way Satan could even attemp a fake rapture would be to wipe every believer off the face of the earth, in which case you would be included and dead just like all us pre tribbers. And either way, dead by Satans acts or raptured by Christ, we would not be here for the tribulation, I am going with Christ at His trumpet call for the rapture.


I know you will...

DIZZY
Sep 19th 2007, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceMajuere http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1384246#post1384246)
True.

Judgements don't all happen 'at once' or on a literal '7' year theological time grid. They don't happen at the same time all over the world.

God wants the world to repent; you notice at the end of many of them,"and they repented not". He desires that none shall perish, but that all will have eternal life.

This is why the church must be here, it is to show the way of salvation to a sin sick, dying world.

Sincerely,
FM


Hi ForceMajuere,

I would like to say I do not believe the church will be here. Because God has promised to keep his faithful church from the hour of testing.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

And judgment does happen around the whole world not just in one little place.

Revelation 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

We know who is able to stand in this verse, it is the 144,000 Jews that were taken and hidden by God himself. After the taking away of the church.

1 thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Then the Jews believe in their Messiah and God saves them. They are not going to escape the tribulation but they will be witness for Christ in the world. And we must remember the Holy Spirit will still be at work in the world. God does not remove the Holy Spirit.

So you see it is not the church who will witness to the world it is the 144,000 Jews who were preserved for this time. Praise God that there is a second chance for those who are left behind.:pp

Dizzy:amen:

ForceMajuere
Sep 20th 2007, 04:01 AM
Hi ForceMajuere,

I would like to say I do not believe the church will be here. Because God has promised to keep his faithful church from the hour of testing.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

And judgment does happen around the whole world not just in one little place.

Revelation 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

We know who is able to stand in this verse, it is the 144,000 Jews that were taken and hidden by God himself. After the taking away of the church.

1 thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Then the Jews believe in their Messiah and God saves them. They are not going to escape the tribulation but they will be witness for Christ in the world. And we must remember the Holy Spirit will still be at work in the world. God does not remove the Holy Spirit.

So you see it is not the church who will witness to the world it is the 144,000 Jews who were preserved for this time. Praise God that there is a second chance for those who are left behind.:pp

Dizzy:amen:

If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.

Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!

What could Jesus have meant by that statement?

Sincerely,
FM

Naphal
Sep 20th 2007, 04:25 AM
If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.

Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!

What could Jesus have meant by that statement?

Sincerely,
FM

More importantly, how can anyone be put to death if there was a rapture before this occurs? Some will say the tribulation saints but there is no such distinction by Christ. Christ addresses his followers, not the followers left over from the rapture.

third hero
Sep 20th 2007, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceMajuere http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1384246#post1384246)
Hi ForceMajuere,

I would like to say I do not believe the church will be here. Because God has promised to keep his faithful church from the hour of testing.


So, what did Christ mean when He said this:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

That does not look like the church will not have to deal with trials, since Jesus promised that we SHALL have tribulations.

Now the part in Revelation that mentions that that particular church, because of the persecutions that it already faced, that Christ is going to keep them from the hour of testing, I have one question for you. Is that church around today? If it is not, then that prop[hecy has already passed, since that church is not around to be persecuted when the Hour of Trial comes.

But do not be mistaken, the church is going to be going through Tribulation, and the Lord mandates this. We are to be tested and proven true in His sight. This is why one MUST learn th commandments of Christ Jesus, and practice in keeping them. They are the way to everlasting life. Waffling will cause one such as yourself to fall to any form of deception, including one that a man will show heavenly signs, calling himself God, telling you to wear his seal on either your forehead or right hand.

DIZZY
Sep 20th 2007, 10:35 AM
If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.

[QUOTE]Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."



Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!

What could Jesus have meant by that statement?


Don't beleieve because of something I say believe because you have been convict by the Holy Spirit of the truth.

John 8:32
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

But if I must give an answer, here it is.

This was not a promise for the preservation of their physical lives, but a guarantee that they would suffer no eternal loss. God Himself sovereignly preserves His own. The truth of these verses seems to be, " By your endurance you will gain your lives," refering to the final aspect of salvation,namely, glorification. Mat 24:13

I hope this helps you.

Dizzy:bible:

DIZZY
Sep 20th 2007, 11:12 AM
So, what did Christ mean when He said this:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

That does not look like the church will not have to deal with trials, since Jesus promised that we SHALL have tribulations.


Now the part in Revelation that mentions that that particular church, because of the persecutions that it already faced, that Christ is going to keep them from the hour of testing,

There is no mention about persecutions in this verse. It is because they have persevered they will be kept from the hour of testing.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


I have one question for you. Is that church around today? If it is not, then that prop[hecy has already passed, since that church is not around to be persecuted when the Hour of Trial comes.

Yes I believe the faithful church is around today. Even though the church is being persecuted all over the world it is still growing and it's faith remains in Christ.



But do not be mistaken, the church is going to be going through Tribulation, and the Lord mandates this. We are to be tested and proven true in His sight. This is why one MUST learn th commandments of Christ Jesus, and practice in keeping them. They are the way to everlasting life. Waffling will cause one such as yourself to fall to any form of deception, including one that a man will show heavenly signs, calling himself God, telling you to wear his seal on either your forehead or right hand.


Do you think by keeping the commandments of Christ are going to save you. I don't think so.

Isaiah 64:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=64&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

I am saved by faith in what Christ has done for me not His commands. I keep His commands because I love Him not because they might save my life.

How can one be deceived if one nows the truth.

John 8:32
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Dizzy:bible:

dworthington
Sep 20th 2007, 12:12 PM
If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.

Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!

What could Jesus have meant by that statement?

Sincerely,
FM

In your Luke referance, Jesus is talking to Jews, the church does not appear until after the cross.

ForceMajuere
Sep 20th 2007, 12:14 PM
Don't beleieve because of something I say believe because you have been convict by the Holy Spirit of the truth.

John 8:32
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

But if I must give an answer, here it is.

This was not a promise for the preservation of their physical lives, but a guarantee that they would suffer no eternal loss. God Himself sovereignly preserves His own. The truth of these verses seems to be, " By your endurance you will gain your lives," refering to the final aspect of salvation,namely, glorification. Mat 24:13

I hope this helps you.

Dizzy:bible:
If you believe in a God who can keep you from eternal destruction, though your body may undergo temporal destruction,

Then you can believe in a God who will 'keep' a church from the hour of temptation, though they may encounter physical discomfort.
John 17:15,"I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Sincerely,
FM

DIZZY
Sep 20th 2007, 12:24 PM
If you believe in a God who can keep you from eternal destruction, though your body may undergo temporal destruction,

Then you can believe in a God who will 'keep' a church from the hour of temptation, though they may encounter physical discomfort.
John 17:15,"I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Sincerely,
FM


Jesus was asking God to Keep their faith strong, and not to let the evil one turn them away from the truth.

Dizzy:bible:

third hero
Sep 20th 2007, 02:00 PM
Do you think by keeping the commandments of Christ are going to save you. I don't think so.

Isaiah 64:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=64&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

I am saved by faith in what Christ has done for me not His commands. I keep His commands because I love Him not because they might save my life.

How can one be deceived if one nows the truth.

John 8:32
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Dizzy:bible:
Ok, here is the truth for you.

HEED THE COMMANDMENTS OF CHRIST!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt 7:21

If ye love me, keep my commandments. -John 14:15

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. _Matt 24:45-47

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matt 7:24-27

I think I have made my point. According to Christ Himself, the one whom you, Dizzy, profess to follow, commands us to be obedient to Him. He likens one who does so as a wise person; and also the one that does not is likened to a fool.


Do you think by keeping the commandments of Christ are going to save you. I don't think so.
THIS IS A FOOLISH STATEMENT! This statement contradicts direct commandments that Christ Himself gave us through the original Disciples, who gave us these Gospel accounts.

My retort to you is this: If you think that by just stating that Jesus is Lord and that's all there is to be saved, I have news for you. It's not going to get you anywhere.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -Matthew 7:22-23

No work is a good work, unless one is in obedience to Lord Jesus. Period.

In truth, feelings mean nothing. Obedience to Him is what really matters, no feelings included. What really bothers me in these posts are that many people here use their feeloings to judge the temr "love". According to Christ Himself, love is tied to obedience. Obedience is the sign of loving God. it is obedience that shows love, not the other way around. I obey Him, therefore I love Him.

My heart's Desire
Sep 20th 2007, 08:59 PM
If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.

Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!

What could Jesus have meant by that statement?

Sincerely,
FM
Perhaps because it should be read as:
Ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren and kinfolks and friends and some of you they cause to be put to death:
(those betrayed may be caused to be put to death)

And yet shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake, but there shall not one hair on your head perish.
(Not one hair will perish on the head of those who are hated of all men)
In the first part of the statement it refers to some who are betrayed and the second part talks of others who are hated for his name sake.

DIZZY
Sep 20th 2007, 09:07 PM
Ok, here is the truth for you.

HEED THE COMMANDMENTS OF CHRIST!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt 7:21

If ye love me, keep my commandments. -John 14:15

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. _Matt 24:45-47

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matt 7:24-27

I think I have made my point. According to Christ Himself, the one whom you, Dizzy, profess to follow, commands us to be obedient to Him. He likens one who does so as a wise person; and also the one that does not is likened to a fool.


THIS IS A FOOLISH STATEMENT! This statement contradicts direct commandments that Christ Himself gave us through the original Disciples, who gave us these Gospel accounts.

My retort to you is this: If you think that by just stating that Jesus is Lord and that's all there is to be saved, I have news for you. It's not going to get you anywhere.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -Matthew 7:22-23

No work is a good work, unless one is in obedience to Lord Jesus. Period.

In truth, feelings mean nothing. Obedience to Him is what really matters, no feelings included. What really bothers me in these posts are that many people here use their feeloings to judge the temr "love". According to Christ Himself, love is tied to obedience. Obedience is the sign of loving God. it is obedience that shows love, not the other way around. I obey Him, therefore I love Him.

Hi Third Hero,



I am saved by faith in what Christ has done for me not His commands. I keep His commands because I love Him not because they might save my life.



As I said I keep His commands because I love Him.

James 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
[ Faith Without Works Is Dead ] What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Your faith shows your works, don't forget the verse that teaches we are saved by faith.

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So do you keep His commandments because you love Him? or
Do you keep His commandments because by keeping them you believe you will be saved?

Salvation is not of works, it is by faith and because of faith, you obey His commandments.

1 Peter 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;

Being a child of God and having the Holy Spirit to guide me I no longer want to do the things my old flesh wants to do. I do the things God wants me to do. Because He loved me first I can love Him and obey Him.

I still war with the members of my flesh, but I never give it hold.
I am an obedient child and I follow His commands, I am a faithful servent, but once again doing this does not save my soul because then salvation is by works not grace.

Dizzy:bible:

Steven3
Sep 20th 2007, 09:43 PM
Hi FM :)
Originally Posted by ForceMajuere
If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.
Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."
Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!
What could Jesus have meant by that statement?
Sincerely,
FM



Presumably we will no longer be bald in the resurrection. That's good news for some of us :)
S.

Lampstands1383
Sep 21st 2007, 12:21 AM
The biggest danger is people loosing faith in the Lord because he didn't pre rapture anyone. If your brother or loved one dies during tribulation will you fall away from the Lord and think that you missed out on the rapture.One of my big problems with the pre rapture is that mankind could easily fall away from the Lord if post trib teachings wernt taught to everyone. When suffering comes will you fall away from the Lord or will you keep your faith.

The rapture happens when Jesus our Lord returns to claim this earth with his anointed scripture is very clear our Lord returns during the Last trumpet or 7 th trumpet.

Every one alive should be praying for the seal of God in the Forehead this is the only way you will be safe during the great tribulation. Not to many people have even herd about the Seal of God in the forehead. This is the Gift from God that Keeps you safe during his wrath on those mark with 666.


The followers of our Lord Jesus will receive the seal of God in the Forehead to protect them from Gods wrath the Seven plagues.Also manipulating scripture to add to the bible is a huge No No and Gods wrath is already being poured out depending on were you live. it seems pre rapture country has been hit hard within the last three months flooding rains every month.

Zechariah 10

The LORD Will Care for Judah

1 Ask the LORD for rain in the springtime;
it is the LORD who makes the storm clouds.
He gives showers of rain to men,
and plants of the field to everyone.

2 The idols speak deceit,
diviners see visions that lie;
they tell dreams that are false,
they give comfort in vain.
Therefore the people wander like sheep
oppressed for lack of a shepherd. 3 "My anger burns against the shepherds,
and I will punish the leaders;
for the LORD Almighty will care
for his flock, the house of Judah,
and make them like a proud horse in battle.

ForceMajuere
Sep 21st 2007, 02:47 AM
In your Luke referance, Jesus is talking to Jews, the church does not appear until after the cross.

Huh?

What about the scripture,"All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Jesus is not singling out the Jews and Gentiles here; and if His words don't speak to the church, then who do they speak to?

Many generations of Christians have drawn strength from these words-from those hiding in the catacombs to those present day saints in China being tortured by the PSB-are you saying these words don't apply to them?

Sincerely,
FM

My heart's Desire
Sep 21st 2007, 02:59 AM
.One of my big problems with the pre rapture is that mankind could easily fall away from the Lord if post trib teachings wernt taught to everyone. When suffering comes will you fall away from the Lord or will you keep your faith.


Every one alive should be praying for the seal of God in the Forehead this is the only way you will be safe during the great tribulation. Not to many people have even herd about the Seal of God in the forehead. This is the Gift from God that Keeps you safe during his wrath on those mark with 666.


The followers of our Lord Jesus will receive the seal of God in the Forehead to protect them from Gods wrath the Seven plagues.

Even if there is no pre-trib rapture, Scripture tells me in Ephesians:1:13 that when I believed, I was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. I believe that would protect even as a seal on my forehead would. No one is able to snatch us out of Jesus' hand. I didn't save myself to begin with. Jesus keeps me safe.
If it were not for that, yes, I could see your point, IF I DEPENDED ON MYSELF.
But In Jesus my Saviour, I am already safe from His wrath.

DIZZY
Sep 21st 2007, 01:13 PM
Even if there is no pre-trib rapture, Scripture tells me in Ephesians:1:13 that when I believed, I was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. I believe that would protect even as a seal on my forehead would. No one is able to snatch us out of Jesus' hand. I didn't save myself to begin with. Jesus keeps me safe.
If it were not for that, yes, I could see your point, IF I DEPENDED ON MYSELF.
But In Jesus my Saviour, I am already safe from His wrath.

That was a very Good reply. Praise the Lord even if we did not believe in the pre-trib, post-trib, amill, etc we shall be safe in Him.:amen:

Dizzy:bible:

Lampstands1383
Sep 23rd 2007, 02:02 PM
Even if there is no pre-trib rapture, Scripture tells me in Ephesians:1:13 that when I believed, I was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. I believe that would protect even as a seal on my forehead would. No one is able to snatch us out of Jesus' hand. I didn't save myself to begin with. Jesus keeps me safe.
If it were not for that, yes, I could see your point, IF I DEPENDED ON MYSELF.
But In Jesus my Saviour, I am already safe from His wrath.

i agree all that matters is that you love Christ and you will be safe. It doesn't matter what view you have long as you follow Christ. its just if post tribe teachings weren't taught it would be very easy for some people to fall away from the Lord because they missed out on the rapture. people would be upset that they haven't been pre raptured and now they might fall away from the Lord. So it is very important the pre tribes learn the post tribe teachings. The rapture take place at the last trumpet if scripture was talking about a pre rapture they would have said Jesus returns on the first trumpet but it clearly says last. Some people who didn't get pre raptured are going to think there not worthy of God and might fall away and the truth is the Lord returns during the last trumpet. If post tribe teachings weren't around then alot of people would fall away from the Lord. The seal of God is a spiritual Gift God gives you the first seal out of seven. Light is God the light in ones forehead. So pray to the light in the forehead that your raptured inbody and pray for the Lord to return as fast as he can.

i was just wondering what do the pre rapture teachings say about the New earth or New heaven.???

post tirb view is that Jesus returns to this earth and Now our Lord rules this earth with his anointed. When Jesus returns the New earth and New heaven are established.

Now the pre rapture just acts like your caught up to meet the Lord while everyone on earth dies. it seems like the pre rapture teachings have the wicked ruling earth while the faithful are in heaven far away from earth. Help me out what are the pre rapture view on the New earth and New heaven???

if earth becomes heaven when Jesus returns then how can there be a pre rapture. when were caught up to meet the Lord our earth is now ruled by Jesus and now our Lord rules earth with his anointed.

The truth is when Jesus returns to our earth, Now earth becomes heaven or puts on the incorruptible.

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2007, 02:32 PM
Hi Lampstands :)
The truth is when Jesus returns to our earth, Now earth becomes heaven or puts on the incorruptible.Thoughtful post.

Well that is why it's called the kingdom "from heaven", not "to heaven" :)

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

1 Thess 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

2 Thess 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

:)

quiet dove
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:04 PM
Now the pre rapture just acts like your caught up to meet the Lord while everyone on earth dies. it seems like the pre rapture teachings have the wicked ruling earth while the faithful are in heaven far away from earth. Help me out what are the pre rapture view on the New earth and New heaven???

if earth becomes heaven when Jesus returns then how can there be a pre rapture. when were caught up to meet the Lord our earth is now ruled by Jesus and now our Lord rules earth with his anointed.

The truth is when Jesus returns to our earth, Now earth becomes heaven or puts on the incorruptible.

Pre trib does not teach that the Church is raptured and everyone else on earth dies. If everyone else just dies, how is it that the wicked could then rule the earth with every one dead?

Pre trib teaches the Church is raptured before the wrath of the Lamb falls on the earth. After the trib and Christ return, there is a thousand year reign of Christ where He rules the earth from Jerusalem. The Church, along with the martyred tribulation saints rule with Him, all of whom, both groups, have been resurrected incorruptible. Satan is prevented from hindering man kind during that thousand years but is loosed afterward and causes one final rebellion that is squashed by God. Then the New....and eternity....

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:09 PM
Pre trib does not teach that the Church is raptured and everyone else on earth dies. If everyone else just dies, how is it that the wicked could then rule the earth with every one dead?

Pre trib teaches the Church is raptured before the wrath of the Lamb falls on the earth. After the trib and Christ return, there is a thousand year reign of Christ where He rules the earth from Jerusalem. The Church, along with the martyred tribulation saints rule with Him, all of whom, both groups, have been resurrected incorruptible. Satan is prevented from hindering man kind during that thousand years but is loosed afterward and causes one final rebellion that is squashed by God. Then the New....and eternity....You forgot to mention that in this teaching of a millennial kingdom when Moses' law is again followed and everybody obeys it or else, that these are the ones who then rebel in the end and are destroyed. What, pray tell, is the purpose of THAT exercise???

quiet dove
Sep 23rd 2007, 06:04 PM
You forgot to mention that in this teaching of a millennial kingdom when Moses' law is again followed and everybody obeys it or else, that these are the ones who then rebel in the end and are destroyed. What, pray tell, is the purpose of THAT exercise???

Men are tested through out history, they are tested now, they will be tested during the trib, so I guess that is the purpose of that excercise. And it does not say that everyone obeys Moses law during the Millenial, it says they come to worship the King, or else. If scripture says that the Law of Moses will be followed "or eles" in the same way it was when first given, I dont know where that is, not saying isnt, just dont know where.

Zec 14:16 And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

My heart's Desire
Sep 24th 2007, 03:11 AM
You forgot to mention that in this teaching of a millennial kingdom when Moses' law is again followed and everybody obeys it or else, that these are the ones who then rebel in the end and are destroyed. What, pray tell, is the purpose of THAT exercise???
I'll be honest to say I'm not sure, but an explaination that I've heard, which in my mind is very plausable. It is that after 1000 years of living on earth under the rule of Jesus, without the interference from Satan, with peace and even all animals at peace with each other, the rebellion at the end will show that some will still rebel against Jesus. It will show that man will still not want to be under a rule of righteousness. They won't be able to blame it on Satan's influence, World conditions or anything else. It will once again show the total depravity of man and that God's judgements are just and fair.

My heart's Desire
Sep 24th 2007, 03:41 AM
i agree all that matters is that you love Christ and you will be safe. It doesn't matter what view you have long as you follow Christ. its just if post tribe teachings weren't taught it would be very easy for some people to fall away from the Lord because they missed out on the rapture. people would be upset that they haven't been pre raptured and now they might fall away from the Lord. So it is very important the pre tribes learn the post tribe teachings. The rapture take place at the last trumpet if scripture was talking about a pre rapture they would have said Jesus returns on the first trumpet but it clearly says last. Some people who didn't get pre raptured are going to think there not worthy of God and might fall away and the truth is the Lord returns during the last trumpet. If post tribe teachings weren't around then alot of people would fall away from the Lord. The seal of God is a spiritual Gift God gives you the first seal out of seven. Light is God the light in ones forehead. So pray to the light in the forehead that your raptured inbody and pray for the Lord to return as fast as he can.

i was just wondering what do the pre rapture teachings say about the New earth or New heaven.???

post tirb view is that Jesus returns to this earth and Now our Lord rules this earth with his anointed. When Jesus returns the New earth and New heaven are established.

Now the pre rapture just acts like your caught up to meet the Lord while everyone on earth dies. it seems like the pre rapture teachings have the wicked ruling earth while the faithful are in heaven far away from earth. Help me out what are the pre rapture view on the New earth and New heaven???

if earth becomes heaven when Jesus returns then how can there be a pre rapture. when were caught up to meet the Lord our earth is now ruled by Jesus and now our Lord rules earth with his anointed.

The truth is when Jesus returns to our earth, Now earth becomes heaven or puts on the incorruptible.

Well, I'll be honest with you. All of the timing of the rapture viewpoints seem to have some merit in them. In the end there will be only one way that will be correct, and as many have thought that it is not a "Salvation" issue. From what I've heard it must be close to it.
People talk about "falling away" or "losing faith" if the rapture doesn't occur as they believe. Some even that those who do (fall away, lose faith) will take the Mark of the Beast and we know what happens to those who do that! We talk about the dangers of not being prepared to go thru the tribulation and they might fall away(whatever that means to different people). There are those who are weak in faith (but it doesn't say that they don't have faith) and we are suppose to be gentle with them. (can't think of the verse at the moment). Pre-trib rapture is similiar to a Pre-Wrath one in that we believe the Church is not to suffer the wrath of God, which the trib will be the wrath of God on an unbelieving, Christ forsaking World.
Your post has too many different questions to it, but my question is this. Is it right to put fear in the heart of those who may be saved but weak in faith that they might end up as fallen away or even lost if they are not prepared for the horrors of the tribulation? Indeed, warn people we should yes, but the saved in Christ are safe, it is the lost we need to warn.
If these you are speaking of are going to think they are not worthy of God, they need to get that part down now because None of us are worthy. That's why Jesus died for us to begin with. I still respectfully listen to others viewpoints, as there would not be so many if the Bible was making it crystal clear what was correct or which way it was going to happen, but I'm still looking and waiting for that "blessed hope" that Jesus gave us when He bought His Church. The Church that He died for and purchased by His blood and death on a cruel cross.

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 05:01 PM
I'll be honest to say I'm not sure, but an explaination that I've heard, which in my mind is very plausable. It is that after 1000 years of living on earth under the rule of Jesus, without the interference from Satan, with peace and even all animals at peace with each other, the rebellion at the end will show that some will still rebel against Jesus. It will show that man will still not want to be under a rule of righteousness. They won't be able to blame it on Satan's influence, World conditions or anything else. It will once again show the total depravity of man and that God's judgements are just and fair.A couple of things to consider about this kingdom view:

1. A peace time between animals when the wolf lies down with the lamb - one of which will then be offered in sacrifice.

2. Satan will not be to blame and man will finally see his total depravity is what brings God's judgment - but it is Satan who leads this rebellion in the end by deceiving people who have been obedient all during this 1000 years.

3. Not mentioned but worth considering: Israel is the people who enter into this kingdom and bear children who rebel in the end and are destroyed - thus ALL Israel is not saved. This is the one that got me to reconsider the dispensational MK and finally drop it.

third hero
Sep 24th 2007, 05:21 PM
Your post has too many different questions to it, but my question is this. Is it right to put fear in the heart of those who may be saved but weak in faith that they might end up as fallen away or even lost if they are not prepared for the horrors of the tribulation?

IN truth, it is a good thing to cause people who are weak in the faith to be warned, and if that warning causes one to have fear, then it is not only the problem of the one who is in fear, but also the church which that person attends.

What I have learned over the years, and by means of reading the Bible, is that the believers are not islands. WE NEED EACH OTHER! The strong are to strengthen the weak, and that is the job of not only the pastors of the church, but everyone in it, especially the ones who are closest to that weaker person. It is our responsibility to recognize the one that is weak in the faith, and pray earnestly for him or her. To conceal a real threat, especially the magnitude that the Mark brings, is to not love that person at all. If I was in danger, and I was tender-hearted, I would rather have someone warn me, hurt my feelings and cause me to ponder the situation, than to let me be and be harmed. Indeed, it is our jobs to warn all believers of the Mark, because Jesus found it fit to give that expressed warning to John to give to the rest of us 2000 years ago.

Think of it like this. If it was not important, Jesus would not have revealed it to John. Since He did, it is our job to respect that, and tell others of this threat, especially as it appears to be more eminant now than ever before.


Indeed, warn people we should yes, but the saved in Christ are safe, it is the lost we need to warn.

The problem with this logic is this: Jesus gave that warning not to the lost, but to those who profess Him as Lord. Take a look at these verses.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six. -Rev 13:18


Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

What do these verses have in common?

1. Both are mentioned after some description of the Mark is presented.

2. Both address the saints.

Those who are lost have no understanding of scripture, and therefore they do not qualify as the recipients of these two verses. The ones with understanding are the Believers. Therefore, these are addressed to the believer, so that they do not fatally err.

Therefore, the Mark is a concern for all believers, because the lost will take the Mark, without much resistance. It is the believer, whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life, who must see to it that they make sure that they do not take it, and that they spread this message to all, so that others will not take it. (This is why when I am approached by agnostics and atheists, I tell them if they believe in nothing else, believe my words: DO NOT TAKE ANY COMPUTER CHIP IN THE RIGHT HAND OR FOREHEAD!)
*It's that important.

You see, if a believer takes the Mark, it is at that time that they forfeit their gift. It's THAT important. Revelation 14:9-11 does not differenciate. It says that every one who takes that mark are subject to the wrath of God. If that makkes one who is weak oin the faith fearful, than that is an indication that there is something in His heart that could cause him to take that mark, and that must be brought to light, and dealt with. It will spare a brother's life, and will strengthen that person's faith at the same time.

It is better to have a brother feel a little pressure now, and work out their salvation with fear and trembling, than to give a brother comfort now, and see him forfeit his gift that CHrist Died to give him.

My heart's Desire
Sep 24th 2007, 06:24 PM
IN truth, it is a good thing to cause people who are weak in the faith to be warned, and if that warning causes one to have fear, then it is not only the problem of the one who is in fear, but also the church which that person attends.

What I have learned over the years, and by means of reading the Bible, is that the believers are not islands. WE NEED EACH OTHER! The strong are to strengthen the weak, and that is the job of not only the pastors of the church, but everyone in it, especially the ones who are closest to that weaker person. It is our responsibility to recognize the one that is weak in the faith, and pray earnestly for him or her. To conceal a real threat, especially the magnitude that the Mark brings, is to not love that person at all. If I was in danger, and I was tender-hearted, I would rather have someone warn me, hurt my feelings and cause me to ponder the situation, than to let me be and be harmed. Indeed, it is our jobs to warn all believers of the Mark, because Jesus found it fit to give that expressed warning to John to give to the rest of us 2000 years ago.

Think of it like this. If it was not important, Jesus would not have revealed it to John. Since He did, it is our job to respect that, and tell others of this threat, especially as it appears to be more eminant now than ever before.



The problem with this logic is this: Jesus gave that warning not to the lost, but to those who profess Him as Lord. Take a look at these verses.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six. -Rev 13:18


Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

What do these verses have in common?

1. Both are mentioned after some description of the Mark is presented.

2. Both address the saints.

Those who are lost have no understanding of scripture, and therefore they do not qualify as the recipients of these two verses. The ones with understanding are the Believers. Therefore, these are addressed to the believer, so that they do not fatally err.

Therefore, the Mark is a concern for all believers, because the lost will take the Mark, without much resistance. It is the believer, whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life, who must see to it that they make sure that they do not take it, and that they spread this message to all, so that others will not take it. (This is why when I am approached by agnostics and atheists, I tell them if they believe in nothing else, believe my words: DO NOT TAKE ANY COMPUTER CHIP IN THE RIGHT HAND OR FOREHEAD!)
*It's that important.

You see, if a believer takes the Mark, it is at that time that they forfeit their gift. It's THAT important. Revelation 14:9-11 does not differenciate. It says that every one who takes that mark are subject to the wrath of God. If that makkes one who is weak oin the faith fearful, than that is an indication that there is something in His heart that could cause him to take that mark, and that must be brought to light, and dealt with. It will spare a brother's life, and will strengthen that person's faith at the same time.

It is better to have a brother feel a little pressure now, and work out their salvation with fear and trembling, than to give a brother comfort now, and see him forfeit his gift that CHrist Died to give him.

With all due respect, the verses you use are in Revelation which more than likely mostly will benefit those who are going through the trib, and I believe the church will not be here for the tribulation.
I find it hard to see a true believer who is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God for Salvation (delievance) and everything else that salvation means, to be able to take the Mark. Those who take the Mark just make a change of ownership from belonging to Christ and then belonging to the antichrist?
This I suppose is my point. Who are we trusting for our salvation, ourselves or Jesus who died for Us? If we are trusting Jesus, then He is our delieverance and salvation. He did it all. If we are trusting in ourselves then yes, I suppose it would be possible to take the Mark.

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 06:32 PM
ThirdHero, #191 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1391538&postcount=191)
Did you ever read Deut 6:8 where Moses said to bind the word upon their hands and foreheads? The preceding verses actually define how this is to be done; but the Pharisees in their zeal to keep the word literally, made little phylacteries and put scriptures in the boxes and tied those on themselves.

Now if you are able to see that there was a spiritual teaching at work and not one of a "literal" nature whereby God meant little boxes, then why can you not see this in the MOTB? If this "literal" mark is so sinister FOR CHRISTIANS, why is it not described for us in those terms that we might know what it is when we "see" it? Why would the speculation of computer chips and such be what the Lord is intending to tell us?

Especially, since what this mark is, is a sign that one is an idolator and a worshipper of Satan. This hardly seems to be a warning to Christians who are abiding in Christ by faith in truth and love. Whatever is put upon one's flesh is not what causes this sort of spiritual deception that leads one astray to idolatry.

You are still thinking in terms of boxes here.

Kathe
Sep 24th 2007, 10:46 PM
Even if there is no pre-trib rapture, Scripture tells me in Ephesians:1:13 that when I believed, I was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. I believe that would protect even as a seal on my forehead would. No one is able to snatch us out of Jesus' hand. I didn't save myself to begin with. Jesus keeps me safe.
If it were not for that, yes, I could see your point, IF I DEPENDED ON MYSELF.
But In Jesus my Saviour, I am already safe from His wrath.

Then how do you explain the parable of the ten virgins. Christ was talking about the church. They all had lamps, they all fell asleep and their lamps went out waiting for Christ. Unbelievers are not going to be waiting for Christ. When the bridegroom was announced they looked to their vessels for extra oil to relight light lamps and only 5 had extra. Those went in with Christ, the rest were denied.

Kathe

Kathe
Sep 24th 2007, 10:59 PM
With all due respect, the verses you use are in Revelation which more than likely mostly will benefit those who are going through the trib, and I believe the church will not be here for the tribulation.
I find it hard to see a true believer who is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God for Salvation (delievance) and everything else that salvation means, to be able to take the Mark. Those who take the Mark just make a change of ownership from belonging to Christ and then belonging to the antichrist?
This I suppose is my point. Who are we trusting for our salvation, ourselves or Jesus who died for Us? If we are trusting Jesus, then He is our delieverance and salvation. He did it all. If we are trusting in ourselves then yes, I suppose it would be possible to take the Mark.

With due respect then if Revelation is supposed to be for the "trib saints" then why does chapter 1:3 tell us Re:1:3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Wouldn't this verse be completely redundant for those raptured prior to the tribulation? This book was written for the whole church. It does not tell us "don't bother reading this unless you are one of the unfortunate ones who didn't come to Christ before I rapture them". It is meant for us all. And why will we be blessed? Because we will be prepared spiritually to go through it.

Kathe

Mograce2U
Sep 25th 2007, 12:22 AM
Then how do you explain the parable of the ten virgins. Christ was talking about the church. They all had lamps, they all fell asleep and their lamps went out waiting for Christ. Unbelievers are not going to be waiting for Christ. When the bridegroom was announced they looked to their vessels for extra oil to relight light lamps and only 5 had extra. Those went in with Christ, the rest were denied.

Hi Kathe,
I think the proper context for the 10 virgins is Israel - who was waiting for the promise of regeneration in the new covenant. Without the oil of the Holy Spirit, they will not make it into the kingdom. While the remnant who did receive the promise will.

Naphal
Sep 25th 2007, 02:13 AM
Hi Kathe,
I think the proper context for the 10 virgins is Israel - who was waiting for the promise of regeneration in the new covenant. Without the oil of the Holy Spirit, they will not make it into the kingdom. While the remnant who did receive the promise will.

They all had the oil, just some did not have enough. Whatever the oil represents, all of the virgins are Christians waiting on the return of the lord. Some fail and this is what Paul said concerning the Apostasy.

My heart's Desire
Sep 25th 2007, 05:00 AM
With due respect then if Revelation is supposed to be for the "trib saints" then why does chapter 1:3 tell us Re:1:3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Wouldn't this verse be completely redundant for those raptured prior to the tribulation? This book was written for the whole church. It does not tell us "don't bother reading this unless you are one of the unfortunate ones who didn't come to Christ before I rapture them". It is meant for us all. And why will we be blessed? Because we will be prepared spiritually to go through it.

Kathe

I didn't say that the Book of Revelation is for the "trib saints". I said it would
more than likely mostly benefit those who are going through the trib. The few first chapters were written to the churches and the end describes the New Heaven and New Earth, so it would be foolish for me to say it was ONLY for those who are in the Tribulation period.

My heart's Desire
Sep 25th 2007, 05:05 AM
Then how do you explain the parable of the ten virgins. Christ was talking about the church. They all had lamps, they all fell asleep and their lamps went out waiting for Christ. Unbelievers are not going to be waiting for Christ. When the bridegroom was announced they looked to their vessels for extra oil to relight light lamps and only 5 had extra. Those went in with Christ, the rest were denied.

Kathe

Once again, here I will be humble and honest enough to say that I'm not sure what the parable of the 10 virgins is about exactly. What does oil and extra oil have to do with the church? Oil is said to symbolize the Holy Spirit, right?

Naphal
Sep 25th 2007, 05:25 AM
Oil is said to symbolize the Holy Spirit, right?

I'd like to see where that is written.

My heart's Desire
Sep 25th 2007, 05:34 AM
I'd like to see where that is written.

That's why I asked. Do people think its the church b/c of the oil or because they are virgins?

Naphal
Sep 25th 2007, 05:37 AM
That's why I asked. Do people think its the church b/c of the oil or because they are virgins?

It's because they are waiting for the Lord and they are virgins. Also, Christ is listing some 8-9 examples of what things are like when he will return so this is but one of many concerning the second coming.

Mograce2U
Sep 25th 2007, 04:14 PM
The 3 parables about the kingdom of heaven and the coming of the Lord in glory in Mat 25 show us 3 things that will happen:

1. Resurrection of saints of which only those who had oil in their lamps
enter into the marriage supper and on the others the door was shut.
The ones who do not make it were never known by Christ - the ones
in whom the lamps had gone out. Notice that all were sleeping when
the call was heard.

2. Rewards to the faithful servants to rule and reign with Christ while the
unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

3. Judgment of sheep and goats in which the sheep enter into the
kingdom and the goats are sentenced to everlasting punishment.
The basis for this judgment is their service to the brethren of the Lord
- which neither group was aware of having done or not.

I suspect that this is not the final return of the Lord at the end of the world but the commencement of the 1,000 yr spiritual kingdom we are now in as it concerns the remnant of Israel in the 1st century and the OT saints. It is the group in #3 which did not know they had been serving the Lord that seems to be the key. OT Israel before the 1st Advent was looking forward to Messiah's arrival and these served Christ without yet knowing Him.

The results for the 3 groups which are rejected are also different:
Barred from the marriage supper; cast into outer darkness; facing everlasting punishment. Outer darkness would seem to be that place which is outside of the kingdom. I do not see any of them going to the 2nd death however. The goats "shall" go away to everlasting punishment but it would seem "not yet".

The servants who had been given talents is very much like those in Ch 24 who are admonished to keep faithful until this day of the Lord arrives. These are not men resurrected from the dead but living saints looking for the Lord coming in power. A day which also is only known by the Lord - and is supported in Zech 14:6-7.

Zech 8 - 14 if read carefully will show us the restoration of Israel after the Babylon captivity, the wars with the Greeks in the inter-testament period, the 1st Advent of the Lord, His death and resurrection, the arrival of the promise at Pentecost, and the coming of this kingdom when Jerusalem is safely inhabited above, before earthly Jerusalem below is judged.

"Holiness unto the Lord" is the banner that the priests wear on their mitres - which all the saints who are ruling and reigning with Christ in the kingdom now have. There is now no more Canaanite in the house of the Lord - whose temple we are.

Folks, we are looking at the final judgment that came upon Israel and the redemption of the saints in the first century.

My heart's Desire
Sep 25th 2007, 04:55 PM
I wonder if we have a discussion here somewhere about the parable of the 10 virgins. If so, I think I'd like to read it. :)

itsokimadocter
Sep 25th 2007, 05:11 PM
I wonder if we have a discussion here somewhere about the parable of the 10 virgins. If so, I think I'd like to read it. :)

here is one i started a while ago...

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59807&highlight=parable+virgins

Kathe
Sep 25th 2007, 06:18 PM
The point of the parable of the virgins is NOT the oil, it's that ALL of the virgins were waiting for Christ. ALL of the virgins thought they were saved. The world is NOT waiting for Christ. Only the church is. Soo....there are people who think they are saved, who are waiting for Christ, who will not make it into eternity. It has really nothing to do with the oil except they didn't bring enough.

Kathe

Ezekiel_37
Oct 9th 2007, 03:29 AM
I am not a pre-tribber but your post seems way out of line to me.

lol.....oooops my apologies....I meant Ez13.....hope that clears it up for you....sorry...

skc53
Oct 9th 2007, 09:23 AM
Actually, the pre tribber doesnt have to wait to take a beating from the world, it gets pretty rough in here, out of love of course. But somehow some of us manage to hang on and not be shaken. Hmm, ............that must be faith.:eek: You have got that right quiet dove. Amen!

Just for the record, I have been accused of:
--not understanding the Gospel to start with
--not believeing Christ was victorious on the cross
--blasphemy
--believing doctrines of devils
--believing a doctrine that was started by the vision of a "post trib" teenager, (something I have refuted over and over and have been ignored)
--believing there are two gospels and me not understanding either one of them
--not being capable of reading the Bible for myself
--denying the truth in the Bible and denying tha the Bible is infallible
--not to mention being weak in faith and easily fooled by false prophets
And all that from fellow brothers and sisters! Sad indeed!
I think my faith along with most other pre tribbers is pretty strong, a lot stronger then we get credit for. Amen to that quiet dove. I'm also a pre-tribber, because my Lord doesn't want us to go through the wrath to come which is the tribulation. Praise God, thank you Jesus.


No, my joy remains steadfast in the character, integrity, promises that are sustained by who and what my Savior is. My joy in knowing that at any moment, one way or another, I could see my Savior. I dont know why those anticipating enduring the tribulation are waiting, get on a plane, fly to China or the Middle East and jump on in to the persecution that you are so prepared to endure. Why wait, is it only the tribulation saints that are worthy of your sacrifice? Load up a bunch of food and get on a plane!! Apparently no post tribbers are any more in a hurry to suffer persecution that any pre tribber. The ones already in mission fields across the earth risking their lives are the heros, none of us are. Al those already risking their lives, I wonder which they would choose, all the rest of the believers joining them or being rapture and taken, in the twinkling of an eye. I know which I would want if I were sitting in prison right now for my faith!

I am still curoius and my question remains unanswered Naphal, how is you so easily believe Satan can resurrect the dead saints, call living saints to the air, give them incoruptible bodies? yet you give him no credit for being able to create false signs and wonders that imitate the Second Coming? Surely if he can do the former he is capable of the latter.

By the way quiet dove, I support you on this. I'm looking forward to the day when we hear the trumpet and hear God's shout and we rise up and meet our Lord in the air!:pp

DIZZY
Oct 9th 2007, 10:14 AM
You forgot to mention that in this teaching of a millennial kingdom when Moses' law is again followed and everybody obeys it or else, that these are the ones who then rebel in the end and are destroyed. What, pray tell, is the purpose of THAT exercise???

Hi Mograce,

Why would we follow Moses law? Wasn't all law given by God? Isn't it Christ Himself reigning in the Millennial period? So why do we need the law that Moses gave to the people? When Christ is reigning there anyway.

Well not all rebel in the Millennial reign, even if 20 or 10 no Lord maybe 5 are righteous and are saved I believe to the Lord their souls are worth it.

Dizzy:bible:

Firstfruits
Oct 9th 2007, 02:34 PM
Would like to open up a friendly, non-judgemental discussion. This isn't about who is a better Christian but strictly concerning any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine. This essentially is the belief that Jesus will return and rapture away the faithful before the tribulation begins.

Dangers involving mid or post trib are not being sought in this thread, thank you.

There is a danger of the second death at the last day.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him at the last day. John 12:48.

Jesus said that both they that have done good and they that have done evil shall be resurrected at the last day. John 6:39,40. John 12:48.

Allegra
Oct 9th 2007, 03:37 PM
I don't believe a pre-trib rapture anymore bc I don't believe in any Great tribulation. I think what we are seeing in Revelation is the results of the souls of the faithful in a certain time period in history which in John's visions comforts all-time Christians of their destiny.
Now, since Christ must reign until he destroys ALL his enemies- proof that the 7th trumpet has already been sounded in heaven- at His ascension & claiming the kingdom earth. Since then, for centuries, God has been rewarding his servants with spiritual blessings & has in part put judgments or consequences aimed directly at evil men. This is the physical realm on earth. Going on since the mystery of the resurrection of Christ was revealed at the 7th trumpet in 33 AD (some say 32 AD) or the 1st Easter Sunday.
Any Apostasy for the future is part of the religious & political climate of our times & further, that at sometime it will be realized that the Heathen(like China) and Anti-christian nations (you name them) will be the majority- but Christians will keep the faith. Christians won't have any part of those religions.(they won't take the mark, so to speak, & be a part of that kind of religion)
Finally, when the power of the holy people is broken- or when the oppression is enough, I trust that that is when God will step in & cause a final war between good & evil.
http://www.heart-talks.com/truth08.html
The only thing I disagree on in this article is the line where he says the Jews will NEVER gather again. I don't think never, bc it's always possible for any individual (or nation) to come to Christ before He returns.

DIZZY
Oct 9th 2007, 11:47 PM
If you can answer me this question then I will agree with your 'church spirited away during the time of testing' presupposition.

Luke 21:16-19 says,"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake. But there shall not one hair on your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

Excuse me, if I am put to death, all my hairs shall perish!

What could Jesus have meant by that statement?

Sincerely,
FM

Hi ForceMajuere,

You don't have to worry your preety little head about being put to death, we won't be here.
1 Cor. 15:51;
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1Thess 5:9
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
1Thess:1:10
10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Revelation3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (testing), which shall come upon all the world (the wicked), to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So from these verses we can see we will not be here but on the other side of this coin are the verses you have quoted above. They are actually talking about before we are taken.

Now lets luke at The book of Lukefrom verse 5 onwards. Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple.

v7 The disciples ask when will these things happen and what are the signs that they are about to take place.

v8 Jesus tells them false prophets come in His name claiming to be Him, there will be wars and revolutions, these things have to happen before the end times comes.

v9 Then He says nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, there will be eaurthquakes you know the rest and great signs from heaven.

These few verses are talking about what happens before Christ returns, which will be after the Great tribulation.

Now lets look at the next thing Jesus says.

v10 But before all this.
So here Jesus is saying before the Tribulation happens, before that 7 years of tribulation you will be persecuted, you will be dilivered up and be put in prisons, you will be brought before the government and so forth. Not to worry for He will give us words on how to speak and they will not be able to deny the truth. Family and friends will betray you and some of you will be put to death not all.

This is talking about right from the time Christ dies on the cross right up until now the present time. We look at the world now and certain religions if you become a Born Again Christian you are put to death by your own families, betrayed by the ones you love family and friends. In other counties there are people dilivered up to their governments for preaching the word of God and they are thown in prison. But all of this is a great witness to God for these people don't deny their faith and are willing to die for what they believe.

v20 Jesus turns their focus back to Jerusalem and says when you see the things in verses 5 and 10 happening you will now that its desolation is near. You will know that the one who has come to destroy you is near (Satan) is the abomination of desolation he is the one that makes Jerusalem desolate.

v22 Jesus tells His disciples what the times are and this will happen until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, until the end of the Great Tribulation.

v 25 Then He says once all that has happened there will be signs and terrors coming on the world for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power an great glory. Jesus comes to take back what He once owned, He restores everything to its former glory. Lift your heads up your redeption is near.


So what I am saying here we are in the times you have quoted and these things are already happening in the world today. But don't worry your pretty little head, but then again if you are in a country where you can not speak the truth and profess you are a Born Again Christian, then you might have to worry. But to me if the Lord calls me to die for Him I would be willing to lay down my life.
Let us serve Him always no matter what happens to our mortal bodies for the can not touch our soul.:amen:

Acts 5:41

41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

Dizzy:bible:

Naphal
Oct 10th 2007, 12:58 AM
There is a danger of the second death at the last day.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him at the last day. John 12:48.

Jesus said that both they that have done good and they that have done evil shall be resurrected at the last day. John 6:39,40. John 12:48.



Can you answer this, are there "any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine?"

Naphal
Oct 10th 2007, 01:00 AM
You don't have to worry your preety little head about being put to death, we won't be here.

You'll be here if the tribulation occurs in your lifetime. There is no getting away from it. God won't take anyone out of here until after it is over because that is the only time he separates the faithful from the wicked.

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2007, 03:19 AM
You'll be here if the tribulation occurs in your lifetime. There is no getting away from it. God won't take anyone out of here until after it is over because that is the only time he separates the faithful from the wicked.

Hi Naphal,

There is already Tribulation in this world because the deciever is here already. But I will not be around when he is revealed, the Lord has promised me this so I am not worried about one hair on my head.

1Thess 5:9
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation
through our Lord Jesus Christ1Thess:1:10
10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead
Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

He will save us before the testing that comes upon the world.

Revelation3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from
the hour of temptation (testing), which shall come upon all the world ( the
wicked), to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Through Jesus Christ's death we have been saved from wrath. Otherwise
Christ's death on the cross was pointless.

Matthew 25:32-34,40
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jesus seperates what is left of the people after the Millennial reign, after Satan has been defeated the just from the unjust. The just inherit the kingdom the wicked inherit eternal damnation in the lake of fire were He has cast the devil and his angels.
Dizzy:bible:

Naphal
Oct 10th 2007, 03:23 AM
Hi Naphal,

There is already Tribulation in this world because the deciever is here already. But I will not be around when he is revealed, the Lord has promised me this so I am not worried about one hair on my head.

Of course that's what I was talking about. The time when the deceiver is revealed. You will be here :) Are you ready to face him and his temptations?





Through Jesus Christ's death we have been saved from wrath. Otherwise
Christ's death on the cross was pointless.


His death was to save us from God's righteous wrath upon the wicked and sinners. However, we are not saved from Satan's wrath and temptations. We have our own cross to bear and during that time period it will be facing the deceiver.

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2007, 05:06 AM
Of course that's what I was talking about. The time when the deceiver is revealed. You will be here :) Are you ready to face him and his temptations?



[QUOTE]
His death was to save us from God's righteous wrath upon the wicked and sinners. However, we are not saved from Satan's wrath and temptations. We have our own cross to bear and during that time period it will be facing the deceiver.



Hi Naphal,

I am quite sure God will save me from the Great Tribulation, but if He doesn't, yes I am ready to go through it for I am a child of God and nothing man can do to me will hurt me. Either way I am with my Lord just as I am with Him now. The father in Him and He in me and we are together always.

Matthew 10:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So I have no fear at all how about you? Are you ready?

Dizzy

Naphal
Oct 10th 2007, 05:57 AM
[quote=Naphal;1406173]I am quite sure God will save me from the Great Tribulation, but if He doesn't, yes I am ready to go through it for I am a child of God and nothing man can do to me will hurt me.

Good to hear that.




Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So I have no fear at all how about you?



Well since the verse you quoted says to fear God because he is the only one to destroy both soul and body in hell, then yes I fear God as per the recommendation of the verse :)

I also fear for those that might believe in doctrines that could cause them dangerous issues within the tribulation period...



Are you ready?

Yes, ready now, and getting more ready the longer the wait :)

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2007, 06:22 AM
[quote=DIZZY;1406217]

Good to hear that.





Well since the verse you quoted says to fear God because he is the only one to destroy both soul and body in hell, then yes I fear God as per the recommendation of the verse :)

I also fear for those that might believe in doctrines that could cause them dangerous issues within the tribulation period...




Yes, ready now, and getting more ready the longer the wait :)

Hi Naphal,

I have never heard our church preach on a rapture. Since studing the word of God, I believe God himself has shown me this or should I say the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me and as I look into it more and more I can see that it is true. If at all I thought this was a false teaching of man I would check it out to confirm that belief but since I know it is not from man then I will believe. I don't read any other books other than my bible because I am a person who hates reading. I could pick a book up and a day later I get sick of reading it so I put it down never to read again.

Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The prophecy of Revelation just doesn't start in Revelation it has been prophesied throughout the whole Bible.

I find since I have come to this Forum I have grown so much spiritually and I would like to thank all you guys and girls for that. If I didn't have to dive into the word of God to defend my beliefs then I would just follow the crowd. Not a good thing to do.

Once again thanks.

Dizzy:bible:

Naphal
Oct 10th 2007, 06:26 AM
Hi Naphal,

I have never heard our church preach on a rapture. Since studing the word of God, I believe God himself has shown me this or should I say the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me and as I look into it more and more I can see that it is true. If at all I thought this was a false teaching of man I would check it out to confirm that belief but since I know it is not from man then I will believe.

Please don't stop studying the topic and searching for truth. I pray that God will reveal more to you on this topic.



I don't read any other books other than my bible because I am a person who hates reading. I could pick a book up and a day later I get sick of reading it so I put it down never to read again.

Ok.



[QUOTE]
Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The prophecy of Revelation just doesn't start in Revelation it has been prophesied throughout the whole Bible.



That's true.




I find since I have come to this Forum I have grown so much spiritually and I would like to thank all you guys and girls for that. If I didn't have to dive into the word of God to defend my beliefs then I would just follow the crowd. Not a good thing to do.

Once again thanks.


:)

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2007, 07:51 AM
Can you answer this, are there "any possible dangers of believing in the pre-trib doctrine?"

Sorry, that should have been a "yes", plus what is written.

Naphal
Oct 10th 2007, 07:55 AM
Sorry, that should have been a "yes", plus what is written.

Thanks, I wasn't clear :)

DIZZY
Oct 10th 2007, 11:31 AM
Hi guys,
Just a reply to Jeffweeder and Steven3.

John 17:15
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

As I said before I don't believe this has anything to do with the rapture.

I believe Jesus is asking God to keep them in the world even though they are not apart of the world (they belong to the heavenly realm) and Keep them in the truth of His word. Help them to stay strong in their faith as God had helped Jesus to stay strong while He was still in the world. He is praying for strength so that they could fulfill the commisson that Christ was to give them just as Christ had fulfilled the purpose of His coming here. Who is the evil one? Satan and he would love to decieve and turn Christ's disciples away from Him, but Christ asked God to keep them strong while they are in the world.

Satan is always trying to turn the saints away from the truth, with some he succeeds and with others he doesn't. Why does he succeed with some? Because they only believe they don't have the relationship with Christ aswell.

Luke 8:4-6

4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

What seed aught we to be, I feel we need to be the good seed so lets not allow Satan to decieve us and lead us astray. And this is why Christ prayed to God for His disciples to keep them in the world but not apart of it and to protect them from Satan's evil traps.



Dizzy:bible:

third hero
Oct 10th 2007, 05:49 PM
I don't believe a pre-trib rapture anymore bc I don't believe in any Great tribulation. I think what we are seeing in Revelation is the results of the souls of the faithful in a certain time period in history which in John's visions comforts all-time Christians of their destiny.
Now, since Christ must reign until he destroys ALL his enemies- proof that the 7th trumpet has already been sounded in heaven- at His ascension & claiming the kingdom earth. Since then, for centuries, God has been rewarding his servants with spiritual blessings & has in part put judgments or consequences aimed directly at evil men. This is the physical realm on earth. Going on since the mystery of the resurrection of Christ was revealed at the 7th trumpet in 33 AD (some say 32 AD) or the 1st Easter Sunday.
Any Apostasy for the future is part of the religious & political climate of our times & further, that at sometime it will be realized that the Heathen(like China) and Anti-christian nations (you name them) will be the majority- but Christians will keep the faith. Christians won't have any part of those religions.(they won't take the mark, so to speak, & be a part of that kind of religion)
Finally, when the power of the holy people is broken- or when the oppression is enough, I trust that that is when God will step in & cause a final war between good & evil.
http://www.heart-talks.com/truth08.html
The only thing I disagree on in this article is the line where he says the Jews will NEVER gather again. I don't think never, bc it's always possible for any individual (or nation) to come to Christ before He returns.

So, when you see timetables like the beast ruling and waging war with the saints for 42 months, the 42 month's part is no longer defined, but rather an indefinite period of time, like the 1000 years in chapter 20.

Well, I guess that you are right then, if we were able to change terminology into whatever we want it to be.

The fact of the matter is that the things that are set in Revelation are too specific to ignore and spiritualize away. Things like locusts stinging men for 5 months, and these men can not die, although they seek it, two prophets prophesying in Jerusalem and inflicting the world as many plagues as they want, and shut up the sky for 3.5 years, the beast waging war against the believers for 42 months are all too specific and too defined to spiritualize or fugurate. To ignore this is to basically set oneself up to be deceived by whatever wind that blows. And yes, quite a lot of it is blowing in church circles today, so much that many are having a hard time figuring out what is the God-given truth, and what is false.

Mograce2U
Oct 11th 2007, 02:16 AM
So, when you see timetables like the beast ruling and waging war with the saints for 42 months, the 42 month's part is no longer defined, but rather an indefinite period of time, like the 1000 years in chapter 20.

Well, I guess that you are right then, if we were able to change terminology into whatever we want it to be.

The fact of the matter is that the things that are set in Revelation are too specific to ignore and spiritualize away. Things like locusts stinging men for 5 months, and these men can not die, although they seek it, two prophets prophesying in Jerusalem and inflicting the world as many plagues as they want, and shut up the sky for 3.5 years, the beast waging war against the believers for 42 months are all too specific and too defined to spiritualize or fugurate. To ignore this is to basically set oneself up to be deceived by whatever wind that blows. And yes, quite a lot of it is blowing in church circles today, so much that many are having a hard time figuring out what is the God-given truth, and what is false.These things do seem pretty specific - for 70 AD. In fact the cities in Israel were trampled by the Romans for 42 months. And those locusts sure sound demonic don't they? The people in the city certainly evidenced Satanic influence during the 5 months that Jerusalem was underseige. The persecution of the saints also fits that period. Why can't you see that?

Naphal
Oct 11th 2007, 02:28 AM
These things do seem pretty specific - for 70 AD. In fact the cities in Israel were trampled by the Romans for 42 months. And those locusts sure sound demonic don't they? The people in the city certainly evidenced Satanic influence during the 5 months that Jerusalem was underseige. The persecution of the saints also fits that period. Why can't you see that?

I'm sure he can see why you believe in that but I also think he sees something more than that as I do. Shadows of things sure look like fulfillments. They are supposed to look and match closely but differ just enough for us to identify them as such.

Mograce2U
Oct 11th 2007, 01:31 PM
I'm sure he can see why you believe in that but I also think he sees something more than that as I do. Shadows of things sure look like fulfillments. They are supposed to look and match closely but differ just enough for us to identify them as such.Shadows? What fulfills prophecy is no longer a shadow but establishes a type for us. That type really did happen already and can now teach us. Thereore, if there is an anti-type which it figures, that anti-type is a spiritual reality.

Pretty much like the suffering of Christ was predicted and He did literally die on a cross. What His death accomplished is fulfilled spiritually. The spiritual reality is what we need to grasp by the type given to us.

This is where you guys are going off course in looking at the physical realm to fight your spiritual battle. And by looking to some future event for which you are trying to prepare, is not preparing you at all for what is happening already.

Israel in the 1st century failed to recognize the signs that Messiah was here which caused them to reject Jesus and the kingdom He brought them. Now in these last days, men have again turned to their misunderstanding and pretty much for the same reason - having no light concerning spiritual realities which prophecy would have given them, and so their focus was political.

If you can see that Revelation is about the judgment that came upon those who rejected Jesus in His 1st coming, you will be in a better position to grasp the trial we are in. A trial about discerning spiritual truth from the spiritual error which deceives us. That beast fills the world with his lies and false hope. We ought not to be deceived by the things he can do in the world who knows not God. We who have the promise, hope in an eternal kingdom which will arrive at His return. That is the kingdom we need to be prepared to receive.

Here is the instruction given to us for that kingdom:

(Eph 4:11-16 KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; {12} For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: {13} Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: {14} That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; {15} But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: {16} From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Naphal
Oct 11th 2007, 09:49 PM
Shadows?

Yes. What occurred in Ad 70 was not prophesied and did not fulfill the prophesies. They were only similar things that helps us to recognize when the true fulfillments occur.





If you can see that Revelation is about the judgment that came upon those who rejected Jesus in His 1st coming, you will be in a better position to grasp the trial we are in.

And if "you can see that Revelation is" not "about the judgment that came upon those who rejected Jesus in His 1st coming" but about those in the yet future then "you will be in a better position to grasp the trial" which is yet to come.

Mograce2U
Oct 12th 2007, 02:00 AM
Yes. What occurred in Ad 70 was not prophesied and did not fulfill the prophesies. They were only similar things that helps us to recognize when the true fulfillments occur.
...
And if "you can see that Revelation is" not "about the judgment that came upon those who rejected Jesus in His 1st coming" but about those in the yet future then "you will be in a better position to grasp the trial" which is yet to come.
Hah! Spoken like a true futurist! I can see you do not understand me, though I have tried to be clear.

How can you say that 70 AD was not prophesied nor fulfilled the prophetic words of Jesus concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

I am aghast that you would say this.

Naphal
Oct 12th 2007, 04:31 AM
Hah! Spoken like a true futurist! I can see you do not understand me, though I have tried to be clear.

I understand you perfectly actually.




How can you say that 70 AD was not prophesied nor fulfilled the prophetic words of Jesus concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

Because that was not what he was talking about. Some destruction happened but some did not and then there is the rest that he said would happen that did not happen. So, all in all Ad 70 was a small glimpse of what is actually still to come.