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tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 03:44 PM
WAS JOB SAVED? DID HE HAVE SALVATION, BEGINNING AT JOB 1:1.

I am interested in knowing what you believe, and why you believe it.

That we may share and grow together. Any help or comments will be greatly appreciated.

I did not make this clear enough. I am asking, when did Job get saved? From the beginning Job 1:1, or the end of the
Book?

Love in Christ

matthew94
Sep 11th 2007, 04:27 PM
I believe Job was saved by grace through faith

He knew his need (Job 9:32-35)


"He (God) is not a man like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,
someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.And he had faith that God would provide his need (Job 19:25-27)


I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

He was eagerly looking forward to the work of a redeemer that could mediate b/w him and his God. We passionately look back to that same redeemer.

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 05:31 PM
I believe Job was saved by grace through faith

He knew his need (Job 9:32-35)

And he had faith that God would provide his need (Job 19:25-27)



He was eagerly looking forward to the work of a redeemer that could mediate b/w him and his God. We passionately look back to that same redeemer.

Matthew94 it appears that I didn't state my question clear enough. I was asking when did he get saved, beginning or end?

If you could reply to this I would appreciate it.

mikebr
Sep 11th 2007, 06:05 PM
Was Job a Jew? I don't think there is any proof that he was.

Sold Out
Sep 11th 2007, 06:11 PM
THE CHARACTER OF JOB


Job was considered by God to be the finest Christian on the face of the earth during his day. Listed below are many fine characteristics of Job. Job was considered to be:
* Perfect (Job 1:1,8 & 2:3) - Job was mature in his obedience
* Upright(Job 1:1,8 & 2:3) - Job did right in public because he was right in private
* One who feared God (Job 1:1,8 & 2:3 & 31:23) - Job obeyed God's Word
* One who eschewed evil (Job 1:1,8 & 2:3) - Job avoided evil (I Thess 5:22)
* One who sanctified his children (Job 1:5) - Job set his children apart for God
* One who offered sacrifices continually (Job 1:5) - Job showed others around him who the SAVIOR was
* One who worshipped (Job 1:20) - Job gave God the glory despite his circumstances
* Humble (Job 1:21 & 13:26 & 31:33) - Job realized his human fraility
* Wise (Job 1:22) - Job did not charge God foolishly despite his circumstances
* A man of integrity (Job 2:3,9-10 & 31:6-8) - Job was always conscious of doing what was right
* A teacher (Job 4:3) - Job took time to teach others
* Strong (Job 4:3) - Job was strong enough to strengthen others
* Encouraging (Job 4:4) - Job encouraged himself so he could encourage others (Josh 1:6)
* A lover of God's Word (Job 23:11-12 & 31:24-28) - Job loved the Word of God more than money or food
* A man of respect (Job 29:7-11,21-25) - Job was looked up to
* A lover of the unlovely (Job 29:12-16 & 31:16-22,32) - Job cared for those for whom no one cared
* One who stood for right (Job 29:17) - Job took an open stand against wrong
* Spiritual (Job 30:25 & 42:7-10) - Job was willing to restore those who had fallen (Gal 6:1)
* A man of character (Job 31:1,9-12) - Job was morally pure
* Honest (Job 31:5,39) - Job took advantage of no one
* One who was not a respector of persons (Job 31:13-23) - Job treated his everyone fairly
* One who was not Worldly (Job 31:24-25) - Job rejected materialism
* One who was true to God (Job 31:26-28) - Job rejected idolatry
* One who was not vengeful (Job 31:29-30) - Job dealt kindly with his enemies)
* Meek (Job 31:29-30) - Job did not take revenge on his enemies (Num 12:1-3)
* A man who stayed right with God (Job 31:33 & 42:1-6) - Job confessed his sins immediately (I Jn 1:9)
* Independent of men (Job 31:34) - Job did not follow the crowd (Exo 23:2)

Frances
Sep 11th 2007, 06:22 PM
Job was considered by God to be the finest Christian on the face of the earth during his day.

On what evidence?

John the Baptist was not considered by Jesus Christ to be a 'Christian' as He said (Matt.11:11) "there has not risen one greater than John the Bapist; but he who is least in the Kindom of Heaven is greater than he."

matthew94
Sep 11th 2007, 06:41 PM
Matthew94 it appears that I didn't state my question clear enough. I was asking when did he get saved, beginning or end?

If you could reply to this I would appreciate it.

Oh, you're correct, I didn't understand the nature of your question :)

I don't know that we can pin-point the 'when' of Job's salvation. We like to make salvation a 'point' on a chronological map, but I don't really think of salvation that way. I think God's grace reaches out to people who are pursuing God. He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. I think Job was seeking God throughout his life, so in my opinion he was saved in Job 1:1. But he came to better understand the nature of his salvation through his trials.

What do you think?

kejonn
Sep 11th 2007, 07:06 PM
Hi folks,

I don't believe the word "saved" as we refer to it could have been appropriately said of Job. If you do a word search on "saved" in the OT, you'll find that the salvation of the Jews before Christ was typically a physical deliverance for bondage. The Israelites were "saved" may times when they repented and turned back to God. But here are some verses that could give one a good idea of what Job will face on the day of resurrection:

Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


Since the Bible does not speak of any prophets other than the Messiah coming in the NT, it is sfe to assume that all who came before Christ will be judged based upon their fear of God. Job was without a doubt one who feared God and loved Him. And he defended God to the end, even when his friends were accusing him of some sin that resulted in his tragedies.

In the end, those before Christ had to endure. I personally believe that Yeshua will still stand and intercede on Job's behalf as well, but I don't have any good passages to support that belief.

Dandylionheart
Sep 11th 2007, 07:15 PM
I think that many who came before Christ were walking in Christ

1 Cor. 10:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 07:38 PM
Was Job a Jew? I don't think there is any proof that he was.

Was Abram a Jew?

I would appreciate an answer on what you believe on Job even if you believe it is a silly question. Even a simple yes or no would do.

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 07:53 PM
Hi folks,

I don't believe the word "saved" as we refer to it could have been appropriately said of Job. If you do a word search on "saved" in the OT, you'll find that the salvation of the Jews before Christ was typically a physical deliverance for bondage. The Israelites were "saved" may times when they repented and turned back to God. But here are some verses that could give one a good idea of what Job will face on the day of resurrection:

Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


Since the Bible does not speak of any prophets other than the Messiah coming in the NT, it is sfe to assume that all who came before Christ will be judged based upon their fear of God. Job was without a doubt one who feared God and loved Him. And he defended God to the end, even when his friends were accusing him of some sin that resulted in his tragedies.

In the end, those before Christ had to endure. I personally believe that Yeshua will still stand and intercede on Job's behalf as well, but I don't have any good passages to support that belief.

Kejonn appreciate your response.

For you I will rephrase the question. When did Job put on God's righteousness? Beginning or end of Job. Or do you believe he put on God's righteousness?

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 07:58 PM
Oh, you're correct, I didn't understand the nature of your question :)

I don't know that we can pin-point the 'when' of Job's salvation. We like to make salvation a 'point' on a chronological map, but I don't really think of salvation that way. I think God's grace reaches out to people who are pursuing God. He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. I think Job was seeking God throughout his life, so in my opinion he was saved in Job 1:1. But he came to better understand the nature of his salvation through his trials.

What do you think?

Matthew94 I know where you are comin from, but I am not asking for a specfic time. Just if it was before Chapter 3.

Thank you

Sold Out
Sep 11th 2007, 08:31 PM
[quote=Frances;1378315]On what evidence?

the evidence provided in the scriptures below the statement you quoted


John the Baptist was not considered by Jesus Christ to be a 'Christian' as He said (Matt.11:11) "there has not risen one greater than John the Bapist; but he who is least in the Kindom of Heaven is greater than he."

I think you misunderstand Matthew 11:11...it doesn't state he was not saved...Jesus was simply saying that he was the greatest man born of a woman.

No where in my post was I stating anyone was a greater man born of a woman. Also please note that Job was the greatest Christian 'of his time'....meaning during the time he lived.

kejonn
Sep 11th 2007, 08:38 PM
Kejonn appreciate your response.

For you I will rephrase the question. When did Job put on God's righteousness? Beginning or end of Job. Or do you believe he put on God's righteousness?
TG,

Job was a pure man of God from the beginning of the book!

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Obviously, to turn away from evil showed that he was righteous from the beginning of the story. The remainder of the story of Job was written to show what we all could overcome if we continue to trust in God -- and not on just our "friends" and own self -- to bring us through to the end.

Job reminds me of the Sott Krippayne song "Sometimes He Calms the Storm". In that song, Scott sings "Sometimes He calms the storm, and other times He calms His child". Well, in Job, the storm was raging but Job was brought through it by his trust in God. In this case, God calmed His child.

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 08:40 PM
THE CHARACTER OF JOB



Job was considered by God to be the finest Christian on the face of the earth during his day. Listed below are many fine characteristics of Job. Job was considered to be:
* Perfect (Job 1:1,8 & 2:3) - Job was mature in his obedience
* Upright(Job 1:1,8 & 2:3) - Job did right in public because he was right in private
* One who feared God (Job 1:1,8 & 2:3 & 31:23) - Job obeyed God's Word
* One who eschewed evil (Job 1:1,8 & 2:3) - Job avoided evil (I Thess 5:22)
* One who sanctified his children (Job 1:5) - Job set his children apart for God
* One who offered sacrifices continually (Job 1:5) - Job showed others around him who the SAVIOR was
* One who worshipped (Job 1:20) - Job gave God the glory despite his circumstances
* Humble (Job 1:21 & 13:26 & 31:33) - Job realized his human fraility
* Wise (Job 1:22) - Job did not charge God foolishly despite his circumstances
* A man of integrity (Job 2:3,9-10 & 31:6-8) - Job was always conscious of doing what was right
* A teacher (Job 4:3) - Job took time to teach others
* Strong (Job 4:3) - Job was strong enough to strengthen others
* Encouraging (Job 4:4) - Job encouraged himself so he could encourage others (Josh 1:6)
* A lover of God's Word (Job 23:11-12 & 31:24-28) - Job loved the Word of God more than money or food
* A man of respect (Job 29:7-11,21-25) - Job was looked up to
* A lover of the unlovely (Job 29:12-16 & 31:16-22,32) - Job cared for those for whom no one cared
* One who stood for right (Job 29:17) - Job took an open stand against wrong
* Spiritual (Job 30:25 & 42:7-10) - Job was willing to restore those who had fallen (Gal 6:1)
* A man of character (Job 31:1,9-12) - Job was morally pure
* Honest (Job 31:5,39) - Job took advantage of no one
* One who was not a respector of persons (Job 31:13-23) - Job treated his everyone fairly
* One who was not Worldly (Job 31:24-25) - Job rejected materialism
* One who was true to God (Job 31:26-28) - Job rejected idolatry
* One who was not vengeful (Job 31:29-30) - Job dealt kindly with his enemies)
* Meek (Job 31:29-30) - Job did not take revenge on his enemies (Num 12:1-3)
* A man who stayed right with God (Job 31:33 & 42:1-6) - Job confessed his sins immediately (I Jn 1:9)
* Independent of men (Job 31:34) - Job did not follow the crowd (Exo 23:2)

Sold Out there is a lot of scripture but you havn't pronouced your stand.

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 08:44 PM
I think that many who came before Christ were walking in Christ

1 Cor. 10:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Dandylionheart I like your verses but could I have a commital on Job, one way or the other.

Really appreciated.

Dandylionheart
Sep 11th 2007, 09:08 PM
Hi tgallison
I know according to the scriptures in order to be saved to the kingdom you must be keeping the 10 commandments and be walking in the testimony of Christ. This is more than likely contrary to......Well i guess i should not answer as i really dont know. You might find scripture that says Job was saved before the foundation of the earth. You might find some that he wont be saved till Christ returns. I guess i shouldnt ramble on not knowing the answer to your question.

tgallison
Sep 11th 2007, 09:37 PM
Hi tgallison
I know according to the scriptures in order to be saved to the kingdom you must be keeping the 10 commandments and be walking in the testimony of Christ. This is more than likely contrary to......Well i guess i should not answer as i really dont know. You might find scripture that says Job was saved before the foundation of the earth. You might find some that he wont be saved till Christ returns. I guess i shouldnt ramble on not knowing the answer to your question.

Dandylionheart thank you for replying. The reason I am asking this question, is that it is the key to understanding the Book of Job.

The sum total of the Ten commandments is this, that we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, and with all our mind, and our neighbor as ourself.

I appreciated your contribution, as it was very pertinent. I hope you will contribute in the future.

Brother Mark
Sep 11th 2007, 09:57 PM
In vs. 1, we learn that Job was blameless.

Job 1:1
1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil.
NASB

Therefor, Job was saved. Another place...

Job 1:8
8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

He was the most blameless person on earth. To the point God bragged on him. He was very righteous. I believe he was saved.

When God tested him, he said he did it without cause.

Job 2:2-3
3 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
NASB

And later on, we learn that Job trust in God.

Job 13:15
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
NKJV

And

Naphal
Sep 11th 2007, 11:09 PM
WAS JOB SAVED? DID HE HAVE SALVATION, BEGINNING AT JOB 1:1.

I believe he essentially had salvation from how much God loved and protected him and how faithful he was to God, but then sinned and rebelled against God at the height of his trials which symbolizes a fall from grace and then near the end a repentance made and salvation restored. This happens in every Christians life but not to such a grand extent.

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 02:34 AM
In vs. 1, we learn that Job was blameless.

Job 1:1
1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil.
NASB

I agree with you that he was perfect and upright. God cannot lie.

Therefor, Job was saved. Another place...

The premise that he was, therefore saved, I disagree with. I will state later.

Job 1:8
8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB


He was the most blameless person on earth. To the point God bragged on him. He was very righteous. I believe he was saved.

I agree with you very righteous. Disagree that he was saved.

When God tested him, he said he did it without cause.

Yes but how did the second test come out?

Job 2:2-3
3 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
NASB

And later on, we learn that Job trust in God.

Job definitely had a zeal for God.

Job 13:15
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
NKJV

And

Job 7:21 And why doest thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust: and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

I was always taught that forgiveness of sins was a prerequiste for salvation.

How say you???

Brother Mark
Sep 12th 2007, 02:47 AM
Job 7:21 And why doest thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust: and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

I was always taught that forgiveness of sins was a prerequiste for salvation.

How say you???

As you said above, he was very righteous. There is no righteousness outside of that which is given by God. Blameless also means forgiven.

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 03:20 AM
I believe he essentially had salvation from how much God loved and protected him and how faithful he was to God, but then sinned and rebelled against God at the height of his trials which symbolizes a fall from grace and then near the end a repentance made and salvation restored. This happens in every Christians life but not to such a grand extent.

Gods charges against Job.

Job 40:2

1. Contending with God
2. Instructing God
3. Reproving God

Job 40:8

4. Disannuled God's judgement
5. Condemned God that he might be righteous

Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God?-------------------.

What is the arm of God like?

Isaiah 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations: and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isaiah 53: 1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

Psalm 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword neither did their own arm save them; but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favorer unto them.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

What say ye???

Naphal
Sep 12th 2007, 03:24 AM
Gods charges against Job.

Job 40:2

1. Contending with God
2. Instructing God
3. Reproving God

Job 40:8

4. Disannuled God's judgement
5. Condemned God that he might be righteous

Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God?-------------------.

What is the arm of God like?

Isaiah 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations: and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isaiah 53: 1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

Psalm 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword neither did their own arm save them; but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favorer unto them.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

What say ye???




What?


.................................

matthew94
Sep 12th 2007, 04:33 AM
Matthew94 I know where you are comin from, but I am not asking for a specfic time. Just if it was before Chapter 3.

Thank you

I think he was 'saved' prior to chapter 1. He was obviously a man of faith in God and God was pleased with him. Job, of course, still had weaknesses and areas of ignorance, but I have no reason to believe that he wouldn't have made heaven if he would have died prior to chapter 1.

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 04:53 AM
What?


.................................

Is God talking about salvation when he speaks of his right arm and hand?

Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I see this as a picture of Job. Having a zeal for God but without knowledge.

Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.

Job 35:16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain: he multiplieth words without knowledge.

The very first words that the Lord spoke.
(Though I agree the last 11 chapters are God's words.)

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge.

God's righteousness is what we put on for our salvation.

Why the three friends ceased speaking.

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Elihu's charge against Job.

Job 32:2 ----------against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

God's charge against Job.

Job 40:8 ----------wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

Job13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain my own ways before him.

The first part of this verse is excellent. And then comes the but. I will do it my way. My goodness and I am proud of it. My righteousness.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

I believe Job had to eat these words. Righteousness is good as long as it is God's. We put on God's righteousness, who is the Son of God.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf: and our inquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

What?

Naphal
Sep 12th 2007, 05:11 AM
Is God talking about salvation when he speaks of his right arm and hand?




Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

This is about God's power. Job dared to question God's right to do what he does and God is putting Job in his place by comparing the might, power and righteousness of God to this man who really has no right to argue or complain at all.

Dandylionheart
Sep 12th 2007, 05:24 AM
The sum total of the Ten commandments is this, that we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, and with all our mind, and our neighbor as ourself.


If you think that the 2 great commandments excuse you from keeping Gods 10 (including His sabbath), you are scripturally wrong.

Are you sure you want me to contribute anymore? Have a good day tgallison. May God bless.

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 01:42 PM
If you think that the 2 great commandments excuse you from keeping Gods 10 (including His sabbath), you are scripturally wrong.

Are you sure you want me to contribute anymore? Have a good day tgallison. May God bless.

Dandylionheart

If you love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. You will be keeping the 10 commandments.

Notice in the Great Commandment that the body or flesh is not mentioned.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is not possible that flesh and blood can keep the 10 commandments. For that reason, this body will not enter into heaven. I will be given a new body, a heavenly body.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It is a heart thing, It is spiritual, not of the flesh.

Please contribute more

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 02:18 PM
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

This is about God's power. Job dared to question God's right to do what he does and God is putting Job in his place by comparing the might, power and righteousness of God to this man who really has no right to argue or complain at all.



I am saying that Jesus Christ is the right arm of God, all power was given to him, he created the Heaven and earth. He is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is the salvation of God, He is the wisdom of God, He is God.

No man comes to the Father but by him.

Love in Christ

Naphal
Sep 12th 2007, 04:19 PM
I am saying that Jesus Christ is the right arm of God, all power was given to him, he created the Heaven and earth. He is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is the salvation of God, He is the wisdom of God, He is God.

No man comes to the Father but by him.

Love in Christ

The use of an arm in scripture has many different meanings and implications. While I agree with the above I do not believe the verse in Job is referring to this specifically.

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 09:26 PM
As you said above, he was very righteous. There is no righteousness outside of that which is given by God. Blameless also means forgiven.

Brother Mark I use the kjv and the word there is perfect= tam, tawm; complete;pious;------prim. root; tamam= to complete, in a good or bad sense. + etc. etc. none of which include blameless.

So we can't come to an agreement on this phrase Perfect and upright.

When there is a question on the meaning of a word, we look to other scripture pertaining to it, to try and decipher it.

Issiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine: them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

So is there any other scripture in Job, that ascribes salvation to Job, or salvation put another way, God's righteousness?

Brother Mark
Sep 12th 2007, 09:30 PM
If job wasn't saved, then no one was. He was the most upright in all the world.

Another thought...

God called him his servant. Where is a lost man ever referred to as a servant of God?

Job 1:8
8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

He belongs to God. Is blameless and upright. He fears God. And he turns away from evil.

Compare all that to

Rom 3:12-18
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one. "
13 "Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace have they not known. "
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
NASB

Seeing he was God's servant, he feared God, he was blameless and upright, we cannont call him lost. For He did good, he sought God, he feared God, etc.

tgallison
Sep 12th 2007, 11:09 PM
The use of an arm in scripture has many different meanings and implications. While I agree with the above I do not believe the verse in Job is referring to this specifically.

I see no where in the scripture that the arm of God could be nothing less than Jesus.

Isaiah 40:10 as ruler--------King of the Jews

Isaiah 51:5 as judge--------all judgement is given to Jesus

Isaiah 52:10 as salvation of God.-------Jesus-Saviour

Isaiah 53:1 One of the best pictures of Jesus in the Bible. Arm of the Lord.

I have seven or eight more but I started one reply to you, and it was pretty long. It got zapped or went into computor land, I don't know.
So I changed it.

Naphal
Sep 13th 2007, 12:25 AM
I see no where in the scripture that the arm of God could be nothing less than Jesus.

Isaiah 40:10 as ruler--------King of the Jews

Isaiah 51:5 as judge--------all judgement is given to Jesus

Isaiah 52:10 as salvation of God.-------Jesus-Saviour

Isaiah 53:1 One of the best pictures of Jesus in the Bible. Arm of the Lord.



lol, well you choose ones that would be hard to argue but do you really think Jesus is the symbolism in Job?


Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

I think rather than using Jesus as a symbol, he is using His own power as God in general to compare to a human man who has very little power in comparison.

tgallison
Sep 13th 2007, 12:32 AM
If job wasn't saved, then no one was. He was the most upright in all the world.

Another thought...

God called him his servant. Where is a lost man ever referred to as a servant of God?

Job 1:8
8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

He belongs to God. Is blameless and upright. He fears God. And he turns away from evil.

Compare all that to

Rom 3:12-18
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one. "
13 "Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace have they not known. "
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
NASB

Seeing he was God's servant, he feared God, he was blameless and upright, we cannont call him lost. For He did good, he sought God, he feared God, etc.

Brother Mark

I can't argue that he wasn't upright, I can't argue that he wasn't the most upright.

I can argue that he wasn't saved.

Not by our righteousness, not by our goodness, not by how great we are.
By God's righteousness, by God's goodness, by God's greatness.

It is not about us. It is about God. Its about Jesus. Who is in the Father and the Father in him.

You spoke about Job being a servant of God.

Galations 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son: and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Once were saved, we are no longer a servant, but a son.

I see Job as a picture of Israel.

Romans 9:31-10:4 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence; and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (chapter 10) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to god for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The book of Job is about Job's righteousness, verses God's righteousness.

If you read the above scripture carefully, you will see that Jesus is God's righteousness.

tgallison
Sep 13th 2007, 01:05 AM
lol, well you choose ones that would be hard to argue but do you really think Jesus is the symbolism in Job?


Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

I think rather than using Jesus as a symbol, he is using His own power as God in general to compare to a human man who has very little power in comparison.

But thats my point, Jesus is his power as God. This is Jesus speaking. He is the Word of God. He does the speaking for the Father. All things are given into his hand. He created all things. He is God the Son. Before Abraham was, I am. He was the one that spoke from the bush to Moses.
He created the garden of Eden. Everything was given into his hand. He was going to be manifested in the flesh and be offered up for Job's sins.
And here He is as God, and Job says by my righteousness shall I be justified. And God's says, Job I love you, but he doesn't hear him. Though God speaks to him through dreams and visions in the night.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

Naphal
Sep 13th 2007, 01:40 AM
But thats my point, Jesus is his power as God. This is Jesus speaking. He is the Word of God. He does the speaking for the Father.

I don't believe God solely uses Jesus to speak or that it was Jesus speaking to Job but its not important enough to continue debating IMO. :)

tgallison
Sep 13th 2007, 02:55 PM
I don't believe God solely uses Jesus to speak or that it was Jesus speaking to Job but its not important enough to continue debating IMO. :)

Naphal I do not know what IMO means, can you tell me?

I see God as one God, but I will try to refrain from going in that direction in this thread with you.

I see Saul as a type of Job, before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. I also see Fenris as a type of Job, at least for most of the book. If you asked Fenris if he was upright and keeps the law, I would guess he would say yes. Ask him.

I see the three friends as representing the Gentiles.

You have said that Elihu is speaking for God or something to that effect.
Lets examine what Elihu, or rather God, if he is speaking for God, says in the 33 chapter of Job.

Starting Job 33:9 Paraphrased

Job you have said that your innocent.

That God has declared you an enemy.

That God has put your feet in the stocks.

You are not just.

God spoke to you once, twice, in a dream, in a vision. (Job 7:14)

But you didn't hear or understand.

He does this to withdraw you from your purpose, and hid pride from you.

To keep your soul from the pit, and your life from perishing by the sword.

When dreams and visions are not understood.

You are chastened in your bones with strong pain.

You are so sick you can't eat.

Your soul is near the grave and your life near the destroyers.

If there is a mesenger to show you God's righteousness.

Then by God's grace, you will be delivered from the pit.

God has found a ransom for your life.

You will be as one born again. You will return to the days of your youth.

You will pray unto God, and He will commune with you.

And He will clothe you with his righteousness.

If any man say I have sinned, and perverted that which is right.

He will deliver his soul from the pit. And he shall see Jesus. (Light)

For I have found a ransom.

Naphal
Sep 14th 2007, 08:48 PM
Naphal I do not know what IMO means, can you tell me?

"In my opinion" or IMHO is "in my humble opinion"



I see God as one God, but I will try to refrain from going in that direction in this thread with you.

God is one God but if you want to start a new thread and get into the details I would enjoy that.


I see the three friends as representing the Gentiles.

They were gentiles actually.




You have said that Elihu is speaking for God or something to that effect.
Lets examine what Elihu, or rather God, if he is speaking for God, says in the 33 chapter of Job.

Starting Job 33:9 Paraphrased

Job you have said that your innocent.

That God has declared you an enemy.

That God has put your feet in the stocks.

You are not just.

God spoke to you once, twice, in a dream, in a vision. (Job 7:14)

But you didn't hear or understand.

He does this to withdraw you from your purpose, and hid pride from you.

To keep your soul from the pit, and your life from perishing by the sword.

When dreams and visions are not understood.

You are chastened in your bones with strong pain.

You are so sick you can't eat.

Your soul is near the grave and your life near the destroyers.

If there is a mesenger to show you God's righteousness.

Then by God's grace, you will be delivered from the pit.

God has found a ransom for your life.

You will be as one born again. You will return to the days of your youth.

You will pray unto God, and He will commune with you.

And He will clothe you with his righteousness.

If any man say I have sinned, and perverted that which is right.

He will deliver his soul from the pit. And he shall see Jesus. (Light)

For I have found a ransom.


Ok...there was no commentary so I don't know what you are trying to convey.

tgallison
Sep 15th 2007, 03:12 PM
"In my opinion" or IMHO is "in my humble opinion"

God is one God but if you want to start a new thread and get into the details I would enjoy that.

They were gentiles actually.

Ok...there was no commentary so I don't know what you are trying to convey.


I will do my best on the commentary.

Starting in Job 33 PARAPHRASED

Job you have said you are innocent. Job 16:17 Job 19:7 Job 33:9
That God has declared you and enemy. Job19:11 Job 33:10
That God has put your feet in stocks. Job 19:12 Job 33:11

Elihu speaking. Job you are not innocent.
God has not declared you his enemy. Job 33:12
God has not put your feet in stocks.

If Elihu says Job is not innocent. Elihu must think Job is guilty of something. What does Elihu think Job is guilty of?

Declaring he will stand on his own righteousness. He is blind to God's.

Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God said. Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

The three friends said. Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

A spirit said. Job 4:17 shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker.

Job said. Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

It appears Job is sitting as a king. There is much more to be discussed about this later in another posting.

Job said. Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heartshall not reproach me as long as I live.

Job said "My heart shall not reproach me as long as I live". But that was not so. Job 40:4 Behold I am vile, what shall I answer thee? I will lay my hand upon my mouth.

It would appear in Job 40:4 that Job has left go of his own righteousness.

Romans 10:3:4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Job was earning his way to heaven.

Was the offering of God's Only Begotten Son, a sufficient ransom for all men, or is there some other way.

If there is another way, I would like to hear what it is.

This commentary has only started, it will be continued in another post, but I would appreciate responses in the meantime.

Naphal
Sep 16th 2007, 05:38 AM
It would appear in Job 40:4 that Job has left go of his own righteousness.

I have to admit that I don't always fully follow the intent of your posts but I think you are saying that Job did sin and thought himself as righteous or more righteous than God and this was his sin or part of his sin. Is this correct?

If so, I agree with you. It is very common to hear people speak of the great faith of Job and how loyal he was to God throughout all his trials but that's odd to me because the actual story of Job in the bible doesn't describe that rendition of Job lol Job is a great man and did very well under such pressure but he did falter.

tgallison
Sep 16th 2007, 07:10 PM
I have to admit that I don't always fully follow the intent of your posts but I think you are saying that Job did sin and thought himself as righteous or more righteous than God and this was his sin or part of his sin. Is this correct?

If so, I agree with you. It is very common to hear people speak of the great faith of Job and how loyal he was to God throughout all his trials but that's odd to me because the actual story of Job in the bible doesn't describe that rendition of Job lol Job is a great man and did very well under such pressure but he did falter.


Yes! For 39 chapters Job was a sinner without God's righteousness. I would like to state here, that I believe that Jesus Christ is the fullness of God's righteousness.

Besides Job's rejection of God's righteousness, he was also full of pride, and he was playing with Satan.

Back to Job chapter 33 and Elihu's words. Again I believe God is speaking through Elihu, as he spoke through balaam's donkey. I believe Elihu is a picture of Christ, and Job a picture of Israel.

Job 33:14 (paraphrased) Elihu speaking to Job about what God has said. I spoke to you once, more than once, and you wouldn't hear me.

Job 33:15 (paraphrased) God spoke to you in dreams and visions.

Job 33:17 (paraphrased) To keep the sin of pride from you.

Job 33:18 (paraphrased) To save your soul from being devoured by the King of pride.

Job 33:19-21 He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain. So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.

Whether one agrees or not that Elihu is speaking for God, you can still examine what Elihu has just said.

This is what I understand Elihu has just said.

I spoke to you more than once Job, in dreams and visions, you wouldn't or didn't hear me. I wanted to keep pride from you. I wanted to keep the wicked one from devouring your soul. Now the wicked one is devouring your flesh, and once you die he will have your soul.

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
(I understand "his uprightness" to mean God's righteousness)

Elihu was the messenger. Messenger could also mean witness. Job also asked for a mediator, (Job 9:33-34) one that would not terrify him. Maybe somebody young. Also look at the phrase, one of a thousand, Job 9:2-3.

Job 9:2-3 I know it is so of a truth, but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand. (Job:33-23)

Job asked, how can you be just with God. How would you answer that question? I would answer that, through the righteousness of God. The blood of Jesus Christ.

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

My ransom is Jesus. Who is yours?

What think ye?

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 05:19 AM
Yes! For 39 chapters Job was a sinner without God's righteousness.


Ok, good. I thought so but wasn't sure.


Besides Job's rejection of God's righteousness, he was also full of pride, and he was playing with Satan.

Agreed.



Back to Job chapter 33 and Elihu's words. Again I believe God is speaking through Elihu, as he spoke through balaam's donkey. I believe Elihu is a picture of Christ, and Job a picture of Israel.

Hmmmm...I have always considered Job a picture or type of the elect, especially the end times elect but it works with Israel as well. I agree that Elihu was speaking on behalf of God and was used by God to bring his side into the situation.

Good work.

tgallison
Sep 17th 2007, 12:55 PM
Ok, good. I thought so but wasn't sure.



Agreed.




Hmmmm...I have always considered Job a picture or type of the elect, especially the end times elect but it works with Israel as well. I agree that Elihu was speaking on behalf of God and was used by God to bring his side into the situation.

Good work.


Moving this commentary to a new thread and starting from the beginning of Job.

Appreciate your contribution.

May God be praised.